Author Topic: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - K1 - 17 Nov - Bandaid needed!  (Read 1049837 times)

Offline NuclearStudent

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #315 on: July 02, 2015, 10:31:58 pm »
Yeah, I did the same thing too.  Made a spreadsheet then a cheat sheet.  The Cheatsheet indicated who the weapon would be good for.  ie. High melee, high strength, etc.

Have  you posted said spreadsheet and cheatsheet? If so, where can an aspiring pirate find said sheets? It would be such a nice quality of life improvement not to have to make my own. Thanks!

Offline DracoGriffin

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #316 on: July 02, 2015, 10:44:11 pm »
I'm happy to have found this mod - for something with such silly flavour, the actual game is pretty well balanced. In that spirit I have a few comments

There  are a hell of a lot of items. Particularly weapons. Which isn't necessarily bad, but is bewildering at first. Even with the numbers available it's hard to tell what's actually likely to work well. Bootypedia should probably list item weights and stamina costs to make it a bit easier. And there's no way to know what can get upgraded with better ammo and the like later.
Yeah, I ended up making a spreadsheet, which is asking a lot of (new) players, but the differences aren't really that significant that I've found.

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Research is just weird in places. Apart from the vast number of items the dependencies are complicated enough that it's really hard to tell what they are even after satisfying them. And the way you can make and use grog from the start, but it takes research to find out what it does. Or the stone axe, which you learn to make but doesn't get a bootypedia entry.
Yeah, some things are weird but the tone of the mod makes it believable in most cases (you ARE supposed to be a ragtag band of mutant pirates that discovered a laboratory; building from that). Haven't gotten Stone Axe, but that sounds like a bug. It is very overwhelming for new players.

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Manufacture has the annoyance of needing readily available metal, chemicals, and wire. While this makes sense, it's kind of meaningless given that they're only a 24 hour order away. Why not get rid of that management task and just add to the manufacture cost? Limited resources are worth managing, but those aren't. I also have no idea why extracting craft weapon rounds from magazines is a workshop task rather than a transparent part of re-arming the craft.
I am on the fence here. First couple months space was really tight, so I only bought scrap, chemicals, etc when I had to for manufactures. Maybe an early unlock to manufacture your own scraps/chems/etc to circumvent need to buy from Black Market, but moving towards self-sustaining feels against the spirit of the mod. Pretty sure you had to research to unlock those manufactures, which makes sense why you have to extract.

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On craft weapons, I have no idea what I can use where. It's certainly not anything anywhere, but nothing seems to tell me what the limitations are.
Bootypedia solves this. Aircraft state weapon slots: "YxLT, ZxHV, AxMS"; and armament entries state their size: "Class: Light, Class: Heavy, Class: Missile". Only thing I didn't get was why Spike Rockets are "Heavy" and Seagulls are "Missile", but why wouldn't Spike Rockets be able to fulfill a Missile slot?

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Specific weapons: bows are probably too powerful. Ammo-free 90% throwing accuracy indirect fire at 25 tiles, with damage in the 40s for a skilled swabbie? That just seems unfair, if super fun. They seem to train firing accuracy though, which is rather bizarre. Poisoned dagger is frustratingly inaccurate compared to other daggers.
Yeah. X-Bow gets outclassed quickly. Spear is the melee version of the bow, super high accuracy, and very good damage. Although not as great as Bows, Fuso Knives are really underrated. Accuracy/damage scale even better than Bows.

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Night vision is a neat idea, giving you the choice between the safety of playing in darkness or the convenience of lights. Except playing in the dark seems pretty much impossible and switching lights is free, so I end up switching them off and on all the time. Which is just daft.
Yeah. I had some questions about that and still do. From my experience, playing with lights off (especially on Night missions) is an effort in futility of constantly switching on/off to see where I'm moving, terrain, etc, but never noticed any real difference. Sneaky AI on - still somehow stays away from player, Sneaky AI off - still somehow knows where my units are. Although the NV modifier does work (letting my Night Ops scouts to see enemy to pick off with my snipers) but the light mechanism doesn't seem to do anything.

Easiest way to test is through the Battle Mode - 4 tests: 2 Night missions (with Sneaky AI on, other off), 2 Day Missions (Sneaky AI on, other off). And generally if you keep the map settings same, enemy should spawn in similar locations.

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #317 on: July 03, 2015, 02:00:18 am »
Have  you posted said spreadsheet and cheatsheet? If so, where can an aspiring pirate find said sheets? It would be such a nice quality of life improvement not to have to make my own. Thanks!

I can post the one I have, but its out of date now, as I never upgraded to extended.  Let me know if you'd like it. :)

Offline NuclearStudent

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #318 on: July 03, 2015, 08:02:40 am »
Yeah, I ended up making a spreadsheet, which is asking a lot of (new) players, but the differences aren't really that significant that I've found.
Yeah, some things are weird but the tone of the mod makes it believable in most cases (you ARE supposed to be a ragtag band of mutant pirates that discovered a laboratory; building from that). Haven't gotten Stone Axe, but that sounds like a bug. It is very overwhelming for new players.
I am on the fence here. First couple months space was really tight, so I only bought scrap, chemicals, etc when I had to for manufactures. Maybe an early unlock to manufacture your own scraps/chems/etc to circumvent need to buy from Black Market, but moving towards self-sustaining feels against the spirit of the mod. Pretty sure you had to research to unlock those manufactures, which makes sense why you have to extract.
 Bootypedia solves this. Aircraft state weapon slots: "YxLT, ZxHV, AxMS"; and armament entries state their size: "Class: Light, Class: Heavy, Class: Missile". Only thing I didn't get was why Spike Rockets are "Heavy" and Seagulls are "Missile", but why wouldn't Spike Rockets be able to fulfill a Missile slot?
Yeah. X-Bow gets outclassed quickly. Spear is the melee version of the bow, super high accuracy, and very good damage. Although not as great as Bows, Fuso Knives are really underrated. Accuracy/damage scale even better than Bows.
 Yeah. I had some questions about that and still do. From my experience, playing with lights off (especially on Night missions) is an effort in futility of constantly switching on/off to see where I'm moving, terrain, etc, but never noticed any real difference. Sneaky AI on - still somehow stays away from player, Sneaky AI off - still somehow knows where my units are. Although the NV modifier does work (letting my Night Ops scouts to see enemy to pick off with my snipers) but the light mechanism doesn't seem to do anything.

Easiest way to test is through the Battle Mode - 4 tests: 2 Night missions (with Sneaky AI on, other off), 2 Day Missions (Sneaky AI on, other off). And generally if you keep the map settings same, enemy should spawn in similar locations.

If you keep flipping your lights on, the AI should know your location at all times. Even when you turn your lights back off, the AI should know your location perfectly for the following number of turns dictated by their intelligence value. They can, for example, grenade you through the darkness if you gave away your position by flicking your lights on and off. Or should be able to.

Offline NuclearStudent

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #319 on: July 03, 2015, 08:04:23 am »
I can post the one I have, but its out of date now, as I never upgraded to extended.  Let me know if you'd like it. :)


Would still be interested. Be interested in seeing how you formatted it for the least.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #320 on: July 03, 2015, 10:26:07 am »
And there's no way to know what can get upgraded with better ammo and the like later. Research is just weird in places. Apart from the vast number of items the dependencies are complicated enough that it's really hard to tell what they are even after satisfying them.

That's half the fun.


And the way you can make and use grog from the start, but it takes research to find out what it does. Or the stone axe, which you learn to make but doesn't get a bootypedia entry.

You can use and even manufacture many items before researching them. Yes. But it doesn't mean researching them is pointless. Sometimes it's an engine limitation, as with the stone axe (and more importantly, Dynamite): it cannot be made so that you can research an item while finding it, while at the same time that item being unlocked through another research (unless through 'give 1 random advance from the list... which is the case with interrogations). Hence you have to manufacture -> research.

Manufacture has the annoyance of needing readily available metal, chemicals, and wire. While this makes sense, it's kind of meaningless given that they're only a 24 hour order away. Why not get rid of that management task and just add to the manufacture cost? Limited resources are worth managing, but those aren't.

Because you can loot them from enemy or get them through disassembly. Also it puts a solid limitation on those who don't use the storage limits. Thirdly, it's simply realistic. Ever ran any kind of enterprise? Sure flour is readily available on the market but you still need to order it to make bread. It forces you to focus while requiring a minimal amount of effort, while rewarding those who focus. My only regret is that the prices are flat, non-fluctuating.

I also have no idea why extracting craft weapon rounds from magazines is a workshop task rather than a transparent part of re-arming the craft.

Because research. But this indeed might be a bit overcomplicated. Then again, it provides you with a greater hands-on feeling; you don't get info on that trophy on the debrief screen, you can at least enjoy the trophy through the workshop.

They seem to train firing accuracy though, which is rather bizarre.

Because I can't do anything about that. Ranged weapons train Firing, explosives train Throwing.

They can, for example, grenade you through the darkness if you gave away your position by flicking your lights on and off. Or should be able to.

This was deemed 2 hardcore for OXCom; enemies cannot attack from beyond their LoS. Still, it holds true in the sense they will walk up to their LoS range and THEN grenade you. You're indeed giving your positions  away by flipping the lights.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 10:50:49 am by Dioxine »

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #321 on: July 03, 2015, 07:36:16 pm »
Would still be interested. Be interested in seeing how you formatted it for the least.

@NuclearStudent:
I posted my old cheatsheets in the old version thread here: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,1898.msg47447.html#msg47447

Cheers, Ivan :D

Offline DracoGriffin

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #322 on: July 03, 2015, 09:28:38 pm »
If you keep flipping your lights on, the AI should know your location at all times. Even when you turn your lights back off, the AI should know your location perfectly for the following number of turns dictated by their intelligence value. They can, for example, grenade you through the darkness if you gave away your position by flicking your lights on and off. Or should be able to.

Yeah, I wasn't explaining myself clearly. This is how I've tested the personal flashlights after noticing it wasn't seeming to do anything during regular gameplay.

Spoiler:
Start oXCOM; set Sneaky AI to on/off based on test; restart oXCOM; set up mission and perform test.

Mission Settings used for each test, Sneaky AI setting was switched then oXCOM restarted ("just in case"):
Mission: Cutter
Vessel: Bonaventura
Darkness at full (slider all the way right)
Terrain: farm
Difficulty: Jack Sparrow
Race: The Academy
Tech Level: (doesn't work for me, so I didn't touch it)
Soldiers: Default, didn't change anything.

Test #1 -> Battle Mode -> Day -> Sneaky AI on, flash lights on. (Mostly to learn positions of enemies)
Test #2 -> Battle Mode -> Day -> Sneaky AI off, flash lights on. (Just to note any differences, enemies more "confronting")
Test #3 -> Battle Mode -> Day -> Sneaky AI on, flash lights off. (didn't seem to make a difference, as expected (kind of like a control for experiment)
Test #4 -> Battle Mode -> Day -> Sneaky AI off, flash lights off. (another control, results very similar to test #2, as expected)
Test #5 -> Battle Mode -> Night -> Sneaky AI on, flash lights off. (Using tests #1-4 as basis for knowing the map/terrain comfortably and enemy positions well enough, results are awfully similar to test #1,3. Flash lights were immediately turned off, and never flipped on/off at any time. Highly recommend screenshots or 2nd openXCOM with same settings with light on to be able to actually know where you are going.)
Test #6 -> Battle Mode -> Night -> Sneaky AI off, flash lights off. (Results similar to test #2,4 - AI didn't seem affected by lights off. NV DOES work [allowing Gals with NV > 9 to spot enemies father, but those NV =< 9 could trigger reactions.)
Test #7 -> Battle Mode -> Night -> Sneaky AI on, flash lights on. (Just for posterity, results similar to tests #1,3,5.)
Test #8 -> Battle Mode -> Night -> Sneaky AI off, flash lights off. (Again for posterity, results similar to tests #2,4,6.)

Night Vision mechanism works great, but perhaps I am just totally misunderstanding the personal flashlights thing. It doesn't seem to "do" anything other than purely aesthetic/cosmetic/visual means and/or overthinking what the flashlights are supposed to be doing.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #323 on: July 03, 2015, 10:17:09 pm »
A couple of answers for the stuff I've missed...

Wow, Reaction Disrupt is way more powerful than I thought. I need to start trying that against stronger enemies so they won't be able to attack while I mop up the weaker enemies. So does "Reaction Disrupt (x4)" mean it drains TU by (X damage)*4?

Yes, exactly. Not as powerful as it was intended, since retaliation to melee attacks has been disabled by the dev team. And you still need to hurt them (although the spear should be able to pierce a power armor from behind).

But as such, some big ships are easy prey, but not all... and small ships can be a EXTREMELY misleading in strength. If you were shooting for uncertainty prior to decoder, you've managed it very well.

Or he just set interception speed to low and immediately disengaged when started to get heavy fire. With this tactic, it is very hard to lose a ship unless you really push it.

Perhaps an initial Bootypedia entry (like Combat 101) with like a "Brainer Report" that gives vague beginner insight to some of the first techs.

I'll think about it, and I will base it on your text if it gets into the mod :) I'll add Grog and Plastasteel to the list too, possibly also Slave AI and Ship Engine, so the player isn't suddenly trapped in expensive research... or organize it somehow else, ex. you can research these for cheap but to get further tech you need to finish a follow up project (with a forewarning that it is expensive; both together would add up to the current singular cost). Especially important for HWD as it can be unlocked early and costs hell of a lot to research. But this would mean less reason to celebrate if you hit the Ship Engine using a data disc...

As for the chainsaw, I'm not sure. Depends if you get xp for each hit in autoshot mode; if you do, you will get them for chainsaw attacks too.

Also I'm removing the confusing X-section from armor descriptions. Any armor with X-Section different than 2 is described as small/large/x-large/huge target.

Also a question: should I replace the current Chemicals barrel with this one? It will look worse as floorob I think, though.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 11:40:16 pm by Dioxine »

Offline NuclearStudent

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #324 on: July 04, 2015, 12:25:02 am »
@NuclearStudent:
I posted my old cheatsheets in the old version thread here: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,1898.msg47447.html#msg47447

Cheers, Ivan :D

Thanks! Out of date indeed but got me thinking. On a related note, do you or anybody have a list of squad loadouts/fireteam organizations you like to use?

An idea I'm toying with is making a list like this (NuXCOM build list https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1REN2q21hLugBeoVfthNapQE7qp58IztZekdT8hnsdfw/edit#gid=83878175). But with a further level of subdivision of CREW-->SQUAD--> FIRETEAMS--> Individual troopers.

Basically, bringing discipline to messy pirate crews. Plan as follows.



Divide the crew into SQUADS. Alpha SQUAD walks out the front. Bravo SQUAD drops down the hatch. Each team should be self sufficient in terms of antiarmor capability, ranged fighting capability, mid-range grenadiers, etc..


Each personnel is labelled and classified according to their capabilities. Common sense stuff.

 A STR is a stormtrooper. Heavy armor, does scouting, digs in and holds ground, leads in to take reaction fire. We all have something like them. High health is a must. I like to have the frontline tanks strong and with heavy anti-armor weapons (eg. hammers) with various explosives so they engage in mid-range frontline combat and skirmishes. 


 A CAV for me is a cavalry type unit. They go in with rapiers or whatever and charge in after reaction fire is taken. May carry sidearms (eg. sawed off shotgun) to clean up hard.

A FLA deals with shitty situations. She has the flamethrower as well as the highest casualty rate in my squad. She doesn't have good armor because I'm poor and choose to put the armor on the midrange skirmishing stormtroopers.

A NJA uses the Fuso knives. High throwing accuracy and reactions. In Extended, the Fuso knives do 60% of throwing accuracy in damage. And accuracy is almost perfect. Guaranteed 60-something damage hits from range are a godsend. Absolutely lethal in close quarter combat and smoke ops. Cleans up targets, executes soft humans, and serves as anti-armor troopers (hence reactions).

A BD is Backline Designation. For my bowmen, my assault cannonaders, and musketmen. Yes, I use musketmen. What else do I do with a rookie that can't hit, throw, or evade reaction fire, but has a good eye for shooting?

The five classifications above make up the real combat effective fireteams.  I have more but they don't matter as much.

The Alpha-Bravo team separation breaks up almost immediately. The Alpha-Bravo team separation only lasts long enough for the disembarkment to be secure.

Fireteams generally consist of CAValry, NiJnAs, and a specialized class (eg. a grenade-spec medic) following the lead of a SToRmtrooper.  When necessary, the CAV detach from the team to go clean up dangerous threats that arrive. Often, the specialists in each fireteam detach and form a special team (often special anti-armor teams, or EVAC body carriers)

I'm sure there's something important I'm not doing-(hence why I'm looking at spreadsheets.)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 12:38:32 am by NuclearStudent »

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #325 on: July 04, 2015, 12:59:22 am »
The only squad I'd add to that is the Support Squad.  This is your long range fire-team.  Snipers from the roof of the bonny in SmokeOps gear, smoked in, with the heaviest rigs they can support, and one or two loaders who keep them supplied with rounds.   This could be "Charlie" in your designation.

Offline DracoGriffin

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #326 on: July 04, 2015, 01:00:04 am »
@Dioxine, what's the other version look like? Not sure what to compare it to, but it's not... bad, but not great either. Would that be for maps or Bootypedia or both?

edit: Anyone know how to make a neat-o X-Piratez version of the Country Zones for the World Map like this that's accurate? https://www.ufopaedia.org/images/c/ca/WorldMap_CountryZones_Ufo.png
Obviously instead of Russia, Brazil, etc... it would be Death Realms, Fuso, Hidden Expanse, etc.
I wish it was as simple as just renaming the countries but pretty sure Dioxine has totally different country boundaries.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 01:27:47 am by DracoGriffin »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #327 on: July 04, 2015, 05:43:24 am »
@Dioxine, what's the other version look like? Not sure what to compare it to, but it's not... bad, but not great either. Would that be for maps or Bootypedia or both?

edit: Anyone know how to make a neat-o X-Piratez version of the Country Zones for the World Map like this that's accurate? https://www.ufopaedia.org/images/c/ca/WorldMap_CountryZones_Ufo.png
Obviously instead of Russia, Brazil, etc... it would be Death Realms, Fuso, Hidden Expanse, etc.
I wish it was as simple as just renaming the countries but pretty sure Dioxine has totally different country boundaries.

1. Chemicals in Pedia entry. Not sure if both ground and bigob.

2. Push ctrl+D while on Geoscape with enabled Debug Mode. I think the first push reveals zones or sth, but after some ctrl+D's you'll see countries. My map could be bugged, too (not sure if all of the old territories are properly deleted, ex. Alaska), but all the new countries are good (there are more countries than in vanilla).

As for the combat setup - wow, someone is actually using knives :) In general though, I follow similar squad breakdown, if simpler - artillery, riflemen, skirmishers, scouts. Scouts are useless troops with light firearms. First order of battle is melee. If impossible/risky (which is very often), use molotov/black powder sandwich. If too far/too tough, use dynamite. Before that, pelt them with small arms fire - some enemies will die, all pirates will train accuracy. Artillery is kept for especially resistant cases (artillery = snipers, RPG, Grenade Launcher, heavy automatic weapons). Once these actions enable melee, go for it. If not, keep shooting.

The roles aren't set - everyone's got some sort of gun. It is not uncommon for skirmishers to stand and pelt the enemy with their pistols if charging is too risky and explosives unneeded. Troopers help artillery with aimed shots if they can't do anything better. The basic order is - never fire if the enemy can fire back. Usual breakdown - the more experienced the squad, the less riflemen & scouts, the more artillery and skirmishers (who also carry enough stuff to be versatile).

But this is actually one of many possible solutions. Sometimes I'm reinforcing the first line with low-range, high-acc hard hitters, like CAWS or Flamer. Those are very useful during boarding actions.

As for the squads, I'm usually scouring the field with 3-4 people squads, definitely with varied weapons so they can deal with anything. Letting a single soldier to go anywhere is plain suicide. So is late-turn scouting.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 05:59:36 am by Dioxine »

Offline NuclearStudent

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #328 on: July 04, 2015, 10:15:08 am »
Dioxine, your combat doctrine interests me. Particularly because nobody seems to play as intended ;D


Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #329 on: July 04, 2015, 11:39:22 am »
Dioxine, your combat doctrine interests me. Particularly because nobody seems to play as intended ;D

Intended? :)
"No, Mr. Bond, I intend you to die!" :)