Author Topic: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J17A - 8 Sep - I Stab At Thee!!! (reloaded)  (Read 1019748 times)

Offline Zharkov

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Liber Occultis?
« Reply #330 on: July 04, 2015, 05:46:47 pm »
I have been thinking about the liber occultis. Is it a typo? Shouldn't occultus be in nominativ or genetiv? Futhermore, it doesn't do anything and isn't even researchable... this cannot be right, right?

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Liber Occultis?
« Reply #331 on: July 04, 2015, 06:10:36 pm »
I have been thinking about the liber occultis. Is it a typo? Shouldn't occultus be in nominativ or genetiv? Futhermore, it doesn't do anything and isn't even researchable... this cannot be right, right?

I don't know Latin and that's how Lovecraft named such books... It was meant to be researchable but I have no idea yet what exactly to do with it (probably has something to do with the Dark Ones?) - I don't want to waste it for a mere easter egg, I want something cool. Any good, or at least awesome, ideas would be appreciated :)

Offline DracoGriffin

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #332 on: July 04, 2015, 10:28:57 pm »
Here are some more reports (spoilered for length and ... spoilers, also entries with * are from Debug Mode review/testing):

Spoiler:
  • Gameplay Balance
     
    • Items
       
      • Seagull Missiles - Purchase Price - very expensive; 300k for 6, and Hunter-Killer can hold up to 12 (if both missile slots are Seagull Launchers). Without missiles, Hunter-Killer plays a weaker interceptor role to the Bonaventura (if able to catch target speed). In addition, high risk of damage (due to short range of early game cannons, lack of mid-/long-range LT weapon mounts) and risk of being destroyed (from re-deploying mid-repair) from constant engagements (randomness factor considering). Booty from downed shippings isn't always enough to offset the cost of expended missiles (considering if Slave AIs, Nuclear Fuel, Ship Engines, live captures, etc., were salvaged). Suggestion: Lower to 35k a unit (210k for 6), which is still more than double the cost of Spike Rockets [16k a unit].

    • Mechanics
       
      • Govt Shippings - Shipping Interception - Some Govt shippings do not use the "special" red/blue light identification in the View Shipping screen during Shipping Interception [dogfighting pop-up]. Somewhat annoying to engage ship (wasting armament munitions, nuclear fuel, risk of damage/repairs), perform crash recovery and discover Govt units. However, could be considered part of the "experience". Can't remember if pre-placed dead Govt units count against player score or not if Retreat [Dust Off] is performed prior to player killing/stunning any Govt units. Are unmarked Govt shippings intended? See screenshot: UndercoverGovtShip - EDIT: Changed name to LookItsAShip so doesn't spoiler for other players.
           
        • Further: It appears in limited testing that downing Govt shippings increases player score (maybe only specific Govt shippings?) but performing crash recovery then decreases said score (especially noticeable if player does not kill/stun Govt units by Retreating [Dust Off] upon arrival. Similar to landing at a Mutant Pogrom site but Retreating on Turn 1 to offset the negative score of ignoring a Mutant Pogrom completely.) Intended?

      • Slavery - Govt Agents, Military Police & Pilots are unable to be enslaved. Assuming from the SLAVE Bootypedia entry, are "Govt Agents" to be considered "high government officials"? However, military police should be able to become SLAVEs, if not SLAVE LASHERs. Pilots should qualify for SLAVE MAID, perhaps even SLAVE SPECIALIST/TASKMASTER based on their Bootypedia entry.

  • Spelling
     
    • * Ancient Log 1785-72 - Bootypedia entry - “... threat to planet's true masters.” -> should be “... threat to the planet's true masters.”
       
    • Autogun - Bootypedia entry - “... A blend between a rifle and a machinegun, allows to take Snap and Aimed shots as well, but isn't very good at this.” Disjarring. Suggestion: “Selective fire allows for single shots, but the complex mechanics involved reduce the expected accuracy.”
       
    • * Baracuda - Bootypedia entry - “... two integral maneuvring engines ...” -> should be “two integral maneuvering engines ...”. Also, Baracuda name should be spelled Barracuda, unless intentional?
       
    • Bonaventura - Bootypedia entry - "If it's done for, so you are." -> should be "If it's done for, so are you." Constantly mentally read it as "so are you" before realizing it was read as "so you are".
       
    • * Brave Whaler - Bootypedia entry - “... to ensure a kill .” -> should be “... to ensure a kill.” Simply has an extra space between kill and period.
       
    • Chainsaw Good - Research Topic - Placeholder name for research project? Unlocks "Ripper" item. Suggestion: Chainsaw Dagger/Mini[aturized] Chainsaw. See Chainsaw Good Manufacture below.
       
    • * Crab - Bootypedia entry - "Equipped with the outer, ablative hull it can take heavy punishment, while the modular design ensures the easiness of repair." Disjarring. Suggestion: “The outer, ablative hull can tolerate heavy punishment, and the modular design allows for effortless repair.”
       
    • * Dragon - Bootypedia entry - "... vessel tougher than that which still could fit our hangars." Disjarring. Suggestion: “... vessel tougher and still manage to fit within our hangars.”
       
    • Life Support System - Bootypedia entry - "... towards enviro-sealed suits and vessels" -> should be "... towards enviro-sealed suits and vessels." Simply it's missing a period at the end of the sentence.
       
    • SLAVE - Bootypedia entry - "... civilians or high goverment officials, ..." -> should be "... civilians or high government officials, ...". Suggestion: "... civilians or high-level government officials, ...".
       
    • Spitfire - Bootypedia entry - "A two-barreled area supression ..." -> should be "A two-barreled area suppression ...". Suggestion: "A double-barrelled area suppression ...".

  • Miscellaneous
     
    • 25mm Rounds (x50) - Multiple - listed incorrectly (not under 25mm Cannon) on Vaults/Fencing screens, but listed correctly (under 25mm Cannon) on Black Market screen.
       
    • AR / BR Clips - Manufacture - Unspecific mechanism unlocked these manufacturables. Never received the Manufacture "We can now produce:" information pop-up.
       
      • Further: Looks like it unlocked after I had finished interrogating Spartan Rifleman, for the "free" Bootypedia weapon unlocks. Rifle Bullet Manufacturing had been researched prior. Researching Assault Rifle/Battle Rifle topics will prompt the Manufacture "We can now produce:" information pop-up, but only if researched directly as interrogation weapon unlocks do not seem to prompt the Manufacture "We can now produce:" information pop-up.
        • If aforementioned weapon is an active (regardless of assigned Brainers) research topic, it can be researched which will not prompt the Bootypedia weapon entry, but will prompt the Manufacture "We can now produce:" information pop-up, despite being able to manufacture prior to the specific weapon research topic. Untested: not sure if points are received in this method, or if even X-Piratez grants points via completed research projects like oXCOM/vanilla XCOM.
        • However, if the weapon was an inactive research topic (e.g., listed in the New Project screen, not on the Current Research screen) prior to unlock through interrogation, it will no longer be in the New Project list; thus, no Manufacture "We can now produce:" information pop-up will ever notify the player. Untested: whether the weapon is "returned" [as researching an item will "consume" one unit initially] through this method.
        • Savefile available upon request.
       
    • Bonaventura Ramp - Pathing/Map - Ramp broken on jungle map; soldiers were not able to move onto tile. See screenshot: BrokenRamp. (Sorry, overwrote the savefile before I was able to back it up for bug report purposes.) [note: you can see soldier going long way, as the tile northwest of cursor [phonebooth] was not able to be selected for movement for soldiers.]
       
    • Chainsaw Good Manufacture - Manufacture - Does not prompt Manufacture pop-up stating able to produce "Rippers"; does prompt Bootypedia weapon entry. See Chainsaw Good above.
       
    • Flamethrower - Line of Fire - Unable to use "Override Line of Fire" mechanism. Simply will not perform action (does not use TUs, ammo, energy, etc.). Untested: other weapons using similar firing mechanic like Flamethrow may have similar issue. May be "unfixable" from engine restrictions?
       
    • Negative scores - Charts - Sufficient negative score begins to distort future month scores. May be "unfixable" from engine restrictions? See screenshots: ChartGlitch_InvalidScore, ChartGlitch_ActualScore.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 10:31:08 pm by DracoGriffin »

Offline Zharkov

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Re: Liber Occultis?
« Reply #333 on: July 04, 2015, 10:41:14 pm »
I don't know Latin and that's how Lovecraft named such books... It was meant to be researchable but I have no idea yet what exactly to do with it (probably has something to do with the Dark Ones?) - I don't want to waste it for a mere easter egg, I want something cool. Any good, or at least awesome, ideas would be appreciated :)

The good news is, it worked - the first thing I thought of, when I found the book, was the Necronomicon. Still, I would rename it to Liber Occulti, Liber Occultorum, or Liber Occultus - and I should know, because I had to cheat myself throughout years of latin classes! Liber Occultis would mean book for secret or something; doesn't make any sense.

I was thinking about making it an ingredient for having the runts summon your very own demon hwp - the other ingredients being slaves, of course.



Offline Searmay

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #334 on: July 04, 2015, 10:52:39 pm »
Quote
Aircraft state weapon slots: "YxLT, ZxHV, AxMS"; and armament entries state their size: "Class: Light, Class: Heavy, Class: Missile".
Oh, thanks. I didn't notice that at all.

Quote
Spear is the melee version of the bow,
Is it significantly better than the rapier or cutlass? It's more accurate, but once you go over 100% that doesn't help. Armour penetration and reaction distruption are useful, but taking nearly twice as long to use is less so.

Quote
Hence you have to manufacture -> research.
That's really not obvious. Maybe hint that's actually possible somewhere? Because I was never likely to build a stone axe otherwise.

Quote
Thirdly, it's simply realistic.
I don't know about involking realism when you're lumping together most of your raw materials as "scrap metal" and "chemicals". Besides, realistically I'd want to delegate menial tasks like that. The extra hassle without storage limits hadn't occured to me, but as it is it's never felt like a meaningful limitation, just a frustration.

Quote
Ranged weapons train Firing, explosives train Throwing.
Pity. Though I wonder - does a black powder bomb work like an instant grenade, or a one-shot HE round? It's described as an "aimed shot" after all. Likewise chainsaw and friends are short "ranged" weapons as far as the game is concerned, aren't they?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 10:55:35 pm by Searmay »

Offline DracoGriffin

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #335 on: July 04, 2015, 11:41:30 pm »
Is it significantly better than the rapier or cutlass? It's more accurate, but once you go over 100% that doesn't help. Armour penetration and reaction distruption are useful, but taking nearly twice as long to use is less so.

Using Max Gal Stats (ignoring armor modifications, injuries, etc):
Rapier - 20 base damage (cutting), 100% accuracy modifier, 9 TUs, MELEE*0.4 Power bonus - Estimated Hit % = 140, Est. Average Damage = 76
Cutlass - 30 base dmg (cutting), 90% acc. mod., 10 TUs, STR*0.5+MELEE*0.2 Pwr bonus - Est. Hit % = 126, Est. Avg. Dmg = 98
Spear - 30 base dmg (piercing), 120% acc. mod., 16 TUs, MELEE*0.2+THROW*0.2 Pwr bonus - Est. Hit % = 168, Est. Avg. Dmg = 84

Assuming all equations are correct.

I believe cutting tends to be a more common resistance for enemies, whereas inversely most have either no resistance or may have a vulnerability to piercing. (By no resistance, I mean 100% aka "normal" modifier.)
Spear is two-handed, so if other hand is occupied the hit % will be lower, but due to the high acc % nature, it generally is still very high.
Also keep in mind that rapiers/cutlasses have to overcome armor and if target isn't dead, deal with retaliation (or reactions if Dioxine alters reactions with extended oXCOM option to allow other actions to trigger reactions, notably melee. Currently, once in melee range, melee attacks should not trigger reactions. The extended oXCOM reactions change would allow melee attacks to trigger reactions, allowing for much riskier melee engagements with targets, as well as "swashbuckling" - trading melee attacks sounds cool!).
Spear may actually result in "more" damage (that is, consistently), as it can ignore 20% of a target's armor, not to mention helpful for rookie training with the 120% accuracy modifier, as well as draining target's TUs for reactions (not sure if it affects TUs on enemy turn at all?).

In the end, each is HIGHLY dependent on the Gal's stats. If anything, Spear should not be given to low TU Gals due to the non-scaling attack cost.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 11:44:11 pm by DracoGriffin »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #336 on: July 05, 2015, 07:06:27 pm »
I believe cutting tends to be a more common resistance for enemies, whereas inversely most have either no resistance or may have a vulnerability to piercing. (By no resistance, I mean 100% aka "normal" modifier.)

It is the other way around. Piercing res is quite common (ex. Mercs, light personal armors), cutting res is uncommon (mostly tanks).

As for your equations, natural Strength can go up to 80, but you can get up to +35 from armor and up to +20 (I think?) Melee Acc from armor too.

That's really not obvious. Maybe hint that's actually possible somewhere? Because I was never likely to build a stone axe otherwise.
I don't know about involking realism when you're lumping together most of your raw materials as "scrap metal" and "chemicals". Besides, realistically I'd want to delegate menial tasks like that. The extra hassle without storage limits hadn't occured to me, but as it is it's never felt like a meaningful limitation, just a frustration.

1. This is actually a help for experienced players - stone axe is a preq to something, it can be found early, but it might not be. Hence you can at some point simply manufacture it.

2. This is not a "limitation". Never meant to be. This is giving the player better immersion, feeling of control, and things to do (if you run a business like a ship's captain, you expect you'll be buying stuff by direct order - this fulfills this expectation). Streamlining might lead to boredom. Might be a hassle but sometimes, better hassle than blandness. Plus like I said, if it was just money, loot would be just money as well, which would be bland as hell. Naturally, your mileage may vary - I've never said I'm making a mod for everyone. The main aim is providing basically the same game as XCom, but a fresh experience at the same time.

@Draco: I will adress these issues you've listed once I have the time (most are valid, but a couple of them are engine limitations, or shortcuts; the score charts require investigation). Many thanks for your hard work!
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 07:25:33 pm by Dioxine »

Offline Searmay

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #337 on: July 05, 2015, 08:01:53 pm »
Quote
This is actually a help for experienced players
I see it the other way around, as a "gotcha" for new players. Who I'd have thought are more in need of extra help than veterans.

Quote
This is giving the player better immersion, feeling of control, and things to do
All I can tell you is that it doesn't work for me at all.

Offline SIMON

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #338 on: July 05, 2015, 08:38:44 pm »
Dioxine, can you tell me regarding the tanks in piratez, if they reaction fire is it always from their primary gun or can you have them like troops choose which weapon is showing in their hand(s) and hence reaction fire from that one. It's just I noticed my crocodile tank seems to always reaction fire the flamethrower and I would rather have it reaction fire with the HMG.

Offline DracoGriffin

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #339 on: July 05, 2015, 09:04:15 pm »
I see it the other way around, as a "gotcha" for new players. Who I'd have thought are more in need of extra help than veterans.

I think you two are different wavelengths. I believe Dioxine is trying to explain that Stone Hatchet can be "found early" on [certain] enemies (as "loot"), which would allow the player to research the Stone Hatchet (without needing the pre-reqs) for the next unlock (if Primitive Weapons/Minecraft hasn't already been researched).

However, for you as a player, you haven't encountered these enemies so it's strange to be able to manufacture an item that you still have to research to get its Bootypedia entry.

And with the way research tends to work (to my knowledge, someone can totally correct me here), getting the Bootypedia entry without researching Stone Hatchet would already unlock the next step without requiring researching Stone Hatchet, maybe?

But I could be totally wrong about all of the above.

Quote
All I can tell you is that it doesn't work for me at all.
I'm on the fence; one hand is really annoying to play blind (not ruleset diving or mod editing experience, etc) and not knowing what's "vendor loot" and what's important. However, as a admirer of the X-COM genre, it's fun of "should I really sell this or hoard it for later?" As a completionist and hoarder, it's a horrible feeling of trying to balance vault space/money/research.

Yes, it's going to feel overwhelming, some things I feel would be nice to have some idea to keep around
Spoiler:
(I'm looking at you, Tac Vest - bane of my existence... wish there was a line in the Bootypedia entry that was along the lines of "Cap'n, could be useful to keep a few around... Brainers always need stuff ta tinker with for bettah armor, and could teach dem Runts to improve it".)

Lastly, finding out a lot of the stuff I was selling earlier was things I wish I would have kept a few more units of... my practice now is try to keep one of everything (at least for a first "blind" playthrough) and there are a few ways to handle space (bases aren't as expensive as you might think, especially maintenance costs / and a certain mechanism is research unlocked that can be used to improve space as well ).

Offline DracoGriffin

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #340 on: July 05, 2015, 09:15:16 pm »
Dioxine, can you tell me regarding the tanks in piratez, if they reaction fire is it always from their primary gun or can you have them like troops choose which weapon is showing in their hand(s) and hence reaction fire from that one. It's just I noticed my crocodile tank seems to always reaction fire the flamethrower and I would rather have it reaction fire with the HMG.

https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,2179.msg21670.html#msg21670

Not sure if that still holds true, but searching in other threads seems to be the same. Basically: reaction fire should be using the weapon with the lowest TU cost for Snap Shot. Fixes could be: increase TU for flamethrower/decrease TU for HMG/change Crocodile tank flamethrower to a different firing mode?

Note: not sure if the weapon displaying actually works, as per the link above by Warboy.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #341 on: July 05, 2015, 09:57:28 pm »
I see it the other way around, as a "gotcha" for new players. Who I'd have thought are more in need of extra help than veterans.

You've gotcha'ed yourself. 'Gotcha' implies a player's loss. There is no loss here. There is loss in not knowing the research tree, but discovering it is half the fun, and I'm making it as branched out as possible so there are no useless paths. Although on a related topic I might add some info on stuff that might be realistically expected to be needed later. Maybe disassembly for the firearms, so instead of a huge gun collection, you'd only have to keep some generic parts (like "rifle barrel" or sth). But indeed, how there could be a learning curve without bad decisions? There is no holding your hand in this game, and never will be. The game hates you and wants you to lose. Because that's how *I* like my games.

All I can tell you is that it doesn't work for me at all.

Existence of such players has been anticipated by the Alien Brain. I respect your position, but my position on this matter is non-negotiable.

And with the way research tends to work (to my knowledge, someone can totally correct me here), getting the Bootypedia entry without researching Stone Hatchet would already unlock the next step without requiring researching Stone Hatchet, maybe?

I could make it so both Minecraft and the Hatchet itself unlock the entry, but then again, why would anyone research the hatchet later, already having the entry? A 100% empty research? Basically I have 2 choices:
1. Hatchet is useless and you would only research it to get the info on an enemy weapon;
2. Hatchet leads to something, but that something should be accessible pretty early - either through certain encounters, lucky disc/interrog find, or, if all else fails, through some manufacture prior to researching. Yeah I could kill the project altogether but I don't want to.

@Tanks: yes lowest TU cost Snap Shot seems to be prioritized.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 10:03:04 pm by Dioxine »

Offline SIMON

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #342 on: July 05, 2015, 10:10:04 pm »
Thanks for all the information folks but as silly me just noticed the auxulliary weapon, when it's a HMG, only has autoshot so the situation doesn't apply. I should have checked this first before bothering the forum but sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees.

Offline Searmay

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #343 on: July 06, 2015, 12:38:03 pm »
Quote
There is no loss here.
But there is! Not knowing that I have to build a stone hatchet before researching it, and having no other reason to build one, means I won't be able to research it. Unless I stumble across one and see it in my research list before selling it off. And as I've yet to see anyone else using primitive weapons, that doesn't look likely to happen fast.

I don't object to the huge number of weapons and research options. It's not what I'd prefer, but not everything has to be. But having to build an axe to research it is counter to how the rest of the game works, and without any hints that it's the case I consider it a "gotcha".

On another note, the following oddities in manufacturing are presumably bugs:

  • Harpoon Stun Clip is the only thing in the "Ammunition" category rather than any of the sub-categories.
  • Several items can be produced without a workshop. Might be intended for prisoner processing, but probably not for 30mm cannon rounds, amazon outfit, smartrifle clip, or molotov.

Also Piratez.rul has a mix of DOS and Unix line endings. Which doesn't actually cause any problems, but is rather bizarre.

Offline SIMON

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #344 on: July 06, 2015, 01:47:15 pm »
I know that piratez is a much longer run through than other openxcom conversions but being in the middle of December, there still aren't any "alien bases" up yet. Am I being too successful in shooting down ufos, should I just be patient or is it something else? Using version 0.9j on Soldier Diaries Legacy 2015 04 30 0620+win32 build. Thanks in advance.