Author Topic: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - J17A - 8 Sep - I Stab At Thee!!! (reloaded)  (Read 1019758 times)

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #345 on: July 06, 2015, 01:59:23 pm »
But there is! Not knowing that I have to build a stone hatchet before researching it, and having no other reason to build one, means I won't be able to research it. Unless I stumble across one and see it in my research list before selling it off. And as I've yet to see anyone else using primitive weapons, that doesn't look likely to happen fast.

I don't object to the huge number of weapons and research options. It's not what I'd prefer, but not everything has to be. But having to build an axe to research it is counter to how the rest of the game works, and without any hints that it's the case I consider it a "gotcha".

Well it is unavoidable in this case precisely because how the engine works (minecraft cannot unlock stone hatchet tech/research because that'd make the hatchet unresearchable as a found item)... but I understand it's a bit confusing. A bit confusing is not a loss, however - and there will be a hint that such behaviour is possible in the next version, because you're right that you can't hit people in the face with such things if everything else does work differently (I am surprised you aren't criticizing the Dynamite, which *sometimes*, dependant on gameplay, can also be produced and THEN researched).

On another note, the following oddities in manufacturing are presumably bugs:

  • Harpoon Stun Clip is the only thing in the "Ammunition" category rather than any of the sub-categories.
  • Several items can be produced without a workshop. Might be intended for prisoner processing, but probably not for 30mm cannon rounds, amazon outfit, smartrifle clip, or molotov.

Also Piratez.rul has a mix of DOS and Unix line endings. Which doesn't actually cause any problems, but is rather bizarre.

Thanks for those. Prisoners, Molotovs and Amazon Outfit are intended, the rest were bugs. Anything else suspicious?

No idea about these DOS/Unix discrepancies and how they got there.

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #346 on: July 06, 2015, 02:18:07 pm »
@Dioxine: You have probably explained this somewhere in this thread, maybe even multiple times, but it's hard to find stuff when everything is discussed in one huge thread. Can I please ask 2 questions:

1. What exactly is it with ths Hatchet resp. Dynamite? Why can you produce items without researching them first? And why do you need to research them afterwards? Please give me/us one specific example (not just generic explanation).

2. You mention that something is not possible in the current engine... what is it exactly? Maybe it can be easily added (even more so in OXCE) and we wouldn't have to go through the torture of "illogical/counter-intuitive game mechanics".

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #347 on: July 06, 2015, 03:30:41 pm »
Sometimes the research required to make something is not the research that comes from that thing. Ok, didn't help. Let's take an example:

Vanilla:
I want to use a plasma rifle!
*Pick up plasma rifle and research it*
I can make and use a plasma rifle! *pew pew*

Some stuff in Piratez:
I want to make explosives!
*Brainers research how to cook explosives*
Runts: Cool work brainers. We think we can make this boomy stuff now. We call it dynamite!
Brainers: Dyna-what? Give us a sample!
*Brainers research dynamite*
Brainers: That dynamite is awesome! Here's the Bootypedia article and a few ideas we got on how to use such boomy stuff! (ie you got the dynamite research project for dependencies of other research)

OR
Gals: We found some boomy stuff!
*Brainers research it*
Brainers: That's called dynamite gals, it blows up exactly this much!
Runts: How do we make it?
Brainers: Euh.. Dunno..
*Some time passes, brainers eventually research the proper thing*
Runts: Ah AH! That's how you make dynamite!

Dioxine wants dynamite and stone hatchets to be researchable if you find the items. This research represents the Brainers testing it and giving you the bootypedia entry + getting ideas of what they could do with it, but not how to make it. Much like researching most guns gives the article but doesn't actually allow you to make them.

A different research project (let's call it Explosive Making) is needed to unlock the manufacturing project. If you happen to research "Explosive Making" first, you'll get a popup that you can make dynamite. But you won't know what dynamite is. So you make one, give it to the brainers and they'll research it to give you the bootypedia and project as a dependency for other projects.

On the other hand, you can find those items from certain enemies. If you bring back dynamite in your latest pile of loot, your brainers can research it, but you still won't know how to make it because you need "Explosive Making" to make dynamite, not the "Dynamite" research project.

It would be stupid to require Explosive Making in order to research Dynamite. If you have dynamite right in front of you, it's not alien tech and the gals can use it so the brainers should be able to test it. Similarly, it would be really harsh to require the Dynamite research project in order to discover Explosive Making since you might not loot it for a while, thus preventing you from making explosives for a long time.

Dioxine, how about putting a "unlocks" or "getOneFree" in the Explosive Making research to immediately grant the dynamite research project when you complet Explosive Making? And similarly for he stone hatchet research being given by the primitive weapons research.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #348 on: July 06, 2015, 03:35:27 pm »
@Dioxine: You have probably explained this somewhere in this thread, maybe even multiple times, but it's hard to find stuff when everything is discussed in one huge thread. Can I please ask 2 questions:

1. What exactly is it with ths Hatchet resp. Dynamite? Why can you produce items without researching them first? And why do you need to research them afterwards? Please give me/us one specific example (not just generic explanation).

2. You mention that something is not possible in the current engine... what is it exactly? Maybe it can be easily added (even more so in OXCE) and we wouldn't have to go through the torture of "illogical/counter-intuitive game mechanics".

Well, a good example will be the Dynamite. You can get Dynamite (technology) from 4 sources:
1) Physically finding and researching it;
2) As a random tech gained from a Data Disc;
3) As a random tech gained through interrogation of certain enemies;
4) Developing Cooking by the Book, manufacturing Dynamite, then researching it.

And the proposition here is:
5) Developing Cooking by the Book gives Dynamite instantly (and vice versa, perhaps).

In OXCom, you can have either 1, 2, 3 & 4, or 2, 3 & 5, but you CANNOT have 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5.

You need both Dynamite and Cooking by the Book for Explosive Munitions tech, which lets you to manufacture a variety of HE and I ammo. Further complication: Cooking by the Book can be unlocked either by finding and researching (or getting through interrogation) either Old Earth Books or Dynamite.

Now, The problem/limitation is: If the Dynamite is to be possible to research as a physical object found on the field, you need to lock it as NeedItem: true (else it would be researchable from the start, as it has no other prerequisites). However, doing so makes it impossible to research dynamite WITHOUT the item (ex. said Cooking by the Book unlocking Dynamite topic for research, or researching it instantly), because NeedItem: true makes it impossible to do so (it has also another effect, but that later). It would be still possible to get it through interrogations/data disc random tech, since they use GetOneFree mechanic, which instantly gives a single random tech from a prepared list. However, this mechanic cannot be used with Cooking by the Book, because of 2 limitations: one is soft (GetOneFree can be forced to give a predetermined tech if the list is only 1 item long), one is hard: IF Cooking by the Book has a GetOneFree list, the engine makes it researchable from the start, ie. ignores any prerequisites for this tech (except NeedItem). There is a workaround - use LookUp function - but if the Cooking had Lookup: Dynamite, both techs would indeed be researched, but the Cooking research report wouldn't be displayed - instead of it, Dynamite entry would be displayed.

So in short: either the item is locked out by the need of a specific item in stores (NeedItem: true), or by normal tech tree prerequisites (but NeedItem: true makes them null and void). Those two mechanics cannot be mixed. Similarly, GetOneFree mechanic makes all normal tech tree prerequisites null and void (yes if a research topic A has a GetOneFree list, research topic's A own prerequisites are made null and void, however silly it might sound). So this mechanic cannot be mixed with normal tree-based research as well.

Yes it is convoluted but I hope I made myself clear enough?

As for the rationale, Arthanor summed it up pretty well. Because of schizotech, and generally not very sound approach to science, sometimes you have instructions/ideas HOW TO make stuff - or simply have a facility which enables you to manufacture it - sort of a machine with a red button and instructions. You have a general idea what the item is, but then you need field testing to get a detailed report (researching a manufactured item).

@Edric:
Supercomputer is planned but complex to introduce (many changes to the base balance & research tree needed), flare gun is planned, bear trap is plausible but both slated for later because of low importance.

@SIMON:
The "Alien Base" mission is quite rare in Piratez, that's all there's to it. Just your luck :) Similarly "infiltration" (coutry betrayal) is rare. First one because how immensely profitable it is, second one because how uncool and damaging it is, especially in a long game.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 03:47:48 pm by Dioxine »

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #349 on: July 06, 2015, 03:44:29 pm »
getOneFree removing dependencies on a research project is a really weird one.. Is there an actual reason it's like that?

I understand that the only getOneFree research in vanilla are interrogations, but they don't require this feature..

It could work equally well if projects that need no dependencies just had no dependencies, while other projects could use both dependencies and getOneFree.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #350 on: July 06, 2015, 03:49:20 pm »
It could work equally well if projects that need no dependencies just had no dependencies, while other projects could use both dependencies and getOneFree.

I suspect it is done that way because cutting corners (would take extra code to check both cases, easier to code if only a single check is needed).

Offline Searmay

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #351 on: July 06, 2015, 04:19:32 pm »
On dynamite, I didn't know it had the same issue - I found plenty of it on raiders.

Quote
yes if a research topic A has a GetOneFree list, research topic's A own prerequisites are made null and void
Is that not considered a bug? Has it been reported as such? Likewise with NeedItem.

Quote
The "Alien Base" mission is quite rare in Piratez, [...] Similarly "infiltration" (coutry betrayal) is rare.
After a year I've had plenty of both. Just lucky, I guess ...

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #352 on: July 06, 2015, 05:05:51 pm »
IF Cooking by the Book has a GetOneFree list, the engine makes it researchable from the start, ie. ignores any prerequisites for this tech (except NeedItem).

That seems like a bug (or at least an "unwanted side effect") to me... worth reporting.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #353 on: July 06, 2015, 05:06:58 pm »
You can report it (my own sight is not welcome there) but the answer probably will be, "Irrelevant To Vanilla". It's really hard to condemn such a rationale too, as the devs must make choices, their stick to their priorities, and their first priority is re-creating vanilla XCom, modding being only a second priority... Otoh if someone submitted code that repairs the bug and breaks nothing, I can see no reason it wouldn't be included (other than catiousness - often it's really hard to say if new code really doesn't break anything).

On a lighter note, I think I've heard that the devs consider research engine and enemy AI "dark jungles of OXCom" where no sane man goes unless there is absolutely no other choice :)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 05:10:34 pm by Dioxine »

Offline Zharkov

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #354 on: July 06, 2015, 08:24:59 pm »
Say, Dioxine, you are using Robin's Anthropod recolored, but do you have plans for the spitter, too? Looks a bit like Yhashtur, doesn't it?

Offline Yankes

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #355 on: July 06, 2015, 08:58:39 pm »
Have no fear, Extended is there! (at least when I finish things I currently have in plans :D )

I could add new property "OptionalItem" that could skip requirements if you have that item.

Offline Edrick

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #356 on: July 06, 2015, 09:19:17 pm »
Couple things:
- TK Projector page says "demolotion" instead of "demolition"
- Small silly suggestions, like a bear trap (cheaper Landmine with Piercing damage and 1-tile range), a flare gun (in order to set things on fire at long-range by using Firing Acc instead of Throwing + Str) and a Supercomputer facility, which requires Power Station, provides Brainer space and is necessary for higher-end aircraft, especially the Conqueror?

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #357 on: July 06, 2015, 09:19:41 pm »
Say, Dioxine, you are using Robin's Anthropod recolored, but do you have plans for the spitter, too? Looks a bit like Yhashtur, doesn't it?

Definitely looks promising, but no place for him yet. Otoh as long as I can compose a meaningful race (in the story sense), I don't have to make my own graphical assets, which are the most work-heavy part of everything. Right now I am thinking about making Gazer a living weapon (it's a gaze, so probably laser, not uber-powerful but armor-stripping :) ). Gazers with lasguns are simply silly.

Have no fear, Extended is there! (at least when I finish things I currently have in plans :D )

I could add new property "OptionalItem" that could skip requirements if you have that item.

That'd be really helpful, and end these quarrels :) Would it be possible to make it so dynamite gives Cooking and Cooking gives dynamite at the same time with these mechanics? I like the idea of field testing but really this is counterintuitive... I might still leave manufacture -> research function, but not for any of the current items (researches labeled ex. 'Prototype Something', so you need to research, manufacture, then research again to find out what techs are you missing to get a finished product.

Offline Zharkov

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #358 on: July 06, 2015, 11:10:08 pm »
After some consideration, I have nerfed the Super Energy Armor a bit. And added nothing else - especially no hints of forbidden knowledge.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.92 - 25 Jun
« Reply #359 on: July 07, 2015, 03:13:19 am »
After some consideration, I have nerfed the Super Energy Armor a bit. And added nothing else - especially no hints of forbidden knowledge.

This armor is actually very weak for a powered armor, but this is irrelevant anyway unless I find/make/receive proper gfx :)