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Author Topic: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste  (Read 1147253 times)

Offline PPQ

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #4035 on: February 09, 2024, 11:54:39 pm »
Well, I tried again and the electric darts are kinda workable due to doing a lot of health damage on top. Stun darts are still useless, and the rest too niche. So perhaps not totally useless.
That's the red and blue ones, right? I just call them that. Personally I find them to be about the same. The green ones are a complete trap though.

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But 'best stun weapon in the game' they aren't, unless you measure 'best' using some extremely strange metric. On average, two electric rifle darts can take down most 'soft' targets, similar to tasers but with rifle-ish range. That's it. A moderately tough enemy, like a Snakeman, can take the entire clip before going to sleep and, unlike tasers, the health damage is somewhat dangerous. Not as dangerous as it looks, but still.
I was perhaps being a bit hyperbolic due to recent experiences with these things really pulling their weight just 15 minutes before that post. :)

But if you will allow a digression my criteria for judging weapons is based on the understanding that no weapon is going to be good in all situations and they aren't meant to be. So in my view a good weapon is one that performs well within the niche given to it by the game.

And personally I think that when it comes to doing their job in that respect the regular dart rifles are in my view right up there with the best.

And yes, there are objectively better options further down the line. But that's the point. They are further down the line. At the time and place where you get dart rifles there is simply nothing like them on land or sea. Well aside from gas grenades I guess. But those are just too good.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2024, 11:57:15 pm by PPQ »

Offline Juku121

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #4036 on: February 10, 2024, 12:22:47 am »
That's the red and blue ones, right? I just call them that. Personally I find them to be about the same. The green ones are a complete trap though.
The red ones (bio-stun) are crap. Take about twice as many shots to stun as the blues (electric), unless you get lucky. And if the enemy has armour, it's even worse. I just shot three full clips into a Snakeman before he went down. For comparison, Snakemen take about one clip of 'blues' and 1-2 TGL blunts or 2-3 regular blunts.

Green (acid) are very situational, but not totally useless. But pulse weapons are much better for what they do, although available somewhat later. But you don't really need armour stripping or chem damage, well, ever.

And yes, there are objectively better options further down the line. But that's the point. They are further down the line. At the time and place where you get dart rifles there is simply nothing like them on land or sea. Well aside from gas grenades I guess. But those are just too good.
Gas grenades? The green ones that do basically incendiary damage x2, 10-20 a pop at best, ~half stun, and tend to outright kill people?

KO grenades are what it's at, they are just as good if not better than dart rifle electric rounds in most circumstances, and available from the exact same line of research. When they aren't (because they rely on the 4x damage multiplier a lot), chances are, you want to break out the big guns like Taser Cannons or TGL blunts anyway.

Blunts are most likely available before darts, even. They do have some downsides, but I'm partial to TGLs and KO grenades for tougher and softer enemies, respectively... Or I would be, if I hadn't nerfed all grenade ranges and made the red dart rifle ammo actually useful myself (no randomised stun damage, armour piercing comparable to sniper rifles). Now these dart rifles were more or less the same as the new 'blue' darts, and the old upgraded dart ammo with my modifications was even better (that one could regularly one-shot).

I do have to concur that underwater is where darts are really better than almost anything else.



So, while I agree with your methodology, I disagree with the results. Feel free to correct me, though. I haven't actually played vanilla XCF since forever, and my own version for most of the year.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2024, 12:28:07 am by Juku121 »

Offline PPQ

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #4037 on: February 10, 2024, 01:04:12 am »
The red ones (bio-stun) are crap. Take about twice as many shots to stun as the blues (electric), unless you get lucky. And if the enemy has armour, it's even worse. I just shot three full clips into a Snakeman before he went down. For comparison, Snakemen take about one clip of 'blues' and 1-2 TGL blunts or 2-3 regular blunts.

Green (acid) are very situational, but not totally useless. But pulse weapons are much better for what they do, although available somewhat later. But you don't really need armour stripping or chem damage, well, ever.
I am only using these for underwater operations. So I have no idea how they'd fair on land. Nor do I see why you would do it when at the same time you also get stuff like proper assault rifles with full auto fire at the same time. Hell, by the time you have these you will have access to Black Ops weapons and Tritanium ammo for use on land. And by the time you get pulse weapons you should have a decent supply of captured alien underwater rifles as well. At least I do. So I am not sure why you'd be comparing those to these.

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Gas grenades? The green ones that do basically incendiary damage x2, 10-20 a pop at best, ~half stun, and tend to outright kill people?
Yes. The stuff that instant kills most humanoid enemies at the time of introduction and can still pose a serious threat to aliens even much later on. And they even stun people on occasion as an added bonus. They only really fail when faced with heavy armor like MIB power armor.

They are just a complete cheat code if you get them early enough. Like, crab people raids turn from nearly impossible to one shot kills with those things. And cult missions become a lot more fun when you can bombard your enemies with instant death grenades.

I use them as my primary offensive hand grenade up until I get access to plasma. If the MGL had gas grenades I would literally just arm half of my entire team with them.

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KO grenades are what it's at, they are just as good if not better than dart rifle electric rounds in most circumstances, and available from the exact same line of research. When they aren't (because they rely on the 4x damage multiplier a lot), chances are, you want to break out the big guns like Taser Cannons or TGL blunts anyway.
I am unable to find any weapon by that name in the game or in the wiki. What is the actual name of those?

This said, from what I remember taser cannons have really bad range.

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Blunts are most likely available before darts, even. They do have some downsides, but I'm partial to TGLs and KO grenades for tougher and softer enemies, respectively... Or I would be, if I hadn't nerfed all grenade ranges and made the red dart rifle ammo actually useful myself (no randomised stun damage, armour piercing comparable to sniper rifles). Now these dart rifles were more or less the same as the new 'blue' darts, and the old upgraded dart ammo with my modifications was even better (that one could regularly one-shot).
I can not comment on modded performance. I will however note that I play the mod that lets you start 1 year early so that might skew my experience.

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I do have to concur that underwater is where darts are really better than almost anything else.
They are purely an underwater weapon as far as the description goes and thus my evaluation is concerned. The fact you can also use them on land is just a situational bonus. But really, there is no reason not to pack your transport with weapons for different situations and switch them out depending on the need. And on land you will always have better options.

Offline psavola

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #4038 on: February 10, 2024, 08:31:32 am »
Dart Rifles require a Workshop, and also require Alien Biology and Mutant Physiology. Manufacturing dart rifles requires building a workshop (32 days), recruiting more engineers, etc. While in a normal game, you could get these researched and workshop built, you would probably be at least in August 1997. But you should have already rushed Promo II and Explosives license earlier. And then you can purchase Milkors and Grenade Launchers, which are better with distances. And due to dogs and reaction barking (to stop the enemy units from reacting), if you are on shorter distances, melee or very close range stunning is actually a very viable strategy on maps which have some cover. So you don't really need short-range stunning guns that much (after the point where you have moved on from taser pistols, i.e. trained up the agents' melee accuracy). You essentially need those a little bit with enemies which have too good reactions and/or melee dodging to make meleeing them unviable, for example BL assassins). But for short-range non-melee stunning for example Milkor works very well as well (it's very TU-efficient).

Offline PPQ

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #4039 on: February 10, 2024, 09:57:52 am »
Dart Rifles require a Workshop, and also require Alien Biology and Mutant Physiology. Manufacturing dart rifles requires building a workshop (32 days), recruiting more engineers, etc. While in a normal game, you could get these researched and workshop built, you would probably be at least in August 1997. But you should have already rushed Promo II and Explosives license earlier. And then you can purchase Milkors and Grenade Launchers, which are better with distances. And due to dogs and reaction barking (to stop the enemy units from reacting), if you are on shorter distances, melee or very close range stunning is actually a very viable strategy on maps which have some cover. So you don't really need short-range stunning guns that much (after the point where you have moved on from taser pistols, i.e. trained up the agents' melee accuracy). You essentially need those a little bit with enemies which have too good reactions and/or melee dodging to make meleeing them unviable, for example BL assassins). But for short-range non-melee stunning for example Milkor works very well as well (it's very TU-efficient).
Don't think of them as a ground based stun weapon. Think of them as your entry level naval weapon that fills the niche of those things but underwater.

Offline psavola

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #4040 on: February 10, 2024, 10:07:24 am »
Don't think of them as a ground based stun weapon. Think of them as your entry level naval weapon that fills the niche of those things but underwater.

The only thing you will need to capture underwater are aquatoids. Those arrive in a ship (and everyone except possibly one start inside the ship). It is IMHO the best strategy to rush there to melee them with stun rods/prods (you may also throw a couple of gas mines from shorter ranges). If you try to defeat aquatoids with ranged weapons, they will wreck your guys with their better vision and sonic weapons.

Offline PPQ

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #4041 on: February 10, 2024, 10:52:21 am »
The only thing you will need to capture underwater are aquatoids. Those arrive in a ship (and everyone except possibly one start inside the ship). It is IMHO the best strategy to rush there to melee them with stun rods/prods (you may also throw a couple of gas mines from shorter ranges). If you try to defeat aquatoids with ranged weapons, they will wreck your guys with their better vision and sonic weapons.
It's not really about capturing. Although captured stuff sells better than corpses so there is that.

But fundamentally I hold that in the early to mid water game when you still don't have a reliable supply of captured aquatoid weaponry and ammo dart rifles are your best general purpose underwater weapon. The fact they also capture stuff at times is a bonus.

Than again admittedly the bar isn't high to clear. At the moment you get these, and for a significant time afterward your options are either the strange underwater AK which is meh at best, melee weapons or the odd captured sonic pistol with no reliable source of ammo. Well, I guess you also have harpoon launchers but those are just bad in my experience.

Offline psavola

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #4042 on: February 10, 2024, 11:39:38 am »
But fundamentally I hold that in the early to mid water game when you still don't have a reliable supply of captured aquatoid weaponry and ammo dart rifles are your best general purpose underwater weapon. The fact they also capture stuff at times is a bonus.

Than again admittedly the bar isn't high to clear. At the moment you get these, and for a significant time afterward your options are either the strange underwater AK which is meh at best, melee weapons or the odd captured sonic pistol with no reliable source of ammo. Well, I guess you also have harpoon launchers but those are just bad in my experience.

Gas Cannon (with AP ammo) requires only a little bit more research and is far superior (range, accuracy, 1-shot kills) to kill compared to dart rifles. Usually the first underwater missions start at the earliest at the end of 1997, so it's not very early. You can deal with the first underwater missions against deep ones and gilldogs with any weapon (crossbow, ADS, gas/anti-personnel mine, gas cannon, ...) using camping tactics, but once you get the aquatoids and need to capture at least one to progress it gets slightly trickier.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #4043 on: February 10, 2024, 02:23:56 pm »
I thought we were discussing stunning in general, not underwater combat (lethal and nonlethal) in particular. If that's the case, I stand by these.
Mayyybe most general-purpose.
I do have to concur that underwater is where darts are really better than almost anything else.
Which is not too far from PPQ's position.


Nor do I see why you would do it when at the same time you also get stuff like proper assault rifles with full auto fire at the same time.
Assault rifles don't stun.

And by the time you get pulse weapons you should have a decent supply of captured alien underwater rifles as well. At least I do. So I am not sure why you'd be comparing those to these.
Chem ammo strips armour. That's the one niche it has, which is admittedly not a big one, what with superpowered melee and all.

Yes. The stuff that instant kills most humanoid enemies at the time of introduction and can still pose a serious threat to aliens even much later on. And they even stun people on occasion as an added bonus. They only really fail when faced with heavy armor like MIB power armor.
Doesn't the special fire damage bypass armour and only hit resistances? So it's more that the MiBs resist it, not that the armour as such helps.

Anyway, this was in the context of stunning enemies, which gas grenades do pretty poorly. And the special damage rule means you've got to throw a few against the beefier enemies and/or pray that the enemy is not one of the smoke-resistant types (admittedly, few are). But they're pretty good, yes. Mainly because of the OG grenade mechanics coupled with the nigh-omnipresent choke vulnerability.

I am unable to find any weapon by that name in the game or in the wiki. What is the actual name of those?
Knockout Grenade.

This said, from what I remember taser cannons have really bad range.
Indeed. But they're the safe high-damage, high-penetration option for when you really need to capture a tough enemy.

I can not comment on modded performance.
My remark about KO grenades and TGL is vanilla, the addendum was just a caveat that I actually don't practice what I preach due to modding.

They are purely an underwater weapon as far as the description goes...
You mean this: "It can also be used underwater"? That's definitely not 'purely underwater'.

And on land you will always have better options.
My point all along.

And then you can purchase Milkors and Grenade Launchers, which are better with distances.
Milkors and regular GLs are only better with aimed shots at long ranges. Snaps are mostly worse, both for accuracy and TU. And the regular blunt ammo (as opposed to TGL) isn't too reliable at one-shotting, while electric darts are pretty consistent at two-shotting. Long-range, arcing fire and the ability to use other ammo is what makes them better, IMO. Plus reloading that also eats TU. TGL is where it's really no longer remotely competitive.

And due to dogs...
These effing canines seem to be the answer to everything. 😢

But for short-range non-melee stunning for example Milkor works very well as well (it's very TU-efficient).
Dart Pistols with electric darts are massively more accurate at both short and medium ranges, take about 3-5 darts whereas Milkors take 1-2, so not too far off damage-wise. But more accurate and more flexible, since you can put them into everyone's pocket and the cost of one shot is only 18% TU. Longer-range it's different, of course.

The only thing you will need to capture underwater are aquatoids.
...
If you try to defeat aquatoids with ranged weapons, they will wreck your guys with their better vision and sonic weapons.
While true, capturing some hapless melee-only Gillmen Deep Ones is a bit more lucrative.

But fundamentally I hold that in the early to mid water game when you still don't have a reliable supply of captured aquatoid weaponry and ammo dart rifles are your best general purpose underwater weapon.
Gas Cannon (with AP ammo) requires only a little bit more research and is far superior (range, accuracy, 1-shot kills) to kill compared to dart rifles.
Gas cannons don't really have better range/accuracy (same thing, really). And are less accurate within basic vision range, notably so. They also don't one-shot aquatic enemies, especially Aquatoids. Boy was I surprised to learn that some of them need to be shot thrice. GCs generally take 1-2 shots to kill, Dart Rifles with electric darts 2-3 to stun. So I don't think one is massively better than the other, but they do have different perks (HE ammo for near misses still doing damage, incendiaries for lighting stuff up and demoralising vs dart captures).
« Last Edit: February 10, 2024, 02:28:49 pm by Juku121 »

Offline PPQ

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #4044 on: February 10, 2024, 02:40:51 pm »
Anyway, this was in the context of stunning enemies
I was talking in general. That's the point of divergence than. :)

Basically to sum up what my point is its that for its time and place, that being an early to mid era underwater weapon that can stun as well the dart rifles are really good. And they don't really grow obsolete in that role until you get blasta rifles as your DPS and small launchers for stunning. Which can be quite a while. All of which combines to make them some of the best weapons in the game balance vise. Right up there with the Black Ops SMG and the MGL.

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Knockout Grenade.
Thanks. Somehow I succeeded in completely missing that one. O_o

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Indeed. But they're the safe high-damage, high-penetration option for when you really need to capture a tough enemy.
I kind of just flood the enemy with smoke and bumrush them with bioelectric tazers. :)
I have been meaning to give them a go but the combination of heavy weight and general unwieldability has always put me off. A taser pistol is something you can pocket and still have a primary weapon.

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You mean this: "It can also be used underwater"? That's definitely not 'purely underwater'.
Fair enough. I admit to remembering wrong.

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Milkors and regular GLs are only better with aimed shots at long ranges. Snaps are mostly worse, both for accuracy and TU. And the regular blunt ammo (as opposed to TGL) isn't too reliable at one-shotting, while electric darts are pretty consistent at two-shotting. Long-range, arcing fire and the ability to use other ammo is what makes them better, IMO. Plus reloading that also eats TU. TGL is where it's really no longer remotely competitive.
They are however far more versatile because they can provide you with smoke, HE or other forms of cover as well. It's kind of like how Taser Pistols are generally not great as stun weapons but the fact you can give one to each soldier for very little weight and inventory space just makes them a workhorse for me.

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These effing canines seem to be the answer to everything. 😢
I am yet to try using dogs or any animals. Also, just how do you equip tamed minotaurs? I have 3 in my inventory just chilling.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #4045 on: February 10, 2024, 02:51:25 pm »
Taser Cannons are a quite niche weapon for a specific time and place. Filling that same enemy with electric darts is probably better, but TCs are available earlier.

Milkors are indeed more versatile, but if you're definitely wanting a capture, other things do it better.

I think Minotaurs have some sort of union rule for not participating in non-base-defence missions? :P

Offline Kozinsky

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #4046 on: February 13, 2024, 03:19:00 pm »
Not a bug, but a note: move all strings displayed to the user in "battle_game.flashMessage" from the script file to the language files to be able to translate them.

Offline 0xEBJC

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #4047 on: February 14, 2024, 03:02:23 am »
I suspect this issue is more with OXCE? possibly and not XCF?

In the tech tree window item dependencies are inconsistent.  For example "Alien Fuel Trace"

In my game it shows that for manufacturing Required By: Elerium (From Alien Fuel Trace) [m]

but it doesn't show other dependencies for manufacturing such as "Trace Flares" which also require Alien Fuel Trace?  Seams to be more correct in the sell window and right clicking on the entry

I recall there are other places but I don't remember exactly where
« Last Edit: February 14, 2024, 03:15:59 am by 0xEBJC »

Offline 0xEBJC

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #4048 on: February 14, 2024, 08:11:08 am »
Looking at the facility rul file, I have a question about the living quarters for the following regarding mana recovery


STR_LIVING_QUARTERS
manaRecoveryPerDay: 3


STR_LIVING_QUARTERS_2
manaRecoveryPerDay: 4

would four of the 1x1 STR_LIVING_QUARTERS add up to 12 mana recovery?  and if so, I'm wondering why the single 2x2 STR_LIVING_QUARTERS_2 not be something equal to or grater than four of the 1x1 STR_LIVING_QUARTERS?



Like this???
STR_LIVING_QUARTERS_2
manaRecoveryPerDay: 15

Offline Kozinsky

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #4049 on: February 14, 2024, 09:19:00 am »
Looking at the facility rul file, I have a question about the living quarters for the following regarding mana recovery


STR_LIVING_QUARTERS
manaRecoveryPerDay: 3


STR_LIVING_QUARTERS_2
manaRecoveryPerDay: 4

would four of the 1x1 STR_LIVING_QUARTERS add up to 12 mana recovery?  and if so, I'm wondering why the single 2x2 STR_LIVING_QUARTERS_2 not be something equal to or grater than four of the 1x1 STR_LIVING_QUARTERS?



Like this???
STR_LIVING_QUARTERS_2
manaRecoveryPerDay: 15

From Ruleset Reference:
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manaRecoveryPerDay:
How much mana does the facility recover per day. The facility setting is NOT cumulative, more facilities don't provide more regen. If there are multiple facilities of different type with different regen rate, the best (highest) regen rate is used.