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Author Topic: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste  (Read 1233605 times)

Offline psavola

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3885 on: October 23, 2023, 06:25:00 pm »
A common occurence. But what do you mean by "cannot return to the start squares"? What's stopping you? I can go back just fine in your save.

The start tiles are on upper floor. You get down by dropping down. There don't appear to be any stairs back up, or I'm just blind. But if you say you can go back, I suppose there are..

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3886 on: October 25, 2023, 01:33:47 pm »
The start tiles are on upper floor. You get down by dropping down. There don't appear to be any stairs back up, or I'm just blind. But if you say you can go back, I suppose there are..

There are. ;D

Offline Nerro

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3887 on: October 25, 2023, 09:28:38 pm »
Sonic Weapons Focusing unlocks both Sonic Shotgun Focused Clip manufacturing and Sonic Shotgun Focused Clip research (that, in turn, unlock Sonic Shotgun Focused Clip manufacturing a second time):
https://xcf.trigramreactor.net/master/article/STR_HUMAN_SONIC_FOCUSED_FIRE


Offline psavola

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3888 on: October 26, 2023, 05:52:43 am »
I was surprised when I noticed hat MAGMA Chainsawbot's chainsaws aren't chainsaws, but actually auto-shotting firearms with 8 max range. The sprite also does not suggest this. This led to the wreckage of a couple of flying drones.

If you wanted MAGMA chainsawbots to have a ranged weapon, it would have been far more intuitive to make it have two weapons, one melee chainsaw, the other some ranged weapon. Now there seems to be nothing to suggest the chainsaws are actually shotgun-like ranged weapons.

...

Speaking of melee. There seems to be no logic to melee weapons damage rolls. About half of them have 50-150% spread (most of them punier ones). About half of them have 0-200 %. A couple have 0-100% + 0-100%. IMHO it makes no sense that the minimum damage of a knife is bigger than a battle axe, for example. I would think 50-150% spread would make most sense for all of them unless there are good reasons to the contrary.

....

Shogg blade description is: "This short sword is too heavy for comfortable use by normal humans, but absolutely devastating when wielded by a stronger fighter. Its terramite edge makes it quite effective against armor." Yet it has armor effectiveness of 1 (the default), just like most other melees weapon that don't have such mentions (compare to a knife, battle axe or hatchet, for example). Did you forget to add an armor effectiveness definition here (or reduce the armor effectiveness of some other basic melee weapons)?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2023, 06:03:35 am by psavola »

Offline Chuckebaby

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3889 on: October 26, 2023, 01:38:02 pm »
Slander missions

I know this is probably subjective but the Slander de-spawn penalty (compared to awarded points) for the completed mission is a bit steep.
I only say this because it is extremely difficult to get to the mission in time. By the time you have a craft in the air, the tracking is lost.

I was surprised when I noticed hat MAGMA Chainsawbot's chainsaws aren't chainsaws, but actually auto-shotting firearms with 8 max range. The sprite also does not suggest this. This led to the wreckage of a couple of flying drones.


I just noticed this as well. However after having a Sectopod shot a gas grenade at me (on a striker craft mission) I wasn't that surprised  :P
That one was random though. Have only seen it once.

Should be noted though, i have seen the MAGMA Chainsawbots use the chainsaw mele instead of throwing them (seen both).
« Last Edit: October 26, 2023, 01:40:07 pm by Chuckebaby »

Offline Ronios

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3890 on: October 26, 2023, 02:55:34 pm »
In the Shady Tavern mission I wanted to stun men in black with electric clubs and couldn’t understand why, when entering the door (closed), they managed to shoot before 2 of my agents started hitting. I started looking at the doors from all sides on behalf of the agents and this is what i saw:
One of the corners of the doorway is cut off and is also visible through. Another similar door has the same problem on the same side (last screenshot).

Edited: The problem is not with the door. If you knock down a door or make a hole in a wall, then all the edges of this type of wall are full of holes.  External, brick walls also have jambs. There need to check all the sets of walls.

Another interesting point. If I remove an agent who is visible, then the second one immediately triggers a reaction and stuns the enemy when he enters. But when the enemy saw my agent at the moment the door opened, he entered the door and attacked before the second agent reacted.

With zombies, like 3 years ago, there are some difficulties with reaction in close combat, but I haven’t figured it out and can’t say for sure. Only that a zombie runs up to your face and stands on one of the 2 side squares from the front one and the agent with full AP and good reactions doesn’t even think about attacking.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2023, 03:14:58 pm by Ronios »

Offline psavola

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3891 on: October 26, 2023, 03:59:17 pm »
Slander missions

I know this is probably subjective but the Slander de-spawn penalty (compared to awarded points) for the completed mission is a bit steep.
I only say this because it is extremely difficult to get to the mission in time. By the time you have a craft in the air, the tracking is lost.

Slander missions have a duration of 2-3 hours. I have always thought that it is intentional that you can't get there in time, especially because are also intentionally forced to use the slow transports (van, car or land rover) even though there is no lore reason to do so. So,  this is clearly designed as an annoying way of giving you -500 points for sharing the tech or leaving cults unfinished.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2023, 04:01:46 pm by psavola »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3892 on: October 26, 2023, 05:06:27 pm »
Sonic Weapons Focusing unlocks both Sonic Shotgun Focused Clip manufacturing and Sonic Shotgun Focused Clip research (that, in turn, unlock Sonic Shotgun Focused Clip manufacturing a second time):
https://xcf.trigramreactor.net/master/article/STR_HUMAN_SONIC_FOCUSED_FIRE

This doesn't change anything. Yes, some prerequisites are redundant, but it's harmless.
(Why is it like this? I don't know, Finnik submitted this part of code, and I was fine with it. Like I said, it doesn't matter.)

I was surprised when I noticed hat MAGMA Chainsawbot's chainsaws aren't chainsaws, but actually auto-shotting firearms with 8 max range. The sprite also does not suggest this. This led to the wreckage of a couple of flying drones.

If you wanted MAGMA chainsawbots to have a ranged weapon, it would have been far more intuitive to make it have two weapons, one melee chainsaw, the other some ranged weapon. Now there seems to be nothing to suggest the chainsaws are actually shotgun-like ranged weapons.

...and why on Earth would I want to make it more predictable? It's one of the very few surprises in the mod...

Speaking of melee. There seems to be no logic to melee weapons damage rolls. About half of them have 50-150% spread (most of them punier ones). About half of them have 0-200 %. A couple have 0-100% + 0-100%. IMHO it makes no sense that the minimum damage of a knife is bigger than a battle axe, for example. I would think 50-150% spread would make most sense for all of them unless there are good reasons to the contrary.

This remark is too general to answer, I'd have to produce a whole thesis. But there are always reasons (well, should be).

Shogg blade description is: "This short sword is too heavy for comfortable use by normal humans, but absolutely devastating when wielded by a stronger fighter. Its terramite edge makes it quite effective against armor." Yet it has armor effectiveness of 1 (the default), just like most other melees weapon that don't have such mentions (compare to a knife, battle axe or hatchet, for example). Did you forget to add an armor effectiveness definition here (or reduce the armor effectiveness of some other basic melee weapons)?

It's just a strong blade, it doesn't specifically have any anti-armour flag.

Honestly, all three points not only aren't bugs, they're can't even be answered in a meaningful way. Unless I wrote a big treaty on weapons and damage, and sorry, I'm not writing one. :)

Slander missions

I know this is probably subjective but the Slander de-spawn penalty (compared to awarded points) for the completed mission is a bit steep.
I only say this because it is extremely difficult to get to the mission in time. By the time you have a craft in the air, the tracking is lost.

...and what the heck would be their point if you could get there normally??? :D

I just noticed this as well. However after having a Sectopod shot a gas grenade at me (on a striker craft mission) I wasn't that surprised  :P
That one was random though. Have only seen it once.

Oops. I really hope this doesn't happen. :P

Should be noted though, i have seen the MAGMA Chainsawbots use the chainsaw mele instead of throwing them (seen both).

Actually, they don't have a melee mode; perhaps they simply "shot" at your unit point blank.

In the Shady Tavern mission I wanted to stun men in black with electric clubs and couldn’t understand why, when entering the door (closed), they managed to shoot before 2 of my agents started hitting. I started looking at the doors from all sides on behalf of the agents and this is what i saw:
One of the corners of the doorway is cut off and is also visible through. Another similar door has the same problem on the same side (last screenshot).

Edited: The problem is not with the door. If you knock down a door or make a hole in a wall, then all the edges of this type of wall are full of holes.  External, brick walls also have jambs. There need to check all the sets of walls.

Another interesting point. If I remove an agent who is visible, then the second one immediately triggers a reaction and stuns the enemy when he enters. But when the enemy saw my agent at the moment the door opened, he entered the door and attacked before the second agent reacted.

Sorry, I'm just not sure what the issue is. Are you saying that a solid wall is not in fact solid? If yes, which one?

With zombies, like 3 years ago, there are some difficulties with reaction in close combat, but I haven’t figured it out and can’t say for sure. Only that a zombie runs up to your face and stands on one of the 2 side squares from the front one and the agent with full AP and good reactions doesn’t even think about attacking.

If there is an issue with reactions, which I really don't think is the case but who knows, please address it to the OXCE developers.

Offline psavola

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3893 on: October 26, 2023, 05:52:32 pm »
This remark is too general to answer, I'd have to produce a whole thesis. But there are always reasons (well, should be).

I was not asking to write a treatise. I was asking if the mod is supposed to have some logic behind melee weapon 0-200% or 50-150% damage rolls (yes/no). If the answer is yes, it would have been nice a hear a one-sentence summary of what it is supposed to be, because I couldn't find anything obvious. But even if the logic could not be summarized, I was asking if the melee weapon damage ranges could be fixed to conform to that logic (whatever it is). To me, the best logic would be to have either 0-200 or 50-150 but not both.

Quote
It's just a strong blade, it doesn't specifically have any anti-armour flag.

As I said, the are numerous similar melee weapons that have the same properties against armor, but nothing is said in their descriptions (or seem even weaker). If you wanted to approach this logically, there would be essentially three choices: 1) remove the text which is misleading (it has no special properties to warrant the description), 2) add some anti-armor properties to the blade to make the description to be correct (for example, anti-armor 0.8 would make it consistent with tritanium knives), or 3) go through other melee weapons which have default anti-armor settings and make them less efficient against armor.

Quote
Honestly, all three points not only aren't bugs, they're can't even be answered in a meaningful way. Unless I wrote a big treaty on weapons and damage, and sorry, I'm not writing one. :)

My intention has been to point out inconsistencies in addition to obvious bugs, because I thought the purpose of the mod and this thread is to make gradual improvements. I'd hope that inconsistencies would be fixed somehow. I don't need a precise description of the logic behind the mod, if there is supposed to be one. But if there isn't supposed to be a logic and/or you have no interest in trying to apply a logic in any case, then I can certainly stop pointing them out.

Offline Chuckebaby

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3894 on: October 26, 2023, 09:34:16 pm »
Slander missions have a duration of 2-3 hours. I have always thought that it is intentional that you can't get there in time, especially because are also intentionally forced to use the slow transports (van, car or land rover) even though there is no lore reason to do so. So,  this is clearly designed as an annoying way of giving you -500 points for sharing the tech or leaving cults unfinished.

Your point is worthy and I agree.
The cult's i do have finished off and still seeing slander missions occasionally pop up.


...and what the heck would be their point if you could get there normally??? :D

Fair point. 500 is a pretty big hit. Other missions similar such as madman I don't believe are even half that, well maybe -300.

But I get it, it does even out the game, makes it more challenging. I often pre save, send a van out on patrol in the area, get it like that if score is in jeopardy/tight that month.

Offline Nerro

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3895 on: October 26, 2023, 10:21:49 pm »
This doesn't change anything. Yes, some prerequisites are redundant, but it's harmless.
(Why is it like this? I don't know, Finnik submitted this part of code, and I was fine with it. Like I said, it doesn't matter.)
Ok, but that means the Sonic Shotgun Focused Clip research is useless.
The only point of doing it is to be able to manufacture those clips, but this is allready given to you at the same time you gain access to the research.
But it not a huge deal anway. It is better to have the manufacturing to soon that not having it XD

Offline Juku121

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3896 on: October 26, 2023, 11:24:45 pm »
Ok, but that means the Sonic Shotgun Focused Clip research is useless.
The only point of doing it is to be able to manufacture those clips, but this is allready given to you at the same time you gain access to the research.
But it not a huge deal anway. It is better to have the manufacturing to soon that not having it
How do you figure that? SSFC manufacturing requires all of SS, Focused Fire and the Clip, and the Clip needs to be researched. All this does is pollute the tech tree with a redundant Focused Fire -> SS Focused Clip dependency. You don't get the blueprints unlocked earlier or anything.



500 is a pretty big hit.
Tell that to a certain individual who has 'Share X tech' with M.A.G.M.A. at -10k to -30k score. :P

I often pre save, send a van out on patrol in the area, get it like that if score is in jeopardy/tight that month.
Yah, savescumming seems to be the only reliable method. Would be neat if there was a semi-secret faster craft allowed, or perhaps you could cultivate some informants who'd give you an earlier heads up. Ah, who am I kidding, Solarius just wants to taunt and torture us. :D



Speaking of Solarius...
...and why on Earth would I want to make it more predictable? It's one of the very few surprises in the mod...
'Realism'? To avoid 'fake difficulty'? I mean, it's a rather underhanded way of providing a surprise. I wouldn't mind if one out of all the chainsawbots on the map carried e.g. a minigun and suprised the player, that'd be both fair and would remain a surprise even after you've seen it once ("Which one is it? Is this one safe? What about this one? Aaahhh, the suspense is killing me!" ;D ). Mind bullets chainsaws on all of them, not so much.

It's just a strong blade, it doesn't specifically have any anti-armour flag.
Yeah, but the description implies it does have something like that. Although the alloy sword also had a weaker version of that issue, and obviously whatever damage/penetration model you have doesn't lead to easy or intuitive explanations. So, eh, maybe just chalk it up to whichever egghead wrote that entry having a bad day. :)

...and what the heck would be their point if you could get there normally???
Some final payoff for brown-nosing the Council all game? ;D Gate it behind not sharing any tech and giving back the sonics, maybe?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2023, 01:27:24 pm by Juku121 »

Offline Ronios

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3897 on: October 27, 2023, 07:10:49 am »
Quote
Sorry, I'm just not sure what the issue is. Are you saying that a solid wall is not in fact solid? If yes, which one?
First, I want to decide what is right and what is wrong. In the first screenshot, 2 agents look at the marked cell (to the west, as far as I understand) and see it. In the 2nd and 3rd screenshots they are seen from the eyes, where you can see that they can see the center of the cell (if there is an enemy there, they will also see each other). In screenshot 4, they look at the corresponding cell inside the building and DO NOT see it (screenshots 5 and 6).
If we look to the north (left and down), we can again see through the corner, but not in the opposite direction.

I tried it on both types of walls on the 1st floor and did not notice any difference between them. I also didn’t notice the difference between the doorways and just a broken piece of wall.

Actually, how should it really be and what of this works correctly? Maybe this is how it’s all meant to be?

Quote
Another interesting point. If I remove an agent who is visible, then the second one immediately triggers a reaction and stuns the enemy when he enters. But when the enemy saw my agent at the moment the door opened, he entered the door and attacked before the second agent reacted.
So what about this moment? Is this also intended or not? If the enemy opens the door and sees through the corner, then by taking a step inside the room he gets action priority over ALL reactions that should work on him, and not just before the one with whom they saw each other at the same time?

Offline Juku121

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3898 on: October 27, 2023, 09:44:30 am »
Can confirm that the angles seem bad, since only one of the four positions in the picture can see the Sectoid, while FPSlook shows a bit of purple for others, too. It seems consistent with most other corners and door edges in the game, though, so not sure this is something Solarius can fix. Perhaps ask in the OXCE subforum?

Is this also intended or not? If the enemy opens the door and sees through the corner, then by taking a step inside the room he gets action priority over ALL reactions that should work on him, and not just before the one with whom they saw each other at the same time?
Yes, see Mutual Surprise. Although he couldn't have seen an agent through the corner before entering, or the 'surprise' wouldn't work.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2023, 09:50:54 am by Juku121 »

Offline Nerro

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3899 on: October 27, 2023, 10:24:03 am »
How do you figure that? SSFC manufacturing requires all of SS, Focused Fire and the Clip, and the Clip needs to be researched. All this does is pollute the tech tree with a redundant Focused Fire -> SS Focused Clip dependency. You don't get the blueprints unlocked earlier or anything.
You do get it earlier, the clip does not need to be reseached to be manufactured. That is the issue that I am reporting.
You can see that on the wiki.
Screen capture of the wiki attached.
Save attached for those who can't read the wiki.

Also, if this is changed, be carefull, clip deconstruction is not duplicated. If it is removed from Weapon Focusing, it will need to be added to the Focused Clip research.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2023, 10:33:14 am by Nerro »