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Author Topic: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste  (Read 1237834 times)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3225 on: July 12, 2022, 09:46:52 am »
Does "GravLift" only work for ground tiles? I really wish there was some better documentation for the mapeditor and MCD entries.

Yes, you need this to be a floor.

Not sure if it's a bug, but who is meeting whom exactly in the T'leth Embassy? There's only a Sorcerer and a bunch of Deep Ones and maybe Gillmen. The latter seem to be serving the Cult already, going by garrison rolls in bigger Dagonite installations.

Yeah, they meet up with Deep Ones. Naturally, more important ones than the chumps that get assigned to the cult.
I could make it Aquatoids instead, but you're not supposed to meet them before setting the trap.

Edit: The Spirit of Dagon is back! And this time it's not some cultist's pointy head sticking out from the ground (unless they've learned digging in the meanwhile :P ).

I appreciate the humour, but I have no idea what you're talking about... Are you referencing that old bug where a unit below obstructed the pathway on the upper floor?

Edit2: Are the ghosts meant to not show their weapons on the Battlescape?

Umm, depends which ghosts. Can you elaborate?

Edit3: What's this place supposed to be? Is it where they put the plank? :P

...Yes! :D

Noticed the Tritanium Kukri isn't in the listed weapons for the Warrior award so doesn't give the award for using it, just a small thing since everyone else probably used the tritanium knife instead which does give Warrior awards but thought would mention anyway.

Ouch, sorry. Fixed, will be awarded retroactively after you update.

This is probably not intended: Dart weapons (and probably the vampire bite, too) suffer from an invisible nerf. Namely, non-stun-damage weapons that do mainly stun damage get said stun damage randomised, effectively halving their damage. And I wondered what made them so bad.

Well, they were balanced for this mechanic... I( could change this and also make them weaker.

I had a problematic map in the Vampire Castle for multiple reasons.

(...)

We've made a few fixes to this map, but apparently not enough.
Still, it's rather hard to pinpoint the problems without a save...

What are these? Sandgulls? ::)

Haven't I fixed this a few months ago?

Offline Juku121

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3226 on: July 12, 2022, 11:23:55 am »
Yeah, they meet up with Deep Ones. Naturally, more important ones than the chumps that get assigned to the cult.
I could make it Aquatoids instead, but you're not supposed to meet them before setting the trap.
But I met the Aquatoids before hitting the Embassy! It seems that the Embassy is actually an alternative route to the Comm Device via Sorcerers instead of Deep Ones. I thought this was a hierarchy since I'd already met the Seatoids.

These Deep Ones don't look particularly different from the ones guarding the more important Dagonite bases, either.

...I have no idea what you're talking about... Are you referencing that old bug where a unit below obstructed the pathway on the upper floor?
Yep. There's some invisible crap blocking movement there.

Umm, depends which ghosts. Can you elaborate?
Ancient Sea Ghosts in this case. They're wielding invisible cutlasses.

Well, they were balanced for this mechanic... I( could change this and also make them weaker.
We've now had three people say dart guns are crap in close succession. I suggest a weapon that effectively does 15 or 18 stun damage after a considerable R&D investment is not balanced. I tested it on a maxed agent with some transformations, and a BO shotgun with baton shells vs a Dart rifle with 'A' darts has:
  • Same or better aimed shot accuracy up to 30 tiles. Much better at close range.
  • Same or better snap shot accuracy up to 20 tiles. Again, much better at close range.
  • Worse armor penetration (0-50 vs 125% armour; 0-72 vs 100% armour) but better damage (average 33.75 stun+HP vs 21.6 stun+HP). Edit: If the armour lacks any relevant damage resistance, beanbags do on average more damage for all armour values up to 25. That is actually fairly substantial as far as human equipment goes. Darts of course tend to have less enemies resistant to them, so there's that. /edit
It's pretty much a sidegrade that requires a lot of investment in research and manufacturing. I commonly had to just fill an enemy with darts, vs 2-3 beanbag shots from a shotgun, assuming their armour was not too resistant. If it was, clubbing them on the head or tasing them was usually a better proposition. The only real niche for the dart weapons is when you have someone you really need to take alive and walking closer to him is suicide. Not that common, actually.

Maybe the other two toxins work better, but I'm far happier with my tweaked version where a regular human enemy takes 1-3 darts (assuming they don't bounce off the armour) and goes to sleep.

And even if you think they are balanced, a weapon with 50% armour effectiveness and 15 or 18 damage is virtually indistinguishable and much more transparent to the player than this obscure mechanic. It's not even clear from merely looking at the INFO what is going on.

Haven't I fixed this a few months ago?
Maybe, but if it was earlier than May 30 then you missed some.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2022, 07:13:53 pm by Juku121 »

Offline krautbernd

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3227 on: July 12, 2022, 08:37:39 pm »
But I met the Aquatoids before hitting the Embassy! It seems that the Embassy is actually an alternative route to the Comm Device via Sorcerers instead of Deep Ones. I thought this was a hierarchy since I'd already met the Seatoids.
The embassy isn't continuation of the Dagon arc if that's what you mean by hierarchy. The embassy can be skipped entirely, as far as I can tell (maybe Solarius can clarify on this) it's purpose is indeed to prevent players getting locked out of the T'leth arc.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3228 on: July 12, 2022, 08:50:25 pm »
The embassy isn't continuation of the Dagon arc...
But it is? The research triggers are either a live Sorcerer or killing the entire cult off altogether. If anything, the Deep Ones are not a direct continuation.

The embassy can be skipped entirely, as far as I can tell (maybe Solarius can clarify on this) it's purpose is indeed to prevent players getting locked out of the T'leth arc.
Well, unless I'm mistaken there is no way to bypass the 'Deep One Outposts' requirement for Call of T'leth without actually researching a Deep One, so the entire Embassy mission is a red green herring. ;D

Offline Rag

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3229 on: July 12, 2022, 10:47:40 pm »
We've made a few fixes to this map, but apparently not enough.
Still, it's rather hard to pinpoint the problems without a save...

Ah sorry didn't know a save of the map would help, not sure at what point being saved is best but will add a save during mission I still have. (new to the bug reporting stuff sorry)

Had another buggy level generation in Beyond the Doom Portal map which locked me into the starting area. But since this was the start of the map it was easy to fix by re-loading geomap and activing save scumming to get a new level generation which worked fine the second time, but thought would mention it anyway just incase it helps to know.

Offline Vakrug

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3230 on: July 13, 2022, 06:15:23 pm »
There is something really strange with grass in beach missions (Osiron Resort and Deep Ones doing sacrifices).
A dog cannot bite when standing on grass (says no one is here), at least not from all sides.
A tank (more specifically the one with tritanium rockets) cannot fire while standing on flat grass and aiming on someone on the same elevation (says no line of fire). If you press control to force fire, then rocket explodes right in front of the tank.
If you press F10 and see first person perspective, you see that grass is taller then you think it would be.
May be I am wrong, but I think this was not an issue in version 2.4.
Sorry, no saves of screenshots, forgot to make them due to frustration...  >:(

Offline krautbernd

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3231 on: July 13, 2022, 06:39:19 pm »
Had another buggy level generation in Beyond the Doom Portal map which locked me into the starting area.
Reported the same bug some time ago, seems to be harder to fix than anticipated.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3232 on: July 13, 2022, 09:41:46 pm »
Yeah, they meet up with Deep Ones. Naturally, more important ones than the chumps that get assigned to the cult.
Actually, what do you mean by this? There are only Deep One Servants at the Embassy. And perhaps a Gillman or two. Are the Gillmen doing the negotiating? :o

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3233 on: July 14, 2022, 01:13:20 pm »
But I met the Aquatoids before hitting the Embassy! It seems that the Embassy is actually an alternative route to the Comm Device via Sorcerers instead of Deep Ones. I thought this was a hierarchy since I'd already met the Seatoids.

OK, let's dissect this:

Code: [Select]
  - type: embassyOfTlethEarly0
    researchTriggers:
      STR_MESSENGERS_OF_DAGON: true <- requires STR_SORCERER_OF_DAGON
      STR_UNDERWATER_OPERATIONS: true


  - type: AquatoidTrap
    researchTriggers:
      STR_CALL_OF_TLETH: true <- requires STR_DEEP_ONE_OUTPOST <- requires STR_UNDERWATER_OPERATIONS

So the embassy is clearly easier to get, as it only requires a Sorcerer of Dagon (and Underwater Ops, but the same applies to the Aquatoid Trap mission).

But the real question is, will this break any flow in the research? Long story short, I think no, as long as you'll be meeting onlty Aquatoid Soldiers (since they don't seem to open any later missions, except T'leth recons and surveys, which is okay).

On the other hand, I think meeting aquatoids might be slightly off conceptually; Deep Ones legends (from H.P. Lovecraft and such) kinda don't fit thematically, since Aquatoids come from a different story. Nevertheless, I have decided to add one Aquatoid soldier to the embassy deployment. I hope it won't ruin the aesthetics too much. :)

Yep. There's some invisible crap blocking movement there.

Yep, it's a fern. Not a bug, but since it can't be seen behind the wall, I changed this part.

Ancient Sea Ghosts in this case. They're wielding invisible cutlasses.

I see, many thanks. Fixed.

We've now had three people say dart guns are crap in close succession. I suggest a weapon that effectively does 15 or 18 stun damage after a considerable R&D investment is not balanced. (...)

Considering that this part is due for a revamp (rolling all 3 levels into one and changing the remaining 2 clips to other damage types, namely Bio and anti-E-115), I am not fixinf this now. But I see your point.

And even if you think they are balanced, a weapon with 50% armour effectiveness and 15 or 18 damage is virtually indistinguishable and much more transparent to the player than this obscure mechanic. It's not even clear from merely looking at the INFO what is going on.

I'm not fully convinced, since now they behave as any other vanilla weapon. Wouldn't this change be more confusing? Or should I change how all stun weapons work?

Maybe, but if it was earlier than May 30 then you missed some.

OK, this was pretty elusive, but I think I got this. Fixed.

Ah sorry didn't know a save of the map would help, not sure at what point being saved is best but will add a save during mission I still have. (new to the bug reporting stuff sorry)

No worries, but without a save I don't have much to check... Except all the maps, all the tiles. Considering this is the vampire castle, just no. :D

Had another buggy level generation in Beyond the Doom Portal map which locked me into the starting area. But since this was the start of the map it was easy to fix by re-loading geomap and activing save scumming to get a new level generation which worked fine the second time, but thought would mention it anyway just incase it helps to know.

FFS, it's not a bug nor it requires reloading... Just dig. It can happen in many underground locations, by the way.


There is something really strange with grass in beach missions (Osiron Resort and Deep Ones doing sacrifices).
A dog cannot bite when standing on grass (says no one is here), at least not from all sides.
A tank (more specifically the one with tritanium rockets) cannot fire while standing on flat grass and aiming on someone on the same elevation (says no line of fire). If you press control to force fire, then rocket explodes right in front of the tank.
If you press F10 and see first person perspective, you see that grass is taller then you think it would be.
May be I am wrong, but I think this was not an issue in version 2.4.
Sorry, no saves of screenshots, forgot to make them due to frustration...  >:(

Yeah yeah, the old tall grass problem, stemming from the fact that it blocks the line of attack. Not much that can be done, except making the grass shorter (and I'm not sure it's critical enough).

Reported the same bug some time ago, seems to be harder to fix than anticipated.

NOT A BUG, DOESN'T NEED FIXING.

Actually, what do you mean by this? There are only Deep One Servants at the Embassy. And perhaps a Gillman or two. Are the Gillmen doing the negotiating? :o

Considering the new addition, this is probably irrelevant... ;)

Offline Juku121

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3234 on: July 14, 2022, 01:52:09 pm »
OK, let's dissect this:
Okay. But:
Code: [Select]
  - type: embassyOfTlethEarly0
    researchTriggers:
      STR_MESSENGERS_OF_DAGON: true <- requires STR_SORCERER_OF_DAGON
      STR_UNDERWATER_OPERATIONS: true <- requires STR_DEEP_ONE_COMMUNITIES <- requires STR_DEEP_ONE
Same as the Aquatoid Trap, except you also need a Sorcerer but not the Deep One Outpost.

So the embassy is clearly easier to get, as it only requires a Sorcerer of Dagon (and Underwater Ops, but the same applies to the Aquatoid Trap mission).
The difference is between a live Sorcerer and some more research time to get Deep One Outpost. IMO, research time is easier to come by than a live Sorcerer, though not by much.

But the real question is, will this break any flow in the research?
No. But I think the real real :D question is what the Embassy actually does for the player? Nothing, really, as far as I can tell.

Long story short, I think no, as long as you'll be meeting onlty Aquatoid Soldiers (since they don't seem to open any later missions, except T'leth recons and surveys, which is okay).
But there are no Aquatoid Soldiers in the Embassy! Only a Sorcerer (who you must have had already), Deep One Servants (the 'chumps') and maybe a Gillman or two (can also be caught on land).

Nevertheless, I have decided to add one Aquatoid soldier to the embassy deployment. I hope it won't ruin the aesthetics too much. :)
Yay? If you're adding one then there's now an actual point in doing that mission because Aquatoid Soldiers unlock some USOs (which I've never seen (yet?)) and some T'leth creature research.

On the other hand, I think meeting aquatoids might be slightly off conceptually; Deep Ones legends (from H.P. Lovecraft and such) kinda don't fit thematically, since Aquatoids come from a different story.
Well, okay, but who are the 'masters', then? And what story?

I also don't like the Deep One <-> Gillman switch, exactly because of this. The TFTD Deep Ones and Gillmen were only vaguely inspired by Lovecraft, and Aquatoids were entirely made up AFAICT. But it's your lore now.

Yep, it's a fern.
Ninja fern? :)

I see, many thanks. Fixed.
You might also want to check your new Romans and whoever else for such things.

Considering that this part is due for a revamp (rolling all 3 levels into one and changing the remaining 2 clips to other damage types, namely Bio and anti-E-115), I am not fixinf this now. But I see your point.
Good! Though having one upgrade (e.g. Stun I, Stun II, Bio I, Bio II, E-115) would be nicer and make capturing alien creatures more worthwhile.

I'm not fully convinced, since now they behave as any other vanilla weapon. Wouldn't this change be more confusing? Or should I change how all stun weapons work?
No other stun weapon except the vampire bite has this kind of sneaky mechanic. I checked. And something that requires you to spend not insignificant effort to reverse engineer the data is by default much more confusing than something working exactly like everything else. :P



Edit: Although an Aquatoid Soldier also feels kinda out of place. Why would a Soldier be sent to represent the 'masters'?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2022, 02:07:05 pm by Juku121 »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3235 on: July 14, 2022, 03:07:18 pm »
I also don't like the Deep One <-> Gillman switch, exactly because of this. The TFTD Deep Ones and Gillmen were only vaguely inspired by Lovecraft, and Aquatoids were entirely made up AFAICT. But it's your lore now.

Everyone knows what a Deep One is. Not just from the Lovecraft (mostly from him, though). What TFTD did was just... what's a nice word... disputable. And considering how the entire game was written, it was probably more of an accident than a conscious design decision.

Ninja fern? :)

A normal little fern that put up brave resistance when the Fire Nation X-Com attacked!

You might also want to check your new Romans and whoever else for such things.

It's the same weapon (at least for now), so no issue.

Good! Though having one upgrade (e.g. Stun I, Stun II, Bio I, Bio II, E-115) would be nicer and make capturing alien creatures more worthwhile.

Perhaps, but let's start with just one level.

No other stun weapon except the vampire bite has this kind of sneaky mechanic. I checked. And something that requires you to spend not insignificant effort to reverse engineer the data is by default much more confusing than something working exactly like everything else. :P

Understood. Okay, since you're familiar with the rulesets, can I ask you to provide a suggestion for modification (as in actual code)? I just want to make sure that we're on the same page.

Edit: Although an Aquatoid Soldier also feels kinda out of place. Why would a Soldier be sent to represent the 'masters'?

Aquatoids aren't like Cydonians, they don't specialize that much and are way more free-thinking. Besides, all Aquatoids are smart and mean in ways that are more human than Cydonians. Long story short, it doesn't strike me as very strange if an Aquatoid soldier performs a low-level diplomacy mission, they are capable of that.

Offline Juku121

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3236 on: July 14, 2022, 03:58:31 pm »
Everyone knows what a Deep One is. Not just from the Lovecraft (mostly from him, though). What TFTD did was just... what's a nice word... disputable. And considering how the entire game was written, it was probably more of an accident than a conscious design decision.
Well, at least we didn't get the western-themed X-Com 2. ::)

One man's disputable is another man's original content. :P

Okay, since you're familiar with the rulesets, can I ask you to provide a suggestion for modification (as in actual code)?
Something like this:
  - type: STR_DART_RIFLE_CLIP_A
    power: 18                        <- from 36
    damageAlter:
      RandomStun: false         <- from true
      ArmorEffectiveness: 0.5  <- from 1.0
Edit: If you want to retain the HP and tile damage:
      ToTile: 0.2                      <- from 0.1
      ToHealth: 0.2                  <- from 0.1

I'd probably buff it to about 20-24 damage, too. Maybe even more, if the higher-tier stun darts are taken away.
/edit

Aquatoids aren't like Cydonians, they don't specialize that much and are way more free-thinking. Besides, all Aquatoids are smart and mean in ways that are more human than Cydonians. Long story short, it doesn't strike me as very strange if an Aquatoid soldier performs a low-level diplomacy mission, they are capable of that.
Okay, makes sense. There should be something in-game to tell us that, though. TFTD Aquatoids were pretty much the same mass-produced little fuckers as the Sectoids of the original.

At least change the naming scheme from Soldier to something else. Even Technician or Specialist would work.

A normal little fern that put up brave resistance when the Fire Nation X-Com attacked!
Next time, I'm taking the machetes... Wait, machetes don't work on small vegetation! :o Darn, foiled again!
« Last Edit: July 14, 2022, 09:53:46 pm by Juku121 »

Offline Rag

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3237 on: July 17, 2022, 01:14:43 am »
FFS, it's not a bug nor it requires reloading... Just dig. It can happen in many underground locations, by the way.

Oh I was used to missions briefing mentioning if digging might be needed like cyberweb sewers, I tried using a blaster bomb but it just dented the outer wall without digging through so I thought these thick walls were not possible to dig through. I had the follow up map where an enemy was locked behind a wall and used the plasma cutter tool a few times to crack into the wall but I just assumed first one was like the walls in a base defence mission. Sorry for listing it as a bug if it wasn't one.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2022, 01:16:24 am by Rag »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3238 on: July 22, 2022, 11:16:50 am »
Something like this:
  - type: STR_DART_RIFLE_CLIP_A
    power: 18                        <- from 36
    damageAlter:
      RandomStun: false         <- from true
      ArmorEffectiveness: 0.5  <- from 1.0
Edit: If you want to retain the HP and tile damage:
      ToTile: 0.2                      <- from 0.1
      ToHealth: 0.2                  <- from 0.1

I'd probably buff it to about 20-24 damage, too. Maybe even more, if the higher-tier stun darts are taken away.

All right, thanks. I'll save it for later evaluation, whne I tackle the darts.
But what about ArmorEffectiveness? Why does this change come from?

Okay, makes sense. There should be something in-game to tell us that, though.

Why tell when you show? The very presence of an Aquatoid on this mission shows it.

TFTD Aquatoids were pretty much the same mass-produced little fuckers as the Sectoids of the original.

Yeah, since everytihng was exactly the same as in the original... Yeah, I don't like TFTD that much, it was almost a scam. but this is not on topic.

At least change the naming scheme from Soldier to something else. Even Technician or Specialist would work.

A new convention for TFTD ranks? OK, I don't like soldier too much; but obviously not engineer or specialist, since it's a different rank.

Next time, I'm taking the machetes... Wait, machetes don't work on small vegetation! :o Darn, foiled again!

Oh I was used to missions briefing mentioning if digging might be needed like cyberweb sewers, I tried using a blaster bomb but it just dented the outer wall without digging through so I thought these thick walls were not possible to dig through. I had the follow up map where an enemy was locked behind a wall and used the plasma cutter tool a few times to crack into the wall but I just assumed first one was like the walls in a base defence mission. Sorry for listing it as a bug if it wasn't one.

No problem. Early such missions have a tip about digging, but not all of them - after all, the player already knows. As evidenced by your solution. :)

Offline Juku121

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #3239 on: July 22, 2022, 11:57:17 am »
But what about ArmorEffectiveness? Why does this change come from?
AFAIK, toHealth/toStun/RandomStun only apply after armour has been penetrated. So if you had 36 damage, that would have been weighed against armour, and then whatever value penetrates gets adjusted by toStun and RandomStun and so on.

So while the current stun darts suck at doing damage, they're quite a bit better at armour penetration than beanbag ammo etc.

Why tell when you show? The very presence of an Aquatoid on this mission shows it.

...but this is not on topic.
It doesn't tell us that Aquatoids are mean little motherfuckers who don't specialise in anything but cussedness. :P

And it's on topic as long as there's no blurb on Aquatoid society telling the player that these are not your granddaddy's Aquatoids.



Edit: Is the Mysterious Parcel from Syndicate still supposed to be in the game?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2022, 09:32:47 am by Juku121 »