Re: The X-Com Files - 3.5: Whispers In The Dark

[psavola]

Based on earlier discussion, I guess you're just supposed to be able to figure out to take those out with shrapnel rockets or face major pain.

[Juku121]

Shrapnel charges and rockets are hideously effective, yes. I still consider them a sort of cheat, just like the weird sniper-spotter stuff, for both sides (spotting upon death on the enemies' part, abusing grenade ranges and no spotting on indirect damage/kills on the players').

What also mostly works are heavy lasers (scatter and the two cannons), heavy plasma guns (Precision Plasma, Plasma Destroyer, X-Com and alien Heavy Plasmas, Plasma Snipers), heavy rockets (Elerium missiles for the Advanded Launcher can kill both turrets on one side in about 3 shots, but there are a number of anti-armour weapons here, including those shrapnel missiles), Pulse LMG with chem rounds, Gauss Snipers. Blaster Bombs, perhaps, but it takes 2-3 shots.

Oh, yeah, and the BFG.

[Vakrug]

Hmm... Save, please?

What exactly this save will show? Aren't I am just unlucky with Etherials? (Also, I have a habit to name my agents with my credit cards numbers, so I would like to not share the save file unless it is absolutely needed...)

The whole new end game setup is not that well tested.

What do you mean by "new end game"? Something different from Satellite --> Moon surface --> Long Corridor --> Moon City --> Moon City --> Moon City --> Below Moon City --> Cidonia?

I don't think it's a big problem of itself, vanilla also works like this.

Not exactly. In vanilla you shoot down ufos primary because otherwise they will fly away from you single radar.

XCF at least added several missions where you MUST shoot down something difficult.

And what is that?

Like you mentioned, timed missions just aren't very nice.

Mostly because you can't "extend" time by completing some objectives. And let's not forget about last hiding aliens.

[Juku121]

What exactly this save will show?

Whether you've been absent-minded and missed an existing chance, or never had a chance to begin with, I guess? Or whether you've missed some other prerequisite, or maybe the progression is buggy and your save is a good showcase for this.

Aren't I am just unlucky with Etherials?

No, you need the MiB Commander before you can start playing with the Ethereals for real.

And what is that?

In addition to Terror and Retaliation and various small scout ships and escorts (including T'leth craft), we got Domination, Flyby, Diplomacy and the Ethereal Command ship. Plus other factions' retaliation, MiB Freight, and some other small MiB and miscellaneous shadow faction craft.

I'm not convinced that's truly enticing for the player to consider regularly engaging UFOs, but it's there, as Solarius said.

Mostly because you can't "extend" time by completing some objectives. And let's not forget about last hiding aliens.

Nah, players hate even over-generous timers with a passion. You can more or less prove that if they put in even minimal effort, the timers will never matter, and they will still not like them.

Finding the last alien is why bughunt mode exists. It can be set on a mission basis as well.

[Solarius Scorch]

Bases? MiB Outposts are already included in the 10%, what other sources are there? The Wiki says the only other source is on the Moon, and that's when you've already gotten one Commander. I haven't really combed the files, but I don't recall other sources ATM.

You're probably right. Well, I guess I'll bump the odds for bases from 3% per month to... hmm, maybe 8%? Or keep it at 3% but duplicate the script? Decisions, decisions.

Well, what do the others get in return for inferior stats? Some night vision and a modicum of armour? Doesn't seem to be worth even +20 TU, at least not for most agents, and many other types are even more behind.

*shrug* All classes have advantages. I think this assessment is not fair, or at least poorly articulated. But I understand that it's a late game things, so it's not easy to study in depth.

I mean, I haven't played in a while, so I don't have any strong opinions (yet), but at a glance Spartans do seem to obsolete anyone who's not a specialised scout or a psion.

I wouldn't dismiss being able to resurrect an agent either, for example.
I personally think stats, while important, are a bit overestimated, at least at high levels.

Well, personally I would like the pressure, and you can avoid the pressure by shooting down the UFO.

But I'm a savescummer, have generally strange tastes and I've seen a lot of people voicing their hatred of constant timed missions in various tactical games.

Yeah, screw them. I mean, there are some in the XCF, but having all UFOs work like this would be rather painful.

Based on my limited experience what affects this most is how soon you get Cult Forward Base mission after interrogating the leader captured at an outpost. (And at what point you go for the outposts.) As I have already mentioned earlier in this thread, in my current SH game it took over about 15 months(!!) to get Exalt and Dagon forward base mission. I got both of them only in January 1999 and I was already starting to wonder if the mission scripts were broken in some way. By that time, those cults had managed to spawn quite a few manors even though I killed them off almost on a monthly basis - the total count is 10 at the moment.

This sounds like everything is okay, no? Efficient playing is rewarded, while doing poorly is inconvenient (but not catastrophic).

If the RNG does not grant you the possibility to terminate the cult, it's quite likely it keeps spawning manors for much longer than and the probabilities mount up.

The RNG impacts many things, but dealing with cults, eh- not really. Or at least it's pretty unlikely.

I know I've mentioned this before but what's your opinion on the alien terrorist attacks, specifically the 4 laser turrets ?? Those things have like deadly accuracy from 100 tiles (on beginner).

My opinion is that this is the way to make these missions appropriately significant. Before they were rather underwhelming, compared to other missions.

But also, aliens doing terror missions gradually makes less and less sense within the context of XCF development (I can't see what the aliens could gain by doing them). I'll probably remove them, or rehash them into something else.

[Vakrug]

No, you need the MiB Commander before you can start playing with the Ethereals for real.

That really sucks if it is true.
https://xcf.trigramreactor.net/master/article/STR_THE_LUNAR_TRAIL
According to this link, you need either a commander (not any will do), either an ethereal. In my playthrough I have researched the Chaser Commander, but it looks like he was inferior one.

[Juku121]

You're probably right. Well, I guess I'll bump the odds for bases from 3% per month to... hmm, maybe 8%? Or keep it at 3% but duplicate the script? Decisions, decisions.

I think even 8%+10% is still too low. Even the 33% for the Arbiter might be. Remember, this is a plot-critical mission (or missions). If these don't spawn, you're stuck.

All classes have advantages. I think this assessment is not fair, or at least poorly articulated.

So, besides armour and night vision, Proteans have immortality (which is more of a scout thing, and is shared with AIs), Olympians/Hybrids have psi (and some flight) and Infernals have... No loss of psi and stats somewhere between Spartans and the rest? Kyberi have their special armour and most of the NV and armour boosts, plus some 'go brrr faster' boosts.

Am I missing something? It still looks like you want mostly Spartans and some Kyberi/AIs as scouts. Psions are their own thing and aren't changed much by super-stats-but-no-psi competition.

I mean, there are some in the XCF, but having all UFOs work like this would be rather painful.

Well, the idea was that you can remove this pain at the cost of a bunch of loot and having a good air game. It's not forced on the player. But it'd still be a big departure and would probably irk most people.

This sounds like everything is okay, no? Efficient playing is rewarded, while doing poorly is inconvenient (but not catastrophic).

10 manors sounds moderately bad, and I think psavola's point was that 'efficient play' was meaningless here - if the missions don't spawn, all you can do is put out fires and hope for the best. Nothing proactive can be done.



Edit:

According to this link, you need either a commander (not any will do), either an ethereal. In my playthrough I have researched the Chaser Commander, but it looks like he was inferior one.

You need the MiB and Ethereal Commanders for the second moon mission, not the first, or satellite development. But that mission gates the endgame, so without both of them, you're stuck.

[Warface]

I'm following a game Dioxine plays right now, cults are mostly finished, and I haven't seen a SINGLE manor in the whole campaign. I have no idea how people get so many (when I played last, I got 3 or 4).

What difficulty are you playing on? And what month is it?

Genius difficulty. As of Sept 1998 I have cleared 3 "baby" manors, leaving at least 8 large manors active. Those are impossible to assail due to the 10-round ~FU~ reinforcements. Timed missions = FU missions. Nonsensical in terms of "game time" and no fun at all to play. I'm wondering if I can just ignore them, like... forever. I hate them. Maybe around endgame when we're all in PA with BLs or whatever XCF's equivalents are. /shrug

edit: I should add that I have put off the Cult "Operations" tree and the Osprey up until now, as this is my first playthrough and I tend to hold off on "Affects Progression" techs until I've cleared up to a certain point. I'm well past that point now and should have Ospreys online soon. So I'll be fielding more troops etc. but in the meantime I have no interest in trying to clean up 8+ timed missions with 60+ enemies each. Just ugly blips that will be on my globe for months if not years to come.

[Chuckebaby]

My opinion is that this is the way to make these missions appropriately significant. Before they were rather underwhelming, compared to other missions.

But also, aliens doing terror missions gradually makes less and less sense within the context of XCF development (I can't see what the aliens could gain by doing them). I'll probably remove them, or rehash them into something else.

I think you might be right. Honestly, I like these mission a lot because of their difficulty level. And your pretty fair about score. I've had horrible terror missions and still landed a pretty decent score. So that balances it out well. The 1000 penalty is steep but I still like these missions and that death craft battleship they fly in on.

[Solarius Scorch]

I think even 8%+10% is still too low. Even the 33% for the Arbiter might be. Remember, this is a plot-critical mission (or missions). If these don't spawn, you're stuck.

But we're talking a permanent base, not some UFO that buzzes across the sky to disappear for a month!
Also, MiB bases can start appearing mid-game, they aren't unlocked by some particular research or anything.

So, besides armour and night vision, Proteans have immortality (which is more of a scout thing, and is shared with AIs), Olympians/Hybrids have psi (and some flight) and Infernals have... No loss of psi and stats somewhere between Spartans and the rest? Kyberi have their special armour and most of the NV and armour boosts, plus some 'go brrr faster' boosts.

Am I missing something? It still looks like you want mostly Spartans and some Kyberi/AIs as scouts. Psions are their own thing and aren't changed much by super-stats-but-no-psi competition.

There is one more important thing: regeneration of energy, stun and health*. Ands also psi defence. I believe it to be more impactful than a few points here and there.

*Health regeneration in this context doesn't mean you get your HP back, but losing HP slower due to shock.

Well, the idea was that you can remove this pain at the cost of a bunch of loot and having a good air game. It's not forced on the player. But it'd still be a big departure and would probably irk most people.

Yeah. But I am even more concerned with the overall tone of the mod, which such a thing would impact immensely. I just don't know, man.

10 manors sounds moderately bad, and I think psavola's point was that 'efficient play' was meaningless here - if the missions don't spawn, all you can do is put out fires and hope for the best. Nothing proactive can be done.

No, the entire godamn point of manors is that they are preventable. That's why they were added. They appear when your anti-cult activity in the region is insufficient.
Just please don't ask me how exactly it works, I wrote it (with help) years ago and I'm not going to relearn how.

Genius difficulty.

Well, it is almost the highest... I certainly wouldn't pick it for a game I don't know very well.

As of Sept 1998 I have cleared 3 "baby" manors, leaving at least 8 large manors active. Those are impossible to assail due to the 10-round ~FU~ reinforcements. Timed missions = FU missions. Nonsensical in terms of "game time" and no fun at all to play. I'm wondering if I can just ignore them, like... forever. I hate them. Maybe around endgame when we're all in PA with BLs or whatever XCF's equivalents are. /shrug

Sadly I don't have enough experience with such a situation. But I think ignoring them is fine. In time they will grow into something even more serious, but it might be preferable for you.

I think you might be right. Honestly, I like these mission a lot because of their difficulty level. And your pretty fair about score. I've had horrible terror missions and still landed a pretty decent score. So that balances it out well. The 1000 penalty is steep but I still like these missions and that death craft battleship they fly in on.

OK, good to hear. Ideally I'd like to keep these missions mechanically, but somehow change the story behind them.

[psavola]

No, the entire godamn point of manors is that they are preventable. That's why they were added. They appear when your anti-cult activity in the region is insufficient.

They are not absolutely preventable. The RNG might still screw you. I had to wait for about 15 months for Cult Base mission to come up for two cults. I did everything the game provided and the manors still kept spawning. So I don't think it's fair to say that my anti-cult activities were insufficient.

I realize that I was having bad luck with RNG. But if this can happen for 15 months, it surely can also go on for 6 or 9 months. During which time many manors could spawn and the player can do nothing to prevent it.

To minimize this, I also suggested to significantly increase the chances of spawning Cult Forward Bases so that the mod would actually provide the player with sufficient chance of anti-cult activities to prevent manor spam.

[Solarius Scorch]

They are not absolutely preventable. The RNG might still screw you. I had to wait for about 15 months for Cult Base mission to come up for two cults. I did everything the game provided and the manors still kept spawning. So I don't think it's fair to say that my anti-cult activities were insufficient.

That is true. But such is the nature of RNG-based campaigns; you can also get screwed in other ways, even if steps are taken to prevent it. And with manors, the leash is not particularly tight.

To minimize this, I also suggested to significantly increase the chances of spawning Cult Forward Bases so that the mod would actually provide the player with sufficient chance of anti-cult activities to prevent manor spam.

I've been considering that, but I often get complaints that there are too many.

[psavola]

I've been considering that, but I often get complaints that there are too many.

There are a couple of ways to mitigate 'mission spam', but that would require a slightly different definitions in mission scripts.

The first one would be using more 'labels' and 'conditionals' to ensure that you don't get multiple similar missions in a single month. This is used very little in XCF.

The second one would be using 'startDelay' instead of a month-long randomDelay and to more actively stagger the missions. In some other mods (eg. TWoTS) this is actually the primary way to ensure that you don't get important missions that overlap. This is not used at all in the mod.

For example, if one cult base had startDelay 0, the second one 10080 (one week), the third 20160 (two weeks) and the fourth 30240 (three weeks), with randomdelays reduced to 10000 or even kept as is, you wouldn't at the very least get these at the same time.

Another solution would be to just increase the spawn chance of forward bases, but decrease the chance or stop spawning them once you have researched the commander. This is actually the missionScripts strategy for many other missions (ie. high chance at first and the chance is reduced after you have obtained the main thing the mission is for). That way they wouldn't actively spawn for many months until the cult is terminated, but you would still get a good chance to go for the HQ.

[Solarius Scorch]

The first one would be using more 'labels' and 'conditionals' to ensure that you don't get multiple similar missions in a single month. This is used very little in XCF.

The second one would be using 'startDelay' instead of a month-long randomDelay and to more actively stagger the missions. In some other mods (eg. TWoTS) this is actually the primary way to ensure that you don't get important missions that overlap. This is not used at all in the mod.

Yeah, I'm aware of such tools. I'm not going to use them, though. They're cheats.

Another solution would be to just increase the spawn chance of forward bases, but decrease the chance or stop spawning them once you have researched the commander. This is actually the missionScripts strategy for many other missions (ie. high chance at first and the chance is reduced after you have obtained the main thing the mission is for). That way they wouldn't actively spawn for many months until the cult is terminated, but you would still get a good chance to go for the HQ.

Yeah I guess I could, but once you have the cult VIP, what's the point? Just finish them.

[psavola]

Yeah I guess I could, but once you have the cult VIP, what's the point? Just finish them.

That's precisely my point. You should significantly increase the chances of Cult Forward Bases until you have researched the Cult VIP, so that you give players a better chance finish the cults.

Currently the probability of Cult Forward Base is relatively low and you may need to wait for the base for a long time, and therefore you cannot finish the cult (except Red Dawn, because you can get the VIP also from Durathread Factory mission).

EDIT: to illustrate the point, the probability of not getting a Cult Forward Base mission for a specific cult in a month is 72 % (until Jan 1999, when the probabilities increase significantly). The probability that you don't get one for three months is 38 % and for six months, respectively, still 14 %. For nine months, it's a bit over 5 %. There's still about 2 % chance that you have to wait for at least a year. Hopefully this shows that getting delayed is not just a RNG glitch but getting significantly delayed (say 3 months or more) could happen quite frequently given that you also have four cults to deal with.