Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N9.7.7 12-Sep-2024 Second Coming

[Greep]

Probably year based.  First one was just drifters for me.

[Dioxine]

Probably year based.  First one was just drifters for me.

To some degree. There is small chance for bogeymen or zombies from year 2 onwards.

[LuigiWhatif]

What would the strategy be for a zombie party?  I don't remember seeing any blades in the club.  Is there an obscure melee weapon that I can bring into the mission?

[Greep]

@luigi pretty sure impossible heh. 


Also, trying the melee reactions in L4:  Seems like this will basically make melee fests (party/prison/vats) impossible:  Biggest problem is enemies will flip around so you can't really attack the back, although I guess you can kind of manage if you have two people gals in every melee encounter (not really plausible in somethng like gal party though).  Also RIP chainsawing zombies, and feels easier to just shotgun most of the early game academy nurses at this point.  Or at the very least just whip them instead for the reaction disrupt

It's a nice idea but I don't think it works in practice.  Maybe if striking the back doesn't cause a reaction?  Although that's pretty much all most people do anyways.  I mostly shotgun, grenade, throwing axe, and heavy weapons everyone anyways, so it doesn't affect me much outside these areas, though.

[magitsu]

Agreed, balance is a bit delicate. Melee heavy missions might have too many enemies for this melee reaction version.
It's no problem that certain enemies really hurt from the front. Like you couldn't expect not to get hit when meleeing a blood hound with TUs. But the turning around bit for some is the question.

[xcomfan]

The new melee mode is more funny, but certainly needs more fine tuning, yes it might make impossible some missions 

[jungybrogan]

@luigi pretty sure impossible heh. 


Also, trying the melee reactions in L4:  Seems like this will basically make melee fests (party/prison/vats) impossible:  Biggest problem is enemies will flip around so you can't really attack the back, although I guess you can kind of manage if you have two people gals in every melee encounter (not really plausible in somethng like gal party though).  Also RIP chainsawing zombies, and feels easier to just shotgun most of the early game academy nurses at this point.  Or at the very least just whip them instead for the reaction disrupt

It's a nice idea but I don't think it works in practice.  Maybe if striking the back doesn't cause a reaction?  Although that's pretty much all most people do anyways.  I mostly shotgun, grenade, throwing axe, and heavy weapons everyone anyways, so it doesn't affect me much outside these areas, though.

Agreed.  I like the new melee reactions, but the turning around part trivializes facing and makes combat feel less fun/tactical.  Never liked it for bullets and explosive, but now it applies to melee as well.  Risk/reward just feels really off when you sneak behind units, set up ambush to get close, then they just turn around when you hit them.  It makes the game more about high stats vs stats, and equipment tiers, rather than tactics.

I love X-com's combat, but if there were one thing I'd change, it'd be to add a toggle: Hits from behind don't trigger reactions.

[Dioxine]

You can control your TU and type of weapon, so don't say tactics is not important with melee now. I'd say it's more important than ever; no more dumb "run from the front of someone, brush with him, position yourself behind and unload 50 attacks without any risk". Stats of course, matter a lot; else there wouldn't be any, lol.

But I expected fierce resistance to this change, so well, I'm not surprised there is.

[Greep]

Well, I think it's more that specific scenarios got considerably harder.  For instance, in x-prison you get 5-6 gals and shivs, there's only so much you can do with it, and the 20 back armor vs 28/32 side/front matters a lot in that oddball case.  I guess you'll have to make a lot more use out of those high explosives in the basement heh.

In regular missions, it has gotten me to try out some stuff like savage armor and dog barks to help gang on a target.  With savage, though, the triple freshness reduction is a bit menacing in early game (gal is a vegetable in a matter of turns, so building heavy maps you're kinda stuck being a chain smoker and seeing sickbay a lot or retreating that gal midfight).

[ZoA]

I for one like the new melee reactions, not for the balance reason but for verisimilitude. It was kinda odd in old system defender would just stand there taking the beating and do nothing even when he had TU unspent.

That said balance wise it is a nerf for aggressive melee tactics, especially against other strong melee opponents that now can hit back quite effectively if they don't fall to first attack. It for sure makes the game more dangerous for those that prefer melee combat, but i guess that is the pint of the change.

[jungybrogan]

You can control your TU and type of weapon, so don't say tactics is not important with melee now. I'd say it's more important than ever; no more dumb "run from the front of someone, brush with him, position yourself behind and unload 50 attacks without any risk". Stats of course, matter a lot; else there wouldn't be any, lol.

But I expected fierce resistance to this change, so well, I'm not surprised there is.

You already fixed the "run from the front of someone, brush with him part", since melee reacts to all frontal quadrants now.  That change is awesome, since CQB is a lot cooler when units guard areas with melee now. 

I didn't say there was no tactics, just that units reacting to back-hits places much more emphasis on stats and equipment tiers, than facing/positioning.  With melee, you're already trading in TU and greatly increased risk to get behind, vs the safety of shooting from a distance and moving in/out of cover.  So chain-sawing someone from behind felt fun and fair. 

Never saw an issue with unloading TU on someone's back, because that's what would happen logically, IRL or fantasy.  IE:  An uber mutant choke holds someone from behind, while shanking their liver 50x, or braining someone in the back of the head and not stopping until it's pulp.  You could play out the fantasy of a naked berserker/silent ninja, using only their animal cunning, savagery, and something grabbed off the floor, to efficiently take-down targets with magic/alien tech who instagib gals when they so much as look at them.

By the same token, your own characters not reacting to back hits, makes the player want to cover their backs, not be over-aggressive, and make sure they never get hit from behind.

For the player, this made facing even less important.  Now you can more freely/carelessly place armored up units without caring which way they face.

Like you couldn't expect not to get hit when meleeing a blood hound with TUs. But the turning around bit for some is the question.

Always saw this as an accurate representation of:  uber mounts monster from behind.  Same reason why hitting someone in the back is illegal in the UFC, or why giving up your back is the worst possible outcome.

[Dioxine]

Well, the monstrosity, or lack of it, is decided by the stats. Your statement that shanking someone 50x in the back is realistic kinda falls flat due to the fact that if you use proper weapon, you kill target with 1-2 hits. 50x shanking was for bringing down far stronger opponents than yourself by the technique of 1000 cuts. Now you can still use it, but either you need to be smart about it (have backup plan), or at least have a single unit that will tank the retaliation.

Re: facing is not important. It still is, axe to the back that would kill you, if applied to the front, would only wound you or even miss altogether due to higher evasion.

Re: firearms rule. Sure, exploding the whole map and camping like crazy is always the safest tactics, but I cannot be preoccupied too much by players who use only the saftest tactics; far too much dev time was already put into making their ways a bit more punishing.

From experience so far, differences are minor; only obviously stupid melee moves get penalized, like attacking a strong melee unit from behind with a weak weapon, untrained gal and with no TU to spare nor strong armor. Usually enemy retal is still ineffective and can be even used against them.

[amjh]

Would it be possible/reasonable to give melee reactions a penalty when attacked from behind?

[Apocca]

It already is for Bugeyes

[Delian]

Is it just me, or does bootypedia in L4 not work anymore?