Re: The X-Com Files - 3.5: Whispers In The Dark

[HT]

Cool! Once I finish the in-game month I'm in, I'll give this a look. What does a "surprise attack" consists in for the CQC thing?
Also, I remember reading that Scout AIs no longer have smoke launchers. Is that true? If so, why? That removes their main utility, since for scouting doges are more expendable.

[ZakG]

Seconded Cool! (for the sudden 1.7 release).

And thanks to Termidor for that detailed analysis, and Solarius Scorch for replying with balance

I am still in my first game (circa 1997) of the mod, and have no real detailed feedback to give yet, other than i am loving it and finding it hard (even on easy!) as an X-com gamer from the Amiga days!

But at some point i will feel i have the experience of the mod to comment and post something constructive, because i feel Solarius Scorch you have here one of the best X-com games around in terms of a cohesive and believable storyline that leads upto the original game start.

My X-com life will certainly never be the same again

[Solarius Scorch]

Cool! Once I finish the in-game month I'm in, I'll give this a look. What does a "surprise attack" consists in for the CQC thing?

Let me quote the ruleset reference:
Alien attacker can avoid CQC when xcom victim doesn't see the alien attacker. Xcom attacker can avoid CQC when all aliens (as a collective) were not aware of the xcom attacker during the previous and the current turn.

Also, I remember reading that Scout AIs no longer have smoke launchers. Is that true? If so, why? That removes their main utility, since for scouting doges are more expendable.

No, I haven 't removed the smoke launchers. Must be some misunderstanding (or a bug).

Also, thanks for the kind words, both of you guys!

[HT]

No, I haven 't removed the smoke launchers. Must be some misunderstanding (or a bug).

I think I remember reading a line which said something like "smoke launchers HWPs are a myth", as well as removing said smoke launcher for the scout chassis, but maybe I misunderstood that change.

[termidor]

Congrats on the new release . I suppose it ain't  compatible with 1.6 saves right?

This is something I have finally addressed in the (yet unreleased) 1.7. Namely I eliminated manufacturing for money, except from some limited materials. I don't know if it will be enough, we will see.

I actually  haven't  made any money out of manufacturing.  You could get a net positive  with UFO components  but I was swimming  in money by them. My main source was looting. I believe  that this part gets very unbalanced once  you reach 1999 and UFOs start flying around. Not only you do more missions, but the money you get from plasma weapons (that you aren't  going to use in a while) and UFO stuff is quite significant. I believe  I got 2M$ from selling 8 corpses+their weapons+ the components from a downed large scout. The second point of money is the council, that gives me much more than what I need to maintain  the base.

As I said I believe 1999 is when the problems come as before that it was a real struggle  to get everything  I wanted. I would  suggest the following changes:
- No score should  be given for retrieving common components, and much lower score for corpses. My scores though  1999 have all been insane, getting  over 10000 points in October which was mind breaking. You can clear a lot of missions with heavy casualties and still come up with very good scores. For example the underwater factory gives 2000 aqua plastics. That means that even if you lose all the squad except one, you are going to get an insane score anyways.It is already  hard to lose a  game,  but I do think that there should  be some tension  regarding your performance.
- In relation  to that, the council  should  give less money. As the intended objective  is to get going by loot, I don't  think it would  be too bad if you get less money than what you need for maintenance. Maybe higher maintenance  cost  for advanced buildings (Imp Lab) could  help.
- Less money from components and alien weapons. Considering  that earth governments  can't  use plasma, maybe a lower selling cost would make sense. Overall the idea should  be that you still make a profit, but less than what is currently  in game.

The entire reason why I went with alenium was because HWPs were phasing out organics in late game.

...and honestly, you sold the shards? You're joking, right? It's almost like selling the Tiny Drill in Piratez.

I can't  say I relate with this  And yeah I did a 4d chess move with the shards, as I wanted to boost my research as much as possible  early game. Kinda of shows that early on there  is a real tension in managing the resources  you got.

Having said that, I agree that some sort of recruitment system would be better than a straight purchase, but when I was adding this, it was not possible yet (I think). Also, I honestly don't know how to do it - some ideas would be welcome.

Actually  I do have two ideas. One would  be relatively  simple- add a building  (a radio station) - that after build allows to recruit  hybrid agents though  the manufacturing  screen. The requirements  to build  the station should  be easier than the rat breeding  grounds. Fluff wise, it could  be justified  as interfering  with the Hybrid chip so that it can be recruited.

An alternative proposition would  be to have a land survey system but for recruitment of mercenaries,  being much more expensive  than regular  agents and having higher salaries,  but with better initial stats. Hybrids could  come it in this system,  appearing  once you unlock them. It could  actually  make for an interesting  mechanism  if properly  balance, allowing for some unique troops for your squads. Ofc it would  require  much more work, so I see it more feasible  for a submod

As for the general insanity issue, sorry but you haven't really proposed any improvement, or at least I don't understand what you want me to do. Can you specify maybe?

Sanity loss should  be related to the mission type+the enemies you face. Attacking a cult HQ? Your troops  get a little nervous. Attacking a cult HQ with inhuman enemies? More stressful. Facing different  UFO types shouldn't  be more taxing the bigger they get as you are mostly  facing known enemies.However  a terror mission should  scare much more to  clear than say a battleship. 

Er... what craft? How is any craft related to global detection? Please elaborate.

The AWACS for example. I can't  see a reason to lose a hangar space to get one of this if I can get passive detection outside my radar range

But why not? I honestly can't see how this doesn't make sense. It's not like Syyndicate people don't carry heavy weapons or use weird equipment (thought admittedly not often).

Thank God they didn't bring their mind guided missiles to my fights . But on more serious  note, is to make things more different. Of course  the enemy  count  would  need to be balanced as well, maybe two CEO,a Minotaur and a Robot as the tougher  enemies. Also I proposed the map change because the current  mission  seems to favor camping from the spawn point too much, considering  all the blind point you get at the lower level and the amount of enemies you face (the same can be say on the Black Lotus Hq)

.

Both are possible, especially the walker. But should I make every robot in the game available as a HWP chassis? That's kinda excessive. (No really, this is a serious design problem.)

It was more a rule of cool suggestion  than anything  else. However  I don't  think there is a walker type HWP apart from the Sectopod, and that usually  comes much later in game. (That is until they appear on your base uninvited x)

And people say that I am a sadist?!

Considering  how much "fun" I had with those guys , I would  say I haven't  reach that level yet  . The suggestion  mainly  come about  because  they are melee enemies (so they could  trigger a reaction shot ) and the spiders could  use some buffs later game (once you reach shogg they are a pushover).

Ypou mean, some more uses?

Yes, sorry, more uses . I didn't  notice they had a dependency. Still an early game use (I'm having a very silly idea of buildings throwable nets with then as a short range weapon) would  be nice.

 That's why I added special negative missions and events for when you're purposefully stalling cult termination. I think that's all that is needed.

  Hmmm maybe they could  reduce money apart  from score? As I said before score isn't  too much of a problem, and it gets compensated by clearing their missions .

And why is that?

Why would  you dress as cavemen if you intend to take their cargo by force anyways.  Wouldn't  make more sense to just dress in civilians  clothes instead?

Also two bugs in top of my head: you don't  seem to get access to the BS ammunition  for the HC at any point  in the game, and the focused sonic shotgun clip is unlocked by focused  sonic weapons, not the corresponding tech.

[tarkalak]

I think I remember reading a line which said something like "smoke launchers HWPs are a myth", as well as removing said smoke launcher for the scout chassis, but maybe I misunderstood that change.

You probably misread and misunderstood this bug report:
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,5047.msg134357.html#msg134357

The problem there was that creating the AI was creating a Smoke Clip, that is an automatically refilled ammo, so the clip shouldn't have been there. The HWP smoke is working as before I believe.

[HT]

Less money from manufacturing might be bad for me. My saves will suddenly have the main source of income dried up. Oh well, at worst I can use save editing.

Actually  I do have two ideas. One would  be relatively  simple- add a building  (a radio station) - that after build allows to recruit  hybrid agents though  the manufacturing  screen. The requirements  to build  the station should  be easier than the rat breeding  grounds. Fluff wise, it could  be justified  as interfering  with the Hybrid chip so that it can be recruited.

An alternative proposition would  be to have a land survey system but for recruitment of mercenaries,  being much more expensive  than regular  agents and having higher salaries,  but with better initial stats. Hybrids could  come it in this system,  appearing  once you unlock them. It could  actually  make for an interesting  mechanism  if properly  balance, allowing for some unique troops for your squads. Ofc it would  require  much more work, so I see it more feasible  for a submod

There was a separate mod that did something like that: The Recruitment Office one. Sadly, it's no longer compatible for now. It allowed you to recruit agents with higher stats at an higher cost. Something like this could be repurposed to do the recruitment of mercenaries to get agents of wildly variable stats, but usually more powerful than regular recruits (aka the XFiles equivalent of the Freaks' recruitment from Piratez). A radio building used to recruit Hybrids is cool too, although hybrids appear late and with lower stats to boot. They have built-in psionics and a force-field, but that barely compensates their low experience.

You probably misread and misunderstood this bug report:
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,5047.msg134357.html#msg134357

The problem there was that creating the AI was creating a Smoke Clip, that is an automatically refilled ammo, so the clip shouldn't have been there. The HWP smoke is working as before I believe.

That was it. Thanks!

[Solarius Scorch]

Congrats on the new release . I suppose it ain't  compatible with 1.6 saves right?

Sure it is, why not?
Cases of incompatibility may happen depending on changes, but I always make a clear note about it and how to update your save. It's a rare occurrence anyway.

I actually  haven't  made any money out of manufacturing.  You could get a net positive  with UFO components  but I was swimming  in money by them. My main source was looting. I believe  that this part gets very unbalanced once  you reach 1999 and UFOs start flying around. Not only you do more missions, but the money you get from plasma weapons (that you aren't  going to use in a while) and UFO stuff is quite significant. I believe  I got 2M$ from selling 8 corpses+their weapons+ the components from a downed large scout. The second point of money is the council, that gives me much more than what I need to maintain  the base.

OK, understood. So this change wouldn't affect you, but it seems to be relevant to many other people.
Well, I also buffed some UFOs, maybe it'll help. Otherwise I'll address it again later.

As I said I believe 1999 is when the problems come as before that it was a real struggle  to get everything  I wanted. I would  suggest the following changes:
- No score should  be given for retrieving common components, and much lower score for corpses. My scores though  1999 have all been insane, getting  over 10000 points in October which was mind breaking. You can clear a lot of missions with heavy casualties and still come up with very good scores. For example the underwater factory gives 2000 aqua plastics. That means that even if you lose all the squad except one, you are going to get an insane score anyways.It is already  hard to lose a  game,  but I do think that there should  be some tension  regarding your performance.

Yeah, I guess you're right. It is not related to money, but indeed I should review corpses and components point rewards.

- In relation  to that, the council  should  give less money. As the intended objective  is to get going by loot, I don't  think it would  be too bad if you get less money than what you need for maintenance. Maybe higher maintenance  cost  for advanced buildings (Imp Lab) could  help.

I gradually raise maintenance for stuff, so maybe, yeah. I'll reconsider it again.

- Less money from components and alien weapons. Considering  that earth governments  can't  use plasma, maybe a lower selling cost would make sense. Overall the idea should  be that you still make a profit, but less than what is currently  in game.

I would like to come back to this after the latest changes settle in and gather some feedback.
 

I can't  say I relate with this  And yeah I did a 4d chess move with the shards, as I wanted to boost my research as much as possible  early game. Kinda of shows that early on there  is a real tension in managing the resources  you got.

Well, you can always get more from alien bases.

Actually  I do have two ideas. One would  be relatively  simple- add a building  (a radio station) - that after build allows to recruit  hybrid agents though  the manufacturing  screen. The requirements  to build  the station should  be easier than the rat breeding  grounds. Fluff wise, it could  be justified  as interfering  with the Hybrid chip so that it can be recruited.

It's a decent idea. However, two remarks:
1) What would be the manufacturing materials (if any)?
2) It would make recruiting hybrids even more costly than now, and I already keep hearing that they're not worth using. I don't really want to buff them, that would probably feel wrong.

An alternative proposition would  be to have a land survey system but for recruitment of mercenaries,  being much more expensive  than regular  agents and having higher salaries,  but with better initial stats. Hybrids could  come it in this system,  appearing  once you unlock them. It could  actually  make for an interesting  mechanism  if properly  balance, allowing for some unique troops for your squads. Ofc it would  require  much more work, so I see it more feasible  for a submod

Yeah, this idea is floating around, but I don't really want multiple soldier types without a really good reason to do so. I'll keep it as a last resort option.

Sanity loss should  be related to the mission type+the enemies you face. Attacking a cult HQ? Your troops  get a little nervous. Attacking a cult HQ with inhuman enemies? More stressful. Facing different  UFO types shouldn't  be more taxing the bigger they get as you are mostly  facing known enemies.However  a terror mission should  scare much more to  clear than say a battleship.

Fine, but it doesn't breing us any closer to "how". Environmental conditions are set by deployment, not race or any other such parameter. So I can't see how I can improve this part.

The AWACS for example. I can't  see a reason to lose a hangar space to get one of this if I can get passive detection outside my radar range

Yeah, that's true: I can't see the point either. I have no idea what to do about it, though; I don't want to remove the detection from intel labs, because it's kinda important for the ambience to have people sitting at cord phones and taking calls about UFO sightings, and I can't bring their efficiency below 1% because of how the engine works.

Thank God they didn't bring their mind guided missiles to my fights . But on more serious  note, is to make things more different. Of course  the enemy  count  would  need to be balanced as well, maybe two CEO,a Minotaur and a Robot as the tougher  enemies. Also I proposed the map change because the current  mission  seems to favor camping from the spawn point too much, considering  all the blind point you get at the lower level and the amount of enemies you face (the same can be say on the Black Lotus Hq)

Change to what? I don't have an endless trove of terrains to pick from. Even these two were shamelessly stolen from the 40k and reworked a little.
If camping is a problem, I'd rather consider some other measure. Hmm, maybe give them reinforcements which appear regularly near the lift (possible now)? But this would make capturing the facility much harder. Well, at least it would be different...

Simply limiting your equipment might make this mission too similar to other undercover missions.

It was more a rule of cool suggestion  than anything  else. However  I don't  think there is a walker type HWP apart from the Sectopod, and that usually  comes much later in game. (That is until they appear on your base uninvited x)

Okay, I'll consider it, but no promises.

Considering  how much "fun" I had with those guys , I would  say I haven't  reach that level yet  . The suggestion  mainly  come about  because  they are melee enemies (so they could  trigger a reaction shot ) and the spiders could  use some buffs later game (once you reach shogg they are a pushover).

I see you're one of the players who want every mission to be hard. That's okay, but not everyone is like that, and XCF is already fairly elitist - I don't want to go even further in that direction.

Yes, sorry, more uses . I didn't  notice they had a decency. Still an early game use (I'm having a very silly idea of buildings throwable nets with then as a short range weapon) would  be nice.

I'm totally open to ideas here, but the implementation would be tricky. I'll think about it, maybe collab something with Dioxine if he's interested and it makes sense.

Hmmm maybe they could  reduce money apart  from score? As I said before score isn't  too much of a problem, and it gets compensated by clearing their missions .

A valuable idea. At least the events could do that.

Why would  you dress as cavemen if you intend to take their cargo by force anyways.  Wouldn't  make more sense to just dress in civilians  clothes instead?

No, because they expect cavemen, not some suspiciously generic folks.
(Of course it could be any other Apoc gang, but I chose Cavemen.)

Also two bugs in top of my head: you don't  seem to get access to the BS ammunition  for the HC at any point  in the game, and the focused sonic shotgun clip is unlocked by focused  sonic weapons, not the corresponding tech.

- The HC-BS ammo should be available for purchase together with the HC itself.
- The focused sonic shotgun clip production requires both the sonic shotgun tech and the focused fire tech.
Are these really not working as intended?

[Mrvex]

How does the reinforcement system work ? I assume alot of missions will use them in future, for enemies and allies alike ? (If you are like fighting alongside military).

[Solarius Scorch]

How does the reinforcement system work ? I assume alot of missions will use them in future, for enemies and allies alike ? (If you are like fighting alongside military).

I don't know if it can be used for allies; probably not.

As for how it works, it's a pretty broad question... In short, under the deployment you define reeinforcement waves; when they appear, where they appear, who appears and what equipment they have.

EDIT: 1.7b has been released.
- Increased maintenance on advanced buildings.
- Cleaner Syndicate Walker sprite.
- Improved Laser Rifle bigob (by Brain_322).
- Fixed Starfighter manufacturing.

So yeah, mostly a standard post-release bugfix.

[AlicePaws]

If bravery is trained by using healing items on others, and the healing sprays are also usable on yourself would that give you the bravery xp when healing yourself OR would it only give it when healing others?

Also, I really liked the shields for the armored and tritanium vests, is it possible to add the shields as standalones? as in you craft something like a "Fusion" Shield, same limitations as the other ones (Heavy, costly to equip and unequip and just being big and unwieldy) just equipable and unequipable at will and not really bound to an armor, the webwear comes to mind, just bound to your hand slot instead

Fantastic work on this mod, really liking the direction it takes in that it's not easy but it's not stupidly hard either!

[Solarius Scorch]

If bravery is trained by using healing items on others, and the healing sprays are also usable on yourself would that give you the bravery xp when healing yourself OR would it only give it when healing others?

Healing spray never gives Bravery training. Putting spray on people just isn't "real medicine enough" to train your guts.

Also, I really liked the shields for the armored and tritanium vests, is it possible to add the shields as standalones? as in you craft something like a "Fusion" Shield, same limitations as the other ones (Heavy, costly to equip and unequip and just being big and unwieldy) just equipable and unequipable at will and not really bound to an armor, the webwear comes to mind, just bound to your hand slot instead

Shields are tricky, which is why they come in fixed versions (with armours) in the first place.
With the scripting language as developed as it is now, it's probably possible to make a standalone shield... But right now it's not within my competences, because I don't know the Yankes script language.

Fantastic work on this mod, really liking the direction it takes in that it's not easy but it's not stupidly hard either!

Thank you very much, I really appreciate it!

[tarkalak]

I don't know if it can be used for allies; probably not.

As for how it works, it's a pretty broad question... In short, under the deployment you define reeinforcement waves; when they appear, where they appear, who appears and what equipment they have.

EDIT: 1.7b has been released.
- Increased maintenance on advanced buildings.
- Cleaner Syndicate Walker sprite.
- Improved Laser Rifle bigob (by Brain_322).
- Fixed Starfighter manufacturing.

So yeah, mostly a standard post-release bugfix.

What about civilian waves on terror missions?

I mean, everyone wants to come see X-COM kill each other with friendly fire kick some aliens' butt and the chances of taking a plasma in the face are minimal, right? It is funnier than watching football.

[HT]

How does the reinforcements mechanic work in timed missions? After the time's up, you have to retreat before the sudden spawning of elite enemy units destroy you? Can you still win that mission by killing all of the new enemies, or do they keep showing up? Can you still pass the mission if you deal with the original objective (ie: dealing with the crazed farmer)?

[Eddie]

Fine, but it doesn't breing us any closer to "how". Environmental conditions are set by deployment, not race or any other such parameter. So I can't see how I can improve this part.

I got an idea that maybe leads to something useful:
- Use a script hook to check which type of enemy is spotted.
- If the enemy is not researched yet, assume it is an unknown enemy. Now apply appropriate stress level. This solution requires that scripts can check for a research topic. I am unsure if that is supported right now, but if not maybe not too much of a hassle to add.
- I think it is possible to start the stress effect script on all soldiers off just one spotting an enemy.
- A script would also allow you to add a round counter that then increases or decreases stress levels if desired. For example, seeing no dangerous enemy for like 10 rounds could reduce stress a little if the scenario is appropriate.

Another use for scripts checking a research topic could be extra damage for known enemies (or damage penalty for having no research). You can even apply it only to certain weapons, short distances or facing.