Author Topic: The X-Com Files - 2.2: The Inner Circle  (Read 1074021 times)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.7: Market Corrections
« Reply #3945 on: December 05, 2020, 11:55:27 am »
What about civilian waves on terror missions?

I mean, everyone wants to come see X-COM kill each other with friendly fire kick some aliens' butt and the chances of taking a plasma in the face are minimal, right? It is funnier than watching football.

Agreed, but looking at the feature, I doubt it's doable. I think nobody has ever proposed civilian reinforcements before. If you want this added, talk to Meridian here, but be prepared to have strong arguments. :)

How does the reinforcements mechanic work in timed missions? After the time's up, you have to retreat before the sudden spawning of elite enemy units destroy you? Can you still win that mission by killing all of the new enemies, or do they keep showing up? Can you still pass the mission if you deal with the original objective (ie: dealing with the crazed farmer)?

I assume you mean this particular mission, not the reinforcements mechanics in general.
Yes, of course you can fight them, else what would be the point of the change?
As for mission objectives, they remain unchanged, you just get more enemies dropped on your head.

I got an idea that maybe leads to something useful:
- Use a script hook to check which type of enemy is spotted.
- If the enemy is not researched yet, assume it is an unknown enemy. Now apply appropriate stress level. This solution requires that scripts can check for a research topic. I am unsure if that is supported right now, but if not maybe not too much of a hassle to add.
- I think it is possible to start the stress effect script on all soldiers off just one spotting an enemy.
- A script would also allow you to add a round counter that then increases or decreases stress levels if desired. For example, seeing no dangerous enemy for like 10 rounds could reduce stress a little if the scenario is appropriate.

Another use for scripts checking a research topic could be extra damage for known enemies (or damage penalty for having no research). You can even apply it only to certain weapons, short distances or facing.

I have no idea if these things are even possible. If they are and someone is willing to code them, then please talk to me about possible implementations.

Offline HT

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.7: Market Corrections
« Reply #3946 on: December 05, 2020, 03:27:04 pm »
I assume you mean this particular mission, not the reinforcements mechanics in general.
Yes, of course you can fight them, else what would be the point of the change?
As for mission objectives, they remain unchanged, you just get more enemies dropped on your head.

Thanks for the answer! Still, the farm missions are the ones where reinforcements are most likely to show up. Can they show up in other missions, or is that feature not implemented yet? Having them show up in the middle of a terror attack sorta makes sense, not so much in a crashed UFO one, unless aliens had a teleporter lying around somewhere.

As for the mission objective, assuming you deal with the crazed farmer or whatever after the enemy waves show up, do you still have to retreat to the exit tiles, or does the mission automatically end and the new enemies retreat on their own? I haven't checked that one yet, so that's why I ask. A funny thing would be if the new enemies who are not KO'ed or dead count as captured, but I doubt it will be that easy.

Can the enemy waves spawn endlessly, or are they a fixed number? Does that depend on the mission in particular? Lastly, would difficulty level alter the number of enemies showing up?

That's all for now, thank you for your hard work.
I wonder if something like this could be done during base defense missions by having armed NPCs (ie: generic security forces) show up to help.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.7: Market Corrections
« Reply #3947 on: December 05, 2020, 05:34:48 pm »
Thanks for the answer! Still, the farm missions are the ones where reinforcements are most likely to show up. Can they show up in other missions, or is that feature not implemented yet? Having them show up in the middle of a terror attack sorta makes sense, not so much in a crashed UFO one, unless aliens had a teleporter lying around somewhere.

It's not used in any other mission yet. I do have some plans, but nothing is done yet.

Having the aliens appear in terror mission is also kinda controversial - there aren't that many on a single Terror Ship... But I get what you mean.

Perhaps a good idea would be to enable it on Moon missions and Cydonia, but I'd have to change mission objectives on the Moon to something else than "kill all".

As for the mission objective, assuming you deal with the crazed farmer or whatever after the enemy waves show up, do you still have to retreat to the exit tiles, or does the mission automatically end and the new enemies retreat on their own? I haven't checked that one yet, so that's why I ask. A funny thing would be if the new enemies who are not KO'ed or dead count as captured, but I doubt it will be that easy.

If there are enemies on the map, the battle continues. If there aren't any, the battle ends. That's all.

Can the enemy waves spawn endlessly, or are they a fixed number? Does that depend on the mission in particular? Lastly, would difficulty level alter the number of enemies showing up?

You can do all that, depending on what you need.

That's all for now, thank you for your hard work.

Thanks, much appreciated!

I wonder if something like this could be done during base defense missions by having armed NPCs (ie: generic security forces) show up to help.

As far as I know you can't do it with non-enemies.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 01:42:09 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline WaldoTheRanger

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.7: Market Corrections
« Reply #3948 on: December 06, 2020, 07:25:53 am »
Hello again. Loving the new additions.
Just wondering, cause I'm somewhat wierd about this kind of thing, when was the last time you updated the progress-o-meter for the arcs? it looks like it hasn't changed for awhile, and yet the uac seems to be a thing now.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.7: Market Corrections
« Reply #3949 on: December 06, 2020, 11:06:44 pm »
Hello again. Loving the new additions.

Nice, thanks!

Just wondering, cause I'm somewhat wierd about this kind of thing, when was the last time you updated the progress-o-meter for the arcs? it looks like it hasn't changed for awhile, and yet the uac seems to be a thing now.

I'm considering UAC to be a part of the Apoc arc (which may or may not be correct). But I admit I rarely remember to update this...

Offline termidor

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.7: Market Corrections
« Reply #3950 on: December 07, 2020, 08:10:37 pm »
Okay as promised here is the second part of my suggestions.  I will try to keep it short and precise
Technology:
- Overall I retract from my previous  statement where there aren't  enough  techs, there are in fact a lot of them  ;D However  you can be blocked from important one by bad Rng as you need to farm captives to get them. One thing I would change is the current progression of 5 different  techs > alien vocabulary > the good stuff, to divide things more. For example, instead of having the toxi suit after the toxi-gun, have it behind alien chemistry that currently only serves for vocab. In the same vein, some stuff could be move it to promotion I in case you can't fill all the vacancies for advisors. I can't  say anything  too concrete,  but having a more diverse tech tree instead of relying on a few important  techs could  make the game better, specially  if the player want to play with "blind research".

- Promotion  Three prerequisites could change. While maintaining  deep ones communities and alien language,   I would change cyberweb portal to a previous  cyberweb tech and Into the dark to Hidden caves. The rationale being that you can get Deep ones communities much faster than any of the other options. While I see alien origins  as a failsafe, the current setup have a very optimal path of going after the dagon church to get deep ones than trying anything else. I do think that promo III should  come soon after defeating  a cult, as an important  step up to face better armed enemies.

- Navigators could probably  be able to tell more about different  UFO types, at least at the same level of engineers. They shouldn't  become useless so quick.

-I don't  know if it is possible, but staff input should  only be choose  as an option if there is nothing  important  that  the prisoner  can tell you. They are fun fluff bits, but they can keep you out of key research and can be bypass by just keeping non-important prisioner around just to game the system, which feels like gaming the system  more than anything else.

Overall  I like the tech system  and I feel that, except  some exceptions, it is in a good place.
Craft systems;
-two small issues here: the avalanche  is still the top weapon, and mass driver cannon is much better than the other cannons. For the first point, apart from the range, heavy missile platforms usually  carry excessive  ammo for their firerate: if facing a passive ufo you want the avalanches range without  doubt, and against  hunter-killers your cannons are going  to end up doing most of the job. Heavy missile systems like the heavy stingray or the heavy storm Lance could get faster firing to make them more useful  against  targets that try to shut you down. As for the mass driver cannon, it's stats are simply to good compared to the previous  cannons. I do think it should  be an upgraded,  but not such a powerful one.

Armour:
- I like the way things are balanced around in the early- middle part of the game with the armored  vest, the shield and the heavy suit, each having their ups and downsides. The only armor I would  give a stat boost is the Jumpsuit  to make it more appealing  to recruits (maybe a firing accuracy  bonus or a small TU boost) so as to make it more preferable  than the starting suit (either one of them offer  minimal protection  anyways).

- However I do think the mid-late armors could use some rebalance, specially  the personal armour and the Cyber armor, as the specialist  armors are fine (aqua suit, toxi, flying). The problem I see is that the cyber armor over shadows the personal armor in almost every way. Sure it has less plasma protection percentage  but you are most likely to be damaged on a personal armor (needs 53.33 to be pierced  compared to the 60 of the cyber) and if you are hit with bigger weapons you are probably fuck anyways due to how nasty plasma is in the mod. Not to mention that against most common threats (including  alien laser weapons) is better to be using a cyber armor than a PA. When this is computed, even the alloy vest compare favorably  against  it. The cherry on top is that the cyber armor boost reactions, so it becomes apparent  that it is a non-brainer to give all your troops this armor. I would suggest two changes: buff the personal armor to at least alloy vest protection  levels, maybe with 70% plasma protection , while making the cyber armor a heavy armor  choice that while boosting  firing accuracy,  have a lower energy recovery rate, is heavier and give less TU. I do think the ciber should  give better overall  protection,  but the PA should  have it's  uses.

-On the topic of armor, could armor recovery  require two sets of dead bodies instead of one? I must say I'm  not a fan of this as a concept as I feel it makes player losses less costly  for certain  armors that you are going  to be using anyways. In line with the economic  changes I talk about, more expenses would be welcome, so that you can't just replace every armor you lose cheaply.  Alternatively,  it could  be a process  only available  for cheaper, worse armors, so as to make a difference  between  expendable  outfits and expensive  ones.

- One minor thing, but should advanced dog armor have it's  energy recovery  be independent  from their current  sanity level

-I'm not going to comment  on more advanced  suits, but i do hope that more advanced  versions aren't  dependent  on synth-muscle, as they are just locked away by RNG.

Offline termidor

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.7: Market Corrections
« Reply #3951 on: December 07, 2020, 08:11:23 pm »
Weapons:
- There is a lot to unpack here so I will try to divide my suggestions  into arbitrary  groups that I hope that make sense. I will also make individual  suggestions  when needed

 Melee weapons:
  -To start with, I would  suggets changing their damage rolls to a 50-150 spread instead of the current  0-200. Considering that units have a melee dodge chance, and that charging is a risky endeavor, I think that consistency in damage   should  be a given. Considering also that some weapons already have it while other do not (for example compare the knife with its  tritanium version) it would also help rationalize (I hate this word) the combat system.

- I think it would  be good if knifes accuracy  was determined  by 50+0,5 formula. From what I know knifes are easier to use than swords, but right now in game they are only truly useful  on soldiers with martial  arts training that can hit their targets.  I do also feel that the electric club is a too dominant  choice for a melee backup weapo, being more effective  than other melee in taking down opponents,  making it an almost no brainer. An alternative  melee weapon for it would  be welcome. Also their power bonus could  be changed to 0,1 reactions + 0,1 melee accuracy.  I do think that skill bonus in general  should  be tone down a bit and make base damage  more important   with a few exceptions for two reasons: to make weapon obsolescence  more important  and to  make elite warriors a bit more balanced. I do think that stat bonus damage  leads to a double accounting  problem where weapons do not only hit more often, but do often double damage in the process. Melee weapons  are the more clear example where two transformations  make the difference  between having to engage  an enemy  with multiple  units to bring it down to clear a whole UFO with a katana and a knife.
- Some concrete  balance changes would  be: lower the weight  of the combat knife to 3, make the tonfa use the 50+ 0,5 accuracy, buff the chitin knife to the level of others knifes , the axes should  probably  be two handed weapons and have lower strength bonuses, the pitchfork  could do cutting damage, and the pickaxe could use normal  wepon mechanics now that they can hit terrain.
-  I 'm going to include here the laser cutter as I feel it needs a buff, as taking a hammer for demolition  is normally  a better idea, being  able to do similar  damage, and being much more multipurpose. Maybe it could  be remained as an anti-large weapon such as the sectopod for base defense missions with a lower TU cost and better CQC accuracy

Traditional  weapons:
-Throwing  Knifes could use some base damage but get less damage bonus. They are a strange weapon in that they are practically  useless  below 70 accuracy  but at 100 they do some very serious  damage. I think it would  be preferable  if they had a lower skill factor to make them a better weapon to train throwing  ability  with. Also the aimed shot could cost more but have more effective  range while having a similar  acc to the snap shot: right now there is little reason to use the snap.
-Crossbows could be a single shot option  but do more damage. I don't know if it would  be possible to have stackable  items in the inventory,  but it is strange for them to have the same firerate of a sniper rifle. Also the harpoon  launcher is already a single shot weapon that gets completely  outclassed  by these weapons. Also their tritanium  arrows could probably  be at 36 damage to make them  more in line with other tritanium  ammo.
- The heavy Xbow should  be heavier, but do much more base damage than the normal Xbow while having the same bonus as the normal version(make it a heavy cannon version of it). Xbow doesn't get their strength from the user directly,  so it is strange to see it so reliant of it. Ideally,  it should  be closer to the gas cannon in base damage to make the choice of heavy underwater weapons more interesting (right now while the Xbow scales better, the gas cannon two snap shot in one turn make it more useful).
- while talking  about  underwater  weapons, the harpoon  launcher could  use a buff, as rigth now is a complete joke. First,  the max range needs to go: it doesn't make sense that other weapons doesn't  have it while the harpoon  launcher is impaired  by the laws of physics.  Secondly,  it could  use a damage buff to rifle levels, and maybe get a 0,1 firing accuracy  bonus like the xbow. Finally  the HE round could do damage similar to the tritanium  one. Considering underwater  units usually  have good concussive resistance , the current  round is close to useless. The balance  could  be that the Xbow is more accurate,  but the Launcher more hard hitting. Also if the xbow keeps their quiver clips, I think the harpoon launcher could use the same treatment.

Firearms general:
-Weapon damage mainly come from their weapon calibre. There are plenty  of examples of weapons firing the same round yet having different  damage values. For example the glock,Beretta and the Uzi or the Colt,the Tommy and the Mac10. This more a realism argument  than a gameplay  one although  I do think some of this weapons deserve a buff (Uzi at 20 is a joke, the colt could use a bit more damage).
Early gun balance:
- Overall i quite like the balance early on, as there are many options and you are quite dependent on what your enemies bring to the table. I would however  make two changes: The calico could use SMG rate of fire (I will propose a 3x snap an a 6x auto) as rigth now it is a very poor weapon choice, and the Nitro express  could use a higher base damage but a lower power bonus. It shoots a big round, where it hits should  make such a difference.  Treating it as a Sniper weapon may not be a bad idea

- Another change I would  suggest is to make the 7.62 Nato rifles do more base damage rather than to rely  on a power bonus. More accurate  users already  benefit  from hitting the target more time anyways, and it is kinda of unnecessary.  I would  suggest a 34 damage round and also that it fires slower, maybe at a 30% snap minimum

- Continuing  with the rifles, maybe it wouldn't  be a bad idea to have the similar calibre rifles to have the same stats and their choice be mostly  cosmetical, and be balanced against  each other caliber. So for example the 5.56 could fire fast ( a 20% snap) and be relatively  accurate  but have lower damage, the 7.62 WP fire slower (a 25% snap) and have lower acc but hit harder and the 7.62 nato fire slower (a 30% snap), be terrible at auto shooting but have the best stopping power. I do think this would  make the choice similar (because  there are rifle better than others at each category) while allowing  the player to choose the rifle they like the most.

-One weapon I would  slightly  nerf is the P-90 as it is too good rigth now. It combines a good ammo capacity, very good armor piercing for its  class and good accuracy.  It practically  outclasses every 5.56 rifle, and it is probably  the best rookie weapon even when black ops enter the game. I would be catious here and suggest that it's  damaged be reduced  to 22 like others SMG and it's  armor piercing  to 85%. In return I think a 5 burst auto could be good (in fact most smgs could get higher burst amounts) to make it better at CQC.

-Some minor changes would be: Bolt action should get the same accuracy  modifiers as the Nagant, the SVD should be treated as a sniper weapon when it comes to its  accuracy,  the PKM could use a 2 round snap shot at 30 % TU.

- The HMG could get a 2 round shot.  Rigth now it is a weapon that you don't  want to be using most of the time, as it requires  a lot of patience  to use, and it is either a gross overkill, or a lottery machine with the way points. I feel that a snap shot option could  make it less situational, as more situations  were you want to use it a minigun would  work as well.

Offline termidor

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.7: Market Corrections
« Reply #3952 on: December 07, 2020, 08:12:18 pm »

Mid game:
- Here there is much more to talk about as the weapons could be both divided by categories or features. I will try to talk about each weapon category but in some occasions  talk about whole weapons groups

- About pistols I can see two issues: the first one related to the balance between  magnun weapons and the standard pistols and on the second point  to the smart pistols.  On the first point,  magnun weapons fall short compare to standard  pistols mainly due to their poor armor performance. Sure they do more damage, but the final difference  is usually  not that big. Considering  their ammo clip size and their weight, they bring few advantages  to the table. Even the smart magnun  fall short as it quickly  runs out of ammo. The change I would make is to take out the armor penetration malus from this weapons, so their shots are more effective  against  the foes you usually  encounter.  About the smart pistol, the problem  is that it  simply  too good. Not only it completely overshadows the normal black ops pistol, is so good that it is even better than the later laser pistol.  I propose here two changes:make it heavier, 10 units of weight while loaded, and make it a little bit less accurate,  maybe 85% and 90%. It would  still be good, but the heavier weight specially  could  balance it a bit.

Smg
-The black ops smg could  get some armor piercing,  maybe 85% as the proposed P90 change, to make it a bit more viable. It currently  fall behind most other weapons for CQC
 - The Uac Smg could  be buffed as rigth now it is like a black ops rifle but worse. Better accuracy  would be welcome, and a larger magazine  could also prove helpful.

Pulse weapons
- I think pulse weapons are an interesting  bunch. I do think that the LMG loaded with chem rounds is actually  a competitive weapon in the hands of accurate soldiers due to the power accuracy  bonus, but overall  they do feel a bit lackluster due to their accuracy  and their weigth. I would  propose five changes: make them more  accurate,  at the level of their competitor black ops weapon, make the tritanium ammo do extra hp damage (it can be justify as using tritanium as shards) like the ceramic round, make them fire slower, a small base damge buff for the pistol and  finally make the chem round a single buller but with very good damage (for example 60 with the rifle) while removing the accuracy power bonus. I think that better accuracy would help a lot these weapons, but should  be balanced with a lower firerate. To compensate,  higher stoping power could help a lot. As for the chem rounds, they only currently  work on the LMG because  they have good base damage.  I feel a single shot would be better as it would allow this weapon to also work against enemies  with a moderate  amount of armor, and make for an actual  chem line of wepons (as the chem guns and the canister are more special types). The chem shotgun ammo could actually  be recycle for the Thrasher  shotgun,to add more variety  to the mix.

Rifles
- With that said about pulse weapons, I think rifle selection could be improved. Rigth now we have the 2 black ops rifles, the UAC one, the Smart rifle and the pulse rifle. Currently  the smart rifle is the superior  option ,as it overperform the normal black ops rifles, the pulse rifle have it's issues and the UAC rifle is a joke. Keeping the line established with the previous  line of rifles, I would  suggest  changing  the smart rifle ammo to do less damage but be armor piercing. I would suggest a 24 damage normal bullet and a 32 tritanium one, making the maximum  damage of the auto equal to the one of an auto burst from an assault, and with a 90% AP damage. My idea here is that the smart rifle shouldn't  overperform completely  the previous  rifles, and while superior,  to have situations  were a normal rifle might work better.

- In relation to the Uac rifle, a more accurate  snap shot would help a lot. An auto setting  could also be nice. Also applying to the pistol, a lower shotgun spread would make them far more competitive. These weapons aren't  stated to be shotguns, so their bullets should  probably  land closer together than the current  behavior
Shotguns:
- Some minor changes i would make would be: get the tritanium  shotgun shell do 55 damage like the CAWS clip; make the UAC shotgun fire quicker to maybe 30% snap, 65% aimed;  and increase  the reload cost of the Thrasher  to 15 or 20 TU, as it can shoot very quick for such a good weapon.
-  I feel like the auto could get a much faster firerate. Considering  rigth now the only advantage  it has is an auto setting, and lacking slug rounds, even the standard black ops shotgun seem like a better deal. I would  argue to get it armor piercing dart rounds, but I think a two round snap shot an a 4 shot  auto could improve it a bit. I feel like the two round snap is could be enough  buff.
- The smart shotgun is a bit underwhelming, considering  it is supposed  to be one of the most advanced  shotguns. While accurate and fast firing, it has a bad shotgun ammo (worse than the saw off) and needs to be shooted with two hands, while being worse than a CAWS as a main shotgun choice. I would  make three changes:make it lighter,  remove the one hand penalty and finally reduce the pellets spread. I could see this weapon working as a secondary  weapon, specially  for undeecover missions, rather than being a main weapon candidate.

Sniper rifles:
- I think that giving sniper rifles all the same power bonus could help. The barret for example is a best weapon than the standard black ops sniper rifle with tritanium ammo thanks to his bigger power boost and better armor piercing. Other example is the PSG 1, that gets less damage boost than the .308 cal while being harder to aim, or the tactical sniper getting even less bonus, with the concusive round getting a very low 10%. Considering  that you need to be using accurate  soldiers with this rifles due to the acc^2 formula, I think their power bonus should  be the same and then have their base damage balanced around it. I think it could help for things like the barret that keeps being effective most of the game.

-One weapon i would change is the auto sniper, as i fell is underwhelming  compare to his  bolt action brother. The issue i see here is that it shoots as quickly  as the normal rifle while being  more or less just as accurate.  The auto setting i feel is not that great, usually  missing rounds. I would change it to be more of a marksman rifle, with a 35% snap shot, more accurate  auto setting  and removing the minimum  range, with a less powerful  power bonus. A better rifle for gun an running,  but less for stationary combat.

- One thing that caught  my attention  are the accuracy  knnel bonuses and the accuracy  drop on these weapons, as I feel they are a bit arbitrary. Maybe they could be revised,  as they are factors that make an impact  but they  don't  become apparent  very quickly  (for example the barret snap shot Is more accurate  than the standard  rifle one when kneeling).
LMG:
- Here i would make a big change and make the assault LMG different  than other two LMG. In the cult arms tier there are lmg(the fn minini) and heavy mg (the Mg3) and i think this distinction  should be maintained.  The assault  lmg should focus on more mobile tactics, being more accurate  on the standing and shooting more bullets, while the LMG (which should be renamed ) and the smart gun should be better at kneel shooting and have more range. Ideally the blance should  be miniguns for close range, assault lmg for being multipurpose  and the MG/smartgun for static positions.
Heavy weapons:
- the light cannon could get a slight accuracy  boost as rigth now is more in accurate than either the auto cannon or the assault  cannon while being weaker. Overall it is a weapon I like quite a lot due to it's  versatility,  but it's  lackluster  accuracy  makes it go obsolete  rather fast

- The sonic heavy cannon should weigth less, as with the focused clip it weigths a staggering  amount of 64 weigth units, making it impractical  to use it in battle. A weight  more in line with other heavy weapons would probably  make more sense , maybe at 48 weigth when fully loaded.

- The cyber web normal weapons (the Ionizer, the Ion blaster and the lightning  thrower) need to be more accurate  and fire slightly  faster. While their X dimension arsenal is fine, their earth weapons usually  only fire once per turn and completely  miss their target.  Being also quite heavy, their use by Xcom is difficult  to justify
Exlosives:
- The same i said to melee weapons apply here: there needs to be more consistency. Damage spread depends on damage type, so while concussive  grenades do more consistent  damage, plasma ones can either miss completely  or do double damage. I do think all explosions should be ruled by the 50-150 formula, due to the nature of the attacks involved. Different  damage types are already  a big point of using different  grenades/missile/shell  types, but i don't  think having 0-200 ones mixed with 50-150 ones are good for balance.

- About  missile  launchers,  one I find in a bad position is the multi-launcher. This weapon is more of a competitor of the auto cannon than the normal missile launcher, with very few advantages  and one big flaw in it's ammo weigth.  Also the lack of power of its  missiles means that is usually  a best idea to bring a normal missile launcher for longer  range support.  I think a lower missile pack weigth could help, along with an accuracy  in the lines of the other launchers.

- The advanced missile launcher should  only be used for mind guided missiles. The current setup allows for troops to take reaction shoots with this missile type. The E-115 missile should  in turn go to the normal mssile launcher, as a final upgrade to it

- The auto mortar should be what his name imply.  The current accuracy  model 70 %*0,75*300% makes it perfectly  accurate  at any range, which for a weapon that usually  one shoots any targets it hits, is mind boggling.  I would  prefer if the weapon had the same accuracy  of the normal mortar but having a two round magazine  that could be auto fire with way points.

-Should shrapnel  weapons leave fire after hitting? I do think that this type of weapon already  overperform  over normal concussive weapons, but the extra fire seems unnecessary.  Considering  also that cutting  is a better weapon damage type than concussive  when it comes to enemy resistances, i think that the extra blast radius of this weapons is not very balanced.

Chemical weapons:
- I think this weapons deserve  the two roll system considering  the nature of their attack. Acid could probably  splash in the case of the canister gun or cover a wide area in case of the chemo gun, so even near misses could still do damage.

- Speaking of the chemo gun, a lower TU use would help it a lot. Being a weapon with such a close range, the rather high TU usage of 65% makes it impractical  to use in more situations,  specially  compare to a minigun,  as you will expose your agent to just use it one. I think this weapon has more in common with the flamethrower, and it should be better suited for close assult use.

Flame weapons
- the last big change i would  proposem I think most of this weapons should  stop using the vanilla damage effect and use a 50-150 formula. Most napalm ammo already  work like this, so it would  make sense that the night ligther incendiary rocket worked this way. As for the flamer, the current utility  of the weapon is rather limited as enemies would usually  survive a full auto shot from it. Hilariously it seems to work better against  4 tile units like sectopods, ignoring  their armor and doing 4 times the damage. I think that having it do direct damage would  make more sense, increasing  drastically  it's utility for it's  intended role against  soft targets.

I'm going to leave it here because  I have write quite enough  already 8) One last suggestion,  make handcuffs  be usable with one hand rather than requiring  two, as they are quite limited  as they are rigth now.

Ps I may have overdid by quite a big margin lol

Offline tarkalak

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.7: Market Corrections
« Reply #3953 on: December 08, 2020, 04:44:39 pm »
Agreed, but looking at the feature, I doubt it's doable. I think nobody has ever proposed civilian reinforcements before. If you want this added, talk to Meridian here, but be prepared to have strong arguments. :)

Meridian is notoriously unwilling to do features suggested by non-modders. Which is completely understandable, why bother to do something that will never be used.

So the only strong argument will be that it would be used by somebody.

I can imagine having a terror mission during a parade. And a wave after wave of parade formations showing up on the street. :)
Or a bunch of hunter showing up to hunt Strange Creatures.

... I do also feel that the electric club is a too dominant  choice for a melee backup weapo, being more effective  than other melee in taking down opponents,  making it an almost no brainer.
...

It has alternatives. The wooden club and the Tonfa both do similar damage and have similar capabilities, but different bonuses. The Iron Pipe is also similar, but it does more lethal damaged, causes wounds and is heavier.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 04:57:48 pm by tarkalak »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.7: Market Corrections
« Reply #3954 on: December 08, 2020, 06:35:58 pm »
Holy...
Wow, what an essay. I'll try to address all your points, so apologies in advance for being lapidary.

For example, instead of having the toxi suit after the toxi-gun, have it behind alien chemistry that currently only serves for vocab.

Good idea, will help avoid empty techs. I just hope the suit won't appear too late.

In the same vein, some stuff could be move it to promotion I in case you can't fill all the vacancies for advisors. I can't  say anything  too concrete,  but having a more diverse tech tree instead of relying on a few important  techs could  make the game better, specially  if the player want to play with "blind research".

Agreed, but these specific bottlenecks are kinda central to the design. Also, let's be honest, getting Promotion II is easy.

- Promotion  Three prerequisites could change. While maintaining  deep ones communities and alien language,   I would change cyberweb portal to a previous  cyberweb tech and Into the dark to Hidden caves. The rationale being that you can get Deep ones communities much faster than any of the other options. While I see alien origins  as a failsafe, the current setup have a very optimal path of going after the dagon church to get deep ones than trying anything else. I do think that promo III should  come soon after defeating  a cult, as an important  step up to face better armed enemies.

But presenting proofs of alien civilizations plotting against us is the only way to get access to military stuff.
What could be done is dividing Promo III into two parts: III and IV, but I'm not sure it's really worth the work.

- Navigators could probably  be able to tell more about different  UFO types, at least at the same level of engineers. They shouldn't  become useless so quick.

OK, I'll add some more ships, but not all of them.

-I don't  know if it is possible, but staff input should  only be choose  as an option if there is nothing  important  that  the prisoner  can tell you.

Possible (with lots of work) but undesirable. Half of its role is tormenting the player.

-two small issues here: the avalanche  is still the top weapon, and mass driver cannon is much better than the other cannons. For the first point, apart from the range, heavy missile platforms usually  carry excessive  ammo for their firerate: if facing a passive ufo you want the avalanches range without  doubt, and against  hunter-killers your cannons are going  to end up doing most of the job. Heavy missile systems like the heavy stingray or the heavy storm Lance could get faster firing to make them more useful  against  targets that try to shut you down. As for the mass driver cannon, it's stats are simply to good compared to the previous  cannons. I do think it should  be an upgraded,  but not such a powerful one.

the problem is that it competes with the laser cannon and should be stronger than this (due to poorer range and slower rate of fire). If at all, I think the entire air combat balance should be redesigned at once.

- I like the way things are balanced around in the early- middle part of the game with the armored  vest, the shield and the heavy suit, each having their ups and downsides. The only armor I would  give a stat boost is the Jumpsuit  to make it more appealing  to recruits (maybe a firing accuracy  bonus or a small TU boost) so as to make it more preferable  than the starting suit (either one of them offer  minimal protection  anyways).

It's already absolutely pummelling the suit by stats, mobility and camouflage. Your sentence completely ignored that... :P

- However I do think the mid-late armors could use some rebalance, specially  the personal armour and the Cyber armor, as the specialist  armors are fine (aqua suit, toxi, flying). The problem I see is that the cyber armor over shadows the personal armor in almost every way.

Well, it's your opinion. And it's rather popular. But I've also heard a lot about how the Personal Armour is godly and Cyber Armour pointless, so I guess I'm foing the balance right in this case. ;)

BTW, Personal Armour can't have as much armour as the alloy vest and keep the better mobility.

-On the topic of armor, could armor recovery  require two sets of dead bodies instead of one? I must say I'm  not a fan of this as a concept as I feel it makes player losses less costly  for certain  armors that you are going  to be using anyways. In line with the economic  changes I talk about, more expenses would be welcome, so that you can't just replace every armor you lose cheaply.  Alternatively,  it could  be a process  only available  for cheaper, worse armors, so as to make a difference  between  expendable  outfits and expensive  ones.

Possible to do, and I'm not against it on principle; I need to think of this.

- One minor thing, but should advanced dog armor have it's  energy recovery  be independent  from their current  sanity level

You could say the same about human powered suits... We must draw the line somewhere.

-To start with, I would  suggets changing their damage rolls to a 50-150 spread instead of the current  0-200. Considering that units have a melee dodge chance, and that charging is a risky endeavor, I think that consistency in damage   should  be a given. Considering also that some weapons already have it while other do not (for example compare the knife with its  tritanium version) it would also help rationalize (I hate this word) the combat system.

But melee weapons already have 50-150 damage rolls... Well, most of them.

- I think it would  be good if knifes accuracy  was determined  by 50+0,5 formula. From what I know knifes are easier to use than swords,

That's a really odd statement. What's easier, hitting people with a stick or hitting people with your bare fist? (And spears win anyway.)

Maybe it's worthwhile to review these formulas, but at this point I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with them, considering the entire balance as well as the "cinematic experience" (lol).

but right now in game they are only truly useful  on soldiers with martial  arts training that can hit their targets.  I do also feel that the electric club is a too dominant  choice for a melee backup weapo, being more effective  than other melee in taking down opponents,  making it an almost no brainer. An alternative  melee weapon for it would  be welcome. Also their power bonus could  be changed to 0,1 reactions + 0,1 melee accuracy.

It's the least "melee" melee weapon, so maybe not. But I see where you're coming from.

I do think that skill bonus in general  should  be tone down a bit and make base damage  more important   with a few exceptions for two reasons: to make weapon obsolescence  more important  and to  make elite warriors a bit more balanced. I do think that stat bonus damage  leads to a double accounting  problem where weapons do not only hit more often, but do often double damage in the process. Melee weapons  are the more clear example where two transformations  make the difference  between having to engage  an enemy  with multiple  units to bring it down to clear a whole UFO with a katana and a knife.

Would make sense in a fantasy/historical game, but here melee is rather niche, so I prefer to keep it as is. I just think it's more exciting this way.

- Some concrete  balance changes would  be: lower the weight  of the combat knife to 3, make the tonfa use the 50+ 0,5 accuracy, buff the chitin knife to the level of others knifes , the axes should  probably  be two handed weapons and have lower strength bonuses, the pitchfork  could do cutting damage, and the pickaxe could use normal  wepon mechanics now that they can hit terrain.

Knife is heavier to represent that it's heavier, tonfa is not a fence pale, chitin knife is weird be concept, axes are only two-handed in fantasy (unless you mean polearms), pitchfork from my experience doesn't have a cutting edge, and the pickaxe was left alone for a reason (like, it should not be a good martial weapon).

-  I 'm going to include here the laser cutter as I feel it needs a buff, as taking a hammer for demolition  is normally  a better idea, being  able to do similar  damage, and being much more multipurpose. Maybe it could  be remained as an anti-large weapon such as the sectopod for base defense missions with a lower TU cost and better CQC accuracy

I'm considering reviewing all anti-terrain values, so we'll see.

-Throwing  Knifes could use some base damage but get less damage bonus. They are a strange weapon in that they are practically  useless  below 70 accuracy  but at 100 they do some very serious  damage. I think it would  be preferable  if they had a lower skill factor to make them a better weapon to train throwing  ability  with.

No, they're damn hard to use. Especially one-bladed ones, like those in the mod.

Also the aimed shot could cost more but have more effective  range while having a similar  acc to the snap shot: right now there is little reason to use the snap.

Reactions, doh.

-Crossbows could be a single shot option  but do more damage. I don't know if it would  be possible to have stackable  items in the inventory,  but it is strange for them to have the same firerate of a sniper rifle. Also the harpoon  launcher is already a single shot weapon that gets completely  outclassed  by these weapons. Also their tritanium  arrows could probably  be at 36 damage to make them  more in line with other tritanium  ammo.

These are mostly necessary simplifications, and the damage - well, bolts aren't bullets. Tritanium bullets do more damage because they are allow for more extreme energies, which is irrelevant to crossbows.

- The heavy Xbow should  be heavier, but do much more base damage than the normal Xbow while having the same bonus as the normal version(make it a heavy cannon version of it). Xbow doesn't get their strength from the user directly,  so it is strange to see it so reliant of it. Ideally,  it should  be closer to the gas cannon in base damage to make the choice of heavy underwater weapons more interesting (right now while the Xbow scales better, the gas cannon two snap shot in one turn make it more useful).

The strength bonus is mostly due to efficient operation (no mechanism), but I admit it's rather counter-intuitive and your points are valid.

- while talking  about  underwater  weapons, the harpoon  launcher could  use a buff, as rigth now is a complete joke. First,  the max range needs to go: it doesn't make sense that other weapons doesn't  have it while the harpoon  launcher is impaired  by the laws of physics.  Secondly,  it could  use a damage buff to rifle levels, and maybe get a 0,1 firing accuracy  bonus like the xbow. Finally  the HE round could do damage similar to the tritanium  one. Considering underwater  units usually  have good concussive resistance , the current  round is close to useless. The balance  could  be that the Xbow is more accurate,  but the Launcher more hard hitting. Also if the xbow keeps their quiver clips, I think the harpoon launcher could use the same treatment.

All these are simplifications due to the fact that we can't have separate underwater versions of weapons.

Firearms general:
-Weapon damage mainly come from their weapon calibre. There are plenty  of examples of weapons firing the same round yet having different  damage values. For example the glock,Beretta and the Uzi or the Colt,the Tommy and the Mac10. This more a realism argument  than a gameplay  one although  I do think some of this weapons deserve a buff (Uzi at 20 is a joke, the colt could use a bit more damage).

Then we'd only need like 3 handgun models. Realism being realism, but that's just dull.

- Overall i quite like the balance early on, as there are many options and you are quite dependent on what your enemies bring to the table. I would however  make two changes: The calico could use SMG rate of fire (I will propose a 3x snap an a 6x auto) as rigth now it is a very poor weapon choice

Well, it's technically a pistol. :P

and the Nitro express  could use a higher base damage but a lower power bonus. It shoots a big round, where it hits should  make such a difference.  Treating it as a Sniper weapon may not be a bad idea

We have other such weapons.

- Another change I would  suggest is to make the 7.62 Nato rifles do more base damage rather than to rely  on a power bonus. More accurate  users already  benefit  from hitting the target more time anyways, and it is kinda of unnecessary.  I would  suggest a 34 damage round and also that it fires slower, maybe at a 30% snap minimum

See my comment on pistols.

- Continuing  with the rifles, maybe it wouldn't  be a bad idea to have the similar calibre rifles to have the same stats and their choice be mostly  cosmetical

See my comment on pistols.

-One weapon I would  slightly  nerf is the P-90 as it is too good rigth now. It combines a good ammo capacity, very good armor piercing for its  class and good accuracy.  It practically  outclasses every 5.56 rifle, and it is probably  the best rookie weapon even when black ops enter the game. I would be catious here and suggest that it's  damaged be reduced  to 22 like others SMG and it's  armor piercing  to 85%. In return I think a 5 burst auto could be good (in fact most smgs could get higher burst amounts) to make it better at CQC.

Well it's more advanced than other similar weapons, and I don't think it's that great - the competition from BlackOps and M.A.G.M.A. is fierce.
Also, see my comment on pistols. ;)

-Some minor changes would be: Bolt action should get the same accuracy  modifiers as the Nagant

Why???

the SVD should be treated as a sniper weapon when it comes to its  accuracy,

Seriously?  -_-

the PKM could use a 2 round snap shot at 30 % TU.

This is actually worth considering.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.7: Market Corrections
« Reply #3955 on: December 08, 2020, 06:36:08 pm »
- The HMG could get a 2 round shot.  Rigth now it is a weapon that you don't  want to be using most of the time, as it requires  a lot of patience  to use, and it is either a gross overkill, or a lottery machine with the way points. I feel that a snap shot option could  make it less situational, as more situations  were you want to use it a minigun would  work as well.

It's so OP that I don't want to also make it easy to use to boot.

- About pistols I can see two issues: the first one related to the balance between  magnun weapons and the standard pistols and on the second point  to the smart pistols.  On the first point,  magnun weapons fall short compare to standard  pistols mainly due to their poor armor performance. Sure they do more damage, but the final difference  is usually  not that big. Considering  their ammo clip size and their weight, they bring few advantages  to the table. Even the smart magnun  fall short as it quickly  runs out of ammo. The change I would make is to take out the armor penetration malus from this weapons, so their shots are more effective  against  the foes you usually  encounter.  About the smart pistol, the problem  is that it  simply  too good. Not only it completely overshadows the normal black ops pistol, is so good that it is even better than the later laser pistol.  I propose here two changes:make it heavier, 10 units of weight while loaded, and make it a little bit less accurate,  maybe 85% and 90%. It would  still be good, but the heavier weight specially  could  balance it a bit.

You have a very unusual view on this. Which again, means that the balance is right.

-The black ops smg could  get some armor piercing,  maybe 85% as the proposed P90 change, to make it a bit more viable. It currently  fall behind most other weapons for CQC

I'm sure this is why it's the most popular SMG, maybe after Mac-10...

- The Uac Smg could  be buffed as rigth now it is like a black ops rifle but worse. Better accuracy  would be welcome, and a larger magazine  could also prove helpful.

But why should it be so good?

- I think pulse weapons are an interesting  bunch. I do think that the LMG loaded with chem rounds is actually  a competitive weapon in the hands of accurate soldiers due to the power accuracy  bonus, but overall  they do feel a bit lackluster due to their accuracy  and their weigth. (...)

Sorry but these observations seem rather off, and do not match my observations, not observations of other reviewers.

- With that said about pulse weapons, I think rifle selection could be improved. Rigth now we have the 2 black ops rifles, the UAC one, the Smart rifle and the pulse rifle. Currently  the smart rifle is the superior  option ,as it overperform the normal black ops rifles, the pulse rifle have it's issues and the UAC rifle is a joke. Keeping the line established with the previous  line of rifles, I would  suggest  changing  the smart rifle ammo to do less damage but be armor piercing. I would suggest a 24 damage normal bullet and a 32 tritanium one, making the maximum  damage of the auto equal to the one of an auto burst from an assault, and with a 90% AP damage. (...)

TBH I really think you are overestimating the smart rifle. I guess it's okay as is, and certainly doesn't seem that popular.

- Some minor changes i would make would be: get the tritanium  shotgun shell do 55 damage like the CAWS clip; make the UAC shotgun fire quicker to maybe 30% snap, 65% aimed;

Completely arbitrary.

and increase  the reload cost of the Thrasher  to 15 or 20 TU, as it can shoot very quick for such a good weapon.

Because it's hand-loaded. Like the Doom shotgun.

-  I feel like the auto could get a much faster firerate. Considering  rigth now the only advantage  it has is an auto setting, and lacking slug rounds, even the standard black ops shotgun seem like a better deal. I would  argue to get it armor piercing dart rounds, but I think a two round snap shot an a 4 shot  auto could improve it a bit. I feel like the two round snap is could be enough  buff.
- The smart shotgun is a bit underwhelming, considering  it is supposed  to be one of the most advanced  shotguns. While accurate and fast firing, it has a bad shotgun ammo (worse than the saw off) and needs to be shooted with two hands, while being worse than a CAWS as a main shotgun choice. I would  make three changes:make it lighter,  remove the one hand penalty and finally reduce the pellets spread. I could see this weapon working as a secondary  weapon, specially  for undeecover missions, rather than being a main weapon candidate.

It's not a sawed-off. I would have to make a new weapon.
And the spread is standard. I don't think it should be better, but I'm open to suggestions.

- I think that giving sniper rifles all the same power bonus could help. (...)

Yeah yeah, make all weapons the same. Meh.

-One weapon i would change is the auto sniper, as i fell is underwhelming  compare to his  bolt action brother. The issue i see here is that it shoots as quickly  as the normal rifle while being  more or less just as accurate.  The auto setting i feel is not that great, usually  missing rounds. I would change it to be more of a marksman rifle, with a 35% snap shot, more accurate  auto setting  and removing the minimum  range, with a less powerful  power bonus. A better rifle for gun an running,  but less for stationary combat.

But it's not what this weapon is...

- the light cannon could get a slight accuracy  boost as rigth now

You are literally insane. :D

- The sonic heavy cannon should weigth less, as with the focused clip it weigths a staggering  amount of 64 weigth units, making it impractical  to use it in battle. A weight  more in line with other heavy weapons would probably  make more sense , maybe at 48 weigth when fully loaded.

Your men just aren't ready yet. :)

- The cyber web normal weapons (the Ionizer, the Ion blaster and the lightning  thrower) need to be more accurate  and fire slightly  faster. While their X dimension arsenal is fine, their earth weapons usually  only fire once per turn and completely  miss their target.  Being also quite heavy, their use by Xcom is difficult  to justify

All working as designed. (Anytrhing else would wreck any semblance of balance.)

Different  damage types are already  a big point of using different  grenades/missile/shell  types, but i don't  think having 0-200 ones mixed with 50-150 ones are good for balance.

It's more of a bug category. I'll review any discrepancies, they tend to accumulate.

- About  missile  launchers,  one I find in a bad position is the multi-launcher. This weapon is more of a competitor of the auto cannon than the normal missile launcher, with very few advantages  and one big flaw in it's ammo weigth.  Also the lack of power of its  missiles means that is usually  a best idea to bring a normal missile launcher for longer  range support.  I think a lower missile pack weigth could help, along with an accuracy  in the lines of the other launchers.

It's a quad launcher. It launches quads. It doesn't have to be competitive. :D

- The advanced missile launcher should  only be used for mind guided missiles. The current setup allows for troops to take reaction shoots with this missile type. The E-115 missile should  in turn go to the normal mssile launcher, as a final upgrade to it

Why prevent reacting, though? It's up to the player.

- The auto mortar should be what his name imply.  The current accuracy  model 70 %*0,75*300% makes it perfectly  accurate  at any range, which for a weapon that usually  one shoots any targets it hits, is mind boggling.  I would  prefer if the weapon had the same accuracy  of the normal mortar but having a two round magazine  that could be auto fire with way points.

Hmm, interesting, though might be OP. Worth considering.

-Should shrapnel  weapons leave fire after hitting? I do think that this type of weapon already  overperform  over normal concussive weapons, but the extra fire seems unnecessary.  Considering  also that cutting  is a better weapon damage type than concussive  when it comes to enemy resistances, i think that the extra blast radius of this weapons is not very balanced.

It's a side effect. I could specifically disable it, but it's too awesome. :)

- I think this weapons deserve  the two roll system considering  the nature of their attack. Acid could probably  splash in the case of the canister gun or cover a wide area in case of the chemo gun, so even near misses could still do damage.

It think it'd make them too reliable.

- Speaking of the chemo gun, a lower TU use would help it a lot. Being a weapon with such a close range, the rather high TU usage of 65% makes it impractical  to use in more situations,  specially  compare to a minigun,  as you will expose your agent to just use it one. I think this weapon has more in common with the flamethrower, and it should be better suited for close assult use.

Chem weapons are always practical. I don't want to make them even better.

- the last big change i would  proposem I think most of this weapons should  stop using the vanilla damage effect and use a 50-150 formula. Most napalm ammo already  work like this, so it would  make sense that the night ligther incendiary rocket worked this way.

It works like any other flame weapon. Which is certainly not 0-200. (It has damageType: 2.)

As for the flamer, the current utility  of the weapon is rather limited as enemies would usually  survive a full auto shot from it.

Yeah, and spend the rest of the battle running around and screaming.

Hilariously it seems to work better against  4 tile units like sectopods, ignoring  their armor and doing 4 times the damage.

It's not hilarious, it's perfectly normal, and the mechanics (armours, resistances) accounts for this obvious effect.

I'm going to leave it here because  I have write quite enough  already 8) One last suggestion,  make handcuffs  be usable with one hand rather than requiring  two, as they are quite limited  as they are rigth now.

That would be silly. Also, I have no interest in promoting handcuffs beyond their current usability.

Ps I may have overdid by quite a big margin lol

Well for what it's worth, I'm grateful. :)

Meridian is notoriously unwilling to do features suggested by non-modders. Which is completely understandable, why bother to do something that will never be used.

So the only strong argument will be that it would be used by somebody.

I can imagine having a terror mission during a parade. And a wave after wave of parade formations showing up on the street. :)
Or a bunch of hunter showing up to hunt Strange Creatures.

Okay, I don't have very specific plans here, but I guess it wouldn't be hard to come up with mission ideas. :)

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.7: Market Corrections
« Reply #3956 on: December 08, 2020, 09:09:49 pm »
Well I'm glad it could  be useful, because  I doubt  I'm doing it again   8)  And yes more of my observations  are highly  subjective and without  too much experience  to back them up as it is literally  my second game with this mod, but  I think is always useful  to give a personal  point of view.

That's a really odd statement. What's easier, hitting people with a stick or hitting people with your bare fist? (And spears win anyway.)
I really can't  tell as I'm not a expert  on melee weapons, but I do think a knife is easier to use than a sword from what i read and see. The effectiveness  of them is a completely  different  question, but it seems to me that knife requires  less skill. In the mod Knifes already are less accurate with a 75% chance to hit, so it would  already  take that they are harder to hit with into account .


 ..chitin knife is weird be concept, axes are only two-handed in fantasy (unless you mean polearms), pitchfork from my experience doesn't have a cutting edge, and the pickaxe was left alone for a reason (like, it should not be a good martial weapon).

Yes the chitin is a weird weapon which I think  is fine, but considering  it comes rather late in game, it could  be at the base level damage of the tritanium  knife. And I should have clarify in this point, but isn't  the axe just a woodworking normal axe? Considering  it is in the hands of civilians. As for the pitchfork, you are stabbing  a man with it, not to different  from thrusting  with a knife, so cutting  seem more fitting.
I'm considering reviewing all anti-terrain values, so we'll see.


All these are simplifications due to the fact that we can't have separate underwater versions of weapons.
Yes I suppose so. I do think however  that the weapon needs a heavy buff, at least work like X-bows do. On underwater  missions  you can bring 5 harpoons per person max while heavily limiting  your inventory  space, and a normal crossbow outclasses  it most of the time.

Well, it's technically a pistol. :P

I supposed it was meme more than anything  else, but considering  it has a auto setting , giving it more smg stats wouldn't  hurt


See my comment on pistols.

See my comment on pistols.
I do think it is strange that rifles shooting  a bigger bullet are more dependent  on user accuracy  than smaller bullet rifles. As for the second  point I don't  think it would  reduce choice as currently  some of those rifles are worse in every aspect to other. I know it is strange to bring the Austin argument to a 1995 game, but if I want to use the Ak47 over the AKM I don't  think it should  punished by worst stats.


Well it's more advanced than other similar weapons, and I don't think it's that great - the competition from BlackOps and M.A.G.M.A. is fierce.
Also, see my comment on pistols. ;)
I actually  find it better than the black ops smg (significantly  more accurate )and the MAGMA Smg is rather heavy which is an important  downside. Regardless,  I think that at least the armor piercing  should be reduced:the P-90 shoots bullets similar to the ones of rifles, it shouldn't  outperform them on this point (I assume that the rifles are using AP ammo).

Why???
It gets the same damage stats while being easier to aim, make more funny by the fact the Mosin is scoped while the rifle uses iron sights


Seriously?  -_-
It is a sniper rifle and should  be treated as such. The vintorez fulfills a similar role (being even more intended  for closer quarters than the SVD) and it uses the square formula as well. I know it is arbitrary to decide  what each weapon gets, but I do think the formula  would reflect  better it's intended use.

It's so OP that I don't want to also make it easy to use to boot.
I'am missing something  here because  i can't  see how it could be very OP. You can't  shoot an run with it, shooting  it eats a whole turn, using it for one enemy is a huge overkill, spraying with it is a lottery and it's weigth limits heavily  it's usage and possible  load out. A tactical  sniper or a minigun  seems like much more optimal  load out, and from my experience with it there are much better weapons for a similar use.

You have a very unusual view on this. Which again, means that the balance is right.
  Just to clarify, I was referring  to the tritanium  drum. Not that magnun  aren't  good weapons, but I think the black ops pistols are more effective  against  enemies at this stage (syndicate, cyberweb) than magnun rounds.

I'm sure this is why it's the most popular SMG, maybe after Mac-10...
There is clearly something  I don't  see here  :-\


Sorry but these observations seem rather off, and do not match my observations, not observations of other reviewers.
Just to inquire,  what is the general consensus of them? I researched them rather late (with laser rifles on the field), but the chem rounds seems to be specifically  good in the LMG (in that they can drop a muton in one hit, or melt a black sun soldier with an auto burst) but the other ones fall more on the heavy side of things and their chem rounds being unable to deal properly  with armor.


Completely arbitrary.
On the first one the shotgun slug does the same damage in the shotgun and the CAWS, while their tritanium  versions  differ, so I thought  there was a typo. On the second point,  the UAC shotgun  could be buffed to at least be more competitive , as it is the slower firing shotgun  rigth now while being limited to a heavier shell types


And the spread is standard. I don't think it should be better, but I'm open to suggestions.
If it isn't  a sawed-off  of then it's  range performance  could be better , which all the computer stuff and such. And as I said, make it usable for one handed use, so that it could be paired with a pistol or a smg


But it's not what this weapon is...
The turbo sniper already  gets similar stats, and i thought the auto was similar it, being a in-between  the sniper and the rifle.

You are literally insane. :D
I was going to originally propose  for it to do auto cannon damage ;D . But for real, the Auto cannon is more accurate  than it which is something I can't completely understand. I love the concept  of the weapon with its multiple  ammo types, but I do feel it gets obsolete  rather fast.


Why prevent reacting, though? It's up to the player.
Mind guided missiles can only be "launched " yet reactions use the snap shot  action, which seems unintended.


It think it'd make them too reliable.
Well, then at the less the canister  launcher could get this treatment.  It doesn't  carry much ammo and it's not specifically accurate,  and the projectiles it shoot would probably  still damage you if hitting close enough.



It works like any other flame weapon. Which is certainly not 0-200. (It has damageType: 2.)
Yes that what I was referring  too. So instead  of the incendiary  rocket working as in vanilla, it could work like the napalm grenades. That was also why I proposed  removing shrapnel  weapon fire effects.  Why bring incendiaries if they do less damage and do much less effect?


Yeah, and spend the rest of the battle running around and screaming.
With a dead guy from the reaction fire from a plasma gun 7 titles away  :P Don't get me wrong I like flame weapons as a concept, but their usability  leaves a lot to be desired.  Sure they take away the enemy morale, but  there are weapons that do exactly  that while doing damage (chem weapons for example). Also using it against  zombies is very disappointing,  specially   considering  how good are napalm rounds against  them. At the very least it could cause no reaction fire (you are being burned alive after all!) to make it less suicidal.
It's not hilarious, it's perfectly normal, and the mechanics (armours, resistances) accounts for this obvious effect.

Side question: Why do we need enemy dropouts for gauss and mass driver weapons? In Final you can just research them organically, so I wonder why the change.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.7: Market Corrections
« Reply #3957 on: December 09, 2020, 10:54:47 am »
I really can't  tell as I'm not a expert  on melee weapons, but I do think a knife is easier to use than a sword from what i read and see. The effectiveness  of them is a completely  different  question, but it seems to me that knife requires  less skill.

It certainly doesn't, or else people wouldn't have invented swords. ;)
 
Yes the chitin is a weird weapon which I think  is fine, but considering  it comes rather late in game, it could  be at the base level damage of the tritanium  knife. And I should have clarify in this point, but isn't  the axe just a woodworking normal axe? Considering  it is in the hands of civilians. As for the pitchfork, you are stabbing  a man with it, not to different  from thrusting  with a knife, so cutting  seem more fitting.

Regarding the chitin knife: yeah, it's pretty weak for its level, but then it's more like a gadget than a serious weapon. you wnat a short-bladed weapon from Shogg, you use the dragon dagger.
Axe: ity is indeed a woodworking axe, which is usually used one-handed, sometimes two-handed (based n personal experience - I chopped some wood in my life). So this is a bit of a simplification.
Pitchfork: unlike in Piratez, we don't have a special stabbing damage type here, so I decided to approximate it to a bullet rather than a blade. Yes, it's arbitrary, just felt more appropriate to me.

Yes I suppose so. I do think however  that the weapon needs a heavy buff, at least work like X-bows do. On underwater  missions  you can bring 5 harpoons per person max while heavily limiting  your inventory  space, and a normal crossbow outclasses  it most of the time.

OK, we'll see, though it's pretty hard.

As for the second  point I don't  think it would  reduce choice as currently  some of those rifles are worse in every aspect to other. I know it is strange to bring the Austin argument to a 1995 game, but if I want to use the Ak47 over the AKM I don't  think it should  punished by worst stats.

Why would the AK-47 not be penalized against the AKM? It is, after all, much older design.

I actually  find it better than the black ops smg (significantly  more accurate )and the MAGMA Smg is rather heavy which is an important  downside. Regardless,  I think that at least the armor piercing  should be reduced:the P-90 shoots bullets similar to the ones of rifles, it shouldn't  outperform them on this point (I assume that the rifles are using AP ammo).

Splitting hairs... Such things aren't that well defined in the mod.

It gets the same damage stats while being easier to aim, make more funny by the fact the Mosin is scoped while the rifle uses iron sights

Easier to aim for chumps only. Mosin is for specialists and sometimes considered the best sniper rifle until advanced designs.

It is a sniper rifle and should  be treated as such.

It's a marksman rifle.

I'am missing something  here because  i can't  see how it could be very OP. You can't  shoot an run with it, shooting  it eats a whole turn, using it for one enemy is a huge overkill, spraying with it is a lottery and it's weigth limits heavily  it's usage and possible  load out. A tactical  sniper or a minigun  seems like much more optimal  load out, and from my experience with it there are much better weapons for a similar use.

Such things are never objective. The HMG is indeed hard to deploy, as it needs a bodybuilder to operatre. But once in the field, it cuts through terrain like butter and is basically a heavy sniper rifle, only based on Strength and not Firing Accuracy.

Just to clarify, I was referring  to the tritanium  drum. Not that magnun  aren't  good weapons, but I think the black ops pistols are more effective  against  enemies at this stage (syndicate, cyberweb) than magnun rounds.

That's actually good, the BlackOps pistol needs more love - nobody uses it...

Just to inquire,  what is the general consensus of them? I researched them rather late (with laser rifles on the field), but the chem rounds seems to be specifically  good in the LMG (in that they can drop a muton in one hit, or melt a black sun soldier with an auto burst) but the other ones fall more on the heavy side of things and their chem rounds being unable to deal properly  with armor.

Well, chem rounds in general are very effective against certain late game enemies.

On the first one the shotgun slug does the same damage in the shotgun and the CAWS, while their tritanium  versions  differ, so I thought  there was a typo. On the second point,  the UAC shotgun  could be buffed to at least be more competitive , as it is the slower firing shotgun  rigth now while being limited to a heavier shell types

CAWS has stronger pellets, but less of them.

The UAC Shotgun is pretty solid, I think. It doesn't have solids slug projectiles (yet anyway), but in terms of raw power it scales pretty logically. I think of it as a mini-Thrasher.

If it isn't  a sawed-off  of then it's  range performance  could be better , which all the computer stuff and such. And as I said, make it usable for one handed use, so that it could be paired with a pistol or a smg

OK, how about this: I'll leave it as it is, but will decrease the penalty for using it one-handed. Say, to -30% (stanard is -50%). Good?

I was going to originally propose  for it to do auto cannon damage ;D . But for real, the Auto cannon is more accurate  than it which is something I can't completely understand.

It's much heavier, so of course it's more accurate. Or am I missing something? What is your agrument against it?

I love the concept  of the weapon with its multiple  ammo types, but I do feel it gets obsolete  rather fast.

Well bigger is better, but it's not easy to have agents stgrong enough to use the two bigger designs. I guess you didn't have this issue as much.

Mind guided missiles can only be "launched " yet reactions use the snap shot  action, which seems unintended.

Well, true, but I don't think it's bad design. I'll think about it more.

Well, then at the less the canister  launcher could get this treatment.  It doesn't  carry much ammo and it's not specifically accurate,  and the projectiles it shoot would probably  still damage you if hitting close enough.

All the more reason to make it more random!

Yes that what I was referring  too. So instead  of the incendiary  rocket working as in vanilla, it could work like the napalm grenades. That was also why I proposed  removing shrapnel  weapon fire effects.  Why bring incendiaries if they do less damage and do much less effect?

OK, I'll tink about it at some point. It needs a holistic approach.

With a dead guy from the reaction fire from a plasma gun 7 titles away  :P Don't get me wrong I like flame weapons as a concept, but their usability  leaves a lot to be desired.  Sure they take away the enemy morale, but  there are weapons that do exactly  that while doing damage (chem weapons for example). Also using it against  zombies is very disappointing,  specially   considering  how good are napalm rounds against  them. At the very least it could cause no reaction fire (you are being burned alive after all!) to make it less suicidal.

Hmm, OK, I'll see what I can do about that.

Side question: Why do we need enemy dropouts for gauss and mass driver weapons? In Final you can just research them organically, so I wonder why the change.

In Final there are no Reptoids as a separate faction. Here kinetic weapons are essentially Reptoid tech.

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.7: Market Corrections
« Reply #3958 on: December 09, 2020, 12:01:29 pm »
I haven’t played this wonderful mod for a long time, and have never even gone through it even to the middle.
But I constantly read the forum and just stunned by all the announced changes.
This is really very, very cool, thanks!

And yes, I wanted to ask, how many different types of terrain are currently involved in the modification?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 02:00:26 pm by Fiskun1 »

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Re: The X-Com Files - 1.7: Market Corrections
« Reply #3959 on: December 09, 2020, 05:09:01 pm »
Many thanks, Fiskun!

And yes, I wanted to ask, how many different types of terrain are currently involved in the modification?

This is pretty hard to answer, because it's not a clear issue.
- Do terrains with the same maps, but different tilesets (basically reskins) count as separate terrains? Example: Alien Base vs. Shogg Palace vs. UAC Base vs. Hybrid Base.
- Do terrains with the same tilesets, but different maps count? Example: Alien Base vs. Alien Tunnels.
- Do terrains which only work as part of other terrains count? Examples: Asylum Fence, various Urban Low additions.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2020, 01:43:19 pm by Solarius Scorch »