Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N10 24-Nov-2024 Aurora's Dawn

[ohartenstein23]

Why do you need to learn the intricacies?  For example, vanilla XCOM didn't ever tell you that Mutons were resistant to AP until after you killed/stunned one and researched it, or that fire works really well against cyberdisks, and it certainly never explained the damage mechanics.  It's a simple experiment - does the weapon work for what you want it to do? No? The use a different weapon.  The hit log that Meridian added (pressing CTRL+H after a hit/successful melee attack) goes a long way in making that experiment easier.  The game can't possible tell you all of the things that do and don't work for certain purposes, otherwise Dioxine would spend his time doing nothing but writing articles in the Bootypedia.

[Meridian]

It's pretty bizarre to expect...

It's bizarre to expect anything else... except for maybe Tetris, you need to experiment in all games.

[just_dont]

Why do you need to learn the intricacies?  For example, vanilla XCOM didn't ever tell you that Mutons were resistant to AP until after you killed/stunned one and researched it, or that fire works really well against cyberdisks, and it certainly never explained the damage mechanics.

1) I'm absolutely fine about not knowing unit's specific weaknesses and quirks until it is researched. However, in this particular case, researching it won't help;
2) Regarding cyberdisks, it's pretty obvious (after reading in-game information) that fire WILL work on cyberdisks, the only thing that you're not told - is that it will work to a far greater extent that you'd likely to expect. In other words, an issue with quantities (fire works all too well on 2x2 units) rather than with qualities (2x2 units are immune to extra stun damage, "because they just are").

But most of all, giving examples on vanilla XCOM isn't very convincing - it's not an ideal game, it does have lots of quirks, and a lot of those quirks were categorized as "bugs" by fans and subsequently fixed with fan patches and patch tools.

It's bizarre to expect anything else... except for maybe Tetris, you need to experiment in all games.

Yes, you do. No, experimenting won't take you too far if the game doesn't provide you with enough data to make conclusions. Hit log is pretty great, but it gives only binary "yes/no" answers, nothing else. When I encountered this situation - I went on and wrote a post about special damage, because it's the only available piece of information, that reapers have strong special damage resist, so I concluded that it's the cause.

Given a very extensive experiment outside of normal gameplay (breaking all armor on a reaper then trying to stun it), I'd discover that my previous conclusion was wrong, but then my next conclusion would be "it's a bug" - a behavior that's both not really plausible within game's setting and not documented (as a special case).

[Solarius Scorch]

Just_dont, you seem to indicate a problem which I think nobody really understands. At least I don't - I understand you want more information, but not what and how exactly.

If you want to be clearer, I suggest you make a minimod with your changes. That would be a concrete proposition that can actually be examined. Otherwise I think this won't get anywhere.

[Meridian]

Hit log is pretty great, but it gives only binary "yes/no" answers, nothing else.

It gives ternary big/small/no damage info.
It could give a lot more, but it was a conscious decision not to do it... and thus keep at least some of what you are complaining here about.
Because believe it or not, most of us don't want to know everything about everything.

[just_dont]

Just_dont, you seem to indicate a problem which I think nobody really understands. At least I don't - I understand you want more information, but not what and how exactly.

Well, I learned about the true cause of the problem (2x2 units immune to extra ToStun damage) only when ohartenstein23 told me about it. So I'm not really sure how it can be improved. At first, I thought it's a problem with a particular unit and damage types. Now I see that it's a game mechanics quirk.

I think it would be enough to just mention it somewhere (so far Dioxine packed A LOT of useful information here and there into bootypedia, for example, the bit about fire damage greatly effecting big units is in there). But I'm not sure where exactly.

It could give a lot more, but it was a conscious decision not to do it... and thus keep at least some of what you are complaining here about.

A comprehensive hit log still wouldn't give an answer to "why it's happening this way?".
Hit log is not the issue here. It's a good tool and it's working as expected.

[Dioxine]

Dude, I don't get your problem either. Is it really important to KNOW WHY? Experimenting is about knowing what works and what doesn't.

[khade]

While I do sympathize, I like to imagine the Gals having the same reaction.

"Why isn't this thing working?!? I'm hitting it, I know I am!" *pulls out a chainsaw*

[just_dont]

While I do sympathize, I like to imagine the Gals having the same reaction.
"Why isn't this thing working?!? I'm hitting it, I know I am!" *pulls out a chainsaw*

Eh, it's more of a "it doesn't work because it's a pileup of game mechanic quirks".
It's a quirky interaction between 2x2 units (by default immune to ToStun damage, which is dealt as stun alongside with main damage type) and PirateZ, which, starting at some version, had things like cattle prods doing plasma damage (to work vs. plasma resist) but 0% of it to health. A year or so ago they were simply dealing stun damage (although I don't remember if we had practical uses for stunned big units back then).

Now, unfortunately, it's also a situation where any change will produce a lot of unintended side-effects within the mod. Stun batons were switched to plasma damage type for a reason, and other units' resistances are balanced for it. So changing stun batons is hardly an option. Removing pain immunity from certain big units is more plausible - well, except that big units are still pretty "special", and even if OpenXCOM fixed them burning at x4 power, they are still suffering x4 damage from AoE weapons (1 instance of damage for each tile) - so they'll be getting x4 ToStun damage as well, because, well, most of the weapons, including grenades, deal some ToStun damage. Which could make them too prone to fainting in about any situation - so quite a lot of additional balancing will be needed as to not make such units too easy to stun.

That's why I wrote about "such a quirk should be noted somewhere", it's probably the easiest option to note it to player rather than engage in any kind of rebalancing. I don't particularly care if it's going to be noted or not - I can look at the source code and figure out the damage-dealing mechanics that's currently running in OXCE, but I can imagine that other players might not be doing so. Anyway, if this topic will be raised repeatedly by different players - perhaps something will be done on it; and if not - then it's good as is.

[khade]

I thought the switch to plasma damage for the electrical stunning weapons was to get around that sort of thing, as stun it an actual damage type.  The fact that we can capture those types of creatures at all should indicate that it is in fact possible to stun them, though through less than direct means.

[just_dont]

I thought the switch to plasma damage for the electrical stunning weapons was to get around that sort of thing, as stun it an actual damage type.  The fact that we can capture those types of creatures at all should indicate that it is in fact possible to stun them, though through less than direct means.

It's vice-versa, it's possible to stun them directly (damage type == stun), and not possible indirectly (damage type == anything else + ToStun). However, in this case stun baton and cattle prod comes to be indirect stunners

Subsequently, if a big unit has 0% stun damage modifier - you can't stun it at all, while if a normal unit has 0% stun damage modifier - you still can stun via ToStun damage dealt through different damage types, such as plasma (stun baton), piercing (manacles), and so on.

[Riph]

I gave up on understanding or optimizing stun output in OpenXcom.  Dedicated stun weapons like the cattle prod are terrible, the fisticuffs are bizarrely effective.  The electro whip is decent.

Nothing touches the tower shield though.  The tower shield gets things done.  If you need something stunned, you use the tower shield.

Yes, my gals are stomping around in power armor with plasma guns, except for the poor fool in platemail.  I should mod the tower shield to be able to exist outside of a builtIn AUX weapon.

[legionof1]

The tower shield is actually not the best in terms of raw output. The gunbut attack of the linux origami smg is stronger with maximum of 101 base dmg in brute armor. Tower only reaches 92 max base damage. Origami also has less lethal conversion at .1 rather then .25.  However Tower shield is more accurate at 90% vs 80% and 4 TU faster.

They are pretty close in terms maximum possibility but the origami needs the brute armor to exceed the tower shield in performance. Incidentally brute armor also ups the origami shooting damage to be comparable or exceed most rifles and smgs.  Gauss, plasma, or homefront MAG rounds being the things that beat it in flat dmg.

Brute+Origamis has been my late game basic kit for quite some time now due the combination of good armor, nigh or complete immunity to psi/morale problems, and reasonably powerful and versatile(lethal or non) offense. High str also allows you to carry some bigger arms without worrying about weight

[just_dont]

Cattle prod can reach up to 140 stun damage (vs. plasma resistance) due to 0-200% damage roll on it. Still quite inferior to origami + brute, not to mention being highly inconsistent and costing 20 TUs. But since it's available early, it's actually a very good stunner vs. mid-game armored enemies.

[legionof1]

I dont find the prod effective at all. Even the standard buttstrike is 20+.6Xstr which tops out at 68 base without str boosting armor. And less juggling inventory for changing situations. Str grows quite easily and has far shorter time to maximum then most stats. Have maxed str is almost a given beyond a certain number of missions. Also small fraction amounts of lethal dmg reduce the ablity of the foes to regain themselves during a mission, since stunned status is stun dmg higher then current hp. Also more dmg towards the stunned state. Percentage lethal is effectively +% dmg when your trying for stunned state. Provided your target is of reasonable hp.