Author Topic: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N8 28-Apr-2024 Labyrinthus Noctis  (Read 3694865 times)

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #975 on: October 15, 2015, 07:27:19 pm »
I haven't gotten very far tech wise in XPiratez, but my experience in Piratez was that there was little progression in melee weapons. The hammer is always great and I don't think you upgrade it (although some other weapons come to surpass it somewhat). Similarly newer melee weapons (higher tech swords) are much less of an upgrade than what you see in guns that go from useless unless the target is unarmored (and even then...) to really quite powerful.

Now not having definite tiers of tech is one thing I like about Piratez. There's no "coveralls + ballistics" followed by "personal armor + lasers" followed by "power armor + plasma". There is progression, but it is a lot smoother. Ex.: you can upgrade your tac armor to different things that are still useful later in the game, you get such a wide variety of guns and "guns familly", that it's not just a matter of "unlocking the next tier" and upgrading everyone. And then there are the "upgrades by variations", like new ammo types or bayonets, which are pretty cool too.

But, it seems like melee doesn't change that much and between hammers, axes and billhooks, you have an answer to a lot of problems from day one (especially if you can keep some gals alive and reach really high strength). Actually, that might be why I don't see a need to upgrade as much: My gals don't die enough, reach too high a strength and then they break the system. Something that doesn't really happen with guns since the damage doesn't go up with stats (much).
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 07:29:37 pm by Arthanor »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #976 on: October 15, 2015, 07:39:23 pm »
Hmm... so you're basically saying that early melee is too powerful compared to later variants, and it scales too much with stats? (one-hitting powerful enemies in melee when your stats are high is, I think, quite all right, not really breaking the system - there is also the problem - if melee is too weak, you start to think about how risky it sometimes is - even though enemies don't react to melee attacks nowadays, which is a major advantage). Hmm... cutlass peaks at about 95 damage, while the Electro-Sword at about 135. While there is difference, it is indeed not that pronounced, especially since 95 is a LOT anyway...
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 07:44:30 pm by Dioxine »

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #977 on: October 15, 2015, 07:57:30 pm »
Hmm... so you're basically saying that early melee is too powerful compared to later variants....

I sense a melee nerf coming. ;)
Cheers, Ivan :D

Offline jmf

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #978 on: October 15, 2015, 08:01:57 pm »
Some (and more planned), but the melee part of the balance has to be there from day one (so does the alternative option to engage powered armor - and your only other option, before voodoo, are high explosives), and it wouldn't make much sense to have flintlocks next to power swords. The rationale is, powered armor wasn't designed against melee, and what we see in the game as a melee hit, is actually a whole attack maneuver (irl, you don't slash a heavily armored enemy across their body - you either use a dedicated AP weapon, like warhammer, or trip them and stab into weak areas). None the less, I might add some "armor class" to powered armor... to make it harder to perform a successful attack. I don't want the power-armored enemies to be undefeatable except for some trick you need to know (the trick being, 'buy a Panzerfaust').

Well it's always your choice, but it'd allow nice cheats (like using an axe with your melee stat around 20-30 due to wearing a non-melee armor).
As for making ranged armor a starting armor... I don't know (if so, then with some painful penalties - like Reactions and carrying capacity). Early research, yeah, but not from day one. 'No Armor' should also be a viable option IMO, it's not there just to be eye-candy. Plus you need some incentive to research stuff :)

well is the future of course power sword would look nice....in late game at least(when you are not using muskets)  i'm not asking for early tech of course, also when designing my fan sniper gear i was thinking in this: the googles allow to see better in distance but like the night googles, they are bad at close range, affecting reactions and close/mid range and walking TU, also if we take the googles it work as eye candy for day one  :P, carrying capacity i did not think of that but is a good idea

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #979 on: October 15, 2015, 08:09:03 pm »
I just think these armours are badass (big biker chicks yay), I don't care if they're necessary as long as they're in the game and balanced. :P

Offline jmf

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #980 on: October 15, 2015, 08:12:40 pm »
I just think these armours are badass (big biker chicks yay), I don't care if they're necessary as long as they're in the game and balanced. :P
is the one i did right?, if so i'm flattered :P

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #981 on: October 15, 2015, 08:32:36 pm »
is the one i did right?, if so i'm flattered :P

Of course! :)
Sure they need a lot of polishing, or actually making them from scratch with actual pixel art, but I do love the concept.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #982 on: October 15, 2015, 10:40:00 pm »
Hmm... so you're basically saying that early melee is too powerful compared to later variants, and it scales too much with stats? (one-hitting powerful enemies in melee when your stats are high is, I think, quite all right, not really breaking the system - there is also the problem - if melee is too weak, you start to think about how risky it sometimes is - even though enemies don't react to melee attacks nowadays, which is a major advantage). Hmm... cutlass peaks at about 95 damage, while the Electro-Sword at about 135. While there is difference, it is indeed not that pronounced, especially since 95 is a LOT anyway...

Indeed, the difference in peak damage is small and you "quickly" get to areas where you don't really need more. Instead of 40 more damage giving you a one hit kill, you can often spare the TUs and stamina to strike twice and get the same result. But the main interesting thing to me is that it scales differently. I don't know how much damage the endgame melee (or ranged) weapons do, but it is undeniable that there is a combination of factors that favours melee regardless of weapon tier in how they advance and actually keeps entry level weapons (axe, hammer, cutlass, billhook) competitive rather late in the game in the hands of experienced gals, while muskets and rifles have long been obsolete regardless of who wields them (actually, can still be good as cheap training weapons for taking potshots for experience.. but I don't do "training exploits").

Quick scaling:
Ranged: More TUs doesn't shoot more. More accuracy hits more, until you reach ~90% (which is fast on a few weapons). Reactions + accuracy helps for snapshots on enemy turns, but that's really risky (snap accuracies aren't great, ranged damage isn't either, and the enemy can get mutual surprise or just flank you, so it's risky even in end game). More stam is pretty meaningless since you spend most of your TUs shooting and don't need to move that much. Str is maybe your biggest boon because you can carry a bigger gun. That's pretty much your only way to improve damage, since it rarely scales otherwise.

Melee: More TUs mean more strikes. More accuracy hits more and it takes longer to reach 100% to hit. More reactions increases your survivability by preventing reactions against you (it's risky to charge, but it gets less and less risky), more stam your mobility. More strength means more damage.

So there's only 2 ways to improve ranged damage: Better accuracy up to a certain, sometimes easily reachable point, and a bigger gun (big difference, but it means lots of research). There's 4 ways to increase melee damage: Better accuracy, better TUs, better Str and better weapon (but as you said, not that much of a difference).

I like the way things scale, the fixed TU cost of melee is nice to represent faster strikes from faster gals and the increase in damage from str is obviously needed. I think this works well in the early games, when gals are mid-ranged stats-wise and have rather low str. But once you get experienced gals, the melee ones benefit a lot more from stats gain (pretty much everything is helping) and can do things with starting melee weapons that are really impressive. This, in turns, makes higher end melee weapons less exciting because you are already "fine", whereas upgrading guns is primordial since it is close to the only way to improve ranged output. Which is a bit unfortunate in two ways: It's much harder to build a ranged monster, and it's much harder to be really excited about a new melee weapon because you already have a monster.

I'd like to see some scaling in damage on more ranged weapons, rifle +5-10% of accuracy? Snipers +10-15? Or maybe scale with reactions to encourage people to "risk it"? Reactions then also becomes good for shooty gals as they react to targets can spot weaknesses faster. That doesn't change much but it adds an extra scaling to ranged combat to restore the balance a bit. Or have some more ranged weapons with fixed firing costs, so increased TUs on the gals mean they can fire (or run) more, like it does for melee. If an experienced melee gal can strike "faster" (TU cost is a smaller % of her TUs), why can't an experience shooty gal aim faster? She won't hit for more damage, after all. Or if she takes the same time to aim than a starting gal (same % of TUs), then she should hit somewhere more painful since she is a better shot (back to damage scale with accuracy).

Melee also has another advantage: 12 extra TUs and you went from front armor to back armor and 12 TUs is a small fraction of your total. For a shooty gal it's often impossible to both flank and shoot, but that's somewhat mitigated by being able to spread out more so some gals are already flanking.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 10:51:41 pm by Arthanor »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #983 on: October 15, 2015, 11:08:30 pm »
Sorry about combo-breaking this (actually very interesting) topic, but I just made some experimental rank icons and wanted to share them.

Sure, they're not as great as the original graphics, but at least they're not X-Com ranks any more, which kind of annoy me in the mod. :P Besides, they're still better than TFTD graphics, because everything is.

The icons are black, because you know, black flag, but it can be changed easily.

PS: That separate icon, a shell, is a reject. :P
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 11:10:09 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #984 on: October 15, 2015, 11:11:56 pm »
To answer the basic question: no, I won't make ranged damage nowhere as scaleable as melee damage (although some buffs are possible, on a case-to-case basis - more like a special advantage of some weapons than a rule). This is a major game design point: while melee weapons favor high stats, firearms should give you reliability instead. What works in favor of veterans (stat-based damage, speed) disfavors less experienced soldiers. Also, armors with high TU and Stam penalties do not penalize ranged fighters that much. So both realms - melee and ranged - should be different on that basic philosophical level. Melee is the epitome of skill (both soldier's and player's) and initiative. But this is only one of several approaches to warfare; I don't want my mod to be heavily skewed towards any one approach (other approaches are trickery, reliability, and endurance); these discussions are helpful as I am myself skewed towards initiative, and often can't see if the other realms are properly balanced.

Having said that, re-balance of melee seems to be in order... I'll keep their higher damage output compared to guns (well, top-tier guns have a tremendous damage output), but make them scale a bit less, at least the early models. Let's not forget that guns have one major advantage: abusing LoS and pelting the enemies with ranged fire they cannot respond to, even without using any good armor. Closing in to get to melee is always risky; I've lost many veterans to an unforeseen flank shot.

@Solar: yeah, the ranks need to be replaced :) The ones you've posted are quite good, although they'd need some color, and I'm not sure what the last one is supposed to depict :) Not perfect, but clearly, an improvement over what we have now...
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 11:14:30 pm by Dioxine »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #985 on: October 15, 2015, 11:27:59 pm »
@Solar: yeah, the ranks need to be replaced :) The ones you've posted are quite good, although they'd need some color, and I'm not sure what the last one is supposed to depict :) Not perfect, but clearly, an improvement over what we have now...

Thanks, it's the first attempt so I'm kinda happy with it.
As for the last one, it's obviously a female pirate captain! :P

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #986 on: October 15, 2015, 11:45:36 pm »
@Dioxine: Interesting! I tend to balance different combat modes similarly to get a uniform scaling, since I want the ability to make an awesome sniper or commando as much as an awesome stabber. But it's Piratez and it's a bit more of a fantasy setting, so I can see wanting to make melee the one more suited to "heroes", like it is in, say, 40k.

@Solarius: Those are cool! I like the black and white but it seems like it wouldn't fit in the very colorful XCom UI. I could see them being golden, to look like embossed medals or something? Also, what about a kraken for the last one? Go from a seashell to seahorse to shark to a sea monster!

Offline jmf

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #987 on: October 16, 2015, 12:44:48 am »
Of course! :)
Sure they need a lot of polishing, or actually making them from scratch with actual pixel art, but I do love the concept.
Huia Thanks you
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 01:22:43 am by jmf »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #988 on: October 16, 2015, 12:46:55 am »
@Arthanor: Yeah, I wanted tentacles somewhere, but it's hard to draw. :) Maybe later.

And let me withhold with adding melee weapons to the Bootypedia for now, since it's possibly in the rebalance zone... XD

@jmf:

Offline Boltgun

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Re: [TOTAL CONVERSION] Piratez Extended - 0.95A - 3 Oct - Star Gods' Revenge
« Reply #989 on: October 16, 2015, 10:52:09 am »
@jmf: Yay for art, keep going!

@sola: For the black flag theme, the last one could be simply a crowned skull, pirate queen and all.

About melee, it's a staple of many games that ranged damage it based on the weapon and melee on the user. To quote Warhammer 40k, "Why use the best gun of the galaxy if your opponent crush your head with a rock?". At best we could have less base damage and more bonus so it 'upgrades' when your gals get more stats? It worked well for the sniper rifles.