Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N10 24-Nov-2024 Aurora's Dawn

[Arthanor]

I trust you. You've managed to develop what is essentially a whole new game and glue me to my computer.

It might have to do with experience as well.. new Piratez players fire a few times at the armored guy and think it doesn't work, so decide to use melee mostly (and black powder bombs, man those are awesome!). I am actually slowly increasing my ratio of gals with guns (up to 8 dedicated gunners now, everyone else also has some form of side arm) so it might not be too far from balanced.

The problem is those low damage guns (but I'll have to revisit some shotguns too for the solid slug ammo) and also the logistics of ammo. I've just started to use the Confederate Eagles I have now in late April because before I had no source of ammo for them. Same with the Black March SMG (can't remember how I got that ammo actually...). The guns that would be good to use are the ones which are hard to supply so they end up not used.

I expect there's a part of knowing the tech tree as well.. to know how to get the right stuff. I still can't get more boarding guns (haven't had time to research it) or hand cannons.

[ivandogovich]

It might have to do with experience as well.. new Piratez players fire a few times at the armored guy and think it doesn't work..... <snip>

That is basically my situation.  If you nerf the melee (which I know works), then make flint locks and muskets able to deal with personal armor.  Like Arthanor said, the personal armor guys are the hardest thing to deal with in early game.  Un-armored you want to knock out, and power armor, you may just want to run from.  But personal armor...  if you can just neutralize these guys, the other targets are juicy.  So make something for early game that can handle them and you can move the early game away from melee and grenades if that is your desire.

One final comment.  I really thought that this was the intent of PirateZ.  To cause the classic Xcom player to go through a change of mentality, where all their previous tactics no longer worked, and they had to learn how to use melee ( which most Xcom players normally avoid).  I thought it was in keeping with the Pirate theme to have the melee be a critical aspect to the game.  I now understand that this wasn't your intent, and instead you are trying to get a more balanced game.

[Dioxine]

Critical, yes. OP, no

[Bloax]

I think the most important thing here would be implementing something that was available and good even in Doom:
Pain sounds.

So that even if the enemy doesn't die - which they usually do after 1-3 shots in vanilla XCOM - you'll know that they're taking damage.
Which would serve to not demotivate you from keeping up the hailstorm of firearms, since sooner or later they are bound to fall.

Especially fearsome critters could also have no pain sound just to make them scarier.

[Dioxine]

Simple and great solution, I love it. One can only hope Yankes will find time to implement that Of course I thought that doing simple math (researching personal armoy guy gives you the stats of his armor) would suffice, but this solution both adds immersion and is a valuable tactical information, not only an encouragement. Alternatively there could be some blood splatters or something

[pilot00]

Fair points, guys. I will certainly not impose these ideas upon people without serious prior testing. Maybe it's just my playstyle: I know that personal-armored guys can be brought down with continuous barage of Str 30+ firearms, and using a grenade is basically an easy way out. I usually keep 60% ranged, 40% melee+ranged squad; true I don't want to force this playstyle upon people, but guns seem to be under-appreciated. Like I said, I will test this new melee formula out and see how really it does hamper the melee combat; I think the debuff will be rather slight. Plus there will be new advantages and ways to handle the enemy.

Actually no guns are not underappreciated. There comes a time when you desperately need ranged weaponry after a while.

For me my to go options (preference) were these:

Spoiler:

My to go ranged weapons: 6 Blunderbuss with HE, 10 Military shotguns with Heat ammo, 2 Sniper rifles of the best I could build (right now home made plasma rifles) one gal with a lascannon in loader suit, one gal with a tornado in loader suit and a one gal with a vulcan in loader suit. All have rum, grenades tech blades electro fists or maces. Before I ended up in here I was using mainly scavenged gauss rifles and heat heavy cannons and an assortment of melee with the indispencable (till the mace came around) hammers. 

Ranged is not useless or doesnt fall behind, its just that the game forces you to use melee most because the gals need a ton of missions before their stats reach a point where they can do work with ranged weapons. Plus there is an overabundance of armor and most early weapons are not gonna pierce through. The problem that you cant replicate stuff also is a big factor. By the time you get to build lazer clips for example, the specialised ammo are doing a better job than lazer weapons.

TLDR: If anything is to be rework, IMHO is the approach the stats on the game increase (And i think extended can do that right?) not the approach to melee/ranged. This is good IMHO. In fact I believe certain....later stage ranged weapons could use a boost to damage (I look at you

Spoiler:

gauss assaults

)

That is basically my situation.  If you nerf the melee (which I know works), then make flint locks and muskets able to deal with personal armor.

They already do, you are basically a breath away of making them do yourself

[Dioxine]

You will have the opprotunity to test the new melee system by yourselves once it is released and decide if it sucks or not. Hope it won't, certainly the main point - damage - isn't going to be nerfed that much (if at all - in some cases it will even increase for Swabbie-level soldiers), except high-end damage dealt by Str 100 killing machines.

One thing I've found out when exploring today - it will be finally possible to make gas grenades! (works like smoke, but deals damage like acid. Or drains morale - halucinogenic gas! Or... possibilities are a legion). The Problem: there won't be no way to distinguish what kind of gas is dispersed where by visuals. Sounds like fun, and a memory-training exercise

[pilot00]

To be honest as I said, I am more concearned about the stamina requirements to use melee, rather than any damage nerfs. But thats a concearn only, without seeing the impact there can be no accurate opinion on the matter.

[Arthanor]

I very much trust that Dioxine will deliver a fun experience with the next level of Piratez.

However, the crux of Ivan and my worry is much earlier stage of the game than this:

Actually no guns are not underappreciated. There comes a time when you desperately need ranged weaponry after a while.

For me my to go options (preference) were these:

Spoiler:

My to go ranged weapons: 6 Blunderbuss with HE, 10 Military shotguns with Heat ammo, 2 Sniper rifles of the best I could build (right now home made plasma rifles) one gal with a lascannon in loader suit, one gal with a tornado in loader suit and a one gal with a vulcan in loader suit. All have rum, grenades tech blades electro fists or maces. Before I ended up in here I was using mainly scavenged gauss rifles and heat heavy cannons and an assortment of melee with the indispencable (till the mace came around) hammers. 

Flintlocks and starting rifles are just not worth spending the TUs shooting at a security guard. I researched the guy and looked at my guns: 20-30 average damage -> 0-40 (useless unless you get him in the back, maybe?) to 0-60 (1/6 chance to do 1-10 damage that's a lot of shots when factoring starting gals' lacking firing accuracy). And the guns with 30 damage are the rare ones. One gun that is good and easy to get (I strongly suggest you use 'em Ivan) are flamethrowers. Because they can deal with armour and the multiple hits are incredible to train accuracy. Heavy flamers are even better! (I use two!)

As soon as you get alternative ammo (I just got acid), LACC, heavy cannons, machine guns, or even sniper rifles, you are starting to get something useable. The gun problem is not with the mid game onwards, but before that, which is what is featured in Ivan's LP and most of what I experienced so far. The only solution is to run up with an axe or hammer and deal with the problem! There is just no viable alternative except explosives (bombs included).

Maybe in Piratez Extended, guns can gain a varying amount of damage based on firing accuracy to represent targeting weak spots? Then there would be a point to giving a 60+ accuracy a sniper rifle: She could shoot that personal armoured guy in his unarmoured face! And that might well be all that's needed to make starting guns get the little extra bit of damage to be worth it. Currently, a starting gal with 55+ accuracy (above average starting stats) is unimpressive, but with 75+ melee (above average starting melee), you get an axe, maybe smoke ops gear or a tac vest and you're in business!

[pilot00]

I very much trust that Dioxine will deliver a fun experience with the next level of Piratez.

However, the crux of Ivan and my worry is much earlier stage of the game than this:

Flintlocks and starting rifles are just not worth spending the TUs shooting at a security guard. I researched the guy and looked at my guns: 20-30 average damage -> 0-40 (useless unless you get him in the back, maybe?) to 0-60 (1/6 chance to do 1-10 damage that's a lot of shots when factoring starting gals' lacking firing accuracy). And the guns with 30 damage are the rare ones. One gun that is good and easy to get (I strongly suggest you use 'em Ivan) are flamethrowers. Because they can deal with armour and the multiple hits are incredible to train accuracy. Heavy flamers are even better! (I use two!)

As soon as you get alternative ammo (I just got acid), LACC, heavy cannons, machine guns, or even sniper rifles**, you are starting to get something useable. The gun problem is not with the mid game onwards, but before that, which is what is featured in Ivan's LP and most of what I experienced so far. The only solution is to run up with an axe or hammer and deal with the problem! There is just no viable alternative except explosives (bombs included).

Maybe in Piratez Extended, guns can gain a varying amount of damage based on firing accuracy to represent targeting weak spots? Then there would be a point to giving a 60+ accuracy a sniper rifle: She could shoot that personal armoured guy in his unarmoured face! And that might well be all that's needed to make starting guns get the little extra bit of damage to be worth it. Currently, a starting gal with 55+ accuracy (above average starting stats) is unimpressive, but with 75+ melee (above average starting melee), you get an axe, maybe smoke ops gear or a tac vest and you're in business!

Depends on what you did with your research priorities. I did research bullets, acids and cooking by the book as almost my first things, so I had no real problems. It might not be x-com but its pretty similar. If you lag your researchoutput by researching things that are not immediately usefull* you will get outgunned. And that means upgrading your current arsenal. And the security guys are a problem as long as you dont have explosives or armor. Once you get HE shells on the blunderbuss the LACC and  the custom sniper rifle your pretty much set. Your only threat from then on are the mercenaries and everything up. What you speak IMHO is a "probelm" of following an alternate research path than didnt unlock you usable munitions fast. Shotguns come by the dozen. Same for rifles. Same for pistols.Sniper Rifles and blunderbusses you can manufacture. If you get strong galls, you can tot around boarding guns as well which punch through. Comparing IVans game and my experience for example, I was already totting anti armor munitions comparing the dates and had metal armor. OFC RNG makes its magics, but still he dalayed (because OFC he didnt knew) what I consider critical reasearch. There are a ton of unlockable munitions once those are researched. Lots of solutions for the early game as long as you make them a priority in research. Your only problem be accuracy. Even a basic assault rifle with plasta steel munitions can take down a sec guy with 3-4 shots and a snipper with 2 usually.

*I was forced to abadnon for example my first run because I made the mistake of rushing up tech and wasted resources to build up aircraft guns and interceptors, and as a result not only I understood that the game doesnt want you to have reasonable chances of interception untill you are pretty far into it, but actually researching the damn documentation, the sailors and the engineers is something that should be done as fast as possible (except if you want to ask here that is) and use that knowledge to attack only landed craft. This might seem a bit out of the discussion but let me ask you this: Why would you assault a landed heavy gunship for example (assuming you know what crews them and the profits)?

**In all honesty, I used the LACC and the rest of these types of gun (excluding the heavy cannon and sniper rifle OFC) only with the customised munitions. The standard you get with looting the piece are not going to help you with the sec guys any more than a standard rifle will.

In the end, I consider these kinds of discussions to be usefull because we can portay our different play styles and multiple solutions to a problem. What works for me though, might not work for you and vice versa.

[ivandogovich]

Somehow I hope that the game is as forgiving as it is brutal.

Spoiler:

Feels a bit more like a "Let's Fail PirateZ with Ivan"

[pilot00]

Somehow I hope that the game is as forgiving as it is brutal.

Spoiler:

Feels a bit more like a "Let's Fail PirateZ with Ivan"

Spoiler:

M8 you started a run on a game (because it might be similar but it aint the same) you had only the knowledge of X-Com. You are doing fine trust me. A little tweek here and there a bit more cautious play and you are set. You dont need to deal with everything in the game. Pick your battles. I had to play three test runs with save scummin up to a certain point (havent finished) just to get the hang of it

[Dioxine]

Somehow I hope that the game is as forgiving as it is brutal.

Oh don't be so shy, you have survived so far, expanded the operation, got some veterans trained, and ended all months with a good score. It's not that you're failing, it's that in Piratez, you have to redefine what you constitute as a success and what is a fail. You don't need "A" grade. You need "Not-Dead" grade. It's still XCom, so it is forgiving (especially since the enemy force escalation is much less pronounced than in vanilla XCom - eg. enemy weapon loadouts stay the same no matter how long you play), forgiving with ocassional bouts of brutal rage, that is You don't have to worry about killed Swabbies so much (they're cheap), and... In general, you have to let go of unrealistic expectations that the original has taught you (an implacable, if bloody march to victory with millions of $$$ and tech raining from the sky, and 8 bases by May) and cherish your modest successes!

Nobody said it's gonna be fluffy kittens and rainbows, and Piratez WILL deal you painful blows from time to time, just accept it and move on. Especially since your mindset seems to be just perfect - optimistic, cautious, smart. But sometimes you also need to indulge in pure aggression. I'm usually putting a pretty low priority on live capture, I'm getting less money and tech that way, but that allows me to keep more soldiers alive. Live capture is what I am doing in the final stage of the mission, first 2-3 turns is just "kill everything in sight" mode (unless there is a very good opportunity to catch a very juicy target, that is). That way I am able to often break the enemy morale by turn 3 and once that happens, it's just mopping up, with an occassional run-in with a suicide bomber.

As for the tech tree, I'm trying to make every path viable - but once you select a single path, keep on it. Ivan prioritized melee so he's right to go melee, with Metal Armor finally in the fold and the Tech Blade quite possibly coming soon, he'd be able to take on most normal enemies in melee. So it's only natural he tends towards heavy-melee loadouts. Rushing munitions is another path that allows you to be pretty set up for firefights by early March (delays oftentimes due to the lack of proper loot to research). Both approaches need some support too, naturally - explosives and armor. Tac Suit will protect you from small grenades and small firearms, and the Metal Armor will protect you from small lasers. Choose wisely

Sure there will be Stamina cost now (realistically, melee combat SHOULD be tiring just as running is), but you will also get more melee-supporting tech and alternate combat techniques (attacks against enemy Morale, for example - you will still have to make the kill with a blade, but there will be new ways to make that more safely - so the general direction is less wild swinging, more carefully executed plans when a few melee strikes will be enough). Bows will be back with vengeance too (not as OP as they were in the old days, but once again quite powerful on hi-stat soldiers).

[Arthanor]

Well,  I don't do test runs to learn the tech tree. I like discovering things as I play through. In general, armor is my main priority as that keeps the gals alive and that means they improve and become killing machines. Then other stuff, with guns pretty high in the priorities (but now craft weapons too..). My game has been "make the gals survive and get to the enemy, they'll run 'em through with a blade once they get there". They can tank rather well.

I am now in June with a crew of monster gals (haven't lost one yet..!? Though many spent a long time in the infirmary) and starting to get decent guns.

Of course if you know the tree, the game is entirely different and you can have set priorities knowing what unlocks what, but then the game becomes "rush the tech tree and bypass lasers to get plasma" vanilla, which gets boring. The main reason I picked Piratez is because I had no idea what it's tree was and it was the most different game out there.

My experience has been similar to Ivan's although my lab is working at full capacity funded by a wave of freighters, so I've been lucky with that. I would say in the early game (when you have what you start with) melee is better than guns which is neat as it makes you feel like the primitive gang of mutants you are. As soon as you progress a bit (the timing of which will vary depending on how well you know the tech tree and what your priorities are) guns are fine. I think this is quite successful as you can go armor heavy, guns first or melee/explosives heavy (me/pilot/Ivan) and still make it through.

I guess I was afraid that the change to melee was to make a firing squad of muskets the best solution to security guards ;P that would be a harsh early game.

[Dioxine]

I guess I was afraid that the change to melee was to make a firing squad of muskets the best solution to security guards ;P that would be a harsh early game.

No no no, most certainly not Although I am planning an early Super-Musket tech that will maybe add some usefulness to the never-produced Flintlock Balls, this would be just a fun side tech (and a half decent gun that can be grabbed with 2-3 researches).