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Author Topic: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N11 22-Mar-2025  (Read 4778210 times)

Offline shinr

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N11 22-Mar-2025
« Reply #9330 on: March 23, 2025, 07:00:55 pm »
Thank god that I didn't start a new run last week.

Offline kelltozet

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N11 22-Mar-2025
« Reply #9331 on: March 24, 2025, 11:47:34 am »
v.N11
- Enemy Spotters won't spot you if they're neutralized in a single hit

What it is even mean? When your unit deal damage to anything it's spotted for all enemy snipers. Spotter or not it doesn't even matter.

Offline Juku121

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N11 22-Mar-2025
« Reply #9332 on: March 24, 2025, 12:27:07 pm »
It's the new 'extendedSpotOnHitForSniping' option.

Damage doesn't let other snipers know the shooter's location if the fellow getting hit wasn't a spotter, only the one that got hit gets to do spotting. The shooter does get 'seen', but not 'sniper seen'.

Offline kelltozet

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N11 22-Mar-2025
« Reply #9333 on: March 24, 2025, 01:54:34 pm »
The shooter does get 'seen', but not 'sniper seen'.

I swear, the way stealth works is the most obscure mechanic I can remember from all my years of gaming experience.

I found out that the maximum standard visibility is 40 cells during the day, after a couple hundred hours in the game.

I still don't fully understand how stealth works in close combat. Why is it that when I hit with a shock baton, the indicators remain blue on the stealth suit. And when I kill an enemy, they turn red.

Does the silent weapon category have any effect on stealth?

And now I learn that "seen" and "sniper seen" is two different concepts. What's the difference between them?

Please, can we have a full explanation of how stealth works to the camouflage technology description.

Offline Juku121

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N11 22-Mar-2025
« Reply #9334 on: March 24, 2025, 04:44:59 pm »
I haven't touched Piratez in a long while, so I don't know what scripts might be attached to stealth suits, silent weapons or the like.

But generally, 'stun' damage doesn't get you even 'seen', so feel free to Stun Bomb the enemy. Yet kills can spot you even several turns later, if your victim bleeds out somewhere.

'Seen' is the OG vision marker, and more or less lets the AI maneuver towards you, do mind fuckery and shoot within LoS. It is shared across the whole enemy team and persists for a while depending on the 'intelligence' stat of an individual enemy (well, technically it's a flag on the detected unit, but that's the idea).

'Spotted' is the sniper-spotter flag that comes exclusively from spotters (whether via direct vision or getting shot) and lets only snipers use squadsight on the spottee.

Offline kelltozet

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N11 22-Mar-2025
« Reply #9335 on: March 25, 2025, 12:38:58 am »
I did some tests in dev mode. I assume that the dev mod does not affect the enemy's AI.
All the turrets on the map are snipers and spotters. Ninja gal is also a sniper and a spotter. I ran all the tests several times.

But generally, 'stun' damage doesn't get you even 'seen', so feel free to Stun Bomb the enemy.

Any range damage to the spotter makes the attacking unit a target for snipers, if spotter wasn't neutralized in a single hit. Lethality or damage type doesn't matter.
So far, everything is working as described in the game. But spotting indication turn red on any range damage.

Any melee damage to the spotter does not trigger snipers, but the indicators behave strangely. Killing will switch the indicators to red mode. A melee knockout will leave the indicators in blue mode.
Spears and other types of weapons with an attack radius of 1 square or more are considered ranged weapons.

It's quite strange that bursts of shots count as one hit. It turns out that in order to remain invisible, it is better to use, for example, a minigun or multi-shot rocket launcher. While a pistol with a silencer is clearly not the best choice.

Online Delian

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N11 22-Mar-2025
« Reply #9336 on: March 25, 2025, 01:50:51 am »
Huh. Melee killing a spotter shouldn't make you spotted. That sounds like a bug.

Offline shinr

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N11 22-Mar-2025
« Reply #9337 on: March 25, 2025, 08:59:10 am »
Spears and other types of weapons with an attack radius of 1 square or more are considered ranged weapons.

That is because they ARE, under the hood, Ranged weapons square-pegged into Melee ones.

This is most obvious when you use something unwieldy like a Hammer in close combat, get CQC-ed, and get deflected to a specific angle so that you can, in a blink it and miss it moment, see the "projectile" that came out of the Hammer flying away at the speed of light.

It's quite strange that bursts of shots count as one hit. It turns out that in order to remain invisible, it is better to use, for example, a minigun or multi-shot rocket launcher. While a pistol with a silencer is clearly not the best choice.

I'm under the impression that the Infiltration and Stealthy tags some weapons have are there for Deployment Restrictions purposes, i.e. can't sneak heavy ordinance and armor into cities and such, and have no other effect on Battlescape.

As for burst of shots as one hit, this level of abstraction I have no problem with (and which I visualize as "Enemy can only spot if they are able to transition from the GETTING SHOT AT PHASE to the REACTING PHASE)

Without that, auto-weapons would be penalized even if the enemy was killed in one burst (and logically the majority of autofire bursts would take between half-a-second to two seconds, so not enough time for spotting) and this allows shotgun blasts to count as one hit (otherwise: Oh no, I got killed by a shotgun, but the first pellet that hit me a nanosecond before the fatals ones was not fatal, so I spot the killer).

Not that there are no edge-cases that do not neatly fit, though.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2025, 09:01:45 am by shinr »

Offline kelltozet

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N11 22-Mar-2025
« Reply #9338 on: March 25, 2025, 09:25:57 am »
Huh. Melee killing a spotter shouldn't make you spotted. That sounds like a bug.

Only indicators on stealth suits behave strange. Actual spot doesn't happen.

Offline kelltozet

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N11 22-Mar-2025
« Reply #9339 on: March 25, 2025, 10:07:01 am »
That is because they ARE, under the hood, Ranged weapons square-pegged into Melee ones.

And it's ok. But I think this better to be explained in game tips.

PINUP 122
The ability to fire at unseen units is not unique to us. Properly trained enemies can do that as well. If such an enemy spots one of our units, she remains spotted for some time and enemy snipers might attack her. Note that hitting a spotter automatically makes you spotted, even if the hit resulted in outright kill. The only exceptions are melee kills.

Do you think this is good tip?

Offline Yankes

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N11 22-Mar-2025
« Reply #9340 on: March 25, 2025, 11:20:13 am »
It turns out that in order to remain invisible, it is better to use, for example, a minigun or multi-shot rocket launcher. While a pistol with a silencer is clearly not the best choice.
I take this personally :D
I think "silencer" should keep you invisible or at least reduce chance to be spotted.
I will look on code and see if there is way to link both mechanics. And even make some "heavy" weapons expose you too easier.

Offline ontherun

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N11 22-Mar-2025
« Reply #9341 on: March 25, 2025, 11:41:54 am »
v.N11
[...]
- Cannons & Cannoballs easier to make, the latter buyable now
[...]

A nameless update, the first one i remember ever(?) but might why (piratin) cannons cannot be bought too? It is ancient technology so i don't see any downside, maybe a minor patch will follow to allow? Also i think ol' rifle should gain the feature of being bayonnetable, as hoped for here  :P
« Last Edit: March 25, 2025, 02:23:59 pm by ontherun »

Offline Amoebka

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N11 22-Mar-2025
« Reply #9342 on: March 25, 2025, 12:00:21 pm »
I don't really agree with "stealthiness" stat of the weapon affecting spotting. If a guy got dropped by a minigun volley in the middle of the junlge, with no one else to see it, and before he could radio anything, why shouldn't it be considered stealthy?

If a guy got shot by a spy pistol, but lived and yelled at nearby allies that he got shot, why should that be considered stealthy?

IMO it's entirely correct for the "died instantly or not" to be the deciding factor.

Offline kelltozet

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N11 22-Mar-2025
« Reply #9343 on: March 25, 2025, 12:40:44 pm »
a guy got dropped by a minigun volley in the middle of the junlge, with no one else to see it

Silencers not only make the sound of the shot quieter, but also remove the muzzle flash.

The way I see it, regular weapons should immediately spot an invisible unit for snipers, regardless of the damage done. The unit remains hidden if it fires a weapon with a silencer, a crossbow, a bow, a pistol with darts, and so on.

But such a change is not a five-minute fix. It will take a long time to think about how to change the balance.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N11 22-Mar-2025
« Reply #9344 on: March 25, 2025, 12:50:26 pm »
I think "silencer" should keep you invisible or at least reduce chance to be spotted.
I will look on code and see if there is way to link both mechanics. And even make some "heavy" weapons expose you too easier.

You mean some kind of modifier to the sniper reaction chance? Or to the spotter feature to work in the first place?

Hmm... HMMM... 8)

Silencers not only make the sound of the shot quieter, but also remove the muzzle flash.

UNIMOD for UFO: Extraterrestrials had real hearing mechanics. I loved it, and since this game is a direct X-Com clone, I still dream of having it in OXCE.