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Author Topic: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - L5A2 01-Nov-2020 New Energy v2  (Read 1564816 times)

Offline legionof1

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2895 on: July 26, 2016, 02:18:14 am »
AI is honestly really difficult to implement fairly in any game that is a static PvE type(almost all video games are). A developer will never be able to account for every eventually the players generate unless they harshly constrain the player like in a arcade shooter. If the player has any freeform ability something will eventually give, be it unfair to the player or the other way around.

Offline Star_Treasure

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2896 on: July 26, 2016, 02:30:28 am »
. Even AAA developers can have problems with AI.

From what I heard, AAA developers make AI dumb on purpose these days because Beta testers complain when the AI outsmarts them using standard infantry tactics. The player's stated desire for "Better AI" is overshadowed by the players desire to not be constantly outflanked by numerically superior forces.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2897 on: July 26, 2016, 02:32:44 am »
AI is honestly really difficult to implement fairly in any game that is a static PvE type(almost all video games are). A developer will never be able to account for every eventually the players generate unless they harshly constrain the player like in a arcade shooter. If the player has any freeform ability something will eventually give, be it unfair to the player or the other way around.

A truly sophisticated AI would be difficult yes, but surely we can do better than the AI that exists without an excessive amount of effort. One that aggressively uses grenades and intelligently prioritizes and attacks lower armour targets would both be significant improvements.


@ Star_Treasure: Given the choice between bullshit VooDoo that ignores LoS and a better AI, I will choose the better AI every single time (unless we're talking human level intelligence where their SOP is smoke sniping/indirect bombardment, and opening up the dropship to toss a grenade inside turn 1 before you can really do anything about it).
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 02:36:21 am by Surrealistik »

Offline Starving Poet

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2898 on: July 26, 2016, 04:45:45 am »
From what I heard, AAA developers make AI dumb on purpose these days because Beta testers complain when the AI outsmarts them using standard infantry tactics. The player's stated desire for "Better AI" is overshadowed by the players desire to not be constantly outflanked by numerically superior forces.

Early in Xenonaughts development, the AI was pretty much able to determine a couple places where your soldiers could be based on knowing where they weren't.  No cheating, no secret knowledge.  They knew where you landed and were you couldn't be.  They would blindly throw grenades into the few places where you could be with damn unerring success.  The game was practically impossible to breach a UFO, let alone get to it even on the easiest difficulties.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2899 on: July 26, 2016, 05:42:19 am »
Early in Xenonaughts development, the AI was pretty much able to determine a couple places where your soldiers could be based on knowing where they weren't.  No cheating, no secret knowledge.  They knew where you landed and were you couldn't be.  They would blindly throw grenades into the few places where you could be with damn unerring success.  The game was practically impossible to breach a UFO, let alone get to it even on the easiest difficulties.

Are you sure about that? Wasn't it confirmed that the Xenonauts AI cheats and always knows where you are?

Offline Meridian

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2900 on: July 26, 2016, 06:35:20 am »
@ Meridian: The outcome is not reasonably determined by the player's actions. This applies squarely to the Psi mechanic; your recourse against it is very limited until fairly late, and even then Star Gods en masse are annoying to deal with purely because of Psi abuse; not because of the AI's quality or anything that could be construed as something you materially influence or that respects your decisions.

I also had academy base defense with psi weak rookies. I had no problems. Feel free to watch it on YT. The outcome was reasonably determined by my actions. I even captured the Provost alive at the end...

Also, if you are a "beginner" the reasonable outcome is a defeat. Everything is as it should be.

Btw. I really like Yankes' post... feel free to take inspiration from that and rebalance psi as you like. Maybe others will like it too.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 06:40:12 am by Meridian »

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2901 on: July 26, 2016, 07:15:26 am »
I also had academy base defense with psi weak rookies. I had no problems. Feel free to watch it on YT. The outcome was reasonably determined by my actions. I even captured the Provost alive at the end...

Also, if you are a "beginner" the reasonable outcome is a defeat. Everything is as it should be.

Btw. I really like Yankes' post... feel free to take inspiration from that and rebalance psi as you like. Maybe others will like it too.

Link?

Also there were definitely moments where if I had enough bad RNG which I could do nothing about (chain panics or mind control for example) I could have lost despite clearly having the raw skill needed to win; fake difficulty.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 07:18:24 am by Surrealistik »

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2902 on: July 26, 2016, 07:34:08 am »
@ Surrealistik: Here ya go, just a few posts earlier in this thread.

This is not fix but creating new game, at least need similar work amount. Would be better to suggest something that could be implemented in reasonable time.

LOS is not only way to nerf PSI, PSI can loos more power per tile, PSI can be affected by current morale (no MC on 100% morale), Instead of MC, top alien attack can be direct damage (or stun) to unit, PSI consume energy that prevent spamming it by aliens. If this is not enough is always possible to add new mechanic that will allow better balancing PSI.
I could be Warboy or SupSuper too, but they are probably fine with current AI because its similar to original.

I could tweak AI or alter it but it will be still brain dead as today. Even AAA developers can have problems with AI.
I don't except that I will do something better than them, therefore I prefer spend my time on other things.

btw to much smart AI could be even more pain-in-but, what if aliens always sit in UFO and camp all entrances? Or throw proxy on hallways? Always first attack base facilities with blaster bombs even if there none in it, because this is better long time strategy, ignore PSI-rods soldiers and only attack valuable units :>

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2903 on: July 26, 2016, 07:35:03 am »
@ Surrealistik: Here ya go, just a few posts earlier in this thread.

No, I mean his YT video where he defended a base with rookies.

Offline Foxhound634

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2904 on: July 26, 2016, 02:51:33 pm »
aliens knowing your exact location via the 'Intelligence' stat long after they've lost LoS

This is also a reason why using stealth in x-piratez is unreliable. Has it been fixed though?

Also, can anyone elaborate on the intelligence stat, this is the first time i've heard of it

Offline Starving Poet

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2905 on: July 26, 2016, 03:29:26 pm »
Are you sure about that? Wasn't it confirmed that the Xenonauts AI cheats and always knows where you are?

It doesn't cheat, but it does change algorithms depending on proximity.   An alien who could be passively sitting in a building for 20 turns will become aggressive as you near them and they'll come out looking for you; but don't know where you are... exactly.  Okay, it's a bit cheaty; but it's not Sectopod from xcom 2012 cheaty.

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2906 on: July 26, 2016, 03:43:16 pm »
Also, can anyone elaborate on the intelligence stat, this is the first time i've heard of it

The intelligence stat indicates how long an enemy "remembers" your unit.  Imagine that they spot your unit, then over their squad net post a tracking dot on the battlemap that follows your unit.  For enemies with lower intelligence, the dot drops off the map sooner, while for those with higher intelligence it remains longer.

Fortunately the enemy won't target the dot with direct fire unless they can get a visual ID or direct line of sight. I feel like I've been tossed a few grenades in smoke to clusters of troops even though the thrower didn't have direct LOS, but I can't be sure.  The only attack that I know of that consistently occurs with no LOS is PSI/voodoo. 

You can find the Intelligence stats for enemies on their individual unit pages you can browse on the wiki from here:
https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Major_Factions_(Piratez)

Just a quick glance shows me that they vary at least from 3 - 10.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2907 on: July 26, 2016, 07:08:24 pm »

@ Meridian: The outcome is not reasonably determined by the player's actions. This applies squarely to the Psi mechanic; your recourse against it is very limited until fairly late, and even then Star Gods en masse are annoying to deal with purely because of Psi abuse; not because of the AI's quality or anything that could be construed as something you materially influence or that respects your decisions.

This is pure semantics, because the key word is 'reasonably'. Unless the game is chess, you can always argue that some outcome is not determined by player's actions, hence the game has fake difficulty. IMO this doesn't apply here, since it'd mean 'psi will fuck you up no matter what you do'. I've already laid down the ways to minimize the threat and I will not repeat myself.

Also, 'fix the AI'. Hahahahaha. Take it or leave it. I'm in a project that has plans to develop an advanced AI algorithm. Sure it could be implemented in Piratez or any other game. It would cost around $500k - send a check my way and you will (probably) have an AI that doesn't only look, but does indeed live up to your wild expectations.


Offline Surrealistik

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2908 on: July 26, 2016, 07:43:18 pm »
This is pure semantics, because the key word is 'reasonably'. Unless the game is chess, you can always argue that some outcome is not determined by player's actions, hence the game has fake difficulty. IMO this doesn't apply here, since it'd mean 'psi will fuck you up no matter what you do'. I've already laid down the ways to minimize the threat and I will not repeat myself.

Psi's specific outcomes can often not be reasonably determined by your actions; enough so that yes, I feel it qualifies as fake difficulty. The only saving grace is that you can often overcome its consequences with enough bodies and conservative play. I've stated the flaws with all of your proposed solutions/countermeasures.

Quote
Also, 'fix the AI'. Hahahahaha. Take it or leave it. I'm in a project that has plans to develop an advanced AI algorithm. Sure it could be implemented in Piratez or any other game. It would cost around $500k - send a check my way and you will (probably) have an AI that doesn't only look, but does indeed live up to your wild expectations.

You'll find that my expectations are actually pretty modest here; like I said, two major things which should be relatively simple to implement would be more aggressive grenade use (no more effortless robocopping my way through countless missions), and prioritizing soft targets.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 07:53:29 pm by Surrealistik »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2909 on: July 26, 2016, 08:11:48 pm »
Psi's specific outcomes can often not be reasonably determined by your actions; enough so that yes, I feel it qualifies as fake difficulty. The only saving grace is that you can often overcome its consequences with enough bodies and conservative play. I've stated the flaws with all of your proposed solutions/countermeasures.

Semantics again. What else is fielding enough bodies, keeping proper formation and minimizing weak links, than player actions? Or maybe I don't understand - what exact type of 'player actions' do you have in mind? Also yes, no flawless solutions - what's so bad about it? Is vanilla's psi immunity paradigm (fielding no soldiers with Psi Str <80) really that much fun?

Robocopping is unavoidable with multiple tech levels. You cannot robocop your way through enemies on your level or higher, and that's enough. OTOH making enemies to prioritize soft targets and prioritize grenades (which they love to use anyway) would be too vicious IMO. It would also make enemies' actions too predictable. You seem want a pitched, merciless knife fight, not a chaotic manager/ battlefield / exploration simulation. Wrong type of game.