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Author Topic: Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N7 16-Dec-2023 Flying Tiger, Hidden Tentacle  (Read 3684779 times)

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2910 on: July 26, 2016, 08:42:00 pm »
You'll find that my expectations are actually pretty modest here; like I said, two major things which should be relatively simple to implement would be more aggressive grenade use (no more effortless robocopping my way through countless missions), and prioritizing soft targets.

Just for clarification:  These requests are beyond the modder's scope.  Dioxine can only work within the engine he has been given with OpenXcom Extended (+).  This is not far modified from vanilla OpenXcom's AI, so it has much of the original's limitations.  Dioxine has done an amazing amount of sculpting within these limitations by modifying unit stats, weapon effects, etc. but he still has no control over How the AI behaves.  Changing the AI requires programming know-how in C+.   The development team's stance for the most part, is to make it faithful to the original game.  Radically changing or even making significant changes to the AI is probably not in their plans, but feel free to ask them (Warboy, SupSuper, etc).

Offline Star_Treasure

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2911 on: July 26, 2016, 10:16:32 pm »
There is nothing wrong with robocoping low level enemies, especially if you still get your ass handed to you when you try to raid a base.
One thing I really like about Pirazez is that unlike regular Xcom or X-com, the pacing is largely determined by the player.  It's fun to blow of steam and raid churches with whips. It's also fun to micromanage base building. (I have a whole base dedicated to X-grog manufacture, shit is literally cash) If you want an extra challenge, you can go looking for a base to raid. Suddenly the classic difficulty returns.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2912 on: July 27, 2016, 11:59:51 am »
Semantics again. What else is fielding enough bodies, keeping proper formation and minimizing weak links, than player actions? Or maybe I don't understand - what exact type of 'player actions' do you have in mind? Also yes, no flawless solutions - what's so bad about it? Is vanilla's psi immunity paradigm (fielding no soldiers with Psi Str <80) really that much fun?

You can help control the overall outcomes with the things you've mentioned, but there is no good countermeasure to psi; again the bottomline is that it's a frustrating exercise in pure RNG which has unmitigatable consequences and truly reliable answers no matter how you prepare, especially when the Ethereals show up. And yes, thwarting a bullshit mechanic predicated on pure RNG makes the game much more fun. I don't at all enjoy losing valued soldiers to what is fundamentally random chance, just as I don't like losing countries to what is effectively random chance (per my earlier post on X-Com's implementation of Infiltration being shit that we also clashed in), even if I win the overall war.

Quote
Robocopping is unavoidable with multiple tech levels. You cannot robocop your way through enemies on your level or higher, and that's enough. OTOH making enemies to prioritize soft targets and prioritize grenades (which they love to use anyway) would be too vicious IMO. It would also make enemies' actions too predictable. You seem want a pitched, merciless knife fight, not a chaotic manager/ battlefield / exploration simulation. Wrong type of game.

It's avoidable with grenades.

Chem/poison/frag, hell even HE grenades all go a long way in breaking most forms of robocop armour. Scale and Plate for example, the two best early-mid game armours, suddenly get menaced by guards armed with assault rifles who would otherwise be trivial.

Also it might be worth considering upgrading the weaponry of the guard personnel as the game progresses, and the aliens/factions increasingly recognize you as a threat (could even be indexed to player score); it makes sense for the civvies to be stuck with peashooters, but the armed guards would probably adapt and field better weapons. Granted there might be caps to this depending on the mission type; a trading post or watch tower will never have state of the art, expensive plasma weaponry that the Ethereals grant only to their most trusted human servants.

What I'm looking for is tactical combat that forces me to think, keeps me on my toes, punishes me for mistakes, and challenges me without resorting to cheating or RNG crutches. Outside of robocopping and Psi, so far so good.

Offline nrafield

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2913 on: July 27, 2016, 12:26:30 pm »
I think the AI's use of grenades is fine as it is - they always find a way to throw some at you if you make the mistake of clumping your gals together. To make them throw these even more often would likely be just evil and not very fun.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2914 on: July 27, 2016, 03:42:39 pm »
Also it might be worth considering upgrading the weaponry of the guard personnel as the game progresses, and the aliens/factions increasingly recognize you as a threat (could even be indexed to player score); it makes sense for the civvies to be stuck with peashooters, but the armed guards would probably adapt and field better weapons. Granted there might be caps to this depending on the mission type; a trading post or watch tower will never have state of the art, expensive plasma weaponry that the Ethereals grant only to their most trusted human servants.

This is a sensible proposal, however it does take a lot work to implement. Maybe at some time. Also, when will they switch to new weapons? Time switch is punishing; research switch is unfair; score switch is impossible atm. (and possibly also unfair, as the player will have an incentive to play worse and lower his score on purpose). In the greater scope of things, this will be affected in the future by more mid- and end- game sub-factions replacing the current ones as the game progresses.

Amounts of poison gas grenades have been bumped recently anyway. But low tier enemies cannot be given good grenades, because they're low tier. Like I said, making them throw more and always target softer targets would make the AI too predictable - which would make it easier to protect your 'champions' (aka 'valued soldiers') by sacrificing human shields.

Plate mail is, naturally, too good for the difficulty of getting it, but that's a current balance issue - it will be fixed as new elements are added into the mix. Eg. I'll add a gem requirement to it once there will be more sources of gems than just the Mansion.

As for your other problems - (sometimes) losing soldiers/countries to random chance, if you don't like it, you're playing the wrong game. No foolproof solutions to everything. If you don't like to lose so much (even if the loss is minor), play a game where losing is not an option. XCom teaches that avoiding losses in a war, or expecting everything will go 100% according to plan, is a silly fantasy. I don't intend to change that.

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2915 on: July 27, 2016, 05:02:12 pm »
No, I mean his YT video where he defended a base with rookies.

@ Surrealistik:
Hear is the link for the video where Meridian's base defense begins.
Let's play X-PirateZ [44] Mind Tricks

I believe it ends up extending through a couple more videos, but the playlist is in the link too.
Cheers, Ivan :D

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2916 on: July 27, 2016, 08:03:28 pm »
This is a sensible proposal, however it does take a lot work to implement. Maybe at some time. Also, when will they switch to new weapons? Time switch is punishing; research switch is unfair; score switch is impossible atm. (and possibly also unfair, as the player will have an incentive to play worse and lower his score on purpose). In the greater scope of things, this will be affected in the future by more mid- and end- game sub-factions replacing the current ones as the game progresses.

Amounts of poison gas grenades have been bumped recently anyway. But low tier enemies cannot be given good grenades, because they're low tier. Like I said, making them throw more and always target softer targets would make the AI too predictable - which would make it easier to protect your 'champions' (aka 'valued soldiers') by sacrificing human shields.

Plate mail is, naturally, too good for the difficulty of getting it, but that's a current balance issue - it will be fixed as new elements are added into the mix. Eg. I'll add a gem requirement to it once there will be more sources of gems than just the Mansion.

As for your other problems - (sometimes) losing soldiers/countries to random chance, if you don't like it, you're playing the wrong game. No foolproof solutions to everything. If you don't like to lose so much (even if the loss is minor), play a game where losing is not an option. XCom teaches that avoiding losses in a war, or expecting everything will go 100% according to plan, is a silly fantasy. I don't intend to change that.

Honestly I don't think plate is too easy to get; the rare earth is pretty damn rare unless there's something I can salvage it from which I haven't noticed (other than Raiders). As of July 2602 I have made 5 suits period having only lost 1 (unfortunate mishap with a berserking mininuke armed Osiron).

Second, I think a combination of time and score (as in total points accumulated, not your last monthly) would be the best triggers. That said, having the enemy's armaments rubber band with your demonstrated ability/threat is actually a pretty good idea. Are your gals a PITA? Arm up. Has the threat passed? Deescalate.

Third, you don't have to give low tier enemies good grenades; even the entry level grenades can do serious damage to armour, or at least menace it.

Fourth, any player who needs to use sacrificial rookies to save their better squaddies is a bad player. Between smoke grenades and indirect fire/smoke sniping, you should never have to do something so desperate, and if you do, it's a form of damage control, when all other options have been exhausted that will see you lose a soldier instead of have an injured (or unharmed depending on the armour) elite.

Finally, getting rid of unfair RNG is not about 'never losing', it's again about having the game's outcomes respect player actions/agency rather than largely ignore them while still providing a challenge. Plenty of RNG exists already with respect to shooting and the like; the difference is that you can readily compensate and adjust for bad luck here where the same is not true with regards to the likes of Psi/Infiltration.


@ivan: Thanks for that. I thought he was talking about a situation comparable to mine (Academy Cruiser vs 6 Rookies armed with Gauss Muskets) which was not the case. Still a respectable base defense though.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 08:07:00 pm by Surrealistik »

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2917 on: July 27, 2016, 08:12:01 pm »
Honestly I don't think plate is too easy to get; the rare earth is pretty damn rare unless there's something I can salvage it from which I haven't noticed (other than Raiders). As of July 2602 I have made 5 suits period having only lost 1 (unfortunate mishap with a berserking mininuke armed Osiron).

FYI: Rare Earth also comes from Cave Hunts, but it takes some dedicated work hours.


Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2918 on: July 27, 2016, 08:18:36 pm »
I think rare earth is actually quite accessible through cave hunting, definitely enough to produce as many sets of plate mail as you want. and if you meet Raiders, it's a bonus.

And I must say I actually like the idea of enemy equipment going both up AND down, according to the player's monthly results. It would have a number of advantages:
  • Curb shameless grind a little.
  • Give the player the means to control the situation, either by laying low until things calm down or riling up the enemy to ensure better loot in missions.
  • Make the world feel a bit more alive. Dynamic environment does that.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2919 on: July 27, 2016, 08:25:02 pm »
I think rare earth is actually quite accessible through cave hunting, definitely enough to produce as many sets of plate mail as you want. and if you meet Raiders, it's a bonus.

And I must say I actually like the idea of enemy equipment going both up AND down, according to the player's monthly results. It would have a number of advantages:
  • Curb shameless grind a little.
  • Give the player the means to control the situation, either by laying low until things calm down or riling up the enemy to ensure better loot in missions.
  • Make the world feel a bit more alive. Dynamic environment does that.

Ah, good to know.

I know what I'll be having my Runts do now, thanks guys.


And yes, those are my thoughts exactly; if you're grinding missions to this extent: https://i.imgur.com/h92Vmtv.png

The aliens should probably realize that better weapons are in order. By the way, this is exactly how it worked in X-Com Apocalypse: the aliens would upgrade their weapons in accordance with how well you were doing.

Conversely if they're kicking you around like some poor Fat Guy on a transport ship, then they probably should adjust weapons accordingly. Yeah, maybe it incentivizes being shitty at the game/depreciating your score a little, but you wouldn't know the target numbers, and a lower score usually correlates with lower resources that are its own punishment and generally isn't worth the lighter armament the factions will carry.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 08:27:13 pm by Surrealistik »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2920 on: July 27, 2016, 08:27:56 pm »
Finally, getting rid of unfair RNG is not about 'never losing', it's again about having the game's outcomes respect player actions/agency rather than largely ignore them while still providing a challenge. Plenty of RNG exists already with respect to shooting and the like; the difference is that you can readily compensate and adjust for bad luck here where the same is not true with regards to the likes of Psi/Infiltration.

I agree; except I don't consider Psi neither unfair nor unrespectful of player's actions. Perhaps it's wrong to think about psi like an 'attack'; psi works more like a contagion, and should be fought like one. I've played several campaigns in this and never had overt trouble with enemy psi-users (despite playing on the highest diff). But more to the point. Psi is less dangerous to fast assault setups (where reaction fire and grenades, especially suicide bombers, are most dangerous), but on the other hand, it's about the only counter AI has to defensive, LoS-abusing setups. Also, of countermeasures, high Bravery is another important thing; it won't help against MC (atm - maybe I should buff passive defence a bit, depending on Bravery?), but at least makes it very hard to panic your troops. However, heavy camping subjects you to an endless stream of MC attempts, some of which WILL be successful. Tight formations and powerful weapons, especially explosives, make these succesful attempts very dangerous. On the other hand, playing fast (and less safely) usually gives the enemy psionics no time to make any serious damage.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2921 on: July 27, 2016, 08:58:36 pm »
Reckless assaults will do way more damage than Psi ever will, so what you're saying is that it's a question of picking your poison: death by overextension or casualties by RNG.

Again, you keep mentioning tight formations and heavy weaponry as being liabilities, but the fact is that if you're up against Psi using enemies, heavy weaponry is essential to victory, while 80-90 TUs or more all but ensures that a gal is going to be able to reach and attack you if she moves in the right direction; I mean what are you supposed to do, keep each soldier a full screen apart?

Ultimately, when my leading cause of injury/casualty is a mechanic that can ignore every countermeasure I feel there is a problem.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2016, 09:01:38 pm by Surrealistik »

Offline Arthanor

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2922 on: July 27, 2016, 09:10:51 pm »
Plate mail is, naturally, too good for the difficulty of getting it, but that's a current balance issue - it will be fixed as new elements are added into the mix. Eg. I'll add a gem requirement to it once there will be more sources of gems than just the Mansion.

Hum.. I was going to comment on it coming pretty late since you need a cyclop, but that's not true anymore.. That certainly delayed plate armor, to the point where it was comparable to other armors available at the time. Of course, the new requirements makes a lot more sense, but gating it somehow might still be an answer. What about some kind of metallurgy as a requirement? Making steel strong enough to make armor without it being too heavy is not easy. Maybe something to do with breaking a guild engineer?

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2923 on: July 27, 2016, 09:15:31 pm »
Guild Engineer interrogation sounds like a reasonable gateway.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - 0.99 - 7 Jun - First Impressions
« Reply #2924 on: July 27, 2016, 09:23:25 pm »
Makes sense with the Engineer.

Back to psi: Yes, naturally heavy weapons and tight formations, as well as LoS abuse is the simplest way to win in any mission. Psi makes that simplest way somewhat dangerous. If your way of winning is taking that path, then no wonder most casaulties are caused by psi - by what else they could? AI has no other counter to 'camping'.
Also, reckless melee assaults naturally lead to heavy casaulties. Skilled ones don't. But there are multiple factors to consider when assaulting, and many types of weaponry need to be employed. And it's not some musings but how I actually do things while playing this.