Author Topic: [ADDON] ROSIGMA  (Read 7507 times)

Offline oxcuser0003

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Re: [ADDON] ROSIGMA
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2021, 05:26:26 pm »
awesome that more stuff is being added - will have to give it a try sometime

Offline Leflair

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Re: [ADDON] ROSIGMA
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2021, 10:14:01 pm »
Give it a spin, what's the worst that could happen? Covered in Nurglings?

New page, so here's a preview of 1.05:
The main course will be the cult of Tzeentch. Up until now we've only had the (expanded) chaos cult, clad in red and with a vague Khorne theming.
But 1.05 will bring in blue clad cultists of Tzeentch to provide some more early and midgame variety.

The roster so far, from low tier to high tier:
-Warped Thralls
-Tzeentch Mutants
-Helot Cultists
-Zealots
-Tzaangors
-Acolytes
-Chaos Witches
-Thrall-Champions/Sorceress
-Summoners (Fatebinders)

A couple of them (inventory only):
Spoiler:

For support they currently have access to:
-Combat Servitors (temporarily on loan from another list)
-Battle Servitor/Heavy Plasma (temporarily on loan from another list)
-Lesser Daemon of Tzeentch. A close cousin of the Horrors, to give a little more daemonic variety and represent the "The Scintillating Legions" that aren't just the uniform daemons.
-Possessed Cultists/Lesser Spawns of Tzeentch. Not the huge lumbering kind, but more of a daemon host/possession of Thrall-Champions.

They'll have a couple of "themes" to their units and capabilities.

Strengths:
-Long ranged and accurate lasgun focus.
-Magic, both in quantity and variety they'll have the most magic users, with all units except for the "soldier" chaff having access to some sort of spells. These will not be merely destructive fireballs, but come in a couple of different flavors like debuffs and panic-causing attacks. I got a couple of source books for ideas.
-Daemon and mutants provide the muscle n meat, for the otherwise frail forces.
-Magic shielding (Dark Shield) give certain units some staying power.
-Flamethrowers provide a little bit of close range cover and AoE capability.

Weaknesses:
-Little melee capability.
-Frail(er), Low HP and armor compared to other chaos forces.
-Little AoE outside of spells, so no rocket launchers or grenade launchers.
-Low rate of fire and fewer autoweapons. No heavy bolters or heavy stubbers.


Short a daemon or two right now, but otherwise I've managed to sprite them all out in the last few weeks.

On the to do list is more new spells and testing.

Offline Simi822

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Re: [ADDON] ROSIGMA
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2021, 10:50:26 pm »
I think you have the Inferno pistol completely wrong, yes it has a limited range, 25 percent to a melta gun but its power should not be decreased but increased! it should be an insta kill weapon, also impossible to build only to buy or get by conquer, what you have in the game is not good

Offline Leflair

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Re: [ADDON] ROSIGMA
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2021, 11:47:57 am »
We have buffed the inferno pistol power by 50% vs vanilla, but otherwise it is untouched. Haven't considered moving when its available or its rarity, but its something to explore (maybe a mastercrafted version or such).

Offline brogue123

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Re: [ADDON] ROSIGMA
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2021, 06:36:15 pm »
Having real problems with the IG on this. Honestly it's really annoyed me. This is going to be a rant, and I just want to say that I only rant with this level of annoyance because this mod has such amazing potential, but it's just not remotely, remotely ready.

I'm no slouch with XCOM, I've played it to death 1000 times on ironman superhuman on vanilla, different mods, and ironmanned the original 40k mod. I can ironman/superhuman the final mod pack with psi-amp disabled. I do not say this to boast. I say this because if I'm playing an XCOM based game and it's ludicrously, profoundly unfair, unfun and unwinnable, I know it's not just me.

I genuinely do not understand how you are supposed to survive as IG unless you are savescumming. The 'early game', such as it is, consists of troops who cannot hit anything - anything. The lasguns, when they do hit, do nothing. Nothing at all. Even if you somehow survive to get close enough to hit, you can drop five or six las shots into an enemy's back - their BACK- and it's nothing to them. And this is basic enemies. Not space marines, not ogryn. Just dudes. And yet all their shots hit, and every shot that hits kills one of your men.

But then there ARE space marines, and ogryn, and squats, right from the start. That's fantastic, it's amazing, brilliant, great - as RAW CONTENT. But you're dropping in this new content WAY before giving the player ANYTHING that can consistently beat it. It totally destroys the fun of the game.

Enemies that are already tough, but when killed, turn into heavily armoured, full health space marines (!) that then become invisible (!) and slaughter your men with bolter shot? So they inflict one shot kills on every one of your men, and if you somehow manage to track them down, you can fire the entire squad, every action point, every shot in a single fusillade into that one enemy, and it STILL won't die. Then it kills everyone next turn. And these enemies appear RIGHT from the start. And they're not rare. At all. Any chaos terror mission probably has three or four of the things.

What are you trying to do here? Are you drunk?

It's an amazing enemy, fantastic. Love it. Brilliant idea, brilliantly implemented. Even looks cool, old-school ALPHA armour, love the lore. Love it. But to drop this on the player over and over, right from the start, as one of the basic enemies faced when there is nothing that can consistently hurt it, is absurd.

Getting the mounted heavy bolter feels like a revolution, not because it's powerful, just because it actually allows some level of consistency in killing anything. But it's so static that you have to mount a static defence of the thing.  On every single mission. Every mission becomes the same, by necessity. Any deviation from it results in immediate death. And woe betide you if that 300 000 buck thing takes a single shot. 300 000? What's the mount made out of? Gold-plated diamond?

It is absurd. Honestly absurd. Even disembarking from a craft - how? You can't pop smoke to cover your exit because it's been so nerfed you need 4/5 smoke grenades to do it, and whoever's throwing those grenades will almost certainly die, along with 2 or three people behind them from the hail of automatic reaction shot that rains down. Even if you get smoke up, enemy sentinels can somehow (?) see right through smoke and hit you with missiles. Any missiles immediately kill everyone in the entire blast radius.

"Stay in the ship, cede the first turn! Then you wont face reaction fire!" Um okay, but all the ships have massive, wide-open doors that can be shot through.

"Punt a smoke grenade out and then they won't shoot in!" - Um, okay, but I can't shoot a smoke grenade out because my heavy bolter is in the way, I can't move it down the line to put penitents first, and I can't not take it, because nobody else has the ability to shoot/hit/hurt anything.

"It's okay, just send out penitents!" If you're disembarking with penitents, you have no heavy bolters, and if you have no heavy bolters how the hell are winning anything?

"On the Chimera you have a third tank, fill that with penitents, run them out first!" Um, okay. But that's just bad design, if the only way I can possibly disembark on ANY MISSION where it's open ground in front of me is to throw 4-6 prisoners to their immediate death in turn one, every time? Two things. Firstly, that's just grim, ugly gameplay. Secondly, it also means that you're NOT taking a big squad of IG. You're taking a tiny squad of IG, because all the space is taken up with heavy bolters and doomed penitents, so you've got like, 5 spaces left for actual guardsmen. So now not only are you useless, you're totally outnumbered in every engagement. Wahey! I've survived turn one! Now I'm dead on turn two.

"Use sentinels! They're tough!" - No they're not. They're made of tinfoil. I've never had one survive a single round while exposed. Against basic, lowest-possible-level enemies. How is it that their las-shot can rend metal armour, but your las-shot barely even tickles? Are they all packing mini-lascannons or hotshot whatever? Okay, great. Love the new content. Love it, genuinely love it. But in dumping it all on the player before there's any chance to hit back you are destroying the actual game. And the multilaser on the sentinel? Are you drunk? I've had that thing fail to kill basic guardsmen from four squares away, firing both volleys. It's as dangerous as a 1970's disco light.

"Try the Scion strategy, you get hotshot lasweapons with infinite ammo!" That sounds amazing, I'll do that! Oh wait though, it means I also get no HMVs whatsoever, no heavy bolters, nothing. And those hotshot lasweapons are STILL nothing like good enough to beat the enemies you meet right from the start. I remember one time I open a door into an enemy ship. First or second month, really early on. Chaos Space Marine there. Facing away from me. I walk RIGHT UP BEHIND HIM and unload a volley of shot into his back from the most powerful Scion gun, the hotshot volley gun. Four hits. Then he turns around, no fucks given, and kills the Scion. Great stuff.

"well, they're IG, they're expendable" - not if the entire team panics at the drop of a hat they're not. They don't seem to think each other are expendable. Lose maybe three in a turn? The whole squad just crumbles.

Oh, and Scions cost, when you factor all the expenses in the manufacturing in, almost twice as much as actual Space Marines.

Here's my question. Does anyone involved in the construction of this mod actually care about how this plays as a game?

This mod is not accurate to how Imperial Guard are in 40k. It is not. NOT ACCURATE. NOT REMOTELY.

I've played imperial guard and I've played against imperial guard. Lasguns are not totally useless. Massed lasgun fire can really do damage, even against armoured infantry. But in this mod laguns are genuinely, frighteningly USELESS. You might as well throw bad language at the opponent. Are these trained soldiers? The basic soldiers on XCOM actually can kill sectoids and floaters with the basic guns. It's not easy, but it's doable. But this? They feel like inmates from a remedial care home doing 40k cosplay.

You have enough amazing new content here to do something genuinely staggering. You can implement 40k in an XCOM engine, the whole shebang. You're clearly on your way, and the new content is cool, interesting, epic. You know what would be even better? If the starting tier of difficulty had any level of fairness to it. It doesn't. You're up against things straight off the bat that your weapons simply cannot hurt, which can slaughter half your men in a heartbeat.

If you drench the area in smoke you can kind of survive for a while, but even then the nerfing of the smoke has made it so absurdly patchy that you get shot (flawlessly, lethally, every time) by things on the other side of the map you can't even see, and still can't find even if you use all your time units to run right at them. What do you do? Honestly what?

None of this is fun.

None of this is fun.

None of this is fun.

I read about the ROSIGMA mod having amazing new content, but appalling game balance. I've seen people say that over and over. Have you never heard that? They are right. This is ridiculous.

I encountered this problem before in another mod that will remain nameless - amazing content, really cool, huge time and effort put in, but no discipline when it came to crafting the actual game-play experience. Just a splurge of new, high-level content and nothing to counter it. Nothing.

I understand the temptation. The temptation to just add cool new stuff, and then show it off. No point burying it in the end game, right? You want people to see SQUATS! OGRYN! ALPHA LEGION! Right? But your exuberance over your new content causes a lack of discipline in burying the player under unwinnable conditions.

While the development of this mod focused on adding cool new units, this will never be worth playing by anyone. It is not fun to play. Not close to fun.

Tone the beginning down. Make sure that there are things that actually can counter the enemies you're bringing in. Stop trying to show off all your fancy new stuff. Leave it till the mid tier, the end tier. Hell, make four or five new tiers and turn the whole game into a massive epic. Whatever. But swamping the player straight off the bat is absurd, and kills this mod as a player experience.

The original 40k mod had balance. That was probably the most impressive thing about it - not that it was a 40k reskin of xcom, now because it had all the cool units, but because someone had taken real care to make it work as an actual player experience.

I understand others enjoy ROSIGMA. Has anyone actually played IG without savescumming? If you can't survive without savescumming, that's bad design. This is a badly designed mod. Amazing new content, terrible game design.

Now I have to commit japanese ritual suicide to make up for the disgusting level of sickening entitlement I have just displayed in my criticism of this free mod, which has a wealth of really impressive, inspiring individual elements.

I hate myself for even saying this. And maybe it's just me, man. Maybe I'm just terrible at this particular mod. Maybe there's some tactic I don't know about that everyone knows about. I don't know.

But if there's anything in what I've said that isn't total nonsense, that means someone involved in the development of this mod needs to take personal resposibility for the game balance, and actually treat that as a part of the game equally as important as some fancy new gun or exciting new enemy.

I'm not asking it to be made easy. Just possible.

Rant over.

Sorry.

*commits japanese ritual suicide*

Offline Yankes

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Re: [ADDON] ROSIGMA
« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2021, 07:01:46 pm »
best thing is that if you think mod is broken you can fix it easy, create new sub mod that rebalnce game.
Find all lasguns weapons and bump damage by 2x and see how your game play feel after that.

Offline Buscher

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Re: [ADDON] ROSIGMA
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2021, 01:25:58 am »
Thanks for the rant. I get a few things where they are coming from but what confuses me about are two things.
1. Where is this hidden feedback group you are talking about because I get nearly zero feedback on balance in general. 
2. How is it that you consider the 40k base mod balance to be that much different? Unless you played IGMA that actually made Lasguns more worthwhile, you are playing with the exact same damageType, power for the weapons as well as damage modifiers for the armors as the base mod does. Only the armor values themselves are slightly different for this matter.
If you want to try you can give this sub mod a shot (effective 25 % damage increase for Lasguns, less accuracy dropoff per tile). Again something I got very little feedback on. That's why I am hesitant to put it into the mod itself. If you don't like the range thing, then just delete the range related rul file.

I gladly invite you to our discord. Feel free to hang around and start some of the (less ranty) discussions.

As for answering your post in detail, I plan to do it at a later time.

Offline Leflair

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Re: [ADDON] ROSIGMA
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2021, 01:52:35 am »
Constructive feedback is always welcome, and we do indeed not get a lot of it (just skim this thread). 

The 1.04 has only been out for a month, but the feedback I've gotten has not pointed to any big balance issues (you're the first, really), this may simply be because most regular players that do play it and give feedback are pretty experienced with how to handle the tougher foes. Your experience may differ, for example are Chaos Space Marines *not* common as a early enemy (there's always a chance with things like Terror missions) and you may always spawn in the middle of a enemy squad (this goes for vanilla 40k too).

There's a few things from your notes that's already been worked into update 1.05 (coming soon). Other things are bigger longterm goals of the mod to tackle, with some solutions being work in progress.

A couple of changes in 1.05 that may adress some of your issues: 
-Enemy Squats have less armor, and are easier to hit. They're not as common either.
-There is a new strong early game Heavy Stubber for Guard, and a Heavy Lasgun with overcharged power shots (there's some other lasgun changes like this to allow for punchier shots too). The Early Game Guard Counters may need a little tutorial.
-Enemy sentinels do indeed, like your own sentinels, have advanced optics that allow them to see through some smoke. But like your own Sentinel experience, they die to a stiff breeze. Speaking of Sentinels, the player version is getting a armor buff in 1.05.
-We're gradually shifting the tougher enemies to rarer/later appearances. The big one to stretch out the appearance of things like enemy CSM is in a later update though (some things in the work that need more time).

I'll let Buscher answer the Guard Tactics questions. As we've lost 33% of our manpower (Xom is busy soldiering IRL), it's just the two of us plus a few helpful people lending a hand from time to time.



One big balancing difficulty is that if the game is easy enough for early guard, it's very easy for Space Marines or Sisters. For this we've been working on some "difficulty options" that will allow for more ingame tweaking to your liking. Things like increased income, or getting more veteran troops. It's always going to be hard to tweak the balance so that it's both satisfying for veteran-, new players and works for all factions.


Offline Simi822

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Re: [ADDON] ROSIGMA
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2021, 10:26:01 am »
personally I think playing as the IG is OK using this mod playing as the Arbiters is a torture but still manageable
but when we speak unbalanced, then this MOD is very far behind the shit show called Xcom Files now that is unbalanced and unplayable IMHO.

and a question, I am playing now as the Arbiters and I see enemy Ratlings? and Traitor Catachans?

will they be available for the player when playing IG?

Also when the enemy can have Tech priest and/or Battle Servitors will they be available for the player?

and the SM have dreadnoughts, the Sisters have Penitent Engines...maybe add a "Compact" Imperial Knight for the IG (something that would be a reward like the Lord Commissar after a special achievement) to make the IG more capable...cannot thing of anything that could be added to the Arbiters...

and maybe add more "Special" loot that can only be found in Munitorum depos and/or on slayed "Bosses"  (like the Tigrus Bolter, etc) I mentioned the Inferno Gun earlier that should be a compact multi melta with 25 percent range and should be not available for production...maybe Digi weapons? (one shot insta kill close range weapons with 2-3 shots per mission) or rare combi bolters, necromunda combi weapons? and divide them into early-mid-late tier (or even maybe not...)

never less the mod is great and continue with the great work (I could not imagine myself going back to playing vanilla 40k mod)

Offline Leflair

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Re: [ADDON] ROSIGMA
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2021, 12:18:44 pm »
Unless the main 40k mod has snuck in Catachans and Ratlings, I'd say those are not a thing (yet). You might be running into some deserters, one of which has a rather tattered rambo look. And the "Rattlings" might be some form of traitor squat?

1.05 does have player Guard Squats (flak and carapace versions) and Guard Beastmen (ditto), which will give at least some IG strategies some tougher early game unit options!

Player Battle Servitors, and cyborgs, has been discussed and might appear with a later update. Would be a good way to allow IG (And Arbites) to "upgrade" their soldiers, make them tougher etc, in exchange for money/resources. Heavy weapons battle servitors would also be a good way to have non-4 tile or weapon teams heavy weapons.

We've not touched Arbites much, but have been discussing integrating them (partially) into certain IG strategies (like Penal legion related). Arbites on their own should be considered [superhuman] difficulty in ROSIGMA (IG not being far behind).

7.1 of OXCE should allow us to do some ammo-upgrades through research without needing new items for everything, which will be one avenue to allow for smoother difficulty curves / early game weapon availability. For example, lasguns could get upgraded power packs through research if one wants to focus on a heavy lasgun pew pew approach.

1.05 will have the basic Primaris armor integration, working out to a buff for their armor values.

More special/exotic weapons that can be found/earned through missions, as well as lasgun variants are on the "in the future" list. There's quite a lot of cool lasgun patterns like shotlas, assault lasguns, lasrifles, heavy lasguns and pulse lasguns. Things like longer magazines/Big powercells, drum power cells, double barrels/tripple barrels/rotating barrels (handheld multilaser style), Model 481 "Persuader" Lasgun/Minerva-Aegis Las Carbine/Fractrix pattern assault laser etc). We have to consider when to introduce these to not overwhelm the player, and preserve balance. Mostly mid/late tier for all of these.


 
edit:
My little Surviving 40k 101 guide, some of these things are obvious (depending on how much openxcom you've played) but I do see people playing 40k forget a lot of this (I certainly didn't know all of this when starting):

Tip #1, remember the basics of close quarters combat:
A little write up for how to handle spawning right next to some enemies, doesn't matter if its Squats, Ogryn, CSM or a Chaos Dreadnought (which I just saw happen).
The enemy might even be turned away, a tempting rear or flanking shot!
Your first instict might be to open fire with the closest guy, right? Best odds of hitting with that melta or heavy bolter!
But remember, regardless if it is ROSIGMA or 40k, most enemies bar the weakest cultists or guardsmen have some armor and health, so its not exactly unlikely that the enemy will survive.
And when you shoot a enemy in OpenXcom and they survive, even if that enemy is turned away, they'll get a reaction shot back against you* (exception cases where they have 0 TU, or, important for later - they've already blown their reaction fire this turn).
So what do you do? Your APC doors are open, your drop pod is open. That enemy is gonna shoot right back into your guys. Either as a reaction shot, or on the enemy turn. They gotta go!

A couple of options:
-If playing as Guard, you get Commands. One handy command to use here is the one that grants a reaction bonus. If you're new to openxcom, having higher reaction on *your* troops means they are less likely to trigger that enemy reaction shot.
-Smoke. Plenty of it. But the problem here is that if the enemy is just a few tiles away, their vision will not be blocked, heat vision or no.
-Turrets, don't forget to use these guys first. And not the closest turret but ah, you say, I want to hit the enemy! Shoot with the closest turret?! There's two reason why you do not want to do that. 1) Turrets are usually not that strong (unless you want to lob a tank shell in close proximity to that open apc door) so the enemy is likely to survive and get to reaction fire back - wrecking your close turret. 2) The enemy can MISS that shot, or the turret is closet enough to the entrance of the APC that the enemy reaction fire hits your team inside. Chunky salsa.
So use the most distant turret, not to kill the enemy necessarily, but to draw that reaction fire and hopefully, the enemy will miss your distant turret, and any shot can harmlessly miss because you don't have a open door nearby.
-Grenades primed to explode on the enemy turn. Not recommended due to the fact that early grenades are unlikely to kill the beefier enemies, and you can still draw reaction fire when lobbing them. Still, it can be done safely from some cover so it might be worth a shot.
-A Wall of Fire, the AI will generally avoid going through fire. Now, doesn't work very well if the enemy is really close and has a gun - but in 40k there's plenty of enemies with melee only.
-Targeting nearby ammunition or terrain. Don't forget this, less likely to trigger reaction fire, and you can either get yourself a hole to escape through - or detonate a ammo storage facility and take a good chunk of those enemies out.
-Now,  last resorts: Sometimes you don't have a turret (drop pods) or the random map generator has made your APC drivers park right in the middle of like, 10 burly chaos dudes with heavy weapons. This is a case of where it might be a very good idea to... run away. Now, if that's not possible, or if you think you can still eke out a victory - use a decoy.
Imperial Guard get hologram grenades, other factions have Servitors or Penal legion throw-away troops (or Emperor forbid, dogs!) that can run off to draw that reaction fire. Key here is to not take a unit that's standing like 3 tiles away from the big burly chaos dude in question. You want to draw reaction fire that is likely to miss.

And just general tip is to use any terrain to your advantage*, and to try to deny the enemy a flank if you cannot take them all out in one go.
Instead of sending little fireteams off in all directions to try to kill all the enemies, take all your people and punch into the closest map corner or building. 
Many enemies have limited range on their weapons (and grenades!) and are generally not very good at pursuing the player.
Now, there's a risk with this, you'll be leaving your spare ammo/guns behind in the APC/craft, and there may be more enemies you're walking into. This is not a no brainer tactic to use all the time, the craft is generally the safer place to be. Unless you've parked near a small platoon of enemies. 
*You do not want to be standing out in the open at the end of a turn.  If you don't have to rely on random luck, or smoke, then don't. Find anything that puts something between your units and the enemy, in openxcom even a 0% shot can hit (or a miss targeting someone else).  It can even be worthwile to use a *unit* to protect your other units by way of line of fire, like sticking a big Ogryn in the path of fire. They have a lot of health, they might survive!



« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 04:49:50 pm by Leflair »

Offline brogue123

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Re: [ADDON] ROSIGMA
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2021, 06:17:00 pm »
Okay, thanks for your responses, I felt awful about sending that and I'd just logged back in to apologise - sorry again for being so sharp.

My passion comes from truly, truly loving this game. I love this game so much, and when it's done well it's amazing.

But.... really impressed with your responses. Leflair and Buscher, I'll answer point for point.

It's been years since I properly chopped up a quote on a forum to do this so if I get the html all over the place and it looks ridiculous, feel free to throw things at my head.


Constructive feedback is always welcome, and we do indeed not get a lot of it (just skim this thread). 

The 1.04 has only been out for a month, but the feedback I've gotten has not pointed to any big balance issues (you're the first, really), this may simply be because most regular players that do play it and give feedback are pretty experienced with how to handle the tougher foes.

This is a serious problem. If you are genuinely unaware of the balance problems in this mod, it is a serious problem. It's like flying  at speed into a brick wall. If nobody's saying anything to you, you are not getting the feedback you need to make this into a decent game. And what hurts is that the content added is so good, and it's just going to waste.

I think there's a lot of people who don't want to admit it's too hard. Honestly, if I didn't have the level of experience I have at this game, I probably wouldn't feel confident to say something. Some other people just like to boast, so they don't like admitting they can't do it. But I know I'm good. Sorry, that's an asshole thing to say, but I am. I've played this game for years, I only ever play on Ironman on the hardest difficulty, and what makes this game so amazing is that that actually can be done. The hardest difficulty is really, really hard.... but possible. It is fair. There is a way through. Always. And so it makes it tense, cool - but also hopeful, fun, possible.

This is the key to making an XCOM mod work - (god, I sound like such a patronising arse even saying this, I know, I'm sorry) but it is the key. There has to be a way to win. To consistently win - it can be hard, like walking a tightrope - but it can't be impossible.


Your experience may differ, for example are Chaos Space Marines *not* common as a early enemy (there's always a chance with things like Terror missions) and you may always spawn in the middle of a enemy squad (this goes for vanilla 40k too).

My experience DOES differ. I think they're more common than you think they are. And mate- just remember this. If even ONE shows up, that mission becomes UNWINNABLE IMMEDIATELY for normal guardsmen. And you can say - well, lasfire reduces armour. Sure. But the accuracy and damage being done by the entire squad being so appallingly bad, you might as well be throwing a rock at the moon.

That is the truth. It is the actual truth of playing the game. If you say "well, these people aren't having problems" those people are savescumming. HARD. OVER AND OVER.

But then you say Space Marines are not there from the start - um... dude. Play your own game. Sit down, fire up Imperial Guard, PRESS THE IRONMAN BUTTON and try to survive three months. You will fail. Straight up. This is not a winnable game. That means it isn't fun, and it isn't fair. And I don't care who your veterans are, or what they're doing. Survive without savescumming on this mod for a full year, let alone actually win? You might as well tell me you can jump to the moon. Straight up, that person is either lying, deluded, or doing something dramatically different from anything I have ever seen done in this game after decades of playing it. I would suggest that they are lying.

If you cannot kill Space Marines, think about what that actually means TO THE GAME EXPERIENCE. It means that any Space Marines necessitate an immediate retreat from an unwinnable mission. Avoiding Space Marines means avoiding EVERY terror mission, and EVERY enemy base until you have the weapons to take them. It also means immediately fleeing from EVERY crash landing or landed plane where they show up.

Is this an intentional choice? Did you decide that this would be your game?

If you did, why do you hate us so much? What have we done to hurt you? How can we earn your forgiveness?

If not, you have two choices. Delay space marines, or SERIOUSLY buff imperials. Not just "tweak the lasfire". Do something drastic to give your game the basic ability to function. That's it. Them's your choices. There are no others.

Oh and, if the only people giving you any feedback are people utterly expert at every single enemy, what's that feedback worth? Honestly? With only that feedback you cannot balance this mod. You can't do it. You just can't. It will never be playable.

And what are these magic strategies these 'veterans' have? What? How do you stop something that can shoot a rocket/lascannon shot through smoke from across the map, when none of your guns have the capacity to reach/hurt that thing? What's the strategy you use?

And I understand it's very easy to get defensive. God, I hear myself saying these things and I can only hope you're ten times the man I am because I'd full-on have a tantrum if I heard them. But it's not just me. I know XCOM. I know what's possible, I know what's not.


There's a few things from your notes that's already been worked into update 1.05 (coming soon). Other things are bigger longterm goals of the mod to tackle, with some solutions being work in progress.

A couple of changes in 1.05 that may adress some of your issues: 
-Enemy Squats have less armor, and are easier to hit. They're not as common either.

They are tough little fuckers, yeah. But maybe introduce in a later tier? Squats are awesome, an awesome idea, really well done. Better than the nerf is to make them an event. Some squats just dug out of the ground or something - oh no! Then they start showing up in random things.

-There is a new strong early game Heavy Stubber for Guard, and a Heavy Lasgun with overcharged power shots (there's some other lasgun changes like this to allow for punchier shots too). The Early Game Guard Counters may need a little tutorial.

Cool! Sounds great! More stuff like this!

-Enemy sentinels do indeed, like your own sentinels, have advanced optics that allow them to see through some smoke.

But the enemy never uses smoke, so this is not an actual leveller between us. It's just a massive buff for the enemy which essentially means that smoke means nothing now. One missile, squad gone, thanks for playing. That's what you've done.

Now look, I get that smoke is this bug up everyone's ass "oh it's so unbalanced, oh it's so terrible, you just spam smoke". Those people are idiots. Smoke is extremely important for protecting fragile troops from advanced weapons. This is EXACTLY the situation you are starting ALL your players in, and if you take away smoke, you're really crippling them. Maybe a later version of the sentinel, an advanced version with night vision googles or whatever - great. Amazing. LATER. Same with the fucking mounted lascannon sniper bastards. I swear because of the hate I feel. Just think of what that does to the game experience. Think. Really think. Or better still, play. Play it on ironman, see what happens.

What happens is, area denial. That's the military term. Area denial of the entire map. Every open space, every open anything. Can't cross it through smoke, they see through smoke. Can't cross it in one go, not enough time units. And if you can't get close enough to it, you can't shoot a rocket, you can't throw a grenade, you can't lasfire the thing, and if you're a position you can snipe it you're already dead because it's sniped you first.

It cripples the entire squad's ability to move anywhere without taking savage, unstoppable casualties.

That's what it means. Is this a choice you have intentionally made? Honestly... HONESTLY... did you sit down and say "this is how this game will play." Did you? I very much doubt it. And yet it is how the game plays. So what does that mean? Who is making choices about how the game plays? Who takes that role?

I understand your nerfing the main grenade - even though it was already much more expensive in this mod. But then to make mounted lascannons with infinite range able to see through smoke? That's absurd. Genuinely. It's like a choice taken in isolation from how the game actually plays. It's like - one soldier dead every turn. And you cannot hit that thing from across the map as starting guard. This is major, major problem. A major problem with the game. Really serious. Unfair, boring, stupid.


But like your own Sentinel experience, they die to a stiff breeze.


No they don't. No they don't. The fact that you think they do says to me you are not playing your own game. You are looking at code, you are looking at stats, you are not playing the game, you are not experiencing the player experience.

To take down an enemy sentinel with lasfire means closing range enough that a large number of your men can all fire autofire, and hit it. Think about that. Actually think about what that actually means in an actual game you actually play. It means closing distance with something that can fire rockets through smoke, and one hit by one of those rockets doesn't just kill 6-7 men (the bare minimum needed to take it down with lasfire), it also panicks the entire squad because of thier deaths, and it's game over.

Is this an intentional game choice? Did you decide this? I just don't think you did. I think nobody decided this. I just don't think people are playing this mod as a game.

And I know what you're going to say. Oh what about the disposable rockets!

Firstly, you get enemy sentinels a long time before you get those researched. Secondly, it is bad, bad, bad game design to introduce an enemy where there's only one possible solution in this single thing you have to research but you don't know about in a massive range of research options. Thirdly, 45% accuracy when shot, from a guardsman who already has the firing accuracy of Michael J Fox? This is not a solution. It's not. The idea that it's a solution could only be sustained by someone who simply had not played this mod - or who played it reloading every three seconds.


Speaking of Sentinels, the player version is getting a armor buff in 1.05.


Cool!

-We're gradually shifting the tougher enemies to rarer/later appearances. The big one to stretch out the appearance of things like enemy CSM is in a later update though (some things in the work that need more time).

Mate, look - I am consistently amazed and impressed at the incredible work you do. It's awesome, just awesome. I lay these challenges at your feet because this is an absolutely epic, kick ass content mod. It's awesome, so awesome, really. Take as long as you need. But I would say this is exactly the way to go. All your new enemies are epic. You just cannot throw them at the player from round 1, and expect your game to survive as a game. But they mean that what you could have is this insanely deep playing experience, where kick-ass new stuff just keeps on opening up. That's awesome. So awesome. Do that!

I'll let Buscher answer the Guard Tactics questions. As we've lost 33% of our manpower (Xom is busy soldiering IRL), it's just the two of us plus a few helpful people lending a hand from time to time.


Dude, totally love your work. If it's ready twenty years from now, I'll download it and play it through my white beard. And thank Xom for his service.

One big balancing difficulty is that if the game is easy enough for early guard, it's very easy for Space Marines or Sisters. For this we've been working on some "difficulty options" that will allow for more ingame tweaking to your liking. Things like increased income, or getting more veteran troops. It's always going to be hard to tweak the balance so that it's both satisfying for veteran-, new players and works for all factions.

Okay - I see what you're saying, but here's my counter.

Think of it like actual 40k. If you got a well put together SM army, vs a well put together IG army, would the SM simply waltz across the guard like they're not even there? No. Not at all. IG are a really serious force, really serious.

Firstly, there's about 3 times as many of them. That's no joke. Lasfire is a problem for Space Marines when 3/4 shots are being fired for every marine you have. Also tanks and mounted weapons. Tanks would be a problem in an XCOM engine, obviously, but mounted weapons? Hmm.

Again, sorry to mention it, but I fired up the game to see again last night. 13,500 spacebucks for a heavy bolter, Godwyn pattern. 300,000 for the same bolter on a small wheeled platform. Uh..... what? What are you trying to do here? Who made that decision and why?

I feel like a lot of these decisions are being taken because people on the forum are bitching about heavy bolters or smoke making things too easy. I get they are powerful - but the answer is not to take all the power away and then say "well, you're just not a veteran." Nobody's going to be a veteran if this game is so broken. How will you get veteran players if only veteran players can have any hope of winning?

It's your mod mate, but if you don't fix the game balance, HARD, then you'll be stuck with the same tiny pool of 'veterans' who keep telling you there's no problem with your game. Which means that although they may be veterans at playing ROSIGMA, they're certainly not veterans at telling you the truth.

So what would I do? Again - look to 40k for inspiration. The most obvious think I can think of is this.

Make a massive dropship. Something enormous. 26 person space, 4-6 HWP space. Basically AVENGER sized, and that's the IG basic ship. No kidding. There's all sorts of stuff in the lore that could be repurposed for this. Space Marines have tiny little dropships with tiny squads. IG send regiments.

What needs to be understood is that the IG are not shit. Soldier for soldier, sure, yeah, but as an army they are fearsome. Why? Because there's a million of them, they have all sorts of heavy support weapons and lasfire isn't shite. If I could sum it up in a sentence, that's the sentence.

"there's a million of them, they have all sorts of heavy support weapons and lasfire isn't shite."

And if you can't put that as an experience into your mod, then don't have IG in the first place.

But then again I think this speaks to a development focus on individual units/guns and individual changes at that level to fix problems. That's what's hurting the development of this mod. Someone (you) needs to step back and say - what makes IG cool? What makes them something epic?

How can an IG army demolish a SM army? Or a Sororitas army? Because they really, really can, in the normal 40k game, if put together well and played well.

Numbers. Support weapons. Lasfire that actually works. Numbers. Numbers. And more numbers.

26 guardsmen roll out of a ship with 4 heavy bolters and 2 sentinels. Turn one motherfucker. Do you speak it?

That is what needs to be reflected in this to make IG work.

And before anyone says "oh that's so unfair, it would be too easy"... no it wouldn't. You'd take terrible casualties. But you'd be able to take them. And on top of that, I just finished a tier 1 chaos base (as SM) on this mod. 63 enemies. Stealth space marines, nurglings jumping out of dead bodies, enemy snipers, enemy chimera turrets, all sorts of mad shit. 14 highly trained Space Marines only just survived. This mod is MASSIVELY harder than Superhuman difficulty on Xcom, even with Space Marines. And I know it is, beucase I know superhuman difficulty inside out.

Is that a choice? Did you decide - I will make this mod MASSIVELY harder than Superhuman difficulty? Did you? Even with marines. Did you? Again, I'd be surprised if the answer was yes.

26 guardsmen, 4 heavy bolters and 2 sentinels would STILL be a seriously difficult task against that TIER ONE BASE (!) and if you won, you'd be flying home with a lot of dead buddies. Which is exactly how it should be.

But an Avenger-sized craft as your basic ship? That's an easy, quick fix that would resolve a lot. And fix smoke. Night-vision optics has to be third tier, or second tier if you're really, REALLY feeling sadistic. First tier? Unplayable.

I really hope this is all cool. I've tried to be as blunt as possible, because I don't know if anyone else is giving it to you straight. I only challenge people I respect.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 06:55:53 pm by brogue123 »

Offline brogue123

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Re: [ADDON] ROSIGMA
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2021, 06:53:45 pm »
Thanks for the rant. I get a few things where they are coming from but what confuses me about are two things.

1. Where is this hidden feedback group you are talking about because I get nearly zero feedback on balance in general. 

It's not a group, mate. I've seen it written several times in comment threads, things like let's play videos on youtube, mod download comments and such. Just people talking about the mod. And in one instance, what I saw written was someone saying that your mod has a reputation as having great content but being no fun to play. That's where I got that. Can't remember where I saw it, but I'm not lying. Not going to dig it up though.

But I would also suggest that if get zero feedback on balance, it means your balance is appalling. If your game balance was good, people would love to say it to you. If nobody's saying anything, they're embarrassed to say something, either because they don't want to cause a fuss, or because they don't want people thinking they can't do the game.


2. How is it that you consider the 40k base mod balance to be that much different? Unless you played IGMA that actually made Lasguns more worthwhile, you are playing with the exact same damageType, power for the weapons as well as damage modifiers for the armors as the base mod does. Only the armor values themselves are slightly different for this matter.

It is genuinely frightening to me that you ask this. It says to me that you are looking at charts and values and have almost no comprehension of the player experience.

Like, seriously, I'm about to write a sentence and I'm not even sure if you're trolling me.

Are you genuinely unaware that ROSIGMA confronts the player with vastly increased numbers of massively tougher enemies from the very start? Do you genuinely not understand that this is true? I don't know what to say. I genuinely don't.

On the normal 40k mod, almost everyone you face, straight off the bat, is an unarmoured human. No Ogryn, no Squats. And whatever 'small boost' those guardsmen have been given in ROSIGMA, it's enough to take their armour almost beyond the reach of normal lasfire.

I mean, I don't know what to tell you. I am honestly speechless.  Stop just looking at stats, code and charts. The original 40k starts out massively, MASSIVELY MASSIVELY MASSIVELY easier than this mod. It is genuinely surreal that you seem to suggest the difference is marginal, and it shows a howling gulf between your idea of your game, and the actual reality of it.


If you want to try you can give this sub mod a shot (effective 25 % damage increase for Lasguns, less accuracy dropoff per tile). Again something I got very little feedback on. That's why I am hesitant to put it into the mod itself. If you don't like the range thing, then just delete the range related rul file.

Look mate, I think this is a bad answer.

Honestly. Not just to me, but to anyone who points out the massive balance issues. "Here, use this, it'll make it easier." This is a band aid over a bolter wound.

This is indicative of a defensive development culture that won't look major balance issues in the eye.

Fixing the lasstuff is a great plan, but only one issue out of a lot. A lot of issues. And all the issues point to only one conclusion. Who in the development of this game is making it their priority to crafting a fair, fun player experience? Fair and fun do not mean easy. Ironman superhuman on the FMP with psi amp research disabled isn't easy, but it is fun and it is fair. That's not by accident. Solarius_scorch decided to craft it as an experience, to make the balance of the game central to everything.

You're adding new content, amazing new content. But who makes it their personal responsibility to craft how this game actually plays? Who? Do you? Who does?

That's the problem. And while that problem remains unfixed, a patch for the lasguns ain't gonna cut it.

It is dismissive and demeaning to tell someone to download some mod that makes the game less hard. I'm not asking for it to be made "less hard". The game you have made is not "hard", it is broken. It doesn't work as a game. It doesn't. And the lasfire thing is just one expression of that. Her'es another experssion of it: your personal lack of comprehension that the mod you yourself are making is staggeringly, massively, unplayably more difficult than the original 40k mod. That's honestly surreal. Who in the development of this mod is taking any actual time to experience, craft and hone the game balance?

Okay, maybe that's not your thing. Fine. But if it's NOBODY's thing, then what? Then it's a pointless mod and your content is wasted. No value whatsoever. Unplayable. Boring. Annoying. Stupid. And full of all these amazing pieces of brilliant content nobody will - or should - ever have the patience to discover.

I hate myself for saying this stuff. It's horrible. I'd hate to hear it. But it's the truth.

Think of it like this. It's like someone's making a film, but there's no director. There's makeup artists, actors playing their part, even a screenplay, special effects - but no director. Nobody's doing that job. Nobody's saying "where do these bits fit in to create X experience?". They're just sticking stuff in based on how cool they individually think the bits of it are.

What happens?

All the individual bits can be absolutely amazing, but if nobody's crafting an experience for the audience, it's a godawful mess.

This mod has no director. Nobody's doing that job. You clearly are not. Who is? I would suggest nobody. Someone has to do that. Someone has to ask "what do I want the player to experience?" And then you'll have a centre around which to build the thing, you won't just be bolting new sprites on the side hoping that at some point it just sort of 'works'. It won't.

I gladly invite you to our discord. Feel free to hang around and start some of the (less ranty) discussions.

As for answering your post in detail, I plan to do it at a later time.

Whenever man, no rush. Honestly I feel scared to look back at this thread after I've said all this stuff. I'm just expecting someone to block me for being a prick.

I hope, perhaps beyond hope, that my admiration for what you do is clear. The ROSIGMA mod is absolutely amazing, content-wise, and anyone who says it's not is probably a filthy communist. I know I'm saying stuff hard. I will stop if you guys want. But all my love to you and to this amazing community, you've all given me so much kick ass, creative, interesting stuff.

Someone needs to be the director. That's what it is.

Offline Buscher

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Re: [ADDON] ROSIGMA
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2021, 07:52:09 pm »
It's not a group, mate. I've seen it written several times in comment threads, things like let's play videos on youtube, mod download comments and such. Just people talking about the mod. And in one instance, what I saw written was someone saying that your mod has a reputation as having great content but being no fun to play. That's where I got that. Can't remember where I saw it, but I'm not lying. Not going to dig it up though.


So the feedback doesn't exist. Gotcha.
Also authority by numbers is a super lame way to argue if you cannot show your numbers.
Besides there are not many let's plays on Youtube. In fact there is only one I know of.

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But I would also suggest that if get zero feedback on balance, it means your balance is appalling. If your game balance was good, people would love to say it to you. If nobody's saying anything, they're embarrassed to say something, either because they don't want to cause a fuss, or because they don't want people thinking they can't do the game.

That's one possible conclusion. Of many. Doesn't mean that's the correct one.
That one Youtuber (Anton) is actually in our discord and gives us bug reports from time to time.

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It is genuinely frightening to me that you ask this. It says to me that you are looking at charts and values and have almost no comprehension of the player experience.

Unlike you I actually watch related Streams to ROSIGMA on Twitch as well on Youtube. Anton does a good enough job. So does Lixstar (who even made ROSIGMA harder for him). As well other people on different Discord streams. The main complaints are the hit and miss raceLists which randomly distribute Ogryns and Squats into usually easier lists. That they don't drop quickly enough. And that the game is way too reliant on heavy weapons (like the base mod)

So yeah these are valid complaints and something we are actually looking into it. Also I finished a campaign with IG myself and it was fun to me. I have even streamed part of it on our discord. I had also started a Firstborn Marine Assault twitch stream a few months ago which I have never finished, because more important things came up. So in fact I do both, player experience and spreadsheets. Anecdotal evidence only gets you that far.

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Like, seriously, I'm about to write a sentence and I'm not even sure if you're trolling me.

Are you genuinely unaware that ROSIGMA confronts the player with vastly increased numbers of massively tougher enemies from the very start? Do you genuinely not understand that this is true? I don't know what to say. I genuinely don't.

I know that. Thank you very much for telling me in a calm tone.

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On the normal 40k mod, almost everyone you face, straight off the bat, is an unarmoured human. No Ogryn, no Squats. And whatever 'small boost' those guardsmen have been given in ROSIGMA, it's enough to take their armour almost beyond the reach of normal lasfire.

So you didn't play the base mod. Otherwise you would be happy about facing just Ogryns and Squats and not missions full of Chaos Marines from month 1 on. The only 'easy' missions are spawned by Cultist and Traitor Guard bases there. Also we got rid of that crazy Ork start.

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You're adding new content, amazing new content. But who makes it their personal responsibility to craft how this game actually plays? Who? Do you? Who does?

You could be part of it, but there is obviously no interest as you are not willing to talk about situations, save games, experiences whatever. Instead I get a second wall of text chock full of non-content/non-feedback.
Missed your other post. I am going to take a look at your previous posts later, as I said.

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It is dismissive and demeaning to tell someone to download some mod that makes the game less hard. I'm not asking for it to be made "less hard". The game you have made is not "hard", it is broken. It doesn't work as a game. It doesn't. And the lasfire thing is just one expression of that. Her'es another experssion of it: your personal lack of comprehension that the mod you yourself are making is staggeringly, massively, unplayably more difficult than the original 40k mod. That's honestly surreal. Who in the development of this mod is taking any actual time to experience, craft and hone the game balance?

So you are not dismissive and demeaning? Gotcha.
Sorry for actually trying to do something about your problems in a short time.
Also I said that I would answer you later in full.

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Whenever man, no rush. Honestly I feel scared to look back at this thread after I've said all this stuff. I'm just expecting someone to block me for being a prick.

Too bad you said nearly zilch in this post I reply to. Sorry, but constructive feedback looks different.

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Someone needs to be the director. That's what it is.
You obviously don't want to be the director. It's great that other people do it for you.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2021, 08:03:18 pm by Buscher »

Offline Buscher

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Re: [ADDON] ROSIGMA
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2021, 09:21:36 pm »
Forum ate my first reply. Let's go at it again.

Having real problems with the IG on this. Honestly it's really annoyed me. This is going to be a rant, and I just want to say that I only rant with this level of annoyance because this mod has such amazing potential, but it's just not remotely, remotely ready.

The mod is obviously in development. We are still in the content creation stage. That means that's in alpha stage. But it's very playable. Even for IG.

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[... I] ironmanned the original 40k mod. [...]
I genuinely do not understand how you are supposed to survive as IG unless you are savescumming.

Ironmanned 40k base mod, can't play ROSIGMA. Pick one.

I have finished the ROSIGMA IG campaign myself without savescumming. I have only savescummed when my craft item pile was destroyed. I have watched other people play the first months. So it's possible.

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But then there ARE space marines, and ogryn, and squats, right from the start.

Space Marines are your enemies in the base mod from the get go. There are no intermediate enemies such as the Ogryns and Squats. The only easy missions are spawned by Cultist and Traitor Guard bases.
We have moved Space Marines back to have a more gradual (read flatter) difficulty curve.


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Enemies that are already tough, but when killed, turn into heavily armoured, full health space marines (!) that then become invisible (!) and slaughter your men with bolter shot

1. You don't have to win all terror missions. It's possible that I will bail on the first one too.
2. I have seen streamers win against Alpha Legion even early game
3. They are a new enemy so they get moved forward for testing


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Getting the mounted heavy bolter feels like a revolution, not because it's powerful, just because it actually allows some level of consistency in killing anything. But it's so static that you have to mount a static defence of the thing.  On every single mission. Every mission becomes the same, by necessity. Any deviation from it results in immediate death. And woe betide you if that 300 000 buck thing takes a single shot. 300 000? What's the mount made out of? Gold-plated diamond?

The Mounted Heavy Bolter is a good weapon and a very good tactical asset. As such it can be costly as any other HWP is. The tank in Xcom1 wasn't cheaper either and can be blown apart when going down the ramp.
This game is OpenXcom, if the enemy shoots at you all the time, you are doing it wrong. Your people are not bullet sponges. The time to kill is very short. My Mounted Heavy Bolters only get destroyed when unexpectantly being flanked.

Also other heavy weapons are available. Heavy Stubbers, Grenade Launcher, Missile Launcher. As well as Heavy Bolters are available that can be carried by a single Guardsman. There are enough options, you just have to use them.

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It is absurd. Honestly absurd. Even disembarking from a craft - how? You can't pop smoke to cover your exit because it's been so nerfed you need 4/5 smoke grenades to do it, and whoever's throwing those grenades will almost certainly die, along with 2 or three people behind them from the hail of automatic reaction shot that rains down. Even if you get smoke up, enemy sentinels can somehow (?) see right through smoke and hit you with missiles. Any missiles immediately kill everyone in the entire blast radius.

Did you consider to use your Chimera Turrets to draw fire on turn 1? It's really helpful in that regard and will allow your soldiers to disembark nearly unimpeded.
Also Sentinels do have heatVision so they can look through smoke. That's why it's important not to throw smoke at your feet but between you and your enemy.

Are you trying to destroy the Traitor Guard base in the beginning? Because you aren't supposed to do that before you did a few other missions and a bit of research (such as the Heavy Weapons topic you instantly get after picking Guardsman Strategy). Enemy bases are supposed to be hard.


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"Stay in the ship, cede the first turn! Then you wont face reaction fire!" Um okay, but all the ships have massive, wide-open doors that can be shot through.

"Punt a smoke grenade out and then they won't shoot in!" - Um, okay, but I can't shoot a smoke grenade out because my heavy bolter is in the way, I can't move it down the line to put penitents first, and I can't not take it, because nobody else has the ability to shoot/hit/hurt anything.

Use the Valkyrie Drop Transport then. Besides you can only cede the first turn if nothing is infront of your doors. If there is something then use your Chimera Turrets to draw fire.
Also you have exactly this problem in the base mod, so no idea why it's different in ROSIGMA.

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"It's okay, just send out penitents!" If you're disembarking with penitents, you have no heavy bolters, and if you have no heavy bolters how the hell are winning anything?

"On the Chimera you have a third tank, fill that with penitents, run them out first!" Um, okay. But that's just bad design, if the only way I can possibly disembark on ANY MISSION where it's open ground in front of me is to throw 4-6 prisoners to their immediate death in turn one, every time? Two things. Firstly, that's just grim, ugly gameplay. Secondly, it also means that you're NOT taking a big squad of IG. You're taking a tiny squad of IG, because all the space is taken up with heavy bolters and doomed penitents, so you've got like, 5 spaces left for actual guardsmen. So now not only are you useless, you're totally outnumbered in every engagement. Wahey! I've survived turn one! Now I'm dead on turn two.

Did you know that there are Chimera Turrets that can draw fire? If you use up Penitents to draw all the fire in turn 1, you are doing it wrong.

It is really strange that I can complete even hard missions with only low losses. The moments when only 3 Commissars remain is very rare. By the way. Their ability is super useful.

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"Use sentinels! They're tough!" - No they're not. They're made of tinfoil. I've never had one survive a single round while exposed. Against basic, lowest-possible-level enemies. How is it that their las-shot can rend metal armour, but your las-shot barely even tickles? Are they all packing mini-lascannons or hotshot whatever? Okay, great. Love the new content. Love it, genuinely love it. But in dumping it all on the player before there's any chance to hit back you are destroying the actual game. And the multilaser on the sentinel? Are you drunk? I've had that thing fail to kill basic guardsmen from four squares away, firing both volleys. It's as dangerous as a 1970's disco light.

They don't need to be tough. They are scouts that can look through smoke. They are a great tactical asset allowing spotter/sniper tactics. Also they are great heavy weapon platforms. I am not a fan of the Heavy Flamer but the rest is really good.

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"Try the Scion strategy, you get hotshot lasweapons with infinite ammo!" That sounds amazing, I'll do that! Oh wait though, it means I also get no HMVs whatsoever, no heavy bolters, nothing. And those hotshot lasweapons are STILL nothing like good enough to beat the enemies you meet right from the start. I remember one time I open a door into an enemy ship. First or second month, really early on. Chaos Space Marine there. Facing away from me. I walk RIGHT UP BEHIND HIM and unload a volley of shot into his back from the most powerful Scion gun, the hotshot volley gun. Four hits. Then he turns around, no fucks given, and kills the Scion. Great stuff.

You get Taurox with Autocannons which are much better than the Chimeras' Multilasers. Also you get great soldiers with pretty good stats and equipment. The problem that the elite strategy faces is that they have hard time to recouperate losses which is by design. The elite strategy is not an easy mode.


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"well, they're IG, they're expendable" - not if the entire team panics at the drop of a hat they're not. They don't seem to think each other are expendable. Lose maybe three in a turn? The whole squad just crumbles.

Oh, and Scions cost, when you factor all the expenses in the manufacturing in, almost twice as much as actual Space Marines.

If you lose units every turn you need to improve your game.

Scions have the same cost as in the base mod. Also it doesn't make sense to compare costs for different factions. Besides you can use Krieg Guardsman to foster your ranks. They are not cheap either but they can help.


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Here's my question. Does anyone involved in the construction of this mod actually care about how this plays as a game?

Obviously yes, because IGMA exists so it is more fun for me to play. Same for ROSIGMA.

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This mod is not accurate to how Imperial Guard are in 40k. It is not. NOT ACCURATE. NOT REMOTELY.

Riddle me this. How would you transfer Imperial Guard to OpenXcom? 50 units a mission? Playing with the Gorgon which can fill 50 units is not fun. And even then the Lasgun would have to become even more useless.
The Chimera transports up to 24 units and is also my favourite craft.

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I've played imperial guard and I've played against imperial guard. Lasguns are not totally useless. Massed lasgun fire can really do damage, even against armoured infantry. But in this mod laguns are genuinely, frighteningly USELESS. You might as well throw bad language at the opponent. Are these trained soldiers? The basic soldiers on XCOM actually can kill sectoids and floaters with the basic guns. It's not easy, but it's doable. But this? They feel like inmates from a remedial care home doing 40k cosplay.

Tabletop doesn't apply as you can't translate it 1:1.
Lasguns are not useless. They destroy armor so that follow up shots will pass through armor. The Lasguns in this mod will need less shots than the Lasguns in the fluff.


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Tone the beginning down. Make sure that there are things that actually can counter the enemies you're bringing in. Stop trying to show off all your fancy new stuff. Leave it till the mid tier, the end tier. Hell, make four or five new tiers and turn the whole game into a massive epic. Whatever. But swamping the player straight off the bat is absurd, and kills this mod as a player experience.

Compared to the base mod the beginning is already toned down.

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The original 40k mod had balance. That was probably the most impressive thing about it - not that it was a 40k reskin of xcom, now because it had all the cool units, but because someone had taken real care to make it work as an actual player experience.

Did you play Imperial Guard in the base mod? No?


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Not much to say about your second post.

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Okay - I see what you're saying, but here's my counter.

Think of it like actual 40k. If you got a well put together SM army, vs a well put together IG army, would the SM simply waltz across the guard like they're not even there? No. Not at all. IG are a really serious force, really serious.

A well put force in the mod will also tear a SM group apart. Also it's hard to transfer the Table Top to OpenXcom

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Again, sorry to mention it, but I fired up the game to see again last night. 13,500 spacebucks for a heavy bolter, Godwyn pattern. 300,000 for the same bolter on a small wheeled platform. Uh..... what? What are you trying to do here? Who made that decision and why?

Mounted Heavy Bolter can fire 3 auto salvos per turn and gets a crazy accuracy bonus.
The mobile Heavy Bolters need support of a fellow Guardsman but can be used by soldier. Both have their purpose.

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Make a massive dropship. Something enormous. 26 person space, 4-6 HWP space. Basically AVENGER sized, and that's the IG basic ship. No kidding. There's all sorts of stuff in the lore that could be repurposed for this. Space Marines have tiny little dropships with tiny squads. IG send regiments.

The Chimera has 24 unit space already which is ample space. You will have more troops on the board than the enemy in almost every scenario.

Offline Simi822

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Re: [ADDON] ROSIGMA
« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2021, 12:19:31 am »
so the little short and Fat Ogryn and the Garden Gnome are "Squads" OK I have no clue what it should be the 40K wiki has no entries for "Garden gnomes"

so my playing ROSIGMA with the arbiters...first mission: a church...with Servitors, Panzer Garden gnomes, Hereteks, Ogryns, Sistas with Rocket launchers had to restart 3x because some starting locations where unplayable...but I had 1x Lascannon Sentinel, and a mastiff + Judge with Lawbringer and some penitents with Rocket launchers...can be done....second mission a ship with 12x !!!! Tzen Marines in January :) I already got 1x Meltagun so the Sentinel + light chimera turrets, Rocket launchers + the mastiff!!! (I killed fuken chaos marines with the dogge) and the third mission: Munitorum sabotage was even more difficult but I somehow survived....

so there are no Ratlings and Catachans yet in the game...

I think playing ROSIGMA with IG is much much more easy then the Arbiters...Long las + Hotshot ammo and the Turrets will clean house again most enemies...the Heavy bolters (both handheld and HWP) + Kriegers + Commisars and later the advanced guardsmen are more them enough...plus one can develop and use the Airstrike...but the best weapon is the Missile launcher with Krak missiles...I had too many Base defence missions, and yes I had good experienced soldiers only in two...but I got attacked also in places where I had shite guardsmen..how did I manage...every Guardsmen had a rocket launcher + a Lascannon Sentinel + a Heavy bolter HWP...and I wiped the floor even with Terminators

and what I dont like in the whole 40k mod + Rosigma: the handheld lascannon is shite, and so is the mounted one...the Sentinel is working like a dream...but all other versions are "crap"

and what could be taken over to the IG from the Arbiters...well the sisters have a special Shotgun, so maybe ad a IG special Shotgun (Krieger Lucius Shotgun that can use also special ammo) or is the Ripper the IG special shotgun? (never equipped a human with one...will try) and also a SM shotgun? Deathwatch special space hulk cleaning shottie?  also a silly idea...a Mastiff that the Commissar will use to deal with Deserters?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 12:22:47 am by Simi822 »