Author Topic: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.  (Read 562 times)

Offline krautbernd

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 504
    • View Profile
Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2019, 07:37:01 pm »
I am aware of such a feature in manufacturing.  As far as I understand the usage of this feature, you need to use the soldier generation code from soldier.rul to generate the soldier you want in your team.

It is like hiring. However, this is not converting a capture alien to your own side.
Only you're not hiring aliens. You're producing them. I don't see how this any different from what you're proposing, except instead of 'researching' the alien you're 'manufacturing' a converted unit. It's essentially what you're asking for, but requires more work on your part to implement.

You have to create a soldier generation code in soldier.rul for EACH alien type you need to capture.
You'd probably have to do that anyway since it's your unit and is handled as such in the basescape. You'd probably have to have separate armor definitions as well, or at least modify existing ones (to include customArmorPreviewIndex for example).

Also the stats are not the same from what you originally capture. If I am wrong, then you correct me.
I'm not sure I follow - what are you asking me to correct? Your proposal was that x-com should be able to convert alien units. You're asking for those units to be essentially aliens on x-com's side. If they aren't supposed to have the same stats you have to define them as separate soldier types from scratch anyway, see above. If you don't want to have to create separate definitions you're asking for them to have the same stats, aren't you?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 07:47:35 pm by krautbernd »

Offline Precentor Apollyon

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
    • View Profile
Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2019, 08:07:40 pm »
Thanks Meridian. The original topic was transferring stats from capture aliens to one you command. Something like cloning from soldier transformation. You clone the stats from the capture alien into a new alien.

Again, I don't know how you may implement it, I am not pushing it. I am just thinking it, I thought of the idea, I lay it on the table. This is what this topic is about. It might inspire or generate momentum for it.

I do appreciate the solution that was pointed out of how it can be done using the current coding and rules available but it is very different from what I have in mind. Completely different. I want to capture and turn, not capture and producing.

Anyway, thanks you krautbernd for coming up with a creative way of trying make it happen. However, it does not achieve the same objective...or the spirit of the topic. I do applaud of his enthusiasm in helping but I am appalled by his lack of enthusiasm and deviating from the original topic I had originally raised.

I like giving out ideas, so I can inspire others in making the game more interesting to play. However, it can be difficult, if my efforts are aggressively suffocated and then distorted to something else.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 08:32:37 pm by wcho035 »

Offline krautbernd

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 504
    • View Profile
Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2019, 08:31:06 pm »
How is any of what you're proposing "completely different" from what has been laid out in this thread? How did "cloning stats" suddenly get into this?

Your first request was
Quote
Is it possible to code something like you can subvert or recruit captured aliens to permanent fight for you?

This does not need to be coded. There isn't any need for any "momentum" to be generated in support of such an idea or request because it's already possible in the way I've pointed out. For crying out loud even Meridian told you that it's possible, but that it would be a lot of work.

Would you rather have others make things easier for you instead of having to put that work in yourself? Yeah, I guess I would lack enthusiasm for something like that. Sorry for not supporting that part of your idea.

The second part - the one about captured units (or units in general) switching sides permanentely during battle? Maybe even civilians? That could actually be interesting, but it would be niche use mechanic, comapred to other features that would generate a lot more possible content (and would be simpler to use and design around). And you haven't actually adressed the criticism directed at your idea, instead you're trying to deflect it without actually explaining how my proposal is supposedly completely different from what you had envisioned.


Offline Precentor Apollyon

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
    • View Profile
Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2019, 08:57:39 pm »
Look, I mention this is something can be done in the far future. I am seeding the idea. So let's not get too caught up in it. One day, when the time permits.. this feature might be made available. I ask Meridian if it is possible without breaking the engine. So lets stop here on this okay. Let the others to decide beside yourself, if they want it. This is as far as I will go in replying on this topic.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 09:07:32 pm by wcho035 »

Offline krautbernd

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 504
    • View Profile
Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2019, 09:12:07 pm »
Please explain to me what part your request can't be implemented using existing mechanics.

You haven't even clearly defined what it is you're requesting, but somehow my proposal is "Completely different" from what you're envisioning.

How? What exactely is is that you want? What is it you're having problems with?

Converting aliens (or enemy units in general) to fight for x-com? Doable, using manufacturing. Not doable (and probably never doable as long we don't get repeatable research) using research.

Avoid having to redefine alien/soldier stats? You're going to have to redefine some attributes to be able to handle your "converted" alien units on the basescape in any case. I'm, not sure how openxcom handles player units internally, but you'll probably have to define seperate entries for every alien type you want to treat as an x-com soldier. You'll definitely have to if they're supposed to have different stats (are they? Are they supposed to be randomized?).

Again, I can't tell what your underlying issue is. Is it people questioning your ideas? Is it people asking you to clarify what exactely you're requesting?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 09:30:41 pm by krautbernd »

Offline Precentor Apollyon

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
    • View Profile
Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2019, 09:30:16 pm »
Oh my god.. you are overthinking of unnecessary things.

Listen or read carefully.

I have no problem with anything on the ruleset. You have your say of doing it, but don't shove it down on others of your way.

Again, I am just seeding ideas.. for people to push for this feature in the future. In a battlescape game, they can capture Aliens, use the stats from capture and recruit the alien to fight for xcom.

I want not to produce the whole alien race, just that same alien captured. You are not coding the thing.. I don't know Meridian would do it. I am not pushing for it. This is a feature, someone might want it. I thought of it, put it here, I ask Meridian if it can be possible.

I believe Meridian has a lot on his plate right now. So, I put it here on record... one day. ONE DAY. If people want to do it your way, fine. So be it.

So, relax, let it go and don't over load yourself. I say in the last posting "I am seeding the idea. So let's not get too caught up in it"

This the last I will post on this topic. No more. I have wasted the entire night instead of doing my mod on this.

Offline Nord

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 914
  • The Gate will open... someday.
    • View Profile
Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2019, 09:46:09 pm »
Right now it can be simply done by capturing live alien and then manufacture special unit, using live creature as material.

Offline Precentor Apollyon

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
    • View Profile
Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2019, 09:50:31 pm »
Yes I know, I done it with one of something in my mod. Not the same.

Offline krautbernd

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 504
    • View Profile
Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2019, 09:55:12 pm »
I have no problem with anything on the ruleset. You have your say of doing it, but don't shove it down on others of your way.

Again, I am just seeding ideas.. for people to push for this feature in the future. In a battlescape game, they can capture Aliens, use the stats from capture and recruit the alien to fight for xcom.

I want not to produce the whole alien race, just that same alien captured. You are not coding the thing.. I don't know Meridian would do it. I am not pushing for it. This is a feature, someone might want it. I thought of it, put it here, I ask Meridian if it can be possible.

I believe Meridian has a lot on his plate right now. So, I put it here on record... one day. ONE DAY. If people want to do it your way, fine. So be it.

So, relax, let it go and don't over load yourself. I say in the last posting "I am seeding the idea. So let's not get too caught up in it"

This the last I will post on this topic. No more. I have wasted the entire night instead of doing my mod on this.

I'm discussing your idea and whether or not it has merit. "Seeding ideas" is pointless when you can't even define what exactely it is your envisioning. I told you that what you're requesting can already be done in-game. Others have told you so. The idea doesn't need to "be seeded". It can simply be implemented by the people interested in doing so.

What feature are you pushing for? What is it that you're having problems with that this needs to be re-done and coded seperately? How complex of a change are we talking about if using soldier definitions is apparently a no-no?

You're not doing anyone any favors by floating nebulous ideas that you can't even clearly define, especially not by refusing to clarify what it is you're taking offense with when you're pointed to how this idea can be implemented using existing mechanics.


Offline Yankes

  • Moderator
  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 2142
    • View Profile
Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2019, 01:13:10 am »
Yes I know, I done it with one of something in my mod. Not the same.
Can you prove that is not the same? As krautbernd said not precise request will be never implemented.

If your feature is:
Code: [Select]
Capturing and recruit aliens is not the same as recovering dead aliens and reanimating it. You are recruiting an alien you capture. Using the stats it originally has, at the time of capture. Not using the stats from a pre-made reanimated one.Then no, this will be never implemeted because battlescape is completely separated from geoscape. Every alien become item, this mean only one number `+1` any other data are deleted. To change this you will need rewrite most of code that is responsible for items / aliens.

This is even true for your solders, only limited set of data is transferred back to geospace.

Bottom lane is:
a) Rewrite most of current working code to add some flavors
b) Stick to current mechanics

Only sane solution is b

Offline Precentor Apollyon

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
    • View Profile
Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2019, 03:28:06 am »
I have state my request as precise as possible. Most of you guys understood my request.  Seems like Krautbernd is the only one that’s confused about this posting.

I did say I don’t fully understand of the mechanics behind of this.

Thanks for pointing out the details yankee of why this can’t be done. I was hoping if soldier stats can be transfer back to geoscape the same can be done for Aliens captured.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 03:35:01 am by wcho035 »

Offline krautbernd

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 504
    • View Profile
Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2019, 11:15:55 am »
I have state my request as precise as possible. Most of you guys understood my request.  Seems like Krautbernd is the only one that’s confused about this posting.
No, you haven't. Otherwise you could tell us why the current mechanics aren't satisfactory (apart from part two of your request, which I've already acknowledged). "Most of you guys" is also stretching it a bit. So far it's Meridian, Nord, Yankes and myself who've replied.

I'm a bit apprehensive abut doing this, since I don't like speaking on behalf of other (so please corerct if I'm wrong about this), but Meridian told you that what you're requesting is possible using existing mechanics - it just wouldn't be easy. Nord also told you that it's doable using manufacturing. Yankes is apparently just as confused as I am, since up until now you haven't actually clarified what it is you're missing.

So don't pretend that your request or idea is reasonable when you're not acting in a reasonable way. I've asked you multiple times to clarify what you're missing. Your original request said nothing about "transferring stats". As far as I can tell your problem is not with implementing any of this - you've been told multiple times that this would be possible given the curent mechanics - but doing it a way that makes it 'easier' for you. And you somehow expect (expected?) that rewriting the codebase and soldier handling would be reasonable way to do that.

This is the exact reason why your nebulous "idea seeding" doesn't help anybody. I've seen this multiple times in the past. People think they have a great idea that's just waiting to be implemented because it would make the game so much better and enable us to have much more interesting gameplay. Then they're told that their idea is badly worded and implementing it would mean a rewrite of major gameplay mechanics.

Apparently pointing that out or asking them to actually put their requests or ideas into something thats workable (i.e. an actual concept) upsets some people.

You apparently still don't understand how basic game mechncis work, if this:
Quote
Capturing and recruit aliens is not the same as recovering dead aliens and reanimating it. You are recruiting an alien you capture. Using the stats it originally has, at the time of capture. Not using the stats from a pre-made reanimated one.
is the reason your proposal is completely different from current game mechanics (is this actually what you're complaining about? You still haven't clarified any of this).

It's exactely the same using captured aliens as input. Alien stats aren't radomized. They are fixed. Look at the friggin ruleset.

Those are the stats it originally had, at the time of capture. This totally covers what you are asking for, going by what you've told us so far (i.e. "researching" captured aliens to recruit them). From what I can tell you don't actually have any grasp on what it is you're actually asking for. Which is why I was telling you that throwing out random ideas is bad and doesn't help anybody (see above).
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 11:23:07 am by krautbernd »

Offline Precentor Apollyon

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
    • View Profile
Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2019, 01:17:13 pm »
“I'm a bit apprehensive abut doing this, since I don't like speaking on behalf of other (so please corerct if I'm wrong about this).”

Really? You have shown no reluctance in replying to all my post. It seems otherwise. Your have replied in my apoc faction reputation questions is more on something else rather than the topic raised and you accused me of dishonesty?

“So don't pretend that your request or idea is reasonable when you're not acting in a reasonable way. I've asked you multiple times to clarify what you're missing. Your original request said nothing about "transferring stats". As far as I can tell your problem is not with implementing any of this - you've been told multiple times that this would be possible given the curent mechanics - but doing it a way that makes it 'easier' for you. And you somehow expect (expected?) that rewriting the codebase and soldier handling would be reasonable way to do that.”

How can one be reasonable with your manners in posting stuff on the forum?

The first posting you did on this thread which I started. If you were confused, you should have asked for clarity. What did you write?

“I'm failing to see how this could be useful or make for an interesting gameplay element that doesn't potentially break balancing. "Turning" enemy units is already possible (via recovering/manufacturing/recruiting). "re"-turning 'enemy' (friendly?) units is partly covered by mind control.” 

You already tried to shoot down the idea, just like the other threads. Instead of asking for clarity. Of course I am aware of the bloody ruls that the stats are fixed. I want it done like a soldier transformation originally, into a soldier that has normal stats and can experience growth.

I was asking if the mechanic does allowed that one research then turn the alien into a normal soldier, it can grow but it’s loyalty can’t depend on.  I don’t want to manufacture it, like Yankee had said, it can’t be done. I need someone who understand the game mechanic to reply, you believe you are over qualify for the job. Tell me this, have you coded anything for OXCE? Like C++ and you know the ACTUAL  game mechanic?

If you had, well, I take my hat down and apologise. So far, from what I am reading, you are not at that level.

And who are you with your qualification to tell people if their ideas are bad. Perhaps you want me to do the same to you with what ever creative idea you propose? The level of disrespect you have for others is utterly incredible. Tell you what, I will be watching the forum of what you propose. I will look forward in telling you of bad it is.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 03:25:20 pm by wcho035 »

Offline krautbernd

  • Commander
  • *****
  • Posts: 504
    • View Profile
Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2019, 07:13:29 pm »
Really? You have shown no reluctance in replying to all my post. It seems otherwise. Your have replied in my apoc faction reputation questions is more on something else rather than the topic raised and you accused me of dishonesty?
There's a difference between replying to somebody and citing others in support of your arguments. When I said I am"apprehensive about talking on behalf of other(s)" that's exactely what I meant.

The first posting you did on this thread which I started. If you were confused, you should have asked for clarity [...] Instead of asking for clarity
How should I have known at that point that your initial request wasn't actually what you asked for? Stop trying to misdirect. I've asked you - others have asked you - to clarify why existing mechanics - which enable you to do exactely what you asked for - aren't satifactory. Pointing out that something can be implemented using existing mechanics isn't "shooting down your idea", neither is pointing out that it will lead to issues regarding balancing.

I was asking if the mechanic does allowed that one research then turn the alien into a normal soldier, it can grow but it’s loyalty can’t depend on.  I don’t want to manufacture it, like Yankee had said, it can’t be done. I need someone who understand the game mechanic to reply, you believe you are over qualify for the job.
I already stated that I acknowledge the second part of your request (the loyality part). The difference in-game between manufacturing and researching is cosmetic for the most part (basically the same UI and you're using scientist instead of engineers), so it's kind of strange that this would be enough of a reason to request a code rewrite (since research isn't repeatable, but engineering projects are). The normal course of action would be to find an in-game explanation for this and work around existing constraints. Instead you're treating this like something that would make the entire feature impossible - it doesn't but it requires more work on your part to implement.

Tell me this, have you coded anything for OXCE? Like C++ and you know the ACTUAL  game mechanic?

If you had, well, I take my hat down and apologise. So far, from what I am reading, you are not at that level.
Oh interesting. So I'm only allowed to voice criticism if I've contributed to the codebase? Would "has compiled his own custom versions" also count? Can we also apply that to being allowed to make requests? One request per ten lines of code?

Would you mind pointing out what I've apparently gotten wrong in proposing what I did? Looking at this thread i didn't cite the codebase, apart form the fact that you wouldn't have to do any additional coding if you stick with existing mechanics.

And who are you with your qualification to tell people if their ideas are bad.
My qualification is writing mods, understanding game mechanics and having a go at the codebase. What's yours, exactely?

Perhaps you want me to do the same to you with what ever creative idea you propose?
Please do. I'm open to criticism. I have no problem with explaining precisly what it is I'm requesting when I make a request, clarifying concepts when I've missed something and finding a compromise when something isn't possible exactely how I'd envisioned it. Also I don't pretend to be "simply satisfying my curiosity" when I'm really making a feature request. I don't cite 'the needs of others' to push my own ideas either. If I did, I would hope that people around me would point that out to me, because it's a really shitty way to justify requests (for the same reason that speaking on behalf of others is gnerally frowned upon).
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 07:15:28 pm by krautbernd »

Offline Precentor Apollyon

  • Colonel
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
    • View Profile
Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2019, 08:06:55 pm »
Look, as far as I concern, this thread is dead. I have no interest in continue on. To write more is to fuel more contention and it serve no purpose. Let it be and let where the sleeping dogs lies.