OpenXcom Forum

Modding => OpenXcom Extended => Topic started by: Precentor Apollyon on September 18, 2019, 03:24:04 pm

Title: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Precentor Apollyon on September 18, 2019, 03:24:04 pm
Hi, if you capture the opposing side, maybe be Aliens or humans.

Is it possible to code something like you can subvert or recruit captured aliens to permanent fight for you?

Second question.

Instead of permanent, the capture-and-then-turn-your-side-alien can change side again, if it panicked in battlescape when its morale plummeted?

Just an idea..
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Meridian on September 18, 2019, 03:27:29 pm
Is it possible to code something like you can subvert or recruit captured aliens to permanent fight for you?

Yes.

Instead of permanent, the capture-and-then-turn-your-side-alien can change side again, if it panicked in battlescape when its morale plummeted?

No.
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Precentor Apollyon on September 18, 2019, 03:29:47 pm
Instead of permanent, the capture-and-then-turn-your-side-alien can change side again, if it panicked in battlescape when its morale plummeted?

Hmm.. if the soldier on your side panicked, they turn berserk and attack randomly.

Or if the Aliens mind control your own soldiers. Your soldier will attack your own side.

So it is not possible to tapped into the engine mechanic to mimic the feature above?
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Meridian on September 18, 2019, 03:33:12 pm
Panicking, berserking and mind-controlling don't change the permanent side of a unit.
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Precentor Apollyon on September 18, 2019, 03:37:49 pm
Maybe temporary then in the battlescape, but when the mission finishes, and the unit is not back on your side.. and all your other soldiers is dead. It is for your imagination to decide if the alien or recruited soldier is lost permanently.

So to rephrase the question. If the enemy unit your capture and recruited, panicked in the battlescape, can it be "mind controlled" to fight on the enemy side permanently for the duration of the battle?

Why I ask of this is, if you recruit a turncoat, their loyalty is always questionable. If this feature is available one day, it make the whole capture the alien, convert it and never to trust it.. more interesting. Capture aliens are more prone or twice as vulnerable at panicking from low morale than normal units.
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Meridian on September 18, 2019, 03:53:14 pm
So to rephrase the question. If the enemy unit your capture and recruited, panicked in the battlescape, can it be "mind controlled" to fight on the enemy side permanently for the duration of the battle?

Not by ruleset.
Maybe by some creative scripting...
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Precentor Apollyon on September 18, 2019, 03:56:02 pm
Okay. thanks for answering. Again, I propose this feature. I lay this on the table..so if the others find my idea interesting.. they could push more for it. Maybe you can give it a go.
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: krautbernd on September 18, 2019, 04:25:03 pm
I'm failing to see how this could be useful or make for an interesting gameplay element that doesn't potentially break balancing. "Turning" enemy units is already possible (via recovering/manufacturing/recruiting). "re"-turning 'enemy' (friendly?) units is partly covered by mind control.
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Precentor Apollyon on September 18, 2019, 04:54:07 pm
Capturing and recruit aliens is not the same as recovering dead aliens and reanimating it. You are recruiting an alien you capture. Using the stats it originally has, at the time of capture. Not using the stats from a pre-made reanimated one.

The fun is, you try to capture the aliens in mission you want in your team. Research it and then, put it in your team. Mind controlling enemy alien only exist in the current mission you play, it does not carry over to the next mission, nor does it's stats grow from doing more missions. Also capturing aliens is a lot harder than killing one and then uses its dead body to reanimate it. Think of a prize you capture and using on your side. It is about the salvage.. you find the satisfaction in capturing and reusing the prize you capture against the enemy.

Also...where is the fun in capturing aliens, after all the research is done with them? I am trying to make the research mechanic more useful in the game, after the alien type is researched.

Plus if you want to go the manufacture/recovering and recruiting way. You have to create EVERY type of alien you want to reanimate or recruit in your ruleset coding. Turning captured aliens.. you use the current alien and its current stats you capture. I don't know how Merdian would code this. I don't believe you need to build a template for all and every alien you captured and wanting to recruit to be on your side.

As for breaking balancing, I did mention the alien is twice as easy to panic in a battlefield mission. So, you have to make sure its morale is always on top. If it panicked, you lose it for the rest of the mission.
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Precentor Apollyon on September 18, 2019, 05:02:07 pm
Also the "research" in converting the Alien to your side should hava a chance of failure. It would make the outcome more anticipating..
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: krautbernd on September 18, 2019, 06:19:40 pm
Capturing and recruit aliens is not the same as recovering dead aliens and reanimating it. You are recruiting an alien you capture. Using the stats it originally has, at the time of capture. Not using the stats from a pre-made reanimated one.
You can use live aliens, i.e. the ones you actually captured.

The fun is, you try to capture the aliens in mission you want in your team. Research it and then, put it in your team.
Research topics are one-off, you can't have recurring research topics. All of this could be implemented - without any additional work - when you use manufacturing projects for this.

Also...where is the fun in capturing aliens, after all the research is done with them? I am trying to make the research mechanic more useful in the game, after the alien type is researched.
The research mechanic is already useful for doing research. You're trying to build a strawman argument around that. This isn't about research, it's about you wanting to have alien soldiers.

Plus if you want to go the manufacture/recovering and recruiting way. You have to create EVERY type of alien you want to reanimate or recruit in your ruleset coding. Turning captured aliens.. you use the current alien and its current stats you capture.
Which means it's actually doable using the current mechanics. No additional coding needed, beside the work you yourself would have to put into this.

As for breaking balancing, I did mention the alien is twice as easy to panic in a battlefield mission. So, you have to make sure its morale is always on top. If it panicked, you lose it for the rest of the mission.
You'd still be able to 'recruit' top notch 'soldiers' with potentially much higher reactions/tu/strength than you'd be able to recruit normally and which would take ages to train.

Also the "research" in converting the Alien to your side should hava a chance of failure. It would make the outcome more anticipating..
Random manufacturing results are already possible. Again, you can already implement the majority of what you're requesting. But apparently that would be too much of a hassle?
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Precentor Apollyon on September 18, 2019, 06:37:57 pm
You can use live aliens, i.e. the ones you actually captured.

Alright you have me there. Maybe you can give me a hint of how this is coded in the ruleset? If you can tell me the way, I take back all I said.

Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: krautbernd on September 18, 2019, 06:45:38 pm
You can use live aliens, i.e. the ones you actually captured.

Alright you have me there. Maybe you can give me a hint of how this is coded in the ruleset? If you can tell me the way, I take back all I said.
->ruleset nightly (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Ruleset_Reference_Nightly_(OpenXcom)#Manufacture) 'spawnedPersonType' under manufacturing. Use live alien of your choice as input and "converted alien of your choice" soldier type as your output.
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Precentor Apollyon on September 18, 2019, 06:58:36 pm
I am aware of such a feature in manufacturing.  As far as I understand the usage of this feature, you need to use the soldier generation code from soldier.rul to generate the soldier you want in your team.

It is like hiring. However, this is not converting a capture alien to your own side.

You have to create a soldier generation code in soldier.rul for EACH alien type you need to capture.

Also the stats are not the same from what you originally capture. If I am wrong, then you correct me.
 
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Meridian on September 18, 2019, 07:21:53 pm
It is like hiring. However, this is not converting a capture alien to your own side.
You have to create a soldier generation code in soldier.rul for EACH alien type you need to capture.
Also the stats are not the same from what you originally capture. If I am wrong, then you correct me.

Nobody said it's easy.
Yes, you need to define a lot of soldiers and you need to define same stats for them.
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: krautbernd on September 18, 2019, 07:37:01 pm
I am aware of such a feature in manufacturing.  As far as I understand the usage of this feature, you need to use the soldier generation code from soldier.rul to generate the soldier you want in your team.

It is like hiring. However, this is not converting a capture alien to your own side.
Only you're not hiring aliens. You're producing them. I don't see how this any different from what you're proposing, except instead of 'researching' the alien you're 'manufacturing' a converted unit. It's essentially what you're asking for, but requires more work on your part to implement.

You have to create a soldier generation code in soldier.rul for EACH alien type you need to capture.
You'd probably have to do that anyway since it's your unit and is handled as such in the basescape. You'd probably have to have separate armor definitions as well, or at least modify existing ones (to include customArmorPreviewIndex for example).

Also the stats are not the same from what you originally capture. If I am wrong, then you correct me.
I'm not sure I follow - what are you asking me to correct? Your proposal was that x-com should be able to convert alien units. You're asking for those units to be essentially aliens on x-com's side. If they aren't supposed to have the same stats you have to define them as separate soldier types from scratch anyway, see above. If you don't want to have to create separate definitions you're asking for them to have the same stats, aren't you?
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Precentor Apollyon on September 18, 2019, 08:07:40 pm
Thanks Meridian. The original topic was transferring stats from capture aliens to one you command. Something like cloning from soldier transformation. You clone the stats from the capture alien into a new alien.

Again, I don't know how you may implement it, I am not pushing it. I am just thinking it, I thought of the idea, I lay it on the table. This is what this topic is about. It might inspire or generate momentum for it.

I do appreciate the solution that was pointed out of how it can be done using the current coding and rules available but it is very different from what I have in mind. Completely different. I want to capture and turn, not capture and producing.

Anyway, thanks you krautbernd for coming up with a creative way of trying make it happen. However, it does not achieve the same objective...or the spirit of the topic. I do applaud of his enthusiasm in helping but I am appalled by his lack of enthusiasm and deviating from the original topic I had originally raised.

I like giving out ideas, so I can inspire others in making the game more interesting to play. However, it can be difficult, if my efforts are aggressively suffocated and then distorted to something else.
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: krautbernd on September 18, 2019, 08:31:06 pm
How is any of what you're proposing "completely different" from what has been laid out in this thread? How did "cloning stats" suddenly get into this?

Your first request was
Quote
Is it possible to code something like you can subvert or recruit captured aliens to permanent fight for you?

This does not need to be coded. There isn't any need for any "momentum" to be generated in support of such an idea or request because it's already possible in the way I've pointed out. For crying out loud even Meridian told you that it's possible, but that it would be a lot of work.

Would you rather have others make things easier for you instead of having to put that work in yourself? Yeah, I guess I would lack enthusiasm for something like that. Sorry for not supporting that part of your idea.

The second part - the one about captured units (or units in general) switching sides permanentely during battle? Maybe even civilians? That could actually be interesting, but it would be niche use mechanic, comapred to other features that would generate a lot more possible content (and would be simpler to use and design around). And you haven't actually adressed the criticism directed at your idea, instead you're trying to deflect it without actually explaining how my proposal is supposedly completely different from what you had envisioned.

Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Precentor Apollyon on September 18, 2019, 08:57:39 pm
Look, I mention this is something can be done in the far future. I am seeding the idea. So let's not get too caught up in it. One day, when the time permits.. this feature might be made available. I ask Meridian if it is possible without breaking the engine. So lets stop here on this okay. Let the others to decide beside yourself, if they want it. This is as far as I will go in replying on this topic.
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: krautbernd on September 18, 2019, 09:12:07 pm
Please explain to me what part your request can't be implemented using existing mechanics.

You haven't even clearly defined what it is you're requesting, but somehow my proposal is "Completely different" from what you're envisioning.

How? What exactely is is that you want? What is it you're having problems with?

Converting aliens (or enemy units in general) to fight for x-com? Doable, using manufacturing. Not doable (and probably never doable as long we don't get repeatable research) using research.

Avoid having to redefine alien/soldier stats? You're going to have to redefine some attributes to be able to handle your "converted" alien units on the basescape in any case. I'm, not sure how openxcom handles player units internally, but you'll probably have to define seperate entries for every alien type you want to treat as an x-com soldier. You'll definitely have to if they're supposed to have different stats (are they? Are they supposed to be randomized?).

Again, I can't tell what your underlying issue is. Is it people questioning your ideas? Is it people asking you to clarify what exactely you're requesting?
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Precentor Apollyon on September 18, 2019, 09:30:16 pm
Oh my god.. you are overthinking of unnecessary things.

Listen or read carefully.

I have no problem with anything on the ruleset. You have your say of doing it, but don't shove it down on others of your way.

Again, I am just seeding ideas.. for people to push for this feature in the future. In a battlescape game, they can capture Aliens, use the stats from capture and recruit the alien to fight for xcom.

I want not to produce the whole alien race, just that same alien captured. You are not coding the thing.. I don't know Meridian would do it. I am not pushing for it. This is a feature, someone might want it. I thought of it, put it here, I ask Meridian if it can be possible.

I believe Meridian has a lot on his plate right now. So, I put it here on record... one day. ONE DAY. If people want to do it your way, fine. So be it.

So, relax, let it go and don't over load yourself. I say in the last posting "I am seeding the idea. So let's not get too caught up in it"

This the last I will post on this topic. No more. I have wasted the entire night instead of doing my mod on this.
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Nord on September 18, 2019, 09:46:09 pm
Right now it can be simply done by capturing live alien and then manufacture special unit, using live creature as material.
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Precentor Apollyon on September 18, 2019, 09:50:31 pm
Yes I know, I done it with one of something in my mod. Not the same.
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: krautbernd on September 18, 2019, 09:55:12 pm
I have no problem with anything on the ruleset. You have your say of doing it, but don't shove it down on others of your way.

Again, I am just seeding ideas.. for people to push for this feature in the future. In a battlescape game, they can capture Aliens, use the stats from capture and recruit the alien to fight for xcom.

I want not to produce the whole alien race, just that same alien captured. You are not coding the thing.. I don't know Meridian would do it. I am not pushing for it. This is a feature, someone might want it. I thought of it, put it here, I ask Meridian if it can be possible.

I believe Meridian has a lot on his plate right now. So, I put it here on record... one day. ONE DAY. If people want to do it your way, fine. So be it.

So, relax, let it go and don't over load yourself. I say in the last posting "I am seeding the idea. So let's not get too caught up in it"

This the last I will post on this topic. No more. I have wasted the entire night instead of doing my mod on this.

I'm discussing your idea and whether or not it has merit. "Seeding ideas" is pointless when you can't even define what exactely it is your envisioning. I told you that what you're requesting can already be done in-game. Others have told you so. The idea doesn't need to "be seeded". It can simply be implemented by the people interested in doing so.

What feature are you pushing for? What is it that you're having problems with that this needs to be re-done and coded seperately? How complex of a change are we talking about if using soldier definitions is apparently a no-no?

You're not doing anyone any favors by floating nebulous ideas that you can't even clearly define, especially not by refusing to clarify what it is you're taking offense with when you're pointed to how this idea can be implemented using existing mechanics.

Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Yankes on September 19, 2019, 01:13:10 am
Yes I know, I done it with one of something in my mod. Not the same.
Can you prove that is not the same? As krautbernd said not precise request will be never implemented.

If your feature is:
Code: [Select]
Capturing and recruit aliens is not the same as recovering dead aliens and reanimating it. You are recruiting an alien you capture. Using the stats it originally has, at the time of capture. Not using the stats from a pre-made reanimated one.Then no, this will be never implemeted because battlescape is completely separated from geoscape. Every alien become item, this mean only one number `+1` any other data are deleted. To change this you will need rewrite most of code that is responsible for items / aliens.

This is even true for your solders, only limited set of data is transferred back to geospace.

Bottom lane is:
a) Rewrite most of current working code to add some flavors
b) Stick to current mechanics

Only sane solution is b
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Precentor Apollyon on September 19, 2019, 03:28:06 am
I have state my request as precise as possible. Most of you guys understood my request.  Seems like Krautbernd is the only one that’s confused about this posting.

I did say I don’t fully understand of the mechanics behind of this.

Thanks for pointing out the details yankee of why this can’t be done. I was hoping if soldier stats can be transfer back to geoscape the same can be done for Aliens captured.
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: krautbernd on September 19, 2019, 11:15:55 am
I have state my request as precise as possible. Most of you guys understood my request.  Seems like Krautbernd is the only one that’s confused about this posting.
No, you haven't. Otherwise you could tell us why the current mechanics aren't satisfactory (apart from part two of your request, which I've already acknowledged). "Most of you guys" is also stretching it a bit. So far it's Meridian, Nord, Yankes and myself who've replied.

I'm a bit apprehensive abut doing this, since I don't like speaking on behalf of other (so please corerct if I'm wrong about this), but Meridian told you that what you're requesting is possible using existing mechanics - it just wouldn't be easy. Nord also told you that it's doable using manufacturing. Yankes is apparently just as confused as I am, since up until now you haven't actually clarified what it is you're missing.

So don't pretend that your request or idea is reasonable when you're not acting in a reasonable way. I've asked you multiple times to clarify what you're missing. Your original request said nothing about "transferring stats". As far as I can tell your problem is not with implementing any of this - you've been told multiple times that this would be possible given the curent mechanics - but doing it a way that makes it 'easier' for you. And you somehow expect (expected?) that rewriting the codebase and soldier handling would be reasonable way to do that.

This is the exact reason why your nebulous "idea seeding" doesn't help anybody. I've seen this multiple times in the past. People think they have a great idea that's just waiting to be implemented because it would make the game so much better and enable us to have much more interesting gameplay. Then they're told that their idea is badly worded and implementing it would mean a rewrite of major gameplay mechanics.

Apparently pointing that out or asking them to actually put their requests or ideas into something thats workable (i.e. an actual concept) upsets some people.

You apparently still don't understand how basic game mechncis work, if this:
Quote
Capturing and recruit aliens is not the same as recovering dead aliens and reanimating it. You are recruiting an alien you capture. Using the stats it originally has, at the time of capture. Not using the stats from a pre-made reanimated one.
is the reason your proposal is completely different from current game mechanics (is this actually what you're complaining about? You still haven't clarified any of this).

It's exactely the same using captured aliens as input. Alien stats aren't radomized. They are fixed. Look at the friggin ruleset.

Those are the stats it originally had, at the time of capture. This totally covers what you are asking for, going by what you've told us so far (i.e. "researching" captured aliens to recruit them). From what I can tell you don't actually have any grasp on what it is you're actually asking for. Which is why I was telling you that throwing out random ideas is bad and doesn't help anybody (see above).
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Precentor Apollyon on September 19, 2019, 01:17:13 pm
“I'm a bit apprehensive abut doing this, since I don't like speaking on behalf of other (so please corerct if I'm wrong about this).”

Really? You have shown no reluctance in replying to all my post. It seems otherwise. Your have replied in my apoc faction reputation questions is more on something else rather than the topic raised and you accused me of dishonesty?

“So don't pretend that your request or idea is reasonable when you're not acting in a reasonable way. I've asked you multiple times to clarify what you're missing. Your original request said nothing about "transferring stats". As far as I can tell your problem is not with implementing any of this - you've been told multiple times that this would be possible given the curent mechanics - but doing it a way that makes it 'easier' for you. And you somehow expect (expected?) that rewriting the codebase and soldier handling would be reasonable way to do that.”

How can one be reasonable with your manners in posting stuff on the forum?

The first posting you did on this thread which I started. If you were confused, you should have asked for clarity. What did you write?

“I'm failing to see how this could be useful or make for an interesting gameplay element that doesn't potentially break balancing. "Turning" enemy units is already possible (via recovering/manufacturing/recruiting). "re"-turning 'enemy' (friendly?) units is partly covered by mind control.” 

You already tried to shoot down the idea, just like the other threads. Instead of asking for clarity. Of course I am aware of the bloody ruls that the stats are fixed. I want it done like a soldier transformation originally, into a soldier that has normal stats and can experience growth.

I was asking if the mechanic does allowed that one research then turn the alien into a normal soldier, it can grow but it’s loyalty can’t depend on.  I don’t want to manufacture it, like Yankee had said, it can’t be done. I need someone who understand the game mechanic to reply, you believe you are over qualify for the job. Tell me this, have you coded anything for OXCE? Like C++ and you know the ACTUAL  game mechanic?

If you had, well, I take my hat down and apologise. So far, from what I am reading, you are not at that level.

And who are you with your qualification to tell people if their ideas are bad. Perhaps you want me to do the same to you with what ever creative idea you propose? The level of disrespect you have for others is utterly incredible. Tell you what, I will be watching the forum of what you propose. I will look forward in telling you of bad it is.
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: krautbernd on September 20, 2019, 07:13:29 pm
Really? You have shown no reluctance in replying to all my post. It seems otherwise. Your have replied in my apoc faction reputation questions is more on something else rather than the topic raised and you accused me of dishonesty?
There's a difference between replying to somebody and citing others in support of your arguments. When I said I am"apprehensive about talking on behalf of other(s)" that's exactely what I meant.

The first posting you did on this thread which I started. If you were confused, you should have asked for clarity [...] Instead of asking for clarity
How should I have known at that point that your initial request wasn't actually what you asked for? Stop trying to misdirect. I've asked you - others have asked you - to clarify why existing mechanics - which enable you to do exactely what you asked for - aren't satifactory. Pointing out that something can be implemented using existing mechanics isn't "shooting down your idea", neither is pointing out that it will lead to issues regarding balancing.

I was asking if the mechanic does allowed that one research then turn the alien into a normal soldier, it can grow but it’s loyalty can’t depend on.  I don’t want to manufacture it, like Yankee had said, it can’t be done. I need someone who understand the game mechanic to reply, you believe you are over qualify for the job.
I already stated that I acknowledge the second part of your request (the loyality part). The difference in-game between manufacturing and researching is cosmetic for the most part (basically the same UI and you're using scientist instead of engineers), so it's kind of strange that this would be enough of a reason to request a code rewrite (since research isn't repeatable, but engineering projects are). The normal course of action would be to find an in-game explanation for this and work around existing constraints. Instead you're treating this like something that would make the entire feature impossible - it doesn't but it requires more work on your part to implement.

Tell me this, have you coded anything for OXCE? Like C++ and you know the ACTUAL  game mechanic?

If you had, well, I take my hat down and apologise. So far, from what I am reading, you are not at that level.
Oh interesting. So I'm only allowed to voice criticism if I've contributed to the codebase? Would "has compiled his own custom versions" also count? Can we also apply that to being allowed to make requests? One request per ten lines of code?

Would you mind pointing out what I've apparently gotten wrong in proposing what I did? Looking at this thread i didn't cite the codebase, apart form the fact that you wouldn't have to do any additional coding if you stick with existing mechanics.

And who are you with your qualification to tell people if their ideas are bad.
My qualification is writing mods, understanding game mechanics and having a go at the codebase. What's yours, exactely?

Perhaps you want me to do the same to you with what ever creative idea you propose?
Please do. I'm open to criticism. I have no problem with explaining precisly what it is I'm requesting when I make a request, clarifying concepts when I've missed something and finding a compromise when something isn't possible exactely how I'd envisioned it. Also I don't pretend to be "simply satisfying my curiosity" when I'm really making a feature request. I don't cite 'the needs of others' to push my own ideas either. If I did, I would hope that people around me would point that out to me, because it's a really shitty way to justify requests (for the same reason that speaking on behalf of others is gnerally frowned upon).
Title: Re: Capturable Aliens.. converted to your side.
Post by: Precentor Apollyon on September 20, 2019, 08:06:55 pm
Look, as far as I concern, this thread is dead. I have no interest in continue on. To write more is to fuel more contention and it serve no purpose. Let it be and let where the sleeping dogs lies.