Early gun balance

[Martin]

Wrong, your European is showing.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2015/05/economist-explains-22

But I suspect we don’t have as many Swat teams merely because my country’s military industrial complex consists of truck manufacturer, cheap pistol/sporting rifle factory and used military hardware mafia, so they don’t have much pull in the goverment.

[The Reaver of Darkness]

I'm a bit late to the thread but here's my one cent:

All the guns are a little overwhelming early on. I see use for having a nice lineup, and the saving grace was availability: there were only a few to choose from at first so I could compare them with each other. It seemed really silly to me to research basic firearms, so instead I would have liked it better if the UFOPedia shows only the very small selection you start with plus maybe a small number of more advanced weapons to give you some sneak peeks, then your UFOPedia just automatically fills out as you stumble across more weapons, if that's possible. Generic gun stats should be available to the public, I don't see why these agents can't immediately identify the gun and collect info on its specs.

[niculinux]

I agree: researching weapons to make them avaiable  does not make sense, would be nice instead to unlock these by researching proper topics like "non standard weapons" topic.

But on the other hand it is vital for gameplay to encourage player to engage enemies hoping to recober better weaponry so in the end it may be fone as it is, provised that the unlocking by research is morr realistic. ☺

[Solarius Scorch]

then your UFOPedia just automatically fills out as you stumble across more weapons, if that's possible.

No, that's completely impossible, and I don't think it's even doable without serious code rewriting. That's why it works as it does.

Generic gun stats should be available to the public, I don't see why these agents can't immediately identify the gun and collect info on its specs.

Nobody said otherwise.

[ohartenstein23]

Agents are busy with other things, that's the researchers' work to spend a day collecting the info and turning it into the pedia format for you

[AsukaLangleyfag]

A little bit of gun-nut stuff here:
why is 9x19 guns are so underpowered? because if they all use 9x19, they should have the same damage value, even the hk mp5 (it's 25 damage makes literally any other 9x19 gun worthless). And 9x18 is actually worse in any way (lighter bullet, lower energy), even russian switched to the 9x19.
next, BlackOps SMG listed to use 5.8mm while it's clearly an MP7 that uses 4.6x30
next, mosin and bolt action rifle are both 30 damage, while they are clearly 7.62x54R (at least mosin is, because bolt action rifle is probably something british .303 or .30-06 Springfield) and that is a real rifle round like 7.62 Nato, that is also used in PKM, while for some reason SKS, Groza, AKSU-74 (why 74, they have AKM with folded stock (AKMS) that also uses 7.62x39 unlike AKSU-74 that fits because AKM is modernized version of AK-47) and AK-47 have the same damage value, while 7.62x39 is a much less powerful cartridge (it's an intermidiate one, so it's intended). Nato guns have magical 10% armor penetration while the real 5.56 nato is less powerful compared to the 7.62x39 and even 7.62x54R with 7.62 NATO. Same with SVD as it uses 7.62x54R.
as for groza, current description is so bullshit (also the fact that it's AIMS BETTER is not really accurate, it was found to have harder aim, but it should have better aim/less time units in auto due of balance created by bull-pup scheme and the later can be the same with all bull-pup weapons) i think you should start it with "this AKS-74U-based weapon", because it's not really an AK replacement (also it's a variant of OTs-12 Tiss), it's a gun for Spetsnaz, in 7.62x39 configuration.
As for nato guns, they kinda look weirdly balanced (m16 has the best aimed accuracy while having only aperture while it should have the best auto (x3) bursts (that's what stoner wanted it to be, really), FAMAS has the same timeunits for bursts as other rifles while having better handling due of being a bull-pup and having a higher rate of fire and also the same thing as with m16, it has aperture sights), same thing about aperture sights and optics could be said about rifles as well. Also older rifles should have less accuracy on aim due of them not having more advanced optics and the og optics are probably gone bad too due of age.

[HT]

Honestly, Solarius had to do compromises to balance these guns, seeing that 100% realism is not necessary when most of the early guns will be thrown away and forgotten and soon as you get access to Black Ops stuff and beyond.

[Solarius Scorch]

Human Traitor is right, but this is not everything.

"why is 9x19 guns are so underpowered?" - Why are Kalashnikovs shit in every American game?

"BlackOps SMG listed to use 5.8mm while it's clearly an MP7" - it's not an MP7 (whatever that is).

"mosin and bolt action rifle are both 30 damage" - check again. You clearly don't know the mechanics. Check again the INFO section.

"while for some reason SKS, Groza, AKSU-74 (why 74, they have AKM with folded stock (AKMS) that also uses 7.62x39 unlike AKSU-74 that fits because AKM is modernized version of AK-47) and AK-47 have the same damage value, while 7.62x39 is a much less powerful cartridge (it's an intermidiate one, so it's intended). Nato guns have magical 10% armor penetration while the real 5.56 nato is less powerful compared to the 7.62x39 and even 7.62x54R with 7.62 NATO. Same with SVD as it uses 7.62x54R." - These are never clear cut in games, but I ran it against many qualified nitpickers and the consensus was it was good enough. Also remember that many weapon types have a broad range of ammo types, so I had to pick something that worked well.

"as for groza, current description is so bullshit (also the fact that it's AIMS BETTER is not really accurate, it was found to have harder aim, but it should have better aim/less time units in auto due of balance created by bull-pup scheme and the later can be the same with all bull-pup weapons) i think you should start it with "this AKS-74U-based weapon", because it's not really an AK replacement (also it's a variant of OTs-12 Tiss), it's a gun for Spetsnaz, in 7.62x39 configuration." - I based it on Groza in ACM Mod (for UFO Aftershock). Sorry but I trust Okim more.

"As for nato guns, they kinda look weirdly balanced (m16 has the best aimed accuracy while having only aperture while it should have the best auto (x3) bursts (that's what stoner wanted it to be, really), FAMAS has the same timeunits for bursts as other rifles while having better handling due of being a bull-pup and having a higher rate of fire and also the same thing as with m16, it has aperture sights), same thing about aperture sights and optics could be said about rifles as well. Also older rifles should have less accuracy on aim due of them not having more advanced optics and the og optics are probably gone bad too due of age." - I've heard bazillion of opinions, often radically different, so I stopped giving a shit.

The truth is, I don't know much about real life weapons (or care), so my ambitions here are limited to not be blatantly stupid. Which works fairly well by now.

Also, gotta say, putting this in a bug thread was pretty cheeky...

[mumble]

I do think the blackops rifle accuracy could be higher than 80 : not a single rifle, except possibly a few obscure nato rifles, have such low aimed shot accuracy (80).

Magnums, hunting rifles, and most other rifles are at LEAST 90 aimed, and blackops is supposed to the pinnacle of engineering, yet its accuracy isn't any better than an MP5?.... Something around 90 or 95 would make sense, would still have a miss chance (even 120 can miss especially with low skill).

I understand its a more compact, and less built for accuracy, but its still a rifle, and in skilled hands, should hit on point.

I'd even be ok with 95 accuracy and a 20 tile drop off, but currently it feels like more of a heavy SMG than a rifle, but, currently its performance just doesn't match the oh so "prestigious" blackops name..

[Solarius Scorch]

I have already buffed snap accuracy on the BlackOps Rifle for the next release, so don't worry.

[The Reaver of Darkness]

then your UFOPedia just automatically fills out as you stumble across more weapons, if that's possible.

No, that's completely impossible, and I don't think it's even doable without serious code rewriting. That's why it works as it does.

I was doing some modding and I toyed with a solution that I am liking so far: you can hide multiple items away from the UFOPedia, purchase, sell, and manufacture lists by wrapping them together into one research project. But if it's a thing you shouldn't have to "research", you can disguise it by calling it "operative work" and give it a small cost, basically indicating that the work performed by the scientists on the job is more logistical than inventive. As an example, in my upcoming mod there is a research project called 'Soldier Screening', and there is a UFOPedia entry (in my new section titled Research Project Information) which you can read before researching it, that indicates what you get from it and why the job must be done to get this access. In terms of gameplay, the player can opt to leave it in the research list to prevent purchase list bloat in the number of types of soldiers they can hire, and the UFOPedia entry is non-intrusive but serves to help the player commander decide if it is worth allocating scientists to unlock.


As a working example for what you could do in X-Com Files:
Every gun recovered can be researched instantly: you can allocate one scientist to have it done that night, or you can sell the guns to get them off your research list. Alternatively, there could be an innocuous-looking item hiding way down at the bottom of the purchase list which you can buy for very cheap, which can be researched to unlock access to all of the guns--for those commanders who do not wish to wait for them to appear in missions. This item could be described in a UFOPedia entry in that section that gives introductions to the commander.

I wish to credit some mod authors for inspiring me to come up with these ideas: Robin, Dioxine, Solarius Scorch, and possibly others

A little bit of gun-nut stuff here:
why is 9x19 guns are so underpowered? because if they all use 9x19, they should have the same damage value,

Bullet striking power is a factor of bullet mass, powder mass, and barrel length (in addition to trajectory factors which do not vary by much between guns). You should know this, gun nut.

[mumble]

Its not snap shot, its aimed shot : aimed shot is pitiful in all but the hands of the elite.

[The Reaver of Darkness]

Its not snap shot, its aimed shot : aimed shot is pitiful in all but the hands of the elite.

Are you using it with UFOExtender Accuracy? I noticed that most of the weapons had a very small difference in accuracy between snap and aimed shots. The purpose of this is to make snap shots pretty accurate at close range, while aimed shots primarily shine at long range. If you don't use UFOExtender Accuracy, then the aimed shots are pretty underpowered.

[Sarissofoi]

Hello Guys
I am new here so please don't be too rough with me. I just started playing with this great mod and have a tons of fun.
But things were bothering me:
-mostly pistols being really really great compared to anything else early.
OK. I admit that my only game is on veteran and I just reached Promotion II after stalling game as long as I can so maybe I am playing it wrong but pistols - especially Colt but Beretta/Glock also are really great  not only on close distance but are much better on mid/long that most off the submachine guns and rifles. To be honest I was using Colt mainly and then replaced it with Socom pistol. Its very efficient at shooting and hitting anything at close and mid range(and mid range is really good).
I switched to MP5 but its worse and to Groza but its not really better outside of auto. MP5 is actually worse at distance.
I was tried some other guns but outside of amazing Mosin and Nitro most early rifles suck(they have low damage and can barely hit something at longer range).
I was wondering why?
So I checked items_XCOMFILES.rul. Your mod also have this amazing option to check weapons stats for nerds in ufopedia.
It looks like most(if not all) pistols have only aimRange. Other guns usually get aim/snap/autoRange if they have it. Shotguns also get dropoff stat. Some rifles or sniper rifles do not have aimRange or snapRange. So I am not a specialist in modding or anything and maybe its handled somewhere else but doesn't that mean that if there is no Range stat for a weapon that its Range=infinite? Or at last equal to Aim?
That would explain why pistols are so accurate and better at hitting things. Not only because you can shoot it more often and their base accuracy is great but also because their snapRange is equall to aimRange or infinite?

I am talking about efficiency of the snap shots mainly.

[ohartenstein23]

Hi and welcome to the forums Sarissofoi! While it's great that you r first instinct was to dive deeper for information, you were missing a crucial bit of information on these values in the rulesets; each of these values, aimRange, snapRange, an autoRange, has a default value hard-coded into the engine. Actually every possible thing you can write in the ruleset has a default value, but until recently with Stats for Nerds you'd only know these defaults if you read the source code. In Stats for Nerds, there's a 'Default' button that will show you all of these values that are usually hidden because the ruleset didn't change them.  For example, if the ruleset doesn't change it, snapRange is 15; most of the rifles/SMGs you saw that changed this in ruleset were actually an increase in effective snap shot range. Aimed shot range is usually assumed to be 'infinite,' but really this just has to be larger than any map in the game. The default for aimRange is 200, so the pistols are limited in their maximum effective range compared to most rifles with an aimed shot. Hope this helps!