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Author Topic: Early gun balance  (Read 20160 times)

Offline WaldoTheRanger

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #75 on: August 18, 2020, 08:18:25 am »
Is this the place to comment on balance?
In case it is, I'll leave this here. If not I'll copy it over to the other thread and delete this comment.

If you ever decide to re-balance all the weapones again, it would be nice to consider that assault rifles and things like the hunting rifle would do damage comparable to things like the magnum, because even though it's a smaller bullet, the muzzle velocity is much greater.
I know you have to balance it against the higher capacity and range of rifles, but I think even with comparable damage things like the magnum would still fill the role of close quarters and side arm pretty well, because of the faster firing speed.

as it relates to actual gameplay, (not just my realism fetish), it's quite frustrating to get all the way to july or august, finally have a enough ammo for your AKs and M16s to field them, just for basic goons with kevlar to regularly eat 3 rounds to the face before going down. (higher velocity shreds kevlar as well. just a thing)

Again, I know you just rebalanced everything already, so I'm not asking you to do it again just to satisfy my realism craze, but if/when you do eventually do it again, it would be nice for that to be considered.

I'm also basing this off of 1.4, not the github, so I don't know what you've already done there. just wanted to get this thought out of my brain before I go to bed. my apologies if you've already considered it.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Bugs, crashes, typos & bad taste
« Reply #76 on: August 18, 2020, 04:04:40 pm »
If you ever decide to re-balance all the weapones again, it would be nice to consider that assault rifles and things like the hunting rifle would do damage comparable to things like the magnum, because even though it's a smaller bullet, the muzzle velocity is much greater.
I know you have to balance it against the higher capacity and range of rifles, but I think even with comparable damage things like the magnum would still fill the role of close quarters and side arm pretty well, because of the faster firing speed.

This matter is very complicated and frankly, subject to many arguments even between our local gun enthusiasts. In short, your proposed solution is... I think not wrong, but I don't think it's exactly right either. I mean, I don't think it would be more realistic than what we have now. Real life wounds are simply nothing like presented in the X-Com mechanics, there is no HP etc. We have to somehow translate apples to oranges here, and since no solution will be "realistic", we're going with "realistic enough to defend itself as a game", while also remaining fun as a game. So this is what emerged from this position.

If I wanted to make it more realistic, there's one thing I could do: introduce separate damage types for "soft" bullets and "hard" bullets, which roughly coresponds to the pistol/rifle distinction. Still, I think it would be too much hair splitting in a game with bullets and lasers and acid and alien larvae inserted with an ovipositor.

Again, I know you just rebalanced everything already, so I'm not asking you to do it again just to satisfy my realism craze, but if/when you do eventually do it again, it would be nice for that to be considered.

It's been considered already. It's not like the system is perfect. But I think it's appropriate for what it's supposed to do.

I'm also basing this off of 1.4, not the github, so I don't know what you've already done there. just wanted to get this thought out of my brain before I go to bed. my apologies if you've already considered it.

I made some changes in the GitHub version, but nothing related to bullet power.
(I recommend using the GitHub version anyway, I fixed a number of issues with realism... Like AK bullets.)

Offline WaldoTheRanger

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Re: Early gun balance
« Reply #77 on: August 18, 2020, 05:04:25 pm »
Guess that's about what I should have expected. Should have assumed you'd already had gun nuts try to school you after 4 years of doing this :)
My main thing was the part about how it's frustrating for Assault rifles to not do anything against mid-late 97 cultists, but I'll check the hub before commenting again about that.

Offline anothrgamer1234

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Re: Early gun balance
« Reply #78 on: August 18, 2020, 07:08:08 pm »
The flare gun's main purpose is to set fires and light up dark areas, hitting things with it is really a bonus although its accuracy isn't quite as bad as it looks. The Minebeo's real draw is that it's concealable and can be fired with one hand at full accuracy- plus, it fits in a quick draw slot.

For what it's worth, I've always used a mix of weapon types based on a mixture of what's most powerful and most easily available- the assault rifles are definitely a step up when you first get them, but with no safe way of getting more copies of them or their ammo besides killing enemies carrying it you have to make do with what you can find.

Guess that's about what I should have expected. Should have assumed you'd already had gun nuts try to school you after 4 years of doing this :)
My main thing was the part about how it's frustrating for Assault rifles to not do anything against mid-late 97 cultists, but I'll check the hub before commenting again about that.

That's because they typically have better armor and have innate kinetic damage resistance. The M16 (and especially the G11) are better for dealing with that, but failing that, the crossbow is an acceptable alternative since they don't resist its cutting damage to nearly the same degree.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2020, 07:27:02 pm by anothrgamer1234 »

Offline Bonakva

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Re: Early gun balance
« Reply #79 on: January 21, 2021, 09:46:49 pm »
I did not know where to write, so I am writing here.
BlackOps SMG is just a fierce machine for the destruction of all living things. Snap shot for 3 shots crumbles a lot of enemies into cabbage. Almost 100% chance that something will fly in, and not just hit, but also cause alpha damage.
A simultaneous volley during an auto attack kill everything that appears in sight. In addition, the weapon has excellent accuracy. Even at medium-long range, there is a good chance of hitting 1-2 bullets from one weapon
Problems only appear with armored opponents
I wonder if I'm the only one who thinks so?

For me, this is not only a weapon of victory in the early game, but also a farming weapon.
Putting newbies on auto attack during a mission on monsters is a simple pumping of soldiers. You just skip turns and the enemies themselves die
« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 09:49:14 pm by Bonakva »

Offline Empiro

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Re: Early gun balance
« Reply #80 on: January 21, 2021, 11:18:56 pm »
It's a toss up between the BlackOps SMG and Mac 10 in close quarters. Until you get Trit ammo, the Mac 10's huge base damage and 8-round auto make mincemeat of anything within its short range. The SMG is better at slightly longer ranges. Both are good in the hands of newbs with a shield. However (and this could just be my own confirmation bias), in the latest version, I haven't used shields nearly as much because it feels like even if you directly face the enemy, you get hit on your side armor quite often.

One early-ish weapon I've only recently discovered and absolutely love is the Arasaka 3000. It has a highly accurate aimed and snap shot (and a very long range on the snap shot). It doesn't have the accuracy-squared modifier, so you get decent accuracy in the hands of a rookie. It gains damage based on reaction, and even a modest amount of reaction gives it more damage than most rifles. I also like the sound it makes. It completely replaced the BlackOps Rifle for me as soon as I'm able to get a steady supply.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Early gun balance
« Reply #81 on: January 22, 2021, 10:33:16 am »
I have overhauled SMGs a little bit. It was only a couple weeks ago, so will only be noticed by those players who use the GitHub unreleased version. Anyway, now should be a bit fairer.

Offline The Reaver of Darkness

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Re: Early gun balance
« Reply #82 on: January 28, 2021, 09:01:36 am »
However (and this could just be my own confirmation bias), in the latest version, I haven't used shields nearly as much because it feels like even if you directly face the enemy, you get hit on your side armor quite often.
No, you do. Whichever side is facing the incoming fire is most likely to get hit, but shots can hit other available sides as well and it's pretty common that they do. They cannot hit the far side of your soldier. If you face a corner instead of a side to incoming fire, then instead of three sides they can hit, they will (pretty much) only be able to hit two sides.

Offline Bonakva

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Re: Early gun balance
« Reply #83 on: January 28, 2021, 12:59:33 pm »
Does frontal armor imply leg and torso armor? What does "under" armor mean? Is it the armor of the legs themselves or the armor under the feet?
I've never been into mechanics. From the point of view of game mechanics, are our soldiers two dice?

Offline Mrvex

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Re: Early gun balance
« Reply #84 on: January 28, 2021, 04:34:31 pm »
Does frontal armor imply leg and torso armor? What does "under" armor mean? Is it the armor of the legs themselves or the armor under the feet?
I've never been into mechanics. From the point of view of game mechanics, are our soldiers two dice?
Under armour is for explosions... i think.

Offline ohartenstein23

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Re: Early gun balance
« Reply #85 on: January 28, 2021, 05:28:52 pm »
Armor and body parts are separate things.

The armor side that is hit is determined by where a projectile hits on the unit's hitbox. Under armor is used when an explosion is centered directly below a unit or in one of the 8 tiles surrounding the unit in the same plane.

The body part that is hit is determined after the armor side is determined. Roughly, hits to the sides go to the arms or legs, hits from the front, back, or explosions go to the torso, and hits from above go to the head. But importantly, these body parts are not part of the unit's "model" or hitbox, they're just markers for fatal wounds and how those fatal wounds penalize the unit.

Offline Empiro

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Re: Early gun balance
« Reply #86 on: February 03, 2021, 03:08:02 am »
Not exactly an early game weapon, but anyone else feel that the BlackOps Smartgun is ridiculously good (maybe too good)? As soon as I got it, it almost instantly because the only weapon I use, other than specialty weapons like Rockets and Snipers. It outclasses all the other weapons you get around that time (late 1998/early 1999) like the Macro SMG, Assault Cannon, and the lasers you find. With Trit ammo and the built-in armor reduction, it can even pierce power suits and tank armor (it's actually one of the biggest sources of friendly-fire deaths on my tanks). The Smartgun has an accurate and long ranged 3x snapshot, along with the slightly less accurate but equally long ranged 5x auto shot. At 25 squares, even if you shoot at the edge of your vision range, the penalties aren't that bad. The reaction fire is also incredibly good because of the accuracy and 3x burst.

Offline Bonakva

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Re: Early gun balance
« Reply #87 on: February 03, 2021, 01:31:02 pm »
Yes, this is a great weapon.
Good accuracy over a great distance. The fines are not significant.
I have deduced a universal rule for myself. If the weapon has a snap (x2 or x3) with acceptable accuracy at a distance of 15+ tiles, it is a victory weapon. Huge damage due to DPS. There is always a huge hit chance due to the number of shots fired. The main advantage of such weapons is that they do not lose reaction fire.

One of the best machine guns in the early game in my opinion is the MG-3.
Firing range 32 cells. Relative accuracy, but due to the huge shooting distance, it is good accuracy. Snap (x2). Huge damage. Also Auto (x6) allows you to make 2 shots without changing position. If there is a strong fighter with good accuracy, he will annihilate all living things