Re: The X-Com Files - 3.5: Whispers In The Dark

[JeyP]

Played until "Promotion 2". Few quick thoughts.

- Front of the car is not a cover, it's stay like that ? Either way is fine for me, just curious.
- Like these small starting urban missions. Before (0.2) my first field mission was after logistic, now (0.3) i had lot of fun from the beggining.

Bad game pace becous of :
- OP Luger, it's better than sniper rifle, aimed should be around ~75% and power bonus should be lower too
- maybe becouse of OP Luger but there was no better weapons until "Promotion 2", maybe add something better at "Promotion 1"
-Dragonfly, from 4 to 8 or 7 men and drone/dog it's quite a boost, maybe add 6 men vehicle around "Promotion 1" extend time to "Promotion 2" and add dragonfly around then.
- I said it before but gym is OP. Soldiers in gym gain stats to fast and even when they are going on the mission. Around "Promotion 2" i had a lot of good soldiers with 110-120 accuracy. Lower stat gain and maybe allow only 1 gym for base if possible. Or it could train soldiers only to 99 in stats if possible. For me gym should train medicore/good soldiers not superhumans.

[Solarius Scorch]

Played until "Promotion 2". Few quick thoughts.

Thanks.

- Front of the car is not a cover, it's stay like that ? Either way is fine for me, just curious.

It's a low cover. The problem is not with the tile, but with OpenXCom aiming algorithm, which is imperfect.

- Like these small starting urban missions. Before (0.2) my first field mission was after logistic, now (0.3) i had lot of fun from the beggining.

Yeah, it's a new thing, to make the beginning more approachable.

Bad game pace becous of :
- OP Luger, it's better than sniper rifle, aimed should be around ~75% and power bonus should be lower too

I'd rather make it more rare, or appear later.

- maybe becouse of OP Luger but there was no better weapons until "Promotion 2", maybe add something better at "Promotion 1"

You mean a pistol? Like a Luger lite?

-Dragonfly, from 4 to 8 or 7 men and drone/dog it's quite a boost, maybe add 6 men vehicle around "Promotion 1" extend time to "Promotion 2" and add dragonfly around then.

Maybe, but I don't have such plans right now.

- I said it before but gym is OP. Soldiers in gym gain stats to fast and even when they are going on the mission. Around "Promotion 2" i had a lot of good soldiers with 110-120 accuracy. Lower stat gain and maybe allow only 1 gym for base if possible. Or it could train soldiers only to 99 in stats if possible. For me gym should train medicore/good soldiers not superhumans.

I'm planning to add training caps for stats. You won't be able to train over a certain level, battle experience only. But I need to test it first, get a better feel.

[Arthanor]

Nooo! Don't nerf my Luger! Actually, it is quite OP and overshadows pretty much everything else except at extreme close range (where autoshots or shotguns are better) or extreme long range (where hunter rifle wins by accuracy). I don't know if making it rare would improve things, or just make it more unrealistic. I would suggest a damage scaling that doesn't increase linearly with firing accuracy, to eventually cap the max damage. Firing quickly is the point of pistols, so increasing TUs should only be done a bit, maybe. Accuracy could also be lowered (or maybe aimRange decreased for all pistols?) to let rifles be the better medium range weapons. Another option could be to lower power past a certain range for pistols, although I don't know how realistic that would be.

I think having a better rifle after Promotion I, to start to properly arm your agents, would be good. At that point, you start to be almost on par with the police and may well have multiple bases already. I got something I can't remember the name of (uses the BlackMarch sprite from Piratez), which turned out to be better at close range thanks to autofire, but worse at high range because of the TU cost of aimed shot and lower accuracy. In general, I think 2H weapons should do better at longer range than pistols, so higher aim shot accuracy and aimRange could help take away the Luger king of sniping. Pistols should be the kings of ~15 tiles range (fast for higher movement combat, and more accurate than autoshots at that range) with rifle snapshots as a close second, ~10 tiles for rifle autoshots, ~5 tiles  for shotguns, > 25 for rifles aimed shot.

Training caps for the gym would indeed be pretty sensible. Something like.. actualy stat caps for strength and stamina (you can definitely train that to monstrous level in a gym), ~80 Firing and Melee, ~85% of stat cap TUs (part of the challenge in battle comes from the stress and movement, which you need to experience to get). That way, veterans from the field can keep an edge over rookies with gym training instead of all agents being interchangeable.

[Solarius Scorch]

Many thanks for taking your time to talk about this!

Nooo! Don't nerf my Luger! Actually, it is quite OP and overshadows pretty much everything else except at extreme close range (where autoshots or shotguns are better) or extreme long range (where hunter rifle wins by accuracy). I don't know if making it rare would improve things, or just make it more unrealistic. I would suggest a damage scaling that doesn't increase linearly with firing accuracy, to eventually cap the max damage. Firing quickly is the point of pistols, so increasing TUs should only be done a bit, maybe. Accuracy could also be lowered (or maybe aimRange decreased for all pistols?) to let rifles be the better medium range weapons. Another option could be to lower power past a certain range for pistols, although I don't know how realistic that would be.

The problem is that I actually like Luger, I mean a weapon with this profile. I could nerf the Luger, but then I'd have to introduce another similar weapon, so the problem will remain (although not necessarily with the 'more unrealistic' part). I can tighten the range though, and maybe make it a bit slower.
Thoughts?

I think having a better rifle after Promotion I, to start to properly arm your agents, would be good. At that point, you start to be almost on par with the police and may well have multiple bases already. I got something I can't remember the name of (uses the BlackMarch sprite from Piratez),

Perhaps you mean HKMP5? Because the Blackmarch SMG uses HKMP5 sprite.
Yeah, it's good. I think it reflects its real counterpart rather well.

which turned out to be better at close range thanks to autofire, but worse at high range because of the TU cost of aimed shot and lower accuracy. In general, I think 2H weapons should do better at longer range than pistols, so higher aim shot accuracy and aimRange could help take away the Luger king of sniping.

Is increasing range for all SMGs what you have in mind? Because it's a ~possibility.

Training caps for the gym would indeed be pretty sensible. Something like.. actualy stat caps for strength and stamina (you can definitely train that to monstrous level in a gym), ~80 Firing and Melee, ~85% of stat cap TUs (part of the challenge in battle comes from the stress and movement, which you need to experience to get). That way, veterans from the field can keep an edge over rookies with gym training instead of all agents being interchangeable.

Something like this, yes.

[Arthanor]

Many thanks for taking your time to talk about this!

You're welcome! I wasn't entirely sure it was ready to play beyond Promotion I, but I see I was overly conservative. I will be playing some more soon for sure.

The problem is that I actually like Luger, I mean a weapon with this profile. I could nerf the Luger, but then I'd have to introduce another similar weapon, so the problem will remain (although not necessarily with the 'more unrealistic' part). I can tighten the range though, and maybe make it a bit slower.
Thoughts?

Hey, I love the Luger too. Didn't I say so in my impression dump? The problem is that it's better than everything else except at really long or really short ranges, which is maybe a bit too useful This is especially true given how easy it currently is to get agents with 90+ accuracy. To me, it's almost fine, and decreasing pistol aim ranges to 25 (default dropoff is what? 2% per tile, so that's 10% less accuracy at range, and actually increasing the accuracy loss to 3. So gradual nerf from 25 and 15% drop in accuracy past 30 tiles). I like the TU cost at 32%, to get 3 aimed shots if stationary and that seems to be a design decision for pistols. I was going to suggest a slight nerf in damage, but after comparing expected damage between it and the magnum, it seems pretty fine.

Perhaps you mean HKMP5? Because the Blackmarch SMG uses HKMP5 sprite.
Yeah, it's good. I think it reflects its real counterpart rather well.

Yes, now that you say the name, I recognize it. I was initially not very impressed, but after trying it (I wanted a rifle damnit!), it is nice.

Is increasing range for all SMGs what you have in mind? Because it's a ~possibility.

It depends on what you intend to do with pistols. It feels like two handed weapon should be more accurate at longer range than a pistol. I suggested a pistol range nerf above. Increasing the range of SMGs could work too, maybe. In my experience, most fights happen in < 30 tiles, so giving things abilities to reach much beyond 30 tiles does not change much (except for sniper/HMG type weapons, where being stationary and reaching all the way across the map is the point). As such, I think reducing pistol ranges is more effective than increasing SMG range, because it makes pistols less good in parts of the fighting distances, instead of making SMGs better in ranges that aren't really all that relevant.

Something like this, yes.

Glad you like it

Edit: one thing I forgot to say: I find it very odd to see these pistols with 30+ damage, up to 38 damage in the early game, but not finding rifles with at least equivalent damage, if not better.

[Solarius Scorch]

Hey, I love the Luger too. Didn't I say so in my impression dump? The problem is that it's better than everything else except at really long or really short ranges, which is maybe a bit too useful This is especially true given how easy it currently is to get agents with 90+ accuracy. To me, it's almost fine, and decreasing pistol aim ranges to 25 (default dropoff is what? 2% per tile, so that's 10% less accuracy at range, and actually increasing the accuracy loss to 3. So gradual nerf from 25 and 15% drop in accuracy past 30 tiles). I like the TU cost at 32%, to get 3 aimed shots if stationary and that seems to be a design decision for pistols. I was going to suggest a slight nerf in damage, but after comparing expected damage between it and the magnum, it seems pretty fine.

To quote the classic: "Yes, I have bankai. You want bankai? Here's bankai. BANKAI!"
Now most pistols have range of either 20 or 25. We'll see how it plays.

Edit: one thing I forgot to say: I find it very odd to see these pistols with 30+ damage, up to 38 damage in the early game, but not finding rifles with at least equivalent damage, if not better.

OK, I'll think about it, but it's not bad on principle. I mean, you're a detective...

[Arthanor]

Sounds good!

Also, I have no opposition to having crappy equipment, especially at the beginning, because we're detectives and not soldiers. That's totally fine. But, regardless of who are firing them, are rifles really weaker than pistols? In the sense of being hit by an AK-47 bullet being less of a problem than being hit by a pistol of some kind? I don't know much about weapons, admittedly, but I thought that rifles would be at least on par with pistols, if not more powerful. Admittedly, maybe I'm comparing only low power rifles to high power pistols, given that my selection of rifles is much much smaller than my selection of pistols.

[Drasnighta]

Sounds good!

Also, I have no opposition to having crappy equipment, especially at the beginning, because we're detectives and not soldiers. That's totally fine. But, regardless of who are firing them, are rifles really weaker than pistols? In the sense of being hit by an AK-47 bullet being less of a problem than being hit by a pistol of some kind? I don't know much about weapons, admittedly, but I thought that rifles would be at least on par with pistols, if not more powerful. Admittedly, maybe I'm comparing only low power rifles to high power pistols, given that my selection of rifles is much much smaller than my selection of pistols.

If you want to bring a little real-world into it...  It can matter, indeed... 

There was a problem in Afghanistan that high-powered rifles that were intended for use against Body armour, were essentially hitting unarmoured people, making a tiny entrance wound, passing through, and leaving a tiny exit wound - hurting, but not appreciably stopping said unarmoured person...

Whereas a lower speed Pistol (or more commonly, a lower powered tumbling-round rifle) did much more *damage* by either remaining in the target, or making larger exit wounds......

So yes, paradoxically, a lot of rifles WILL do less damage to someone than a Pistol of the appreciable calibre, because the speed and flight characteristics of the bullets themselves are fundamentally different.

[Arthanor]

That could be a very interesting twist to take with it: Give SMGs and rifles some armor penetration, but lower "raw" damage than pistols to represent the effect you describe. It would be a side way of making (army-type) rifles stand up to pistols.

[Solarius Scorch]

This is exactly the problem with X-Com engine: it doesn't account for penetration. You can't have hollow point ammo, AP ammo etc. I mean you could, but it'd require separate damage types, and we only have 10 of these.

Having said that, no, I don't think pistols should overall be stronger than rifles. (I misunderstood the issue at first.) But is this the case? A strong pistol like Colt has damage 30, the same as a standard rifle (AK47, Blackops Rifle). Most pistols are weaker.

[Meridian]

This is exactly the problem with X-Com engine: it doesn't account for penetration. You can't have hollow point ammo, AP ammo etc. I mean you could, but it'd require separate damage types, and we only have 10 of these.

Why does this require a new damage type?

[Solarius Scorch]

Why does this require a new damage type?

Well, I haven't been able to come up with any other method of simulating various ammo types... Because damage type is exactly what it is.

[Meridian]

You just want one ammo to penetrate armor better than the other ammo, right?
If yes, why not use one (or more) of Yankes' new damage altering parameters?

Code: [Select]

  - type: STR_SNIPER_RIFLE_CLIP
    battleType: 2
    power: 30
    damageType: 1 # DT_AP
    damageAlter:
      ArmorEffectiveness: 1.0 # armor is 100% effective
      ToArmorPre: 0.0 # no extra damage to armor
  - type: STR_SNIPER_RIFLE_CLIP_PENETRATING
    battleType: 2
    power: 30
    damageType: 1 # also DT_AP
    damageAlter:
      ArmorEffectiveness: 0.5 # armor is 50% effective
      ToArmorPre: 0.1 # destroys 10% of armor before each hit/damage calculation


[Solarius Scorch]

You just want one ammo to penetrate armor better than the other ammo, right?

Because it's not only a matter of armour penetration as understood by X-Com, it's a matter of different damage types sensu stricto. A HP bullet behaves differently from an AP bullet. It could be approximated by giving HP bullets much more damage and a hefty armour penetration penalty, but that'd be really confusing when it comes to damage values. I just don't want to do something this hackish.

[Meridian]

Because it's not only a matter of armour penetration as understood by X-Com, it's a matter of different damage types sensu stricto. A HP bullet behaves differently from an AP bullet. It could be approximated by giving HP bullets much more damage and a hefty armour penetration penalty, but that'd be really confusing when it comes to damage values. I just don't want to do something this hackish.

Well, then what kind of non-hackish effect do you want?

I could add 20 more damage types already today, it's a matter of few hours... but they would be fundamentally no different from any other existing damage types (i.e. you couldn't do anything brand new with them as far as I understand)... I just don't understand how adding another type helps you?

There's no difference between for example DT_AP and DT_ACID or between DT_LASER and DT_PLASMA, except for the name/translation... or is there?

Just trying to find out what you're looking for... cos I just don't quite see it yet.