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Author Topic: Re: The X-Com Files - 3.2: The Colors of Sin  (Read 1951928 times)

Offline Apocca

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.8: The Lunar Protocol
« Reply #5190 on: March 16, 2023, 03:30:32 pm »
Starting playing X-Com Files and had 'military shot down UFO' mission. I was so exciting for that. Choose to go there during the day, bad decision :D

Offline Juku121

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.8: The Lunar Protocol
« Reply #5191 on: March 16, 2023, 04:05:52 pm »
...how they find all of these convient safe houses in the middle of the pacific ocean.

And I don't think "savescumming will make this work for everybody" is a better argument than "tackling this mission might get less frustrating if you tackle this mission".

These are all arguments for how or why this could work, but not arguments why it should or have to work this way.
There's no plausible explanation for why you can 'patrol' or change course mid-flight using commercial airliners, either. Limitations of the engine and all that.

Savescumming is an argument because that's exactly what I've seen a number of streamers do when their ground mission starts going south. If the frustration is big enough, you can savescum. If it is not, it was not such a big problem then.

The arguments for why it should work like this are exactly those previous two that you choose to ignore:
  • Rewarding players for planning and being good at the air (transport) game.
  • UFO mythos and the XCF pre-invasion fluff are largely based on them being hard to pin down.

I don't think new missions should be needlessly frustrating - given that as you stated we already have "real" UFO landings and crashed UFOs...
How are pre-crashed UFOs 'needlessly frustrating'? And the point of these missions is to a) increase that pool since complaining about a lack of UFOs seems to be a thing, and b) increase the proportion of the pool that is accessible without a radar network. That is, lessen the frustration of finding a UFO without blowing up the core premise of the mod.

And even if everything is as you say, why is more mission variety, even if the difficulty stays more or less the same, a bad thing?

...I still don't see how this would incentivise players to "build" better transports is an argument, let alone needed.
Why do we have a upgradeable transports and multiple bases if improving your transport game is not important? Should we go nuCom and do away with anything that isn't the Skyranger and all bases beyond the first altogether?

Also note that I did not say 'build transports', I said 'building transport coverage'.



I do have to ask what is it that you're arguing for here, exactly? New UFO missions should not be added? Should not be added to the pre-invasion stage? Timers should be more generous? Something else?

Because honestly "I don't see how your argument is an argument" is not particularly convincing, either.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2023, 04:28:07 pm by Juku121 »

Offline krautbernd

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.8: The Lunar Protocol
« Reply #5192 on: March 16, 2023, 06:14:35 pm »
There's no plausible explanation for why you can 'patrol' or change course mid-flight using commercial airliners, either. Limitations of the engine and all that.

Yes, but how is requiring this improving the situation?

Savescumming is an argument because that's exactly what I've seen a number of streamers do when their ground mission starts going south. If the frustration is big enough, you can savescum. If it is not, it was not such a big problem then.

How is savescumming an argument in favor of anything? It isn't. Mechanics and missions that are well implemented should not require or encourage savescumming.

The arguments for why it should work like this are exactly those previous two that you choose to ignore:

Rewarding players for planning and being good at the air (transport) game.

Your argument earlier was basically "doing these would make doing these missions less frustrating". I honestly don't see any meaningful reward here that's worth pushing the player into keeping their agents eternally airborne. I don't think this is a meta worth supporting.

UFO mythos and the XCF pre-invasion fluff are largely based on them being hard to pin down.

That's still not an excuse for implementing early game missions that use mid- to late game despawn timers comparable to those for alien terror missions.

How are pre-crashed UFOs 'needlessly frustrating'?

They are not, but they provide pretty much the same benefits you're advancing for this new type of missions. Hence "needlessly".

And even if everything is as you say, why is more mission variety, even if the difficulty stays more or less the same, a bad thing?
Because it doesn't. If these were introduced later or used longer despawn timers I wouldn't have all that much trouble seeing these as a worthwile addition. As it stands they are not.

Also note that I did not say 'build transports', I said 'building transport coverage'.
Point taken, but I don't see what difference that makes, given the meta this encourages or is supposed to incentivize. Existing missions already require or at least incentivize crafts with longer ranges or straight out building additional bases (cults/cult HQs being constrained to certain countries). I simply don't see the added benefit of pushing despawn times even further down in the early game.

I do have to ask what is it that you're arguing for here, exactly?
I thought that I had made that sufficiently clear by now. Not trying to frustrate new players and restricting missions to very specialzed play styles.

Please don't introduce missions with very short and strict despwn times early in the game. They are not needed and don't incentivize anything existing missions and mechanics don't already pull off in more rewarding ways.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2023, 06:18:25 pm by krautbernd »

Offline Juku121

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.8: The Lunar Protocol
« Reply #5193 on: March 16, 2023, 07:45:35 pm »
Yes, but how is requiring this improving the situation?
Why is me saying it is not required and there are other methods to soften the blow, twice, not getting through? The ideal player-side solution is to beeline for better transports and new bases. If the player can't be bothered or plays a challenge run, and dislikes both savescumming and excessive preparation, well, a minor score loss on par with regular crop circles should not cripple their game.

How is savescumming an argument in favor of anything? It isn't. Mechanics and missions that are well implemented should not require or encourage savescumming.
But the issue at hand is not whether there's a well designed mission, nor whether sacescumming is required. Nothing particularly bad will happen if you don't sacescum. Your other argument was that it 'frustrates' the player, ie a specific kind of player's emotional state, and reloading is a solution to that. One that millions of players utilise every day. If you have a different argument about the mechanical design, that should be made separately.

That is, don't think that the mod 'owes' you 'fair' missions. It doesn't. Getting to do and win a rare hard mission is a reward. Or maybe luck. :)

Your argument earlier was basically "doing these would make doing these missions less frustrating". I honestly don't see any meaningful reward here that's worth pushing the player into keeping their agents eternally airborne.
No, it was 'would make finding these missions less of an issue'. Actually winning the mission is a separate matter. One could also make the early instances easier, by equipping the aliens with stun weapons, anal probes and the like instead of plasma guns.

And I agree, forcing players to do a Helmet Hair would be useless. Fortunately, getting to these mission sites in no way requires that.

Plus, getting Alien Power Systems from such a UFO means early Skyraiders, which means you no longer need to be 'eternally airborne' if you chose to do that. Or get better coverage if you lucked into a nearby UFO, etc. I think that's quite a meaningful reward.

And if you mean 'reward' in a meta sense, it's catering to the mod's stated audience, 'experienced players', and rewarding good play. I see no isse with that unless you're one of these people who think all games need to get harder and harder and harder the longer they go on.

That's still not an excuse for implementing early game missions that use mid- to late game despawn timers comparable to those for alien terror missions.
That is exactly an excuse to do that. There might be reasons why doing so might be counterproductive otherwise, and indeed there are. Strategy games and their design is a matter of trade-offs, after all.

They are not, but they provide pretty much the same benefits you're advancing for this new type of missions. Hence "needlessly".
Well, yes, the mod will not suffer greatly if there are no more UFO different missions. But that argument can be leveled against most any single mission type, and is thus not particularly strong in itself.

And if the mod has an overabundance of 'shot down' UFOs, that raises thematic issues. Why does the world need X-Com when local militaries can already do the job. My proposal is largely about providing a more varied source of UFOs to play with, so one type will not dominate too much.

And the 'shot down' missions have allies, so they're the really easy version. My proposal is a middle ground between those and 'free' UFOs.

Because it doesn't. If these were introduced later or used longer despawn timers I wouldn't have all that much trouble seeing these as a worthwile addition.
My proposition already covers the 'later' part. It was that these missions would be added to every phase of the game, with UFO sizes and prevalence increasing as time goes on. They'd be rare in the beginning, where most crop circles etc still have farmers, then you transition to mostly MiB coverups, and then mostly UFOs. Maybe one year per each phase.

You might consider the rare early UFOs interactable 'bad events'. :D

I simply don't see the added benefit of pushing despawn times even further down in the early game.
It isn't 'pushing despawn times ... down'. It's a singular mission type.

Not trying to frustrate new players and restricting missions to very specialzed play styles.
Given that the 'specialised play style' is a strawman, and new players will not be meaningfully more frustrated by a few early UFOs than they'd be by manors, regular early UFOs, Chupacabra hordes or any other curveball the mod throws their way, I fail to see why you're so insistent about this one single addition.

Please don't introduce missions with very short and strict despwn times early in the game.
Actually, I am not even sure where you get that these are insurmountably short timers. A Dragongly covers half the globe in 10 hours. An Opsrey covers like 80%+ in 11. So two bases with Dragonflies will get to almost any 12-hour-time-limit mission, barring more important missions coming up at the same time. And that's what a player is supposed to be doing in a strategy game, making meaningful choices using limited resources.

Early on, a private car will do much the same as an Osprey, and two agents against a Small Scout seems reasonably fair. Very early on, before Promo I, you're kinda hosed, but that's what progress is all about.

They are not needed...
Nothing is ever strictly needed in a game. I think such missions would provide an interesting and thematic opportunity.

Offline krautbernd

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.8: The Lunar Protocol
« Reply #5194 on: March 16, 2023, 09:01:58 pm »
Why do you feel the need to escalate the discussion this way when my argument can be neatly summarized in two sentences i.e.

"I don't see any benefit in adding mid-to-late-game despawn timers to early game missions"

and

"I don't see the benefit or need to further incentivize transport capacity"

I don't have a problem with the mission itself, nor am I against "more UFO missions". I never said anything to that account.

I simply don't see how your claims of why this specific implementation would be a good idea actually add up. I think the point were you tried to paint savescumming as an argument "in favor" of this was where this started to kind of brake down for me. And trying to argue that players need additional incentives to use the Osprey or the Dragonfly is kind of bizzare to be honest. Are we plaing the same game here?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2023, 09:04:16 pm by krautbernd »

Offline Juku121

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.8: The Lunar Protocol
« Reply #5195 on: March 16, 2023, 11:46:05 pm »
"I don't see any benefit in adding mid-to-late-game despawn timers to early game missions"
And I already addressed the benefits. You personally not thinking they are not (good) enough with no real argument other than 'I see no need' is not particularly convincing, either.

Plus, a mid-late-game 'despawn' timer is half a dozen UFOs landing for perhaps 4-6 hours each, twice at best. 12 hours for a single mission is Promo II tier. And the proposal covers far more than the early and very early game.

"I don't see the benefit or need to further incentivize transport capacity"
Which is the same reason as the first one, really.

I simply don't see how your claims of why this specific implementation would be a good idea actually add up.
So, why is the idea of rewarding a player for doing well or getting lucky not adding up?

And you seem to be conflating 'incentivise' and 'require' in your arguments, which seems to be the root cause of our disagreement.

I think the point were you tried to paint savescumming as an argument "in favor" of this was where this started to kind of brake down for me.
Savescumming is not an argument for the mission, it's an argument against a specific counterpoint of yours. New players are already getting frustrated by a zombie randomly killing their first two agents, and resolving said frustration by reloading. I am getting frustrated seeing them do this again and again. :P

It is neither possible nor desirable to remove new player frustration from a mod explicitly aimed at veterans, and in the bigger picture the additional frustration from a rare mission would be minuscule.

And trying to argue that players need additional incentives to use the Osprey or the Dragonfly is kind of bizzare to be honest.
Actually, kinda yes. Some people beeline for the Osprey and skip the Dragonfly. This would make the latter a bit more relevant.



To sum it up, I don't see a lore-friendly way to reduce the timers, nor a reason to do so past the first six months, well, maybe a year. If you have one, I have nothing against it. Maybe add a Roswell version where the UFO crashes on its own? But that is actually a fourth type of UFO mission.

I am not going to agree that every mission must be accessible to every player, and that the mod should never encourage tightly optimised play. Since that seems to be the core of your argument, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree and leave Solarius to pick up the pieces if he wants to.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 12:07:39 am by Juku121 »

Offline krautbernd

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.8: The Lunar Protocol
« Reply #5196 on: March 17, 2023, 01:02:26 am »
And I already addressed the benefits. You personally not thinking they are not (good) enough with no real argument other than 'I see no need' is not a particularly convincing stance, either.

I already laid down why I don't think that - as proposed - this is needed or beneficial, and that claiming that this would "incentivize" anything is in my oppinion not a valid argument, given what's already in the game. I am not here to convince you of anything, really. I am aware that that rarely works when people are invested into an idea.

I don't get the part about the despawn timer and UFOs landing or taking off. We are specifically not talking about UFOs here. If this would spawn as an actual UFO this would be a different matter. I am referring solely to mission sites. I also don't understand why you think that "this covers more than early game" changes anything. Your claims regarding "incentives" makes even less sense the further the player gets into the game. Conversely I would have less objections to these were popping up later in the game or with different timers.

And when I say "incentivize" or "incentives" I do in fact mean those words and not something else.

New players "already getting frustrated and savescumming in other missions" still isn't an argument in favor of implementing another mission that is prone to causing frustration because of overly short mission timers in the early game.

And funny how I seem to be doing the exact opposite by not using the Osprey all that much unless I am actually forced to because I prefer faster crafts. All without needing any incentive. Again, I think the "this needed to incentivize (x)" is really more of a pretext. As far as I can tell both craft have their uses and "some people do (y) and don't play the game correctly" is a pretty weak argument in my oppinion.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2023, 01:05:56 am by krautbernd »

Offline Xylon666Darkstar

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.8: The Lunar Protocol
« Reply #5197 on: March 17, 2023, 04:41:16 am »
All I am seeing is someone arguing they're not liking how the game/mod plays and has unrealistic expectations of an engine from the 90s.

Offline sanchoss

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Re: Re: The X-Com Files - 2.8: The Lunar Protocol
« Reply #5198 on: March 21, 2023, 08:46:01 pm »
Very cool Mod. Cool storylines, more difficult levels, especially laser cannon on ships. Keep going.

Offline Apocca

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.8: The Lunar Protocol
« Reply #5199 on: March 27, 2023, 05:51:11 pm »
I love the storylines too. Especially all the little easter eggs to different x-com games  :D

Offline Torchwood

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.8: The Lunar Protocol
« Reply #5200 on: March 29, 2023, 07:50:43 pm »
Currently one game year in, made it to Promotion II. Can't comment much about lategame, have not gotten to it yet. Compared to the other mods I've played, Files is a lot more chill, not much happens in the earlygame so you can just set the geoscapee to 1 hour or even 24 hours and wait.

I have no idea how to best deal with early UFOs largely because I've never seen one. As for manors, those are your typical Solarius mission, bring the best of the best. I've done three so far with 6-8 agents and prom II gear. There were some napalm and gas grenades in looted crates, put them to use in manors. Use your UFO activity charts - if there's constant activity in a region, odds are there's a manor somewhere, use something undetectable to locate it.

One of the big early game tricks: Learn to use your grenades. Initially you only get smokes, those are great for concealment. When you are outnumbered (i.e. all the time) having fewer gunmen shooting at you is good. Flashbangs make approaching for a stun with taser or club much safer. Once you loot some damage grenades (i.e. grenade, incendiary grenade, dynamite), you can use those for crowd control. Though give the latter only to strong agents, the weight makes throwing it hard.

Offline Czudak

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.8: The Lunar Protocol
« Reply #5201 on: March 30, 2023, 03:41:17 pm »
Alright. I'm done with the other tasks, so I can focus on making the mod page for this. I see the GitHub is active as much as it can, so when there's gonna be the next version available? Any ETA, so I could make screenshots and the micro teaser on the newest material?

Offline Xylon666Darkstar

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.8: The Lunar Protocol
« Reply #5202 on: March 31, 2023, 04:49:17 am »
2.8 JUST came out less than a month ago. So you probably have awhile until next big update.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.8: The Lunar Protocol
« Reply #5203 on: April 04, 2023, 12:38:09 pm »
I'd say I'm about 80% done.
If there's a critical bug or something, I can release 2.9 any time. If not, then I'd like to add some more things.

Friendly reminder: you can always take the GitHub nightly version and just use it. 99% chance it will work fine, except that translations will probably be incomplete.

Offline DoxaLogos (JG)

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.8: The Lunar Protocol
« Reply #5204 on: April 04, 2023, 05:08:23 pm »


Friendly reminder: you can always take the GitHub nightly version and just use it. 99% chance it will work fine, except that translations will probably be incomplete.

I've been pulling the latest from github fairly regularly as you've made fixes.  It's been working fine.