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Author Topic: Re: The X-Com Files - 3.5: Whispers In The Dark  (Read 2453308 times)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4890 on: December 21, 2022, 12:34:58 pm »
Spoiler:
The "ufos" that are spawning aren't actually ufos.
Of course they are UFOs. Every unrecognised flyer is a UFO.


I find the MiG-31s placement in the tech tree quite awkward, because it comes right before the vanilla interceptor which seems to be superior by every metric.

I'm aware of this, but honestly it's pretty hard to increase this spacing, since I can't reasonably move the MiG to any earlier point. What I should do is redesign more advanced planes, but this is the same issue: there is not enough research projects to fit all those designs with nice, long intervals. I guess I just have too many plane types.

Of course you can do whatever you like with the tech tree, it's your game and all. But I should mention that I think it will wreck the difficulty curve.

So I'll probably move the MiG to an earlier place in the tech tree as it doesn't really make sense to me that cultists have soviet cold war fighters, but XCOM don't have access to similar fighter jets.

Why doesn't it make sense? What wouldn't make sense would be the opposite, lol.

Offline amokk_gw

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4891 on: December 21, 2022, 12:56:33 pm »
Of course they are UFOs. Every unrecognised flyer is a UFO.
Well a MiG-29 is hardly an unrecognized flyer. 

I'm aware of this, but honestly it's pretty hard to increase this spacing, since I can't reasonably move the MiG to any earlier point. What I should do is redesign more advanced planes, but this is the same issue: there is not enough research projects to fit all those designs with nice, long intervals. I guess I just have too many plane types.
Why can't you move the MiG to Promotion II level and affiliate it with the Red Dawn? So even if the cults would have access to military airplanes before X-Com, X-Com could get access to the same gadgets once the contact with the Red Dawn arms dealer has been completed. And since the Arrow is already tied in with EXALT, a simliar thing could be done with the Arrow.


Why doesn't it make sense? What wouldn't make sense would be the opposite, lol.
So first of all, cults like the Black Lotus or the Church of Dagon don't strike me as the types of people who would bother learning to fly soviet era fighter jets. Secondly, realistically the manors would require a runway for those planes to take off and land. Thirdly and most importantly: The only realistic way for the cults to obtain these planes would be through black market activities. I mean they can't just place an order with the official manufacturer. And if they had to purchase those crafts through the black market, than XCOM could do the same if they can't get them legally. Ohh and the cults would also violate the countries airspace and probably get shut down by the miliary.

At least that's my train of thought. ;)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2022, 01:15:54 pm by amokk_gw »

Offline Juku121

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4892 on: December 21, 2022, 01:26:52 pm »
Of course they are UFOs. Every unrecognised flyer is a UFO.
As amokk_gw said, a UFO is something that's not indentifiable as something we know, including hostile fighter jets. The term came about as a reaction to certain WWII phenomena, and unidentified/enemy airplanes were quite plentiful then.

Technically, what the game calls UFOs aren't actually UFOs, either. We know what they are, alien spaceships. We probably even have floor plans. :P

But UFO has been used as a synomym for a specific sort of alien spacecraft for so long, it's now a dictionary use case.

Of course you can do whatever you like with the tech tree, it's your game and all. But I should mention that I think it will wreck the difficulty curve.
How? Genuine question. Little Birds are useless against cultist fighter jets, while manors and their air dominance have been brought up repeatedly as an issue for at least novice players.

I might appreciate the tight balancing and a more deadly air game. Not everyone else does.

Why can't you move the MiG to Promotion II level and affiliate it with the Red Dawn?
Because it'll break suspension of disbelief when you can have access to fighter jets (which no amount of red tape wrangling can hide) while not being 'authorised' to use mortars and rocket launchers. Or something. Not sure actually, since you're allowed to fly Skyraiders and Arrows with just Promotion II, and both of those are military planes.

So first of all, cults like the Black Lotus or the Church of Dagon don't strike me as the types of people who would bother learning to fly soviet era fighter jets.
I think the idea is that they don't fly the jets themselves, they have inroads to the local (country-level, that is :) ) government and can paint X-Com flyers as hostile airspace violators who need shooting down. It's military personnel who actually fights you in the skies. Not sure this makes 100% sense, but certainly a lot sense than random cultists being allowed to freely and openly operate military aircraft by anything but the most dysfunctional of governments.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2022, 01:31:30 pm by Juku121 »

Offline Mathel

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4893 on: December 21, 2022, 01:44:23 pm »
As amokk_gw said, a UFO is something that's not indentifiable as something we know, including hostile fighter jets. The term came about as a reaction to certain WWII phenomena, and unidentified/enemy airplanes were quite plentiful then.

UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object. Not "unidentifiable", merely "unidentified". As such, so long as you know it is flying and you do not know what it is, it is a UFO to you.

This means that a blip on the radar is a UFO until you get some identification on them, be it visual or radio. It is a UFO to the radar operator, but not to the pilot flying it.

Offline amokk_gw

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4894 on: December 21, 2022, 02:02:07 pm »
UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object. Not "unidentifiable", merely "unidentified". As such, so long as you know it is flying and you do not know what it is, it is a UFO to you.

This means that a blip on the radar is a UFO until you get some identification on them, be it visual or radio. It is a UFO to the radar operator, but not to the pilot flying it.

I feel like that's semantics. A MiG-29 just doesn't qualify as a UFO by common sense.

I think the idea is that they don't fly the jets themselves, they have inroads to the local (country-level, that is :) ) government and can paint X-Com flyers as hostile airspace violators who need shooting down. It's military personnel who actually fights you in the skies. Not sure this makes 100% sense, but certainly a lot sense than random cultists being allowed to freely and openly operate military aircraft by anything but the most dysfunctional of governments.
Okay, but in my case they were launched in China and China doesn't have MiG-29 and a quick google search leads me to believe that Angel Fighters are made up, so that would indicate to alien technology. So I feel like in whatever way you spin it, it doesn't make sense in one way or another. And that's okay, it's a game after all and for game balances sake I think the MiG-31 should be available sooner. Especially since it looks like in the current research spot it's entirely useless because you'll replace them with regaular interceptors 1 month later.

Offline Juku121

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4895 on: December 21, 2022, 02:36:18 pm »
UFO stands for Unidentified Flying Object. Not "unidentifiable", merely "unidentified". As such, so long as you know it is flying and you do not know what it is, it is a UFO to you.

This means that a blip on the radar is a UFO until you get some identification on them, be it visual or radio. It is a UFO to the radar operator, but not to the pilot flying it.
This is not how USAF (and US government in general) used the term, neither when it was first coined as 'UFOB', nor later, nor even later when they started calling them UAPs to head off the 'must be alien spacecraft' bit. Hostile (but clearly human) aircraft of unknown type were never designated as UFOs.

Neither is it how the term's been used colloquially since then, nor how USG uses the term UAP now. NASA ouright says on its mission page: "... unidentified aerial phenomena (UAPs) – that is, observations of events in the sky that cannot be identified as aircraft or known natural phenomena..." If radar says it's aircraft, it's not a UFO.


If there's a hankering for redefining how X-Com the organisation uses the term for the game/mod, fine. Needs at least a pedia article then, though.


Okay, but in my case they were launched in China and China doesn't have MiG-29 and a quick google search leads me to believe that Angel Fighters are made up, so that would indicate to alien technology.
That's treading perilously close to 'fighter porn'. :D Wanting authentic aircraft for every single country on Earth is, uh, possible, I guess. "Solarius will kill himself out of sheer tedium before a quarter of it is complete" level of possible, though.

I have no idea what the Angel fighters are, but since it's really not the original cultists who fly these (mostly), I guess they might be a somewhat non-terrestrial.

So I feel like in whatever way you spin it, it doesn't make sense in one way or another.
Eh, making the MiG-21 a stand-in for J-10 (or F-16) makes enough sense, I think. One could also remove the specifics and call it a "fourth-gen air superiority fighter of unspecified type", but, well... :)

And that's okay, it's a game after all...
Solarius wants a certain amount of 'realism'. Others sometimes disagree how 'real' some of these things are, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that aspiration itself. Why make a mod that makes you roll your own eyes? :D

...and for game balances sake I think the MiG-31 should be available sooner. Especially since it looks like in the current research spot it's entirely useless because you'll replace them with regaular interceptors 1 month later.
Yeah. :( I also moved them to Promo II back when I had aspirations of redesigning the mod. That was way before any cultist fighters existed, though.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2022, 03:14:00 pm by Juku121 »

Offline amokk_gw

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4896 on: December 21, 2022, 02:52:21 pm »
I mean there is nothing wrong with going as realistic as possible. In fact I really like that. What I've meant is, if realism is the only issue then you can just make something plausible up like with a lot of the alien ufopedia entries. For example you could buy MiG-31 from a corrupt russian organisation that sells it for a premium to select clientele. I mean we already have BlackOps, Magma, UAC and probably other shady weapons sellers.

So ultimately my question would be: What makes the most sense gameplay, balance and fun wise? Are there any reasons beyond realism to have it like it is? If the answer is yes, I'd be really interested in the thought process. If the answer is no, I think with the huge creativity I've seen so far from this mod, it should be quite easy to come up with plausible reasons.

Offline Juku121

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4897 on: December 21, 2022, 03:13:00 pm »
No disagreement there. Solarius thought it'd break current balance. Maybe it does, that's why I asked him how.


The problem the mod places in X-Com's way and the overarcing theme is not a matter of acquiring military hardware. We get plenty of machine guns before the licence come along, etc. It's about toeing the red tape and having plausible deniability for using it. Hiding away a few PKMs and RPGs is relatively easy, people do similar things all the time. When the Council gets reports of someone successfully intercepting UFOs, there's UFO 'flying the saucers' tech showing up in tech reports from X-Com, there are UFO reactors on the market, suspiciously empty hangars whenever an inspector comes by, flight hours being paid out to way too many agents...
« Last Edit: December 21, 2022, 03:15:42 pm by Juku121 »

Offline amokk_gw

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4898 on: December 21, 2022, 03:41:00 pm »
I don't think I've seen a single real UFO that I would've been able to shoot down before 1999. The only ones that are flying around are middle-sized ships and I don't think you could crash them. And since the invasion starts in 1999, the aliens would reveal themselves anyway, so any kind of concealement would be moot.

So in that case, I'd make the weapons strong enough to fight regular aircrafts, but not strong enough to down a real ufo. And if you manage to down one anyway, you can have a message pop up that the council is very displeased that they had to clean after your lack of dilligence. -> -50 points.

Offline Stone Lake

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4899 on: December 21, 2022, 04:58:46 pm »
As I wrote before, you can use multiple birds to beat cult MiG's.

MiG-31 doesn't really solve the problem.
It has even less HP than little birds, 20 against 26.
It can use missiles, but the missiles don't outrange cult MiGs.
So you're about as prone to lose MiGs vs cult MiGs, as you do little birds. With MiGs being waaay more costly. It's a downgrade, imo.

Interceptor is cut above with it's 100 hp, but still pretty meh and even more costly, and still has no dodge bonus.

The only thing that MiG and Interceptor can do that bird can't is potentially bring down small or medium scout UFOs if they slow down. But you may as well just take landing UFOs for free.

Raven is the first adult interceptor that can faceroll both cult MiGs and early UFOs. But chances are, that it's just UFO navigation research away from much better thunderstorm.

Realistically, swarming cult MiGs with helicopter shouldn't be possible, is it?
So i'd suggest buffing MiG's durability and lowering it's cost way down so it would be worthwhile to use in the first place.
About it's tech tree place, I think it's fine. Being able to buy promo 3 rocket launcher AFTER you're able to buy MiGs is weird. And it's partly player's fault for allowing cult manors to grow in first place anyway. Although getting rid of 22+ manors wasn't walk in the park.










« Last Edit: December 21, 2022, 05:07:00 pm by Stone Lake »

Offline amokk_gw

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4900 on: December 21, 2022, 05:07:33 pm »
As I wrote before, you can use multiple birds to beat cult MiG's.

That's not really practical, you'd need at least 3 hangars in every base. And that's likely not enough because enemy MiGs mostly spawn in pairs of 2. So it'd be 2v2.

MiG-31 doesn't really solve the problem.
It has even less HP than little birds, 20 against 26.
I'll do some balancing tests with different values, both for HP as well as different ranges on the cult MiGs.

And it's partly player's fault for allowing cult manors to grow in first place anyway. Although getting rid of 22+ manors wasn't walk in the park.
I don't see how that's the players fault. Until I read about manors here in the forums, I didn't even know they spawned the crafts. I thought they were protecting the mission.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2022, 05:26:02 pm by amokk_gw »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4901 on: December 21, 2022, 05:32:35 pm »
Well a MiG-29 is hardly an unrecognized flyer.

sigh
Really, bro?

Why can't you move the MiG to Promotion II level and affiliate it with the Red Dawn? So even if the cults would have access to military airplanes before X-Com, X-Com could get access to the same gadgets once the contact with the Red Dawn arms dealer has been completed. And since the Arrow is already tied in with EXALT, a simliar thing could be done with the Arrow.

Because Promo III should be hard to get. It's part of the general design.
(Honestly, with MiGs at your disposal, you could just sweep most cult activities on the globe.)

Also, imagine that you are not allowed to use incendiary grenades, but MiGs are just fine. Not very sensible, eh? [EDIT: right, Juku said so too.]

So first of all, cults like the Black Lotus or the Church of Dagon don't strike me as the types of people who would bother learning to fly soviet era fighter jets.

*shrug*

Secondly, realistically the manors would require a runway for those planes to take off and land.

True, but they don't take off from this nice villa in the suburbs, come on. They simply take off from the same city.

Thirdly and most importantly: The only realistic way for the cults to obtain these planes would be through black market activities. I mean they can't just place an order with the official manufacturer. And if they had to purchase those crafts through the black market, than XCOM could do the same if they can't get them legally. Ohh and the cults would also violate the countries airspace and probably get shut down by the miliary.

They don't exactly own these assets, they're using corrupted national forces to get what they want.

As amokk_gw said, a UFO is something that's not indentifiable as something we know, including hostile fighter jets. The term came about as a reaction to certain WWII phenomena, and unidentified/enemy airplanes were quite plentiful then.

Wikipedia says that an unidentified flying object is anything that cannot be identified as any known design.
But anyway, this is a mostly American term; from a quick search, other countries don't seem to even use it (or any equivalent) in its official meaning.

Technically, what the game calls UFOs aren't actually UFOs, either. We know what they are, alien spaceships. We probably even have floor plans. :P

That's true. :)

But UFO has been used as a synomym for a specific sort of alien spacecraft for so long, it's now a dictionary use case.
How? Genuine question. Little Birds are useless against cultist fighter jets, while manors and their air dominance have been brought up repeatedly as an issue for at least novice players.

I might appreciate the tight balancing and a more deadly air game. Not everyone else does.

Probably in many ways, as the mods was written with this limitation in mind. It's not like I have an analytics team who would pore over the mod to identify all possible outcomes and impact on gameplay. :P You're supposed to be a weakling pushover at this level, and that's it.

I have already addressed the manors issue by simply decreasing their numbers, and the case remains open.

I think the idea is that they don't fly the jets themselves, they have inroads to the local (country-level, that is :) ) government and can paint X-Com flyers as hostile airspace violators who need shooting down. It's military personnel who actually fights you in the skies. Not sure this makes 100% sense, but certainly a lot sense than random cultists being allowed to freely and openly operate military aircraft by anything but the most dysfunctional of governments.

Yes, pretty much that. Not sure it's super sensible either, but close enough.

I feel like that's semantics. A MiG-29 just doesn't qualify as a UFO by common sense.

Fine, you can call it Marylin.

Excuse me, but what the heck am I supposed to do with this? Rename each instance of "UFO" in the mod to something else?

Solarius wants a certain amount of 'realism'. Others sometimes disagree how 'real' some of these things are, but I don't think there's anything wrong with that aspiration itself. Why make a mod that makes you roll your own eyes? :D

This is quite on point. :D

Yeah. :( I also moved them to Promo II back when I had aspirations of redesigning the mod. That was way before any cultist fighters existed, though.

The only thing that MiG and Interceptor can do that bird can't is potentially bring down small or medium scout UFOs if they slow down. But you may as well just take landing UFOs for free.

Exactly, this is pretty much their function.

Raven is the first adult interceptor that can faceroll both cult MiGs and early UFOs. But chances are, that it's just UFO navigation research away from much better thunderstorm.

I honestly should make a super convoluted research tree with many aircraft parts and components from various sources to make each plane viable... :P

So i'd suggest buffing MiG's durability and lowering it's cost way down so it would be worthwhile to use in the first place.

I'm worried it would make the gap between the MiG and other interceptors even smaller.

I recognise your point, but I think it should be overhauled in a more complex way... somehow. I mean the entire air game. (Which I've already done at least twice...)

Although getting rid of 22+ manors wasn't walk in the park.

Sorry about that, should be less in 2.8.

I don't see how that's the players fault.

Umm... You allow the manor to grow to level 3 and claim it's not your fault?
I mean it happens all the time, to me as well, but I'd never say "it's not my fault"! :)

Until I read about manors here in the forums, I didn't even know they spawned the crafts. I thought they were protecting the mission.

Yes, it's a matter of experience. The game's name is "UFO: Enemy Unknown" after all.

IN THE END OF THE DAY: manor patrols are not the end of the world, you can play and still do most missions while simply staying away from those cities. Manors are supposed to be mostly an inconvenience, and I think they are. Of course, sometimes it will bite you hard, but that's what enemies are for.

Offline Stone Lake

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4902 on: December 21, 2022, 05:42:14 pm »
That's not really practical, you'd need at least 3 hangars in every base. And that's likely not enough because enemy MiGs mostly spawn in pairs of 2. So it'd be 2v2.
For me it was 4v2 and I did have 3 hangars per base. Some - 2. You'll need multiple interceptors later anyway, and then also move them because they don't cover the entire globe.

I don't see how that's the players fault. Until I read about manors here in the forums, I didn't even know they spawned the crafts. I thought they were protecting the mission.
Manors grow in tiers over time and need at least 10 months game time before spawning MiGs. So they're either too rare and minor so you can't even understand what they do, or a serious problem that you notice and prepare for.

IN THE END OF THE DAY: manor patrols are not the end of the world, you can play and still do most missions while simply staying away from those cities. Manors are supposed to be mostly an inconvenience, and I think they are. Of course, sometimes it will bite you hard, but that's what enemies are for.

Yep, even losing transports to manor guards isn't that big of a loss anyway. Your soldiers return, it's just craft and items that are lost.
But even beyond that. With big enough financial buffer, you can TPK entire 16-people crafts multiple times and the campaign will proceed just fine.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2022, 05:54:59 pm by Stone Lake »

Offline amokk_gw

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4903 on: December 21, 2022, 05:50:13 pm »
Manors grow in tiers over time and need at least 10 months game time before spawning MiGs. So they're either too rare and minor so you can't even understand what they do, or a serious problem that you notice and prepare for.
Is that even explained somewhere? I mean this is the first time I hear about growing manors and I don't even see a manor in the game despite having done at least 50 missions in the area. All I see is some MiGs spawning near missions (sometimes). It feels like you only really start to notice this once it's too big of a problem to deal with unless you read the forums and know about this stuff. But that would be bad design, because it essentially forces you to throw 60 hours of playtime into the bin and start from scratch. You can't just ignore those missions either or you'll lose on points.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2022, 05:53:28 pm by amokk_gw »

Offline Stone Lake

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4904 on: December 21, 2022, 06:14:17 pm »
Is that even explained somewhere?
No. You can infer it from gameplay if you pay attention. But I agree that some article or event wouldn't hurt.

But that would be bad design, because it essentially forces you to throw 60 hours of playtime into the bin and start from scratch. You can't just ignore those missions either or you'll lose on points.
Suicide little bird into manor guards, wait until guards come inside the manor. They won't spawn again for 2 weeks. Then attack with dragonfly (you should have osprey at this point though).
Here you go, 1000 points.