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Author Topic: Re: The X-Com Files - 3.2: The Colors of Sin  (Read 1988593 times)

Offline Juku121

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4860 on: December 12, 2022, 05:52:57 pm »
For example, I suspect that the effectiveness of piercing armor with a titanium sword depends on the strength number of the agent.
Well, you're right, but that's because regular damage also pierces armour and the alloy sword scales off strength.

As krautbernd said, there is no special extra armour effectiveness multiplier for alloy swords, like many other slashing weapons have.

Offline Akamashi

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4861 on: December 12, 2022, 06:16:07 pm »
Well, you're right, but that's because regular damage also pierces armour and the alloy sword scales off strength.

As krautbernd said, there is no special extra armour effectiveness multiplier for alloy swords, like many other slashing weapons have.
Is this accurate information, or do you just think that you are right?

Can you list an example of what you're referring to here? Because the alloy sword has these entries regarding damage:

Code: [Select]
    power: 50
    damageType: 7
    damageBonus:
      strength: 0.6
      melee: 0.2
    damageAlter:
      ToTile: 0.3

Which is (of course) identical to what's listed in-game. No additional armor piercing, unless the item implements additional scripts which might modify damage behaviour. Why are you "suspect[ing] that the effectiveness of piercing armor with a titanium sword depends on the strength number of the agent"? What "effectiveness" are you talking about? What "number of variables"?

I am guided only by the in-game description, where it is written for a titanium sword that it penetrates heavy armor better than other weapons. Especially for fighters with a high strength index.

The plasma sword has a similar description. It also says that it passes through armor like through water. And it also lacks the armor efficiency string.

And finally. I'm not saying anything specifically. I'm just asking about my suspicions. Even in my first playthrough, I was very surprised how easily the tritanium sword breaks through the mib storm trooper. Most often with a single hit. Although in terms of damage and armor there is 50-50 whether damage will be done at all.


Offline AmanitaVerna

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4862 on: December 12, 2022, 07:18:47 pm »
Is this accurate information, or do you just think that you are right?

I am guided only by the in-game description, where it is written for a titanium sword that it penetrates heavy armor better than other weapons. Especially for fighters with a high strength index.

The formula for power and accuracy for each weapon is listed right on the wiki, derived from modifiers that you can see in the detailed information view in-game. The effect you think is there is because the tritanium sword's power is 50 + 0.6 * STRENGTH + 0.2 * MELEE ACCURACY.
Damage is (damage roll(power) * the target's damage modifier for that damage type - the target's armor * armor effectiveness).
Armor effectiveness for the tritanium sword is just 100%.

Offline krautbernd

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4863 on: December 12, 2022, 07:30:27 pm »
I am guided only by the in-game description, where it is written for a titanium sword that it penetrates heavy armor better than other weapons. Especially for fighters with a high strength index.

Nothing in-game states that the sword "penetrates heavy armor better than other weapons", nor does the weapon have any inherent armor piercing qualities.

The fluff states that it "can take down even heavily armored foes". But that is true of any weapon able to dish out high damage.

Neither the article itself states that the sword has any armor piercing capabilities, nor does the weapon actually have any such capabilities.

The plasma sword has a similar description.

Apart from the fact that the descriptions are pretty much meaningless since they don't define what the weapon is actually capable of, let's compare these "similar" descriptions and what the weapons actually do:

Quote from: Alloy Sword
"This specially crafted sword is a formidable close combat weapon, utilizing the operative's physical strength to take down even heavily armored foes."

Quote from: Plasma Sword
"This lethal implement of a sword combines a large blade, a micron thick at the edge, a plasma emitter, and an electromagnet. When activated, hot plasma floods the EM field surrounding the blade, superheating it to the point where its touch would make titanium run like water."

The first description states that the sword can take down heavily armored foes. It does does not state that it can pierce armor. The seond descirtion states that it can damage armor. It does not state that it is armor piercing.

I already listed the damage defintions of the alloy sword and noted that it does not have any armor piercing capabilites - nor does the description imply any.

These are the relevant lines from the definition for the plasma sword:

Code: [Select]
    power: 65
    damageType: 5
    damageBonus:
      strength: 0.3
      melee: 0.3
    damageAlter:
      IgnoreOverKill: false
      ToArmorPre: 0.05
      ToStun: 0.75
      RandomWound: false
      ToWound: 0.12
      FireThreshold: 25.0
      ToTile: 1.25

Note the line reading "ToArmorPre" and look up the entry in the ruleset reference.

This applies direct armor damage. Note that this is not "armor piercing" either, since it only applies damage to armor, not to the units health. This ability to "shred" armor is what the description references when it states it "would make titanium run like water".

I'm just asking about my suspicions. Even in my first playthrough, I was very surprised how easily the tritanium sword breaks through the mib storm trooper. Most often with a single hit. Although in terms of damage and armor there is 50-50 whether damage will be done at all.

Why would this be 50-50? Can you explain how you arrived at that conclusion and would you mind doing the damage calcuations for training and max stat caps (for normal soldiers) based on front, side and back armor values for the MIB stormtrooper armor?

« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 07:35:40 pm by krautbernd »

Offline Mathel

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4864 on: December 12, 2022, 08:20:59 pm »
.308 rifle has armor piercing capabilities. So do warp weapons.

From Warp Rifle Clip
Code: [Select]
power:34
damageAlter:
 IgnoreOverKill:false
 ArmorEffectiveness:0.35
 ToArmor:0
34 Power
Can vaporize targets
Ignores 65% of target armor
0% of final damage damages armor

But you are right that the Tritanium Sword does not have such capabilities.

Offline Akamashi

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4865 on: December 12, 2022, 08:33:11 pm »
Thank you all for your opinion. You write logical arguments. You're probably right.

Offline krautbernd

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4866 on: December 12, 2022, 09:08:03 pm »
Thank you all for your opinion. You write logical arguments. You're probably right.

I'm just asking about my suspicions. Even in my first playthrough, I was very surprised how easily the tritanium sword breaks through the mib storm trooper. Most often with a single hit. Although in terms of damage and armor there is 50-50 whether damage will be done at all.

I still would like to know how you arrived at that conclusion.

Offline Juku121

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4867 on: December 12, 2022, 09:28:20 pm »
The alloy sword does lack the armour penetration penalty most low-tech swords have. You can look at it as a kind of relative penetration ability.

But everyone's already explained how things are. A lot of your observations are down to the fact that weapon damage is rather random and thus can easily lead to strange conjectures when applied to a small sample.

Offline Akamashi

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4868 on: December 12, 2022, 09:58:53 pm »
I still would like to know how you arrived at that conclusion.

What is unclear? My fighters have a damage with a titanium sword of about 0-200. Frontal armor shock armor 95, if I remember correctly. It also seems that shock armor has 10% resistance to cuts.

Offline krautbernd

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4869 on: December 13, 2022, 02:24:30 am »
What is unclear? My fighters have a damage with a titanium sword of about 0-200. Frontal armor shock armor 95, if I remember correctly. It also seems that shock armor has 10% resistance to cuts.

Why are you talking about shock armor when you're referring to MIB stormtroopers?

Offline Juku121

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4870 on: December 13, 2022, 04:16:07 am »
Anyone know what mission spawns a Tritium Matrix?
Tritium is the stuff that powers things glowing in the dark, Tritanium is the metal/alloy them aliens stole from the Federation. Or maybe the Borg? :P

Haven't really played post-2.5, but from limited testing, at least the Lunar Colony and MiB bases.

Currently I'm being gated because I don't have alloys to make anything.
I suppose that was the idea, to remove easy access to alloy manufacturing.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2022, 04:18:41 am by Juku121 »

Offline Akamashi

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4871 on: December 13, 2022, 05:00:17 am »
Why are you talking about shock armor when you're referring to MIB stormtroopers?
Yes, this is a mistake. Here half of the fault is my stupidity, and the other half is the language barrier. I meant the dudes in heavy fallout armor, not the flying ones.


Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4872 on: December 13, 2022, 04:28:34 pm »
Tritium is the stuff that powers things glowing in the dark, Tritanium is the metal/alloy them aliens stole from the Federation. Or maybe the Borg? :P

Directly? From Master of Orion. 8)
(I know it's not them who came up with this, but I don't know if it was star Trek or something even earlier.)

Offline AmanitaVerna

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4873 on: December 13, 2022, 10:48:54 pm »
Just wait until the aliens start fielding zortrium spaceships and actually think to put their gravity-conducting circuitry on the inside of their ships. :P

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: The X-Com Files - 2.7: Spectral Entities
« Reply #4874 on: December 14, 2022, 09:55:14 am »
Just wait until the aliens start fielding zortrium spaceships and actually think to put their gravity-conducting circuitry on the inside of their ships. :P

Cydonians don't have Zortrium. They aren't as advanced as they want us to believe. ;)
As a curiousity, Piratez have Zortrium. But it's too rare make whole ships out of it, or even body armours.