Re: The X-Com Files - 3.5: Whispers In The Dark

[krautbernd]

Totally unrelated note, but what exactely is the point of the UAC raid in caveman disguises? Going in with absolutely no armor against superior odds is bound to end in fuck up of epic proportions, as demonstrated by my team getting nailed in the first round by rocket launcher wielding armored up UAC strike team. I also don't think arriving in a Dragonfly fits in with the cavemen disguise btw.

Going over this again right now - to be frank, the whole concept of that missions just strikes me as badly designed. At that point X-COM knows what kind of gear UAC is selling and what precautions somebody would take who is illegally distributing those weapons. Why would X-COM choose a cavemen disguise of all things? For the lolz?

[Mrvex]

Totally unrelated note, but what exactely is the point of the UAC raid in caveman disguises? Going in with absolutely no armor against superior odds is bound to end in fuck up of epic proportions, as demonstrated by my team getting nailed in the first round by rocket launcher wielding armored up UAC strike team. I also don't think arriving in a Dragonfly fits in with the cavemen disguise btw.

Going over this again right now - to be frank, the whole concept of that missions just strikes me as badly designed. At that point X-COM knows what kind of gear UAC is selling and what precautions somebody would take who is illegally distributing those weapons. Why would X-COM choose a cavemen disguise of all things? For the lolz?

The whole undercover mission thing is quite underwhelming and not exactly fun and most of them arent even required to progress (with UAC being an exception from top of my head).
I dont see the point of having missions where you are forced to use crap equipment and crap weapons and crap agent count against enemies who are fully armoured and armed with all the weapons you cannot have... like rocket launchers. If anything, the enemies should adhere to the gear rules.

If UAC has troops armed with machineguns and rocket launchers walking the streets, national guard/local military would go after them the moment any random joe would call the police to ask about some paramilitary types walking around the streets.

[MemoryTAS]

to be fair, you can 100% just loot them and then use their weapons on that same mission. Probably not how the missions were meant to be played but whatever.

I assume the cave men thing is because there is a cult of apocalypse subculture called cavemen but it really isn't that great going up against rocket launcher jerks with them. If it was just UAC rifles etc, it probably wouldn't be as bad.

[krautbernd]

to be fair, you can 100% just loot them and then use their weapons on that same mission. Probably not how the missions were meant to be played but whatever.

I assume the cave men thing is because there is a cult of apocalypse subculture called cavemen but it really isn't that great going up against rocket launcher jerks with them. If it was just UAC rifles etc, it probably wouldn't be as bad.

Yeah, good luck with. Unless you have superhuman agents, use save scumming or get extraordinarily lucky with the spawns you are probably bound to lose part of your squad (that was my experience). Of course you would be bound to use their weapons, unless you want to keep lobbing grenades.

Again, why cave men? Why not westmen or motor men or easy riders? All of them would probably fit in wearing a coat and carrying pistols or guns. Do we really need another mission with "artificial" difficulty on top of the other infiltration missions? With beach, winter resort etc. it is actually somewhat believable that x-com would stand out using their regular gear. This is simply not the case when x-com tries to go undercover as one of those subcultures/cult of apocalypse themselves.

Even more so, why would cavemen in particular be interested in buying high-tech, space-capable weapons?

[hipsu]

Yeah, good luck with. Unless you have superhuman agents, use save scumming or get extraordinarily lucky with the spawns you are probably bound to lose part of your squad (that was my experience).

I agree with you about the silliness of the whole situation, but I just wanted to brag that I did it without save scumming. Napalm grenades was my trick and I threw smoke too to give cover when retrieving those UAC weapons. Sure I might have gotten lucky too, I don't deny that.

[Solarius Scorch]

Totally unrelated note, but what exactely is the point of the UAC raid in caveman disguises? (...) For the lolz?

The whole undercover mission thing is quite underwhelming and not exactly fun

Oh puh-leeeeze.

Do you serously want all missions to look the same? Always in best gear and such? Seriously?

I am not even going to respond to such a silly "issue".

If the mission is too hard, it can be adjusted. I haven't played it as part of a real campaign yet, so I'm not sure.

to be fair, you can 100% just loot them and then use their weapons on that same mission. Probably not how the missions were meant to be played but whatever.

I didn't say so... In fact, it feels liker the obvious approach to me.

I assume the cave men thing is because there is a cult of apocalypse subculture called cavemen but it really isn't that great going up against rocket launcher jerks with them. If it was just UAC rifles etc, it probably wouldn't be as bad.

Like I said, minor corrections can be made, as long as it doesn't go too far. After all, it's pretty much a one-time mission.

Again, why cave men? Why not westmen or motor men or easy riders? All of them would probably fit in wearing a coat and carrying pistols or guns. Do we really need another mission with "artificial" difficulty on top of the other infiltration missions? With beach, winter resort etc. it is actually somewhat believable that x-com would stand out using their regular gear. This is simply not the case when x-com tries to go undercover as one of those subcultures/cult of apocalypse themselves.

I'll be completely serious now: I can't remember why I chose the Cavemen. Probably it was simply the easiest option to make. I don't want to change this decision now, so maybe I'll just decrease the difficulty by removing some weapons.

Even more so, why would cavemen in particular be interested in buying high-tech, space-capable weapons?

Well, they also use them, just not as often. They can't all be toting big bones and remain relevant...

[hipsu]

The big clash to me was that my Cavemen arrived in a Dragonfly and immediately charged out of the craft throwing Napalm everywhere. Not very infiltraty. They should start in some office room or something, like how in Ski and Beach the dudes start in a house so one could imagine some spy stuff going on before the mission started...

[Solarius Scorch]

The big clash to me was that my Cavemen arrived in a Dragonfly and immediately charged out of the craft throwing Napalm everywhere. Not very infiltraty. They should start in some office room or something, like how in Ski and Beach the dudes start in a house so one could imagine some spy stuff going on before the mission started...

I guess this mission could use some polishing, it was made under heavy time constraints, sorry.

[krautbernd]

Oh puh-leeeeze.

Do you serously want all missions to look the same? Always in best gear and such? Seriously?

You'll note that I stated that other infiltration mission at least kind of fit in with x-com not using "their best gear". This fits in with beach missions not spawning units with rocket or grenade launchers. There is no reason as to why x-com should go in naked on this one. You are not facing a cult, you are facing a rogue element of an international weapons conglomerate. X-Com should not be dumb enough to send in agents in animal furs against guys carrying high-tech weapons and wearing body armor. Your entry even reads that these guys should not underestimated, even when outgunned.

I am not even going to respond to such a silly "issue".

This is valid criticism for a badly designed and thought out mission. Not only does it not fit in with other infiltration mission, it also makes x-com out to be amateurs - which at that point that are not. X-COM has at least recruited a military envoy by then. Somebody who would no doubt veto such an approach, being acutely aware what kind of forces X-Com agents will be facing.

This would go over as an april fools joke, not as a serious mission. The setup makes absolutely no sense, seeing how x-com has a plethora of other options that would not leave their agents as cannon fodder (seeing how using rookies on this one isn't really an option).

Well, they also use them, just not as often. They can't all be toting big bones and remain relevant...

So I take it that also also usually employ Dragonflies or Helicopters? If I was UAC I would probably hightail it if my supposed cavemen contact turns up in anything but land-based transportation.

I guess this mission could use some polishing, it was made under heavy time constraints, sorry.

I was not aware that this was part of the "crunch" - that explains the "hasty" approach x-com takes

If you have a chance to go over the misison and absolutely need to use the cavemen disguise, why not at least make it a bit more elaborate, seeing how this is the start of a bigger arc?

Why not approach this as an exfiltration mission instead? X-Com meets the contact+henchman in cavemen disguise, now you have to knock him out/capture him and exfiltrate him while reinforcements (i.e. UAC mercenaries who were standing by in case things go bad) arrive on the scene.

[Solarius Scorch]

You'll note that I stated that other infiltration mission at least kind of fit in with x-com not using "their best gear". This fits in with beach missions not spawning units with rocket or grenade launchers. There is no reason as to why x-com should go in naked on this one. You are not facing a cult, you are facing a rogue element of an international weapons conglomerate. X-Com should not be dumb enough to send in agents in animal furs against guys carrying high-tech weapons and wearing body armor. Your entry even reads that these guys should not underestimated, even when outgunned.

Yes, I cannot argue with that. I was only referring to infiltration missions on the whole.

This is valid criticism for a badly designed and thought out mission. Not only does it not fit in with other infiltration mission, it also makes x-com out to be amateurs - which at that point that are not. X-COM has at least recruited a military envoy by then. Somebody who would no doubt veto such an approach, being acutely aware what kind of forces X-Com agents will be facing.

Eh I dunno, we've done worse. I think the problem wouldn't be pronounced if the enemiues weren't using such powerful weapons.

This would go over as an april fools joke, not as a serious mission. The setup makes absolutely no sense, seeing how x-com has a plethora of other options that would not leave their agents as cannon fodder (seeing how using rookies on this one isn't really an option).
So I take it that also also usually employ Dragonflies or Helicopters? If I was UAC I would probably hightail it if my supposed cavemen contact turns up in anything but land-based transportation.

OK, I need to redesign this, I guess:

- decrease enemy threat by taking away heavy weapons and such
- forbid use of flying vehicles

I really don't want to change whom you're impersonating, because I don't have any other cult costumes, and it's not a trivial thing to make. (Well I have Osiron, not used anywhere yet, but it makes no sense.)

[krautbernd]

OK, I need to redesign this, I guess:

- decrease enemy threat by taking away heavy weapons and such
- forbid use of flying vehicles

I really don't want to change whom you're impersonating, because I don't have any other cult costumes, and it's not a trivial thing to make. (Well I have Osiron, not used anywhere yet, but it makes no sense.)

But at that point it becomes just "another" infiltration mission.

Asylum apparitions is fun because the enemies&mechanics involved aredifferent. Also, music.
Syndicate raid is fun because you get to fight in a high-rise where you need to check your corners and watch your agents energy. Also you get to wear sick coats and get to shoot security in the head like Neo did in The Matrix.
Beach is kind of fun because of limited inventory and clobbing people with surf boards.
Industrial espionage is kind of fun because you get to beat people with a crowbar like Gordon Freeman and shoot people with a stapler gun like that guy from American Psycho.

What is the intended fun you are supposed to have in this mission? Throw incendiary grenades at guys in body armor while your agents are dressed as cavemen and get shot and die? I don't get it.

This might sound entitled (and I honestly don't want it to), but as far as I am concerned this needs more than some minor balancing, especially as this is the break-out mission for a bigger arc. No offense, but I think this is has become a case of quantitiy (as in, this missions needs to be done so the player can move on to other missions) over quality. I'd rather have less but more enjoyable/stand-out missions.

Again, if you want to have x-com wearing caveman outfits, do something that is more than a vanilla mission. Please.

[Marrik]

What about some kind of mission where you ambush a UAC convoy in a forest or canyon or something while disguised as Westmen? Maybe using only weapons Westmen use?

[Mrvex]

What about some kind of mission where you ambush a UAC convoy in a forest or canyon or something while disguised as Westmen? Maybe using only weapons Westmen use?

If you are ambushing them in the open, having disguises is completely pointless since there is nothing to infiltrate, you are far from cities where things like tanks and miniguns would raise alarm.
Not even making a bait in the open would justify enforcing concealment rules, given that XCOM could have 1-2 live baits in disguises to do the talking while rest of the team simply hides with full XCOM arsenal.

[AlicePaws]

Well, they also use them, just not as often. They can't all be toting big bones and remain relevant...

Thermal/ACOG scoped Big Bone Clubs when? 

[krautbernd]

Solarius, is it intended that X-Com is free to murder UAC employees with impunity? It's one thing to kill UAC mercenaries during an "arrest", but how come X-Com is free to straight out raid a UAC R&D-Lab and pretty much kill everyone on sight without even getting so much as a negative score? Most of the engineers are bystanders, yet they are treated as legitimate targets.

On top of that UAC is a major supplier of X-Com tech / technology in general. Are they okay with X-Com raiding their facilities and abducting their staff? While the council didn't "discourage" X-Com from pursuing leads regarding illegal weapon distribution, I don't think they meant "raid UAC facilities and murder/abduct their staff with impunity".