Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N10 24-Nov-2024 Aurora's Dawn

[legionof1]

No it was removed, the idea had merit but the execution was awful. It just applied an arbitrarily large amount of damage without regards for armor or resistance. Given just how many tools could already force fire on bodies and have armor/resist still work it just wasn't working as desired.

[username]

To be fair, unless someone is completely immune to being stabbed, executing downed opponents with a knife, through heavy armor, is actually historical. The knife would not have otherwise been effective in a live combat against said opponent, but once downed and you can target any opening or weakness at leisure, you could thus execute them in this way.

[RSSwizard]

This is how Crysallids and Tentaculats are supposed to kill power armored soldiers anyway. Because they just poke your neck seal or the face shield and away you go.

I can see why itd be removed. Though it means needing a pistol or such on hand not just melee if you want to be sure things be dead. Having noticed this ive started carrying arpund Small Revolvers/MAG for melee characters just in case. A boom fruit can blow away other loot on them.

The main thing being like if you dont want marsec bodyguards to survive so you get the PBA parts x1, verses being stuck at a Prison Full screen and forced to sell them for 70k and not get the parts (yeah but the other base prison is full too  )

Also the whole Deep Ones prize thing since they're notorious for getting wounded but not dying right off. And as it so happens you often shoot them down rather than go toe to toe. There's no Extraction option (execution) to transmute a live Deep One into simply a dead one, it just butchers them for meat instead.

[legionof1]

To be fair, unless someone is completely immune to being stabbed, executing downed opponents with a knife, through heavy armor, is actually historical. The knife would not have otherwise been effective in a live combat against said opponent, but once downed and you can target any opening or weakness at leisure, you could thus execute them in this way.

You made the point for exactly why it was removed. The execution made no provision for a unit that should be immune based on physiology, when multiple mods had robots, various cybernetics, or extra dimensional life. It was just click to deal infinite arbitrary damage for flat cost. It also ignored alot of other rules like self destruct, or overkill.

the concept was sound, but was so crudely executed that it was not fit for purpose. Kinda like a lock that would open for any key.   

[RSSwizard]

I like some of the changes that have been made. The new Shipping Crate is a nice touch. And I agree with the switch to Plasma Rockets for Supply Ships, since the baby nukes are illegal and not even the traders should be fielding them (a baby nuke is also sorta hard to use).

I do wonder why it was given a Game-Fail ending if you exceed the time limit though. Just put the 20 turn invisible nuke back in it and turn it up to 3000 damage or something. You dont lose the game if your ship and crew are zorched, thats supposed to be a Mars Final Assault thing.

Checked out where baby nukes are at now. Gonna be a whole lot rarer (raider gunships like never happen almost ever). Well if they're needed I guess they can be built. But if you really need to do 300 damage to someone a tank lascannon does 275. So they're basically not a thing anymore.

[legionof1]

snip
I do wonder why it was given a Game-Fail ending if you exceed the time limit though. Just put the 20 turn invisible nuke back in it and turn it up to 3000 damage or something. You dont lose the game if your ship and crew are zorched, thats supposed to be a Mars Final Assault thing.
snip

Well that's almost certainly a bug. ill pass it along.

[username]

I like some of the changes that have been made. The new Shipping Crate is a nice touch. And I agree with the switch to Plasma Rockets for Supply Ships, since the baby nukes are illegal and not even the traders should be fielding them (a baby nuke is also sorta hard to use).

Honestly, enemies equipped with nukes are more of a danger to themselves than you, as they recklessly discharge these weapons without regards for how many of their own guys will be caught in the blast. The result being that they will discharge these things into the side of your dropship, killing half of their entire team but failing to actually harm any of yours.

[RSSwizard]

Well that's almost certainly a bug. ill pass it along.

Yeah Supply Ships are set to Mission Fail rather than Mission Abort.
Turn Limit is set to 10
And there's even a background image explosion and language text that says "see you around next time... somewhere..." or such.

Seems quite intentional.
I hacked my .rul file to set it to 20 turns just because I finish them off quick enough.

If Dioxine doesn't want people harvesting supply ships and just wants people to pay the ~350 monthly infamy for not killing the base... put an SDD strength invisible nuke and set its countdown to 4 turns or something like that. So its still possible but very dicey. Or you could kill a few guys, pry items off of them, then hustle out.

Honestly, enemies equipped with nukes are more of a danger to themselves than you, as they recklessly discharge these weapons without regards for how many of their own guys will be caught in the blast.

This Most Certainly needs to be changed with the Siberia mission because they're almost always underground, and even the dude at the bunker entrance is so easy to kill - if he fires his baby nuke usually it just stays contained (and vertical) to that bunker entrance.

I often see a dude down in the lower level with a baby nuke and it makes him do nothing since he cant seem to calculate any angle where he can safely use it (for his own sake). So he just dies and is a baby-nuke-giver.

I mean I dont know what those stormtroopers could be given to make them as much of an intended hassle to (more than 1 gal at a time).

Maybe a Plasma Scorcher?
It is a one off big mission after all.
Plasma Scorchers break your heart and they're totally deployable.
And its a long time before you can use them, maybe well after Siberia.

[username]

You made the point for exactly why it was removed. The execution made no provision for a unit that should be immune based on physiology, when multiple mods had robots, various cybernetics, or extra dimensional life. It was just click to deal infinite arbitrary damage for flat cost. It also ignored alot of other rules like self destruct, or overkill.

Well, if that damage had a type, then having huge amounts of a damage type would still mean a thing immune to that damage type wouldn't be affected. Otherwise, you could absolutely destroy a robot or a cyborg that lacks the ability to resist you with a knife that you wouldn't otherwise be able to kill in combat. Take an HK. An HK, you'd think, would largely be invulnerable to knifing in combat, and for the most part, it mostly is, having enough resist that all but the luckiest and strongest knife attacks simply bounce off. But if the thing is DOWNED, you could now stab it in the wires. Because now you have plenty of time to precision-target cracks to reach components you couldn't otherwise have hit under combat conditions.

Something like a ghost, on the other hand, might just be straight up immune to being stabbed, period, so whether you're doing 20 stab damage or 20000 stab damage, 100% immunity gives you zero damage.

As for overkill, overkill results in this game are already weird. I can, apparently, disintegrate a Sectopod with a MAG Rocket, which is basically a kinetic strike and thus should not really have the capability to vaporize an opponent.

[RSSwizard]

Well, if that damage had a type, then having huge amounts of a damage type would still mean a thing immune to that damage type wouldn't be affected.

Overkill is similar to items on the ground disappearing when struck.
They have become gibbified. The sectopod struck with a MAG rocket flying apart so violently you cant salvage it. Smithereens man.
Or in the case of items, an explosion kicks the item down the road both destroying it and also rendering it lost in some way (many modern fps games will scatter ground objects like spare guns when hit with an explosion, in Halo Combat Evolved this was the case and there was a chance they were rendered inert even if you tracked them down. Sorry no extra 12 Shotgun Shells for you).

Glad you replied so I dont gotta doublepost.
I have a formal request/idea for Siberia which includes bringing back having your landing craft there (to protect the loot pile). Im putting it in the request bin.

[legionof1]

Yeah Supply Ships are set to Mission Fail rather than Mission Abort.
Turn Limit is set to 10
And there's even a background image explosion and language text that says "see you around next time... somewhere..." or such.
snip

Well i guess a custom game over screen is pretty definitive, shows me for not loseing i guess 
Guess that puts in balance  rather then bug land.

[username]

Wait, you instantly lose the entire game if you run out of turns on a Supply Ship Raid?

That seems weird and doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would you lose the entire game? I never ran out of turns before, but I figured that it was just the timer for when enemy reinforcements would start showing up or something. There doesn't seem to be any logical reason for why there would be such disastrous consequences for failing to clear out a supply ship within only a few turns. Even in a scenario where the entire ship will explode, that doesn't seem like a game-ending disaster (nor is there any logical reason why a supply ship would explode when far more important targets don't).

[RSSwizard]

I never ran out of turns before, but I figured that it was just the timer for when enemy reinforcements would start showing up or something.

originally there was an invisible baby nuke in the bowels of the ship that'd blow after a number of turns, I forget if it was 10 or 16 or 20. It would take out most of the map and erase most of the ship, leaving a few dangling pieces hanging in midair near the cockpit.
And oddly the one time that it got me, the Marsec Bodyguard up in the cockpit was still barely alive after it went off.

Well i guess a custom game over screen is pretty definitive, shows me for not loseing i guess 
Guess that puts in balance  rather then bug land.

 

Code: [Select]

type: STR_SUPPLY_SHIP
 width: 60
 length: 60
 height: 7
 turnLimit: 10
 chronoTrigger: 0 #(0-lose, 1-abort, 2-win)
 loseCutscene: SupplyShipExplodesit has a Lose Cutscene

[username]

This still doesn't explain WHY, though. It's like watching a car drive off a cliff and then explode in midair.

[RSSwizard]

Would like to say...
my updated (aliased) Shiny Niner didn't get put in even though there's been a couple updates since then.

And with the new Truncated fast hit anims it might be a good idea to just use different hit gfx for them specifically designed for being 2, or 3, or 4 frames long. Personally I like the idea of Goldeneye 007 style with that where it shows a golden impact sprite that doesn't evolve. Dare I say that the Doom puff animation (3 frames) is also applicable.