Re: [MAIN] XPiratez - N9.7.7 12-Sep-2024 Second Coming

[Dioxine]

That looks cool. Looks like all the info is there, but what's "Pain [5]"?

That's Morale damage. It is displayed in this vague manner since it's impossible to measure precisely - a lot of factors can influence this, like Bravery. This means that "the base extra morale damage (not counting normal morale loss from being wounded) is 5*hp damage".

[Dioxine]

Will anyone miss the WP grenade being a proxy? I plan to make it a throwable again, but thanks to the Extended mechanics, it can now actually do a lot of damage instantly, in addition to setting people on fire (but probably I'll make it a researchable). Or is a fire trap needed? Actually it is possible to add fire effect to any explosives if desired... I've tried that on a HE pack and it set everything on fire inside the blast radius, including trees and other undamaged terrain features...

[Arthanor]

Incendiary explosives sounds nice. It might be a good thing to have for some special explosives. I feel like the HE Pack migth produce too much of a blast to set stuff on fire? Maybe for some thermite/phosphor higher tech explosives? (I am yet to research Advanced Chemistry, but it sounds like maybe it could unlock some of those fiery explosives?)

As for the WP grenade, I am yet to discover it.. I'll let you know once I have tried it!

[Dioxine]

As for the WP grenade, I am yet to discover it.. I'll let you know once I have tried it!

Oh for the time being, it's basically a store-available fire-damage Proxy grenade.

I'm thinking COV mught be doing that (explosive + fire) to be more FUN, and - certainly the FAE launcher-grenade, available through Adv. Chemistry. Maybe the Baby Nuke as well, and the Nuclear Demo Charge... Chinese Dragon doesn't really need that

[Arthanor]

Oh.. I didn't make the connection. Honestly, I looked at the bootypedia and did not pay much attention to it. HE/Frag Grenades, Satchel charge, Prox, WP and IED are all things I glanced at and dismissed.

HE/Frag are either easy enough to replace with a black powder bomb (seeing the effect immediately is really strong compared to waiting and risking your target surviving and blowing you up on their turn, plus being manufacturable for cheap), and the HE can be looted easily (I have more than I know what to do with, since I still mostly use BPB. I am switching now, since a pre-primed HE is faster to use, I have lots and I am starting to know the enemy better).

Satchel, proxies and IED fall in the too expensive again (HE and then dynamite are good enough to blow cyberdiscs or tanks).

WP.. I'm not sure.. If I use a trap, I'd rather something that kills/maim so hopefully the enemy is taken out or hurt enough to not be too dangerous. Explosives (proxies/IED are sure to explode at ground zero by the very way they work) are likely to do that, setting on fire doesn't. Once you add morale damage to the WP's fire damage (and maybe some instant damage from the pyrotechnics?) it will become interesting, since setting something on fire is likely to panic them = take them out of the fight.

[ivandogovich]

So... did I miss sumthin in the Bootypedia?  WP and IEDs are motion sensitive? 

[Arthanor]

They both say they have a "proximity fuse" or something, which kinda gives it away. And the IED.. It's in the name man! Well, not really, but when I think IED, I think of the buried traps that blow people up..

Thinking a bit more about the WP, we already have the molotov which is ranged instant delivery of incendiary. I think keeping the WP as a trap might be nice. By making it "throwable", do you mean like a regular grenade or like a black powder bomb? I think it could be nice as a "incendiary+explosive" grenade, but as a bomb it risks making both the BPB and the molotov obsolete.

[Dioxine]

Yeah, I meant a quite powerful grenade-type, and researchable at that. I might add a buyable, primitive fire-trap too (not too powerful, yeah, but cheap and damages morale).

I think grenades aren't fully replaced by instant explosives, a grenade has a range advantage, plus you can play "hot potato" with it. But indeed for direct-damage house storming BPB's are the way to go.

[ivandogovich]

<snip> And the IED.. It's in the name man! Well, not really, but when I think IED, I think of the buried traps that blow people up..

Heh. I spent too much time in Iraq.  IED is a buried 155 mm artillery shell to me, or a ton of explosives buried in the road that can crack an M1A1 Tank.  99% of them required an trigger man to overwatch them and set them off. 

I totally missed that in the bootypedia.  I am a big fan of proxies.  I'll have to give these another look.

[pilot00]

Will anyone miss the WP grenade being a proxy? I plan to make it a throwable again, but thanks to the Extended mechanics, it can now actually do a lot of damage instantly, in addition to setting people on fire (but probably I'll make it a researchable). Or is a fire trap needed? Actually it is possible to add fire effect to any explosives if desired... I've tried that on a HE pack and it set everything on fire inside the blast radius, including trees and other undamaged terrain features...

Between manufacturing molotovs and their less weight, I have personally not used it at all. So if it becomes better it might entice me.

Maybe for some thermite/phosphor higher tech explosives? (I am yet to research Advanced Chemistry, but it sounds like maybe it could unlock some of those fiery explosives?)

Arthanor might be into something here. It would be better indeed to have the fusion explosives do inc damage as a plus, than adding it to everything nilly willy. After all they already are powerfull enough as it is (Explosives in general).

Speaking of throwables, is it possible from an engine perspective to mod the acid flask to have a tiny bit of splash? I was thinking something akin to two/three tile coverage nothing huge. I would even argue it should have a small persistent effect of armor reduction or dot but that might be pushing it.

So... did I miss sumthin in the Bootypedia?  WP and IEDs are motion sensitive?

IDEs for sure. I hadnt noticed it too till I used it.

[Dioxine]

Speaking of throwables, is it possible from an engine perspective to mod the acid flask to have a tiny bit of splash? I was thinking something akin to two/three tile coverage nothing huge. I would even argue it should have a small persistent effect of armor reduction or dot but that might be pushing it.

Armor reduction is not a problem, I was going to add it to some acidic weapons for sure. Splash effect is doable too, I think, but it might make the weapon too powerful... Not sure about that. I'd have to reduce the power by 10 at least.

IED is gone anyway. Proxy Grenade is moved up the research tree (and buffed), and instead of those, you have a pretty cheap (as in, a few thousand) Landmine as the only buyable proxy now (with the middle-ground power of around 90).

I wasn't going to add extra fire to everything, just 3 things I've mentioned - underused CoV, unfun FAE grenade, and underpowered Baby Nuke. Not sure if adding this blanket-style to ALL fusion explosives is such a great idea - nuclear demo charge I've mentioned is going to re-use the IED sprite, and it's sort of a middle ground in between Elerium explosives and Fusion explosives. But if you guys think Fusion weapons are so cool they demand extra fire damage, I might do that as well, after all, we're talking about the ultimate weapon tier here.

[Arthanor]

Heh. I spent too much time in Iraq.  IED is a buried 155 mm artillery shell to me, or a ton of explosives buried in the road that can crack an M1A1 Tank.  99% of them required an trigger man to overwatch them and set them off. 

Oh, I didn't realize they were triggered remotely. I thought they had some kind of trigger from weight or vibration or something. I guess it's better to hand trigger them so you can hit what you want. No such mechanic in XCom though, but it'd be interesting. Plant the explosive and on a reaction "action" you can chose to trigger it..?

Armor reduction is not a problem, I was going to add it to some acidic weapons for sure. Splash effect is doable too, I think, but it might make the weapon too powerful... Not sure about that. I'd have to reduce the power by 10 at least.

I think it works as a direct damage item for close range throwing. Unless it is volatile, there is little reason for a flask to make much of a splash.. Reducing armor would be cool.

IED is gone anyway. Proxy Grenade is moved up the research tree (and buffed), and instead of those, you have a pretty cheap (as in, a few thousand) Landmine as the only buyable proxy now (with the middle-ground power of around 90).

90 is quite respectable, sounds like something nice for keeping watch on some corner. And if nothing happens you just recover it at the end of the mission which is also nice.

I wasn't going to add extra fire to everything, just 3 things I've mentioned - underused CoV, unfun FAE grenade, and underpowered Baby Nuke. Not sure if adding this blanket-style to ALL fusion explosives is such a great idea - nuclear demo charge I've mentioned is going to re-use the IED sprite, and it's sort of a middle ground in between Elerium explosives and Fusion explosives. But if you guys think Fusion weapons are so cool they demand extra fire damage, I might do that as well, after all, we're talking about the ultimate weapon tier here.

I actually don't have anything but the explosives you get through cooking by the book! Dynamite and RPG AT rockets are my most advanced ones.. So no idea about Elerium or Fusion ones

What I meant is that it would be interesting as a feature for some explosives, to differentiate them. Maybe for the "middle ground" explosives, where it is an interesting change from the starting ones and the endgame explosives are so powerful they "blow out" the fire. Depending on how that fits with the fluff of each, since I have not discovered it yet.

[pilot00]

I wasn't going to add extra fire to everything, just 3 things I've mentioned - underused CoV, unfun FAE grenade, and underpowered Baby Nuke. Not sure if adding this blanket-style to ALL fusion explosives is such a great idea - nuclear demo charge I've mentioned is going to re-use the IED sprite, and it's sort of a middle ground in between Elerium explosives and Fusion explosives. But if you guys think Fusion weapons are so cool they demand extra fire damage, I might do that as well, after all, we're talking about the ultimate weapon tier here.

My suggestion to add fire to all fusion weapons short of came as a reply to your suggestion to add fire to all explosives, which would make all explosives too much IMHO. But if you feel like fusion would become too powerfull well, either dont add the fire element or tweek them.

I think it works as a direct damage item for close range throwing. Unless it is volatile, there is little reason for a flask to make much of a splash.. Reducing armor would be cool.

If you throw corrossive acids in a vial and the vial breaks it will splash by default and since there is no other way to emulate it can be simulated as a one-two tiles acid type explosition (provided the engine can do this).

I actually don't have anything but the explosives you get through cooking by the book! Dynamite and RPG AT rockets are my most advanced ones.. So no idea about Elerium or Fusion ones

Consider the fact, that right now you get a grenade that does more damage than a high explosive pack and an outrageous tornado shell.

[Arthanor]

If you throw corrossive acids in a vial and the vial breaks it will splash by default and since there is no other way to emulate it can be simulated as a one-two tiles acid type explosition (provided the engine can do this).

I don't know.. even a whole waterballoon doesn't splash that much.. The problem with splash damage is that a near miss is almost as good as a direct hit. I think Yankes has a way to make damage dropoff faster though? It might work well to keep the same damage for a direct hit, but reduce damage to half in neighbour tiles, then it could affect a 3x3 area without being OP (since most of the splash would be absorbed by armor)

[Dioxine]

I've finally decided against the splash, at least for now - the armor damaging effect is simply too awesome in its own right, and I'm afraid of buggy behaviour. Might return to this problem later on, in the balancing phase.

Solarius also gave a controversial idea that EVERY plasma/laser weapon should be setting targets on fire with a powerful enough hit

Finally being more or less happy with the item upgrades, moving to armors. Two major changes upcoming:
1. getting rid of many instances of Melee Res, and replacing it with MeleeDodge (the attacker's chance to hit in melee is reduced by this value)
2. and this is a major thing, differentiating Night Vision ranges! The base values I think of are 9 for an unaided human, and 12 for an unaided pirate/raider. Naturally this will be tricky as hell, since to take an advantage of this invisibility to humans you'll have to disable Personal Lighting and either use a CRT monitor or play in relative darkness I'll see if I could hammer out some sort of muzzle-flash mechanics with Yankes later, which would be even more awesome (firing gives away your position!)