Author Topic: the 80 item limit  (Read 27454 times)

Offline Falko

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Re: What you have done here is a work of art
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2014, 10:34:49 pm »
armors dont need a weight but all items that can be stored (should) have a size just use that value makes no big difference

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: What you have done here is a work of art
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2014, 10:44:44 pm »
Armors already have a weight value, don't they?

Not exactly, but corpses clad in the armour do. Still, this isn't enough to derive the actual armour weight, since these numbers are extremely abstract and do not reflect actual weight, more how easily the body can be dragged or something. (Weight 26 is, like, two heavy firearms.)

And the problem with per-soldier weight is that then you can't bring extra equipment to leave on the Skyranger then, plus it doesn't make much logical sense when ignoring game constraints

True, but there are many abstractions and shortcuts. I think this would be in line with the game philosophy.

niculinux

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Re: the 80 item limit
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2014, 11:04:44 pm »
I really dislike the 80 limit item, but maybe an option to have and configure it may be more challengin and realistic to the game

Offline Yankes

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Re: the 80 item limit
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2014, 11:41:51 pm »
If I had to choose limit, I would prefer per craft limit. Per solder slot is probably simplest solution for that.
I could be easy toggle able and dont need any moder effort to use it. Another point is that flat limit is hurting big crafts like avenger
where you have greater limitation per solder because of that.

Only problem I see with that is how you can fit half of Battleship in your craft? :>
Answer is "You cant", all stuff should be send using transfer window, this will be easy to implements and more realistic.
Another candidate for new option in OXC.

Offline osunightfall

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Re: the 80 item limit
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2014, 09:53:19 am »
Hm, it seems my post has been moved. Perhaps some kindly dev will see it and be inspired by our eloquent arguments. :)

Offline Aldorn

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Re: What you have done here is a work of art
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2014, 11:22:02 am »
As you can see, counting the exact weight is extremely problematic, and would probably be tedious for the player too. I say screw this and let's assume a per soldier value (soldier equipment only).

A per soldier value is interesting, anyway I think a per craft should be easier to manage

Suppose you have a per soldier limit (for example max 10 items per unit on board), have a look at these situations :

1) You go on mission with 10 soldiers, so you are able to load 100 items
During mission, 9 soldiers are killed : will you have to throw away 90 items to be able to go home ?

2) Returning from your last mission with 10 healthy and 4 wounded soldiers
Will you have to unload material as soon as arrived at base ?
Or will you have to unload before starting on next mission ?

Any time you don't have enough available soldiers, you will also have to remove equipment...
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 11:24:08 am by Aldorn »

Offline moriarty

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Re: the 80 item limit
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2014, 02:28:21 pm »
no, Aldorn, you totally misunderstood my proposal.

I'm not suggesting that the equipment weight should be tied to the soldier, but to the craft's soldier capacity

a craft that has a soldier capacity of 14 (skyranger) would have an equipment weight transport capacity of 14*X

a craft that has a soldier capacity of 24 (avenger) would have ans equipment weight transport capacity of 24*X

("X" would have to be set to a reasonable value. heck, we could even give "X" a default value and allow a craft to define a different value)

this is just a way of easily defining a weight capacity without introducing a new value that would have to be defined for each craft

Offline Falko

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Re: the 80 item limit
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2014, 03:13:35 pm »
craft based limit:default=infinity
-its not vanilla!
+it works like it works now no change needed in any mods/existing crafts
+one could include craft-weapon/ammo to the weight and make crafts that are incapable of using plasmabeam
-you have to active an option/mod to make it more vanilla like

soldierspace based limit:default=some X weigth/size value for items per spoldier space
-its not vanilla!
-it changes how the game is now
+i save time not activating a mod/options that enables the limits - that costs at least 2 clicks!

PS:
do you really think adding a ruleset configurable "X"=weight/soldier value is less complex to do than "itemspace"=stuff a craft can carry?

Offline moriarty

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Re: the 80 item limit
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2014, 04:02:19 pm »
PS:
do you really think adding a ruleset configurable "X"=weight/soldier value is less complex to do than "itemspace"=stuff a craft can carry?

the source code changes are equally complex. but it's definitely "less likely to break mods that add or modify craft"

also, it gives each new craft a believable number just like that (because of default value not being an absolute, but dependent on craft soldier capacity). take for example the mods that add soldier carrying capacity to the interceptor. if you add a default value like "itemspace", they would be capable of carrying an insane amount of equipment. likewise, if you add a new "troop carrier" craft with "soldier capacity=40", the default equipment capacity would be way too low.

if the default is "soldiers carried*X", each new craft starts off with a decent value without any need for extra consideration.

Offline Falko

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Re: the 80 item limit
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2014, 04:11:12 pm »
you want your convenience that all crafts get automatic "believable" limits
i want my convenience that all crafts should be limitless [i am more interested in a limitation of craft weapons instead of items (see apocalypse - bigger crafts could use bigger guns)]

the basic question:
limitless: you have to activate an option/mod
limit as default: i have to activate an option/mod

how can we now determine whose convenience is more important :)

Offline Aldorn

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Re: the 80 item limit
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2014, 04:41:07 pm »
if the default is "soldiers carried*X", each new craft starts off with a decent value without any need for extra consideration.
Let's do nothing, and this will stay limitless

Or let's find a way that will satisfy most of community members


Having possibility to specify it for any craft is more modable than specifying a value per soldier place

Per craft, you will be able to set it equal to :
- NumberOfSoldierPlaces x LimitPerSoldierPlaces (also your point of view)
- BaseLimit + NumberOfSoldierPlaces x LimitPerSoldierPlaces
- any other rule you decide to apply
Just calculate it and set it in ruleset once for all

Adding a line in a ruleset, do you really find it too tedious ? I think this is the price to have a game that suits us :P


you want your convenience that all crafts get automatic "believable" limits
i want my convenience that all crafts should be limitless [i am more interested in a limitation of craft weapons instead of items (see apocalypse - bigger crafts could use bigger guns)]

how can we now determine whose convenience is more important :)

Exactly !
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 04:48:51 pm by Aldorn »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: the 80 item limit
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2014, 05:22:00 pm »
Gentlemen, gentlemen, please. Nobody wants the current limitlessness removed. We're only discussing possible additional options. So please don't be afraid of losing your current convenience - it won't be taken away from you.

As for the options, we have:
- 80 items per craft. I think it should be possible, for the vanilla's sake. Seeing how dedicated the team is to keeping everything vanilla - frankly, sometimes I think too dedicated :P - I'm surprised this isn't in. Not that I'd use it myself.
- Soldier capacity * X. What Moriarty explained, and I'm totally supporting his suggestion.
- Per craft (a new variable in the ruleset). It gives you a bit more design freedom, but we also need to resolve the issue of non-vanilla craft - probably assign them a generic value if nothing is entered.

Offline yrizoud

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Re: the 80 item limit
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2014, 05:26:11 pm »
This leaves the question: Do you get more inventory space when the craft is not filled with people/HWP ?

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: the 80 item limit
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2014, 05:28:14 pm »
This leaves the question: Do you get more inventory space when the craft is not filled with people/HWP ?

It is certainly possible to code. I think why not, though I don't care too much.

Offline yrizoud

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Re: the 80 item limit
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2014, 06:10:47 pm »
My point is that each "missing" soldier leaves the equivalent of 80kg free for extra equipment, and this makes a huge difference. If the weight limit per soldier is "6kg", for the skyranger you have choice between:
- 14 soldiers with 6 kg of equipement
- 13 soldiers with 12.15 kg of equipment (6+80/13)
- 12 soldiers with 19.33 kg of equipment (6+80*2/12)
I don't see much choice : almost immediately you'll keep only 13 soldiers, and when you get more numerous things to carry (medikit, spare laser pistols, alien grenades) you'll stay at 12 soldiers and it's basically your soldiers' strength which will set the limit.
--> The end result will be extremely similar to "the skranger carries 12 soldiers and all they can carry"