OpenXcom Forum

OpenXcom => Suggestions => Topic started by: osunightfall on June 17, 2014, 08:57:26 pm

Title: the 80 item limit
Post by: osunightfall on June 17, 2014, 08:57:26 pm
Guys, it's been a long, long ride. I think I never really believed this project would be finished. I've seen it here and there over the years, always in progress, with completion always a long way off. And now, out of the blue, I see that it's complete. Congratulations! I just...I couldn't be happier. This project means a lot to a great many people, and I'm one of them. I'll be hitting up the donate button later today. You all deserve it.

While I'm at it though, I do have two small pieces of feedback. Other than the feedback of "I absolutely love practically everything you've done, and it's amazing."

1. If I understand the differences page correctly, the blaster launcher and other waypoint based weapons that may be created no longer have limited waypoints. I'm curious about the rationale behind this decision. The blaster launcher was by far the most powerful and perhaps even broken weapon in the game. The only tiny, tiny balancing factor other than weight was that it only had 9 waypoints. Was it really necessary to make it even more capable of completing missions on its own?

2. I notice that the 80 item limit has been removed from the equipment slots on transports. This is good...to a point. But it seems a little silly and kind of broken that I can literally bring hundreds of weapons and pieces of equipment on board and always pick the best stuff immediately before and during missions. I realize that since this is a change to the classic game, opinions will differ on how much gear is too much, but perhaps a configurable item limit could be implemented? And perhaps it could default back to 80 items, as in the original? Bug or not, it was an important factor in how the balance of the game played out.

Other than that, OpenXCom seems utterly fantastic. This project proves that dreams can come true.
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: clownagent on June 17, 2014, 11:17:54 pm
Why should there be an implemented item limit?

If you only want to take 80 items on your missions, just do it. No mechanism is forcing you to take more items with you.
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: osunightfall on June 17, 2014, 11:31:55 pm
Simply for two reasons, in my opinion. First, because it was a condition present in the original game. Regardless of the reason for its being in the game, it was an engine limitation, not a bug per se. There is even an in-game message that will tell you that you can only carry 80 items on the plane. This is not like the 'Paying for Dirt' bug or 'Firestorm fuel calculation' bug where it's just something that slipped by the developers. If the objective is to be true to the original game whilst fixing bugs, then at the very least the 80 item limit exists in a grey area between bug and "intended because of memory limitations." I hope you will at least grant me that if memory limitations had not restricted the items carried to 80, that the limit the developers chose would not have been "infinity."

Secondly, while I agree that I could manually restrict myself to an arbitrary limit of items, it would get rather tedious trying to manually count items every time I try to alter loadouts or resupply the planes. I agree wholeheartedly with any number of bug-fixes. However, my argument is that this falls into a somewhat different category. Purists might prefer to leave it alone, and even in my case, where I think 80 is a little too stringent, I would prefer a configurable hard limit.

Please keep in mind however, that I am only talking about restricting the amount of items available in UFO capture missions. I do not think that base defense missions should be affected by any limit at all. Base defense being restricted to 80 items was certainly the 80 item limitation rearing its head in another fashion. Even then, it would've probably been acceptable if you'd had any control over what those 80 items were. The fact that you didn't was either a legitimately overlooked bug or a compromise made for time or budget reasons.

I hope this has answered your question.
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: pmprog on June 17, 2014, 11:39:24 pm
Quote from: osunightfall on June 17, 2014, 08:57:26 pm
2. I notice that the 80 item limit has been removed from the equipment slots on transports. This is good...to a point. But it seems a little silly and kind of broken that I can literally bring hundreds of weapons and pieces of equipment on board and always pick the best stuff immediately before and during missions. I realize that since this is a change to the classic game, opinions will differ on how much gear is too much, but perhaps a configurable item limit could be implemented? And perhaps it could default back to 80 items, as in the original? Bug or not, it was an important factor in how the balance of the game played out.
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=340.msg2615#msg2615
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=1659.0
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: osunightfall on June 17, 2014, 11:50:39 pm
Quote from: pmprog on June 17, 2014, 11:39:24 pm
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=340.msg2615#msg2615
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=1659.0

If they have already considered these issues and rejected a configurable limit, that is fine. I would still maintain however, that this falls too far into the territory of "mod" rather than "bug fix". Even other XCom launchers that removed the 80 item limit generally only extended it. Also, having the plane add to base stores does not fix the opposite problem. If I load every single man of my 24 man squad down with two weapons, multiple clips, flares, several grenades apiece, 40 or 50 blaster bombs, and so forth, my squad is now far more powerful than it could ever have been in the original game. This is not simply a matter of convenience as with so many of OpenXCom's fixes. Rather, it changes in a very serious way some of the fundamental balance of the game. That is the reason I asked for a hard limit.

If someone in authority rejects my reasoning, I'll accept that, but I still believe my reasoning is correct. While it is certainly possible to self-police, due to the fiddly nature of equipping transports it is far from optimal. I agree with one of the posters in the quoted threads. Some kind of limit, even if decided by the user, increases strategy and reins in the power of squads. One would have to decide for example: Is it worth giving up our proximity grenades to take flares for a night mission? Similarly, as mods begin to become more common, having a hard limit increases options for design. To cite an example, You might have a very powerful weapon with bulky clips, each of which is worth only one shot. Then you have a choice to make. How many of these is it worth it for me to take, and what am I giving up in return? To a degree we already see this behavior in the base game with rockets and blaster bombs. In a game that is largely about management, I would hate to lose this sort of strategic problem entirely, even if I do agree that 80 items is a bit too low, and that its effects on base defense missions were crippling.
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: osunightfall on June 18, 2014, 12:06:37 am
And, as I think about it, more possibilities occur to me. For example, one of the great things about the hyperwave decoder is that it tells you what kinds of aliens inhabit a certain craft. This could also sometimes influence what you might bring on a mission, especially early on. For example, bringing extra proximity grenades and incendiaries for a Chrysalid mission, or extra AP rockets against Mutons. There are many other examples as well. The point being, that knowing what you were going to face with the hyperwave decoder was a noticeable, though often under-used advantage of that device. Now, I can carry every weapon that could possibly be useful against every enemy, and know ahead of time that I'll always have exactly the right weapon for the job, even when I have no idea of what I'm facing.
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Aldorn on June 18, 2014, 12:24:45 am
Quote from: osunightfall on June 17, 2014, 08:57:26 pm
2. I notice that the 80 item limit has been removed from the equipment slots on transports. This is good...to a point. But it seems a little silly and kind of broken that I can literally bring hundreds of weapons and pieces of equipment on board and always pick the best stuff immediately before and during missions. I realize that since this is a change to the classic game, opinions will differ on how much gear is too much, but perhaps a configurable item limit could be implemented? And perhaps it could default back to 80 items, as in the original? Bug or not, it was an important factor in how the balance of the game played out.
I am personally happy with this "no limit" as I considered in the past this 80-limit was a nonsense
Especially when I tried to load 20 pistol clips and 60 rifle clips, and had also no free place anymore to take any other weapon : this is not as if I was trying to load 80 rocket-launchers...

But I agree this was a constraint that was part of the game and you are right to say removing this limit changes the game balancing

Would it be not more logical to implement a limit in terms of storage capacity (I mean taking item size into account) instead of number of items ?

Quote from: pmprog on June 17, 2014, 11:39:24 pm
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=340.msg2615#msg2615
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=1659.0

Right, question already discussed
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: osunightfall on June 18, 2014, 12:41:10 am
Quote from: Aldorn on June 18, 2014, 12:24:45 am
I am personally happy with this "no limit" as I considered in the past this 80-limit was a nonsense
Especially when I tried to load 20 pistol clips and 60 rifle clips, and had also no free place anymore to take any other weapon : this is not as if I was trying to load 80 rocket-launchers...

But I agree this was a constraint that was part of the game and you are right to say removing this limit changes the game balancing

Would it be not more logical to implement a limit in terms of storage capacity (I mean taking item size into account) instead of number of items ?

Right, question already discussed

It surely would be more logical, but this strays ever farther into the territory of "modding."

Another scenario that occurred to me was, with some kind of limit, and the 80 item limit in the main game, there was another strategic decision that came up. With a squad of 24 men, it was generally the case that you knew those 24 men would be spread thin in terms of equipment. You might get, say, a plasma weapon, one clip, and a grenade, with a few more items for spice. However! If you decided you wanted better armed, more elite troops, now there are more decisions to be made. You might purposefully take less men in total in order to better equip those that did come along. This gives the player another reason to use the sometimes maligned HWPs. Or, perhaps you might decide to switch to laser weaponry, specifically to save yourself another 24 items on clips. Now, you've traded some firepower in order to be more versatile. Or you might combine the two, both replacing some men with HWPs, and also choosing to use laser weaponry. Now, you have soldiers that are equipped for a wide variety of situations, but you've sacrificed both pure firepower and boots on the ground (keeping in mind that trained soldiers own HPWs) in order to bring along more secondary equipment. These are the types of decisions you'd expect to see in a game of this type; it's merely happenstance that in X-Com they exist because of an oddly implemented limit on total carried items. I would argue however, that if the nature of the decisions is correct to the game, it doesn't matter that the reason you're making them is to avoid an arbitrary item limit. Really the absurdities only reveal themselves when you start trying to carry 150 rifle clips into battle or give every soldier a half-dozen grenades, three clips, a stun prod, and flares.

The point I'm trying to make in general is, simply removing the item limit wholesale rather than making it more configurable is not quite so obvious a choice as it might seem at first. The item limit had many effects on the game that affected the way one played, and similarly, removing it also has many effects on gameplay, both good and bad.

However, if adding a configurable item limit to transports is too difficult or otherwise not worth the time, perhaps a compromise? A simple counter of total items on the plane in the equip transport screen. This would make it easier on those of us who would like to preserve the kinds of strategic decisions discussed above, whilst not putting entirely on us the responsibility of self-policing item count by manually adding up line-items on the equip screen.
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Aldorn on June 18, 2014, 03:11:50 am
Your point is interesting

A work around I am using is to raise item weights up (Pistol 10, Rifle 20, Clip 5, Rocket Launcher 30, Rocket 10, ...) and down raise clip sizes (Pistol 6, Rifle 8, Sniper Rifle 2, ...)

This way :
- soldiers have no possibility to carry many weapons nor ammunition. They have to make a choice on which weapon/ammunition to carry on, and wait for their strength to increase to be able to use more powerful weapons
- some Medics have to be appointed, and one or two units reserved for logistic purposes (carry/bring rockets etc)
- material on board is also usable, but units have to go back to craft

But I agree with you, from a pure strategic point of view, it is not exactly the same, and possibility to set a limit (-1 for no limit) would be a nice to have
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Falko on June 18, 2014, 03:15:58 am
if such thing is implemented i would prefer an OPTIONAL weight/size limit instead of an itemlimit
and have a ruleset parameter to create small lightweight transporter and big (slower?) ones
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Warboy1982 on June 18, 2014, 04:41:57 am
you make a compelling argument, but perhaps a WEIGHT limit would be better than a "number of items" limit?
also, don't worry too much about the blaster launcher, the AI has limits imposed on the number of waypoints it is allowed to use based on difficulty
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Hobbes on June 18, 2014, 06:38:16 am
Quote from: osunightfall on June 18, 2014, 12:41:10 am
Another scenario that occurred to me was, with some kind of limit, and the 80 item limit in the main game, there was another strategic decision that came up. With a squad of 24 men, it was generally the case that you knew those 24 men would be spread thin in terms of equipment. You might get, say, a plasma weapon, one clip, and a grenade, with a few more items for spice. However! If you decided you wanted better armed, more elite troops, now there are more decisions to be made. You might purposefully take less men in total in order to better equip those that did come along. This gives the player another reason to use the sometimes maligned HWPs. Or, perhaps you might decide to switch to laser weaponry, specifically to save yourself another 24 items on clips. Now, you've traded some firepower in order to be more versatile. Or you might combine the two, both replacing some men with HWPs, and also choosing to use laser weaponry. Now, you have soldiers that are equipped for a wide variety of situations, but you've sacrificed both pure firepower and boots on the ground (keeping in mind that trained soldiers own HPWs) in order to bring along more secondary equipment. These are the types of decisions you'd expect to see in a game of this type; it's merely happenstance that in X-Com they exist because of an oddly implemented limit on total carried items. I would argue however, that if the nature of the decisions is correct to the game, it doesn't matter that the reason you're making them is to avoid an arbitrary item limit. Really the absurdities only reveal themselves when you start trying to carry 150 rifle clips into battle or give every soldier a half-dozen grenades, three clips, a stun prod, and flares.

The point I'm trying to make in general is, simply removing the item limit wholesale rather than making it more configurable is not quite so obvious a choice as it might seem at first. The item limit had many effects on the game that affected the way one played, and similarly, removing it also has many effects on gameplay, both good and bad.

However, if adding a configurable item limit to transports is too difficult or otherwise not worth the time, perhaps a compromise? A simple counter of total items on the plane in the equip transport screen. This would make it easier on those of us who would like to preserve the kinds of strategic decisions discussed above, whilst not putting entirely on us the responsibility of self-policing item count by manually adding up line-items on the equip screen.

I completely agree with everything said up here.

Yes, the item limit could be annoying, specially during base defense missions where you could end up equipped with only Stun Rods and Flares and I'd say to remove it on that kind of mission since it's nonsense.

But having to choose between 80 items when equipping the Skyranger/Lightning/Avenger is a different matter since it forces you to make hard choices (extra rocket or sidearm? Flares or ammo? HWP or items for 4 soldiers?).

But to me the issue could be solved by adding an option to choose between:
a) Having no 80 items limit
b) Limit applies only to craft
c) Limit applies to craft and base defense

And you can even add more options:
d) Limit for the Skyranger is 80 items, 100 for the Lightning and 120 for the Avenger.
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: davide on June 18, 2014, 07:36:28 am
and all setting should be customizable at least in a ruleset so all people will be happy ;)
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: osunightfall on June 18, 2014, 07:58:56 am
Quote from: Warboy1982 on June 18, 2014, 04:41:57 am
you make a compelling argument, but perhaps a WEIGHT limit would be better than a "number of items" limit?
also, don't worry too much about the blaster launcher, the AI has limits imposed on the number of waypoints it is allowed to use based on difficulty

I certainly agree that were I designing the game today from the ground up, a weight limit would be by far the better option. The reason I propose an (optional) return of the item limit is simply to adhere more closely to the original game whilst also preserving certain strategic decisions. A weight limit also imposes another problem, in that one would have to re-examine the weights for all carryable items. I've heard that a lot of the weights don't make a lot of sense, but I admit I haven't looked at it myself.

My comments with regards to the blaster launcher weren't because I was afraid of misuse by the AI. Rather, it was already an incredibly powerful tool in the hands in the player, certainly the most powerful in the game. My concern is that giving it more waypoints merely boosts its power further, though I admit that on most maps, 9 waypoints was enough to do practically anything already.

Thanks to everyone in the thread for your consideration of my points. And if I haven't said it enough already, thank you especially to the entire team of OpenXCom. After playing for a while, this recreation of X-Com is better than I could ever have hoped. Everyone involved deserves the most sincere thanks of X-Com fans everywhere.

Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: pmprog on June 18, 2014, 09:37:04 am
Quote from: Warboy1982 on June 18, 2014, 04:41:57 am
you make a compelling argument, but perhaps a WEIGHT limit would be better than a "number of items" limit?
Isn't there already a weight limit - soldiers can only carry so much, and the skyranger can only contain a certain amount too. Or have I missed something?
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Jstank on June 18, 2014, 09:54:16 am
Didn't the item limit have other ramifications as well. Say you have 60 items on the floor of the sky ranger. Then you killed 10 aliens who dropped 20 items. Wouldn't some of the corpses disappear due to the arbitrary item limit.  This bug may not seem like a big deal until you think about capturing a commander....

If what you're saying is true then shouldn't you have to choose what items you want to carry home with you based on the item limit?


Just a thought...
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: moriarty on June 18, 2014, 10:42:31 am
Quote from: pmprog on June 18, 2014, 09:37:04 am
Isn't there already a weight limit - soldiers can only carry so much, and the skyranger can only contain a certain amount too. Or have I missed something?

soldiers - yes

craft - no

currently, it is possible to load a craft with everything you have in your base.

I agree with the OP. while the 80-item-limit is very artificial, some kind of limit does add to the decision-making part of the game. It is kind of hard to implement this in a way that is consistent with the vanilla feeling though... so the "advanced option" approach would probably be best.

I vote for the following:

advanced option: loadout limits:
1) (default) 80 item limit for craft, no limit for base defense
2) (vanilla) 80 item limit for all missions
3) no item limits
4) craft loadouts limited by weight


my reasoning: some people might actually want a "full vanilla" feeling, hence #2.
item limit in base defense makes no sense at all, hence #1 (as-vanilla-as-possible-without-being-really stupid)
we don't have engine limitations, hence #3
for a "realistic" approach, an equipment weight restriction makes the most sense, hence #4

(for #4, perhaps it would make sense to calculate the weight limit by multiplying available soldier spaces by a certain "equipment weight per soldier" number? I wouldn't want to add another number to the craft ruleset, so this is probably the easiest solution)
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Falko on June 18, 2014, 11:42:17 am
Quote from: moriarty on June 18, 2014, 10:42:31 am
I wouldn't want to add another number to the craft ruleset, so this is probably the easiest solution)
why? do we have a item weight or a item size (both are defined for items weight - how much can a user carry, size how much space in storage is used) only if we use the size item-parameter make the inclusion of soldier-spaces any sense)
an ruleset entry "cancarryspace/weight:-1" = -1 default = infinity
adding to that comes you add the craft-weapons to the weight/space requirements
that way a mod that makes plasmabeam or fusion launcher heavier/bigger so it cant be used an interceptor but only on newer crafts (firestorm has no soldier places)
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: moriarty on June 18, 2014, 03:00:17 pm
Quote from: Falko on June 18, 2014, 11:42:17 am
why? do we have a item weight or a item size (both are defined for items weight - how much can a user carry, size how much space in storage is used) only if we use the size item-parameter make the inclusion of soldier-spaces any sense)
an ruleset entry "cancarryspace/weight:-1" = -1 default = infinity
adding to that comes you add the craft-weapons to the weight/space requirements
that way a mod that makes plasmabeam or fusion launcher heavier/bigger so it cant be used an interceptor but only on newer crafts (firestorm has no soldier places)

I'm not sure I get what you are saying. I was trying to suggest an easy way to define how much equipment a craft can carry - so we don't have to go and define a value for every craft (including updating all modded and new craft!). My proposal is that every craft can carry a certain weight of equipment per soldier it can carry. A craft that carries a maximum of 20 soldiers can carry twice as much stuff as a craft that carries a maximum of 10 soldiers. simple as that.

factoring the inventory size of the item into that makes everything unnecessarily complicated IMHO.

you are suggesting that the craft weapons should also be factored into the weight the craft can carry? now that's an interesting point, but something completely different... it would also make sense that for example plasma beams can only be used by craft with UFO power sources...
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Falko on June 18, 2014, 03:13:11 pm
Quote from: moriarty on June 18, 2014, 03:00:17 pm
so we don't have to go and define a value for every craft (including updating all modded and new craft!).
For that we have default values
and this default values should be "infinity" (-1)
exactly because nobody will update all existing mods
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: moriarty on June 18, 2014, 04:33:49 pm
so assuming you want to play with reasonable limitations, you have to manually change the values for the default craft, or create a ruleset that modifies the default craft. and if you also want to use mods, you have to go through each craft ruleset (or, if the craft is part of a larger mod, through those huge rulesets as well) and manually add a reasonable value for each craft.

I think my approach would be easier, and even believable to a certain degree. it is reasonable to assume that a troop carrier is designed so that a certain weight is assumed per "soldier + equipment", because that is what engineers do when designing stuff.
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Falko on June 18, 2014, 04:37:22 pm
you think the default should be some arbitrary limit
i think the default should be limitless
that is (just) a matter of opinion and its unlikely that you can change my mind
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Aldorn on June 18, 2014, 04:57:12 pm
Quote from: moriarty on June 18, 2014, 04:33:49 pm
so assuming you want to play with reasonable limitations, you have to manually change the values for the default craft, or create a ruleset that modifies the default craft. and if you also want to use mods, you have to go through each craft ruleset (or, if the craft is part of a larger mod, through those huge rulesets as well) and manually add a reasonable value for each craft.

I think my approach would be easier, and even believable to a certain degree. it is reasonable to assume that a troop carrier is designed so that a certain weight is assumed per "soldier + equipment", because that is what engineers do when designing stuff.
I agree with Falko, I would have made a similar proposition

Reality is that OpenXcom is now limitless, the best way to add such an option is to define a default value that does not change this behaviour

Regarding your arguments of many modifications to be made, if someone want to apply a limitation, I am 90% sure it will not be a problem for him to upgrade all mods, as far has he will be so happy to have this possibility
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: moriarty on June 18, 2014, 04:58:06 pm
hmm, wait a second, we are obviously arguing past each other here... I was suggesting "default" as "80 items" because it is vanilla. I don't mind setting "default" to "no limit", but when this whole project was started, the primary goal was "re-create vanilla". removing the 80-item-limitation was seen as "removing an engine limitation", but strong points have been made here that having a limitation is actually a part of the game mechanics that makes sense in itself.

yes, the limitation thing is totally personal opinion, but in that case we have always gone with "default=vanilla".

I was then suggesting that we don't add a limit per craft, because I think that would complicate matters. Instead we should come up with a formula that allows us to assign a reasonable limit for each craft (already existing and yet-to-be-designed) that makes sense and can be determined from existing data.

so, Falko, what exactly do you want to do? leave everything as it is, despite the valid points brought up in this thread? if no, do you really want to add yet another ruleset item for each craft? or perhaps you have a completely different and better idea?

[EDIT:]
oh, and I'd love to make "my idea / weight based limit" the default option, but vanilla behavior has always been the main goal...
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Falko on June 18, 2014, 05:32:57 pm
in my opinion the 80 items limit were more bug then feature (its a bit of a grey area)
again i am not against creating some limit (i even suggested using the weight/size parameter instead just number 5 rifle clips are smaller than one blaster launcher)
but as i already said (based on my understanding of "bug or feature") i think the dfault should be limitless
in regard to vanilla: i have so many options enabled (even without mods) that i would not want to play pure vanilla anymore
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Tarvis on June 18, 2014, 09:32:07 pm
The 80 item limit was a limitation more than a feature. Here's my rationale behind this conclusion:


But, I do agree that there should be some limit.
If it was re-implemented, it should be based on weight, because a pistol clip should not take the same amount of space as rocket launchers. I also think each craft should have their own amount of storage (Firestorm < Skyranger < Avenger). Otherwise what's the point of the "Space Available" field if it's infinite?
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 18, 2014, 09:38:13 pm
I'm not sure which option would be best, but if there would be a weight system, then I strongly support the "x kg per soldier" version. I agree that it would be easiest to code in, wouldn't require mod update and is reasonable.
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Tarvis on June 18, 2014, 10:00:02 pm
I disagree, I think the weight should be based on craft. Of course, soldiers would reduce how much weight is available since they also take up space.
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 18, 2014, 10:06:08 pm
Quote from: Tarvis on June 18, 2014, 10:00:02 pm
I disagree, I think the weight should be based on craft. Of course, soldiers would reduce how much weight is available since they also take up space.

OK, then we need to add a new variable to every craft. No big deal, but what about old rulesets? There should be at least a default value that applies when there's no specified max weight.

Furthermore, if we go down to this level of detail, then we need to specify weight of each armour, for example:

Personal Armour: 10 kg
Power Suit: 120 kg
Flying Suit: 130 kg

Plus 80 kg per person.

But then what about new, custom armours? Should we assume a default value too? What would it be, since it can vary so much?

And what about tanks? Do they have a constant weight, say 200 kg? Then what about custom tanks that are obviously different, like the 1x1 scout drone by Arpia?

As you can see, counting the exact weight is extremely problematic, and would probably be tedious for the player too. I say screw this and let's assume a per soldier value (soldier equipment only).
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Tarvis on June 18, 2014, 10:28:31 pm
Armors already have a weight value, don't they?

And the problem with per-soldier weight is that then you can't bring extra equipment to leave on the Skyranger then, plus it doesn't make much logical sense when ignoring game constraints
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Falko on June 18, 2014, 10:34:49 pm
armors dont need a weight but all items that can be stored (should) have a size just use that value makes no big difference
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 18, 2014, 10:44:44 pm
Quote from: Tarvis on June 18, 2014, 10:28:31 pm
Armors already have a weight value, don't they?

Not exactly, but corpses clad in the armour do. Still, this isn't enough to derive the actual armour weight, since these numbers are extremely abstract and do not reflect actual weight, more how easily the body can be dragged or something. (Weight 26 is, like, two heavy firearms.)

Quote from: Tarvis on June 18, 2014, 10:28:31 pm
And the problem with per-soldier weight is that then you can't bring extra equipment to leave on the Skyranger then, plus it doesn't make much logical sense when ignoring game constraints

True, but there are many abstractions and shortcuts. I think this would be in line with the game philosophy.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: niculinux on June 18, 2014, 11:04:44 pm
I really dislike the 80 limit item, but maybe an option to have and configure it may be more challengin and realistic to the game
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Yankes on June 18, 2014, 11:41:51 pm
If I had to choose limit, I would prefer per craft limit. Per solder slot is probably simplest solution for that.
I could be easy toggle able and dont need any moder effort to use it. Another point is that flat limit is hurting big crafts like avenger
where you have greater limitation per solder because of that.

Only problem I see with that is how you can fit half of Battleship in your craft? :>
Answer is "You cant", all stuff should be send using transfer window, this will be easy to implements and more realistic.
Another candidate for new option in OXC.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: osunightfall on June 19, 2014, 09:53:19 am
Hm, it seems my post has been moved. Perhaps some kindly dev will see it and be inspired by our eloquent arguments. :)
Title: Re: What you have done here is a work of art
Post by: Aldorn on June 19, 2014, 11:22:02 am
Quote from: Solarius Scorch on June 18, 2014, 10:06:08 pm
As you can see, counting the exact weight is extremely problematic, and would probably be tedious for the player too. I say screw this and let's assume a per soldier value (soldier equipment only).

A per soldier value is interesting, anyway I think a per craft should be easier to manage

Suppose you have a per soldier limit (for example max 10 items per unit on board), have a look at these situations :

1) You go on mission with 10 soldiers, so you are able to load 100 items
During mission, 9 soldiers are killed : will you have to throw away 90 items to be able to go home ?

2) Returning from your last mission with 10 healthy and 4 wounded soldiers
Will you have to unload material as soon as arrived at base ?
Or will you have to unload before starting on next mission ?

Any time you don't have enough available soldiers, you will also have to remove equipment...
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: moriarty on June 19, 2014, 02:28:21 pm
no, Aldorn, you totally misunderstood my proposal.

I'm not suggesting that the equipment weight should be tied to the soldier, but to the craft's soldier capacity

a craft that has a soldier capacity of 14 (skyranger) would have an equipment weight transport capacity of 14*X

a craft that has a soldier capacity of 24 (avenger) would have ans equipment weight transport capacity of 24*X

("X" would have to be set to a reasonable value. heck, we could even give "X" a default value and allow a craft to define a different value)

this is just a way of easily defining a weight capacity without introducing a new value that would have to be defined for each craft
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Falko on June 19, 2014, 03:13:35 pm
craft based limit:default=infinity
-its not vanilla!
+it works like it works now no change needed in any mods/existing crafts
+one could include craft-weapon/ammo to the weight and make crafts that are incapable of using plasmabeam
-you have to active an option/mod to make it more vanilla like

soldierspace based limit:default=some X weigth/size value for items per spoldier space
-its not vanilla!
-it changes how the game is now
+i save time not activating a mod/options that enables the limits - that costs at least 2 clicks!

PS:
do you really think adding a ruleset configurable "X"=weight/soldier value is less complex to do than "itemspace"=stuff a craft can carry?
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: moriarty on June 19, 2014, 04:02:19 pm
Quote from: Falko on June 19, 2014, 03:13:35 pm
PS:
do you really think adding a ruleset configurable "X"=weight/soldier value is less complex to do than "itemspace"=stuff a craft can carry?

the source code changes are equally complex. but it's definitely "less likely to break mods that add or modify craft"

also, it gives each new craft a believable number just like that (because of default value not being an absolute, but dependent on craft soldier capacity). take for example the mods that add soldier carrying capacity to the interceptor. if you add a default value like "itemspace", they would be capable of carrying an insane amount of equipment. likewise, if you add a new "troop carrier" craft with "soldier capacity=40", the default equipment capacity would be way too low.

if the default is "soldiers carried*X", each new craft starts off with a decent value without any need for extra consideration.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Falko on June 19, 2014, 04:11:12 pm
you want your convenience that all crafts get automatic "believable" limits
i want my convenience that all crafts should be limitless [i am more interested in a limitation of craft weapons instead of items (see apocalypse - bigger crafts could use bigger guns)]

the basic question:
limitless: you have to activate an option/mod
limit as default: i have to activate an option/mod

how can we now determine whose convenience is more important :)
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Aldorn on June 19, 2014, 04:41:07 pm
Quote from: moriarty on June 19, 2014, 04:02:19 pm
if the default is "soldiers carried*X", each new craft starts off with a decent value without any need for extra consideration.
Let's do nothing, and this will stay limitless

Or let's find a way that will satisfy most of community members


Having possibility to specify it for any craft is more modable than specifying a value per soldier place

Per craft, you will be able to set it equal to :
- NumberOfSoldierPlaces x LimitPerSoldierPlaces (also your point of view)
- BaseLimit + NumberOfSoldierPlaces x LimitPerSoldierPlaces
- any other rule you decide to apply
Just calculate it and set it in ruleset once for all

Adding a line in a ruleset, do you really find it too tedious ? I think this is the price to have a game that suits us :P


Quote from: Falko on June 19, 2014, 04:11:12 pm
you want your convenience that all crafts get automatic "believable" limits
i want my convenience that all crafts should be limitless [i am more interested in a limitation of craft weapons instead of items (see apocalypse - bigger crafts could use bigger guns)]

how can we now determine whose convenience is more important :)

Exactly !
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 19, 2014, 05:22:00 pm
Gentlemen, gentlemen, please. Nobody wants the current limitlessness removed. We're only discussing possible additional options. So please don't be afraid of losing your current convenience - it won't be taken away from you.

As for the options, we have:
- 80 items per craft. I think it should be possible, for the vanilla's sake. Seeing how dedicated the team is to keeping everything vanilla - frankly, sometimes I think too dedicated :P - I'm surprised this isn't in. Not that I'd use it myself.
- Soldier capacity * X. What Moriarty explained, and I'm totally supporting his suggestion.
- Per craft (a new variable in the ruleset). It gives you a bit more design freedom, but we also need to resolve the issue of non-vanilla craft - probably assign them a generic value if nothing is entered.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: yrizoud on June 19, 2014, 05:26:11 pm
This leaves the question: Do you get more inventory space when the craft is not filled with people/HWP ?
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 19, 2014, 05:28:14 pm
Quote from: yrizoud on June 19, 2014, 05:26:11 pm
This leaves the question: Do you get more inventory space when the craft is not filled with people/HWP ?

It is certainly possible to code. I think why not, though I don't care too much.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: yrizoud on June 19, 2014, 06:10:47 pm
My point is that each "missing" soldier leaves the equivalent of 80kg free for extra equipment, and this makes a huge difference. If the weight limit per soldier is "6kg", for the skyranger you have choice between:
- 14 soldiers with 6 kg of equipement
- 13 soldiers with 12.15 kg of equipment (6+80/13)
- 12 soldiers with 19.33 kg of equipment (6+80*2/12)
I don't see much choice : almost immediately you'll keep only 13 soldiers, and when you get more numerous things to carry (medikit, spare laser pistols, alien grenades) you'll stay at 12 soldiers and it's basically your soldiers' strength which will set the limit.
--> The end result will be extremely similar to "the skranger carries 12 soldiers and all they can carry"
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: osunightfall on June 19, 2014, 06:20:00 pm
Yes, I think it is important to note that nobody is suggesting changing OpenXCom's default behavior of "infinite items on transports." Rather, my original suggestion was to re-instate a configurable item limit that would apply to all craft. Others have proposed more ambitious, weight-based ideas, sometimes on a per-craft basis. If I were designing the game today, I'd certainly try to implement such a system. However, my original suggestion was intended from a curatorial standpoint. If OpenXCom sees curation as an important part of its mission, then I think that their current implementation has failed to meet this goal. This is not even mentioning the simplification of strategic decisions discussed above.

Not that I don't love OpenXCom. Let's not get the wrong idea here.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Falko on June 19, 2014, 06:29:05 pm
Quote from: osunightfall on June 17, 2014, 08:57:26 pm
And perhaps it could default back to 80 items, as in the original?
i am sorry i misread you
i have nothing against the inclusion of an optional limit
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: moriarty on June 19, 2014, 06:31:52 pm
well, I guess the easiest way to do it is really to define a "number of equipment items that can be transported" value per craft. the default value is open for heated discussion :)

then, if you want to have vanilla feeling, you can add "itemLimit=80" for each craft. and if you want something more believable, you can set individual limits.

(I'd still like it to be more... "sophisticated"... but I guess for now, easier is better ;) )
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 19, 2014, 07:05:36 pm
Quote from: yrizoud on June 19, 2014, 06:10:47 pm
My point is that each "missing" soldier leaves the equivalent of 80kg free for extra equipment, and this makes a huge difference.

A lightly armoured soldier. Power Suit looks to be at least over 100 kg, plus the person inside. This makes such calculations a bit more... challenging. Otherwise I'd vote for this. ;)
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: moriarty on June 19, 2014, 07:27:52 pm
yeah, with this we run again into the "game weight != mass" problem... the "weight" used in the game is more representative of "encumbrance value" than actual mass.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Falko on June 19, 2014, 07:49:35 pm
compare size and weight
('CIVF_CORPSE', 50, -1)
('STR_SNAKEMAN_CORPSE', 40, 0.4)
('STR_MUTON_CORPSE', 40, 0.4)
('STR_SILACOID_CORPSE', 40, 0.4)
('STR_CHRYSSALID_CORPSE', 40, 0.4)
('STR_CELATID_CORPSE', 35, 0.4)
('STR_SECTOID_CORPSE', 30, 0.4)
('CIVM_CORPSE', 30, -1)
('STR_CORPSE_SUIT', 26, -1)
('STR_ETHEREAL_CORPSE', 25, 0.4)
('STR_CORPSE_ARMOR', 24, -1)
('STR_CORPSE', 22, -1)
('STR_FLOATER_CORPSE', 20, 0.4)
('STR_AUTO_CANNON', 19, 0.3)
('STR_HEAVY_CANNON', 18, 0.3)
('STR_HEAVY_LASER', 18, 0.3)
('STR_BLASTER_LAUNCHER', 16, 0.3)
('STR_ROCKET_LAUNCHER', 10, 0.4)
('STR_PSI_AMP', 10, 0.1)
('STR_SMALL_LAUNCHER', 10, 0.2)
('STR_RIFLE', 8, 0.2)
('STR_LARGE_ROCKET', 8, 0.2)
('STR_INCENDIARY_ROCKET', 8, 0.2)
('STR_LASER_RIFLE', 8, 0.2)
('STR_HEAVY_PLASMA', 8, 0.2)
('STR_LASER_PISTOL', 7, 0.1)
('STR_HC_AP_AMMO', 6, 0.1)
('STR_HC_HE_AMMO', 6, 0.1)
('STR_HC_I_AMMO', 6, 0.1)
('STR_SMALL_ROCKET', 6, 0.2)
('STR_HIGH_EXPLOSIVE', 6, 0.2)
('STR_STUN_ROD', 6, 0.1)
('STR_PISTOL', 5, 0.1)
('STR_AC_AP_AMMO', 5, 0.1)
('STR_AC_HE_AMMO', 5, 0.1)
('STR_AC_I_AMMO', 5, 0.1)
('STR_MEDI_KIT', 5, 0.1)
('STR_PLASMA_RIFLE', 5, 0.2)
('STR_MIND_PROBE', 5, 0.1)
('STR_PISTOL_CLIP', 3, 0.1)
('STR_RIFLE_CLIP', 3, 0.1)
('STR_GRENADE', 3, 0.1)
('STR_SMOKE_GRENADE', 3, 0.1)
('STR_PROXIMITY_GRENADE', 3, 0.1)
('STR_MOTION_SCANNER', 3, 0.1)
('STR_ELECTRO_FLARE', 3, 0.1)
('STR_HEAVY_PLASMA_CLIP', 3, 0.3)
('STR_PLASMA_RIFLE_CLIP', 3, 0.1)
('STR_PLASMA_PISTOL', 3, 0.1)
('STR_PLASMA_PISTOL_CLIP', 3, 0.1)
('STR_BLASTER_BOMB', 3, 0.2)
('STR_STUN_BOMB', 3, 0.1)
('STR_ALIEN_GRENADE', 3, 0.1)
('STR_ELERIUM_115', 3, 0.1)
('CYBERDISC_WEAPON', 3, -1)
('REAPER_WEAPON', 3, -1)
('CHRYSSALID_WEAPON', 3, -1)
('CELATID_WEAPON', 3, -1)
('SILACOID_WEAPON', 3, -1)
('SECTOPOD_WEAPON', 3, -1)
('ZOMBIE_WEAPON', 3, -1)
('STR_TANK_CANNON', 1, 6)
('STR_HWP_CANNON_SHELLS', 1, 0.1)
('STR_TANK_ROCKET_LAUNCHER', 1, 6)
('STR_HWP_ROCKETS', 1, 0.6)
('STR_TANK_LASER_CANNON', 1, 6)
('STR_HOVERTANK_PLASMA', 1, 6)
('STR_HOVERTANK_LAUNCHER', 1, 6)
('STR_HWP_FUSION_BOMB', 1, 0.6)
('STR_STINGRAY_LAUNCHER', -1, 0.8)
('STR_STINGRAY_MISSILES', -1, 0.4)
('STR_AVALANCHE_LAUNCHER', -1, 1)
('STR_AVALANCHE_MISSILES', -1, 1.5)
('STR_CANNON', -1, 1.5)
('STR_CANNON_ROUNDS_X50', -1, 0.1)
('STR_FUSION_BALL_LAUNCHER', -1, 2.0)
('STR_FUSION_BALL', -1, 0.6)
('STR_LASER_CANNON', -1, 2.0)
('STR_PLASMA_BEAM', -1, 1.2)
('STR_REAPER_CORPSE', -1, 1)
('STR_SECTOPOD_CORPSE', -1, 1)
('STR_CYBERDISC_CORPSE', -1, 1)
('STR_UFO_POWER_SOURCE', -1, 0.7)
('STR_UFO_NAVIGATION', -1, 0.2)
('STR_UFO_CONSTRUCTION', -1, 0.1)
('STR_ALIEN_FOOD', -1, 0.2)
('STR_ALIEN_REPRODUCTION', -1, 0.2)
('STR_ALIEN_ENTERTAINMENT', -1, 0.2)
('STR_ALIEN_SURGERY', -1, 0.2)
('STR_EXAMINATION_ROOM', -1, 0.2)
('STR_ALIEN_ALLOYS', -1, 0.1)
('STR_ALIEN_HABITAT', -1, 0.1)
('STR_PERSONAL_ARMOR', -1, 0.8)
('STR_POWER_SUIT', -1, 0.8)
('STR_FLYING_SUIT', -1, 0.8)

('STR_TANK_CANNON', 1, 6)
('STR_TANK_ROCKET_LAUNCHER', 1, 6)
('STR_TANK_LASER_CANNON', 1, 6)
('STR_HOVERTANK_PLASMA', 1, 6)
('STR_HOVERTANK_LAUNCHER', 1, 6)
('STR_FUSION_BALL_LAUNCHER', -1, 2.0)
('STR_LASER_CANNON', -1, 2.0)
('STR_AVALANCHE_MISSILES', -1, 1.5)
('STR_CANNON', -1, 1.5)
('STR_PLASMA_BEAM', -1, 1.2)
('STR_AVALANCHE_LAUNCHER', -1, 1)
('STR_REAPER_CORPSE', -1, 1)
('STR_SECTOPOD_CORPSE', -1, 1)
('STR_CYBERDISC_CORPSE', -1, 1)
('STR_STINGRAY_LAUNCHER', -1, 0.8)
('STR_PERSONAL_ARMOR', -1, 0.8)
('STR_POWER_SUIT', -1, 0.8)
('STR_FLYING_SUIT', -1, 0.8)
('STR_UFO_POWER_SOURCE', -1, 0.7)
('STR_FUSION_BALL', -1, 0.6)
('STR_HWP_ROCKETS', 1, 0.6)
('STR_HWP_FUSION_BOMB', 1, 0.6)
('STR_STINGRAY_MISSILES', -1, 0.4)
('STR_ROCKET_LAUNCHER', 10, 0.4)
('STR_FLOATER_CORPSE', 20, 0.4)
('STR_ETHEREAL_CORPSE', 25, 0.4)
('STR_SECTOID_CORPSE', 30, 0.4)
('STR_CELATID_CORPSE', 35, 0.4)
('STR_SNAKEMAN_CORPSE', 40, 0.4)
('STR_MUTON_CORPSE', 40, 0.4)
('STR_SILACOID_CORPSE', 40, 0.4)
('STR_CHRYSSALID_CORPSE', 40, 0.4)
('STR_HEAVY_PLASMA_CLIP', 3, 0.3)
('STR_BLASTER_LAUNCHER', 16, 0.3)
('STR_HEAVY_CANNON', 18, 0.3)
('STR_HEAVY_LASER', 18, 0.3)
('STR_AUTO_CANNON', 19, 0.3)
('STR_UFO_NAVIGATION', -1, 0.2)
('STR_ALIEN_FOOD', -1, 0.2)
('STR_ALIEN_REPRODUCTION', -1, 0.2)
('STR_ALIEN_ENTERTAINMENT', -1, 0.2)
('STR_ALIEN_SURGERY', -1, 0.2)
('STR_EXAMINATION_ROOM', -1, 0.2)
('STR_BLASTER_BOMB', 3, 0.2)
('STR_PLASMA_RIFLE', 5, 0.2)
('STR_SMALL_ROCKET', 6, 0.2)
('STR_HIGH_EXPLOSIVE', 6, 0.2)
('STR_RIFLE', 8, 0.2)
('STR_LARGE_ROCKET', 8, 0.2)
('STR_INCENDIARY_ROCKET', 8, 0.2)
('STR_LASER_RIFLE', 8, 0.2)
('STR_HEAVY_PLASMA', 8, 0.2)
('STR_SMALL_LAUNCHER', 10, 0.2)
('STR_CANNON_ROUNDS_X50', -1, 0.1)
('STR_UFO_CONSTRUCTION', -1, 0.1)
('STR_ALIEN_ALLOYS', -1, 0.1)
('STR_ALIEN_HABITAT', -1, 0.1)
('STR_HWP_CANNON_SHELLS', 1, 0.1)
('STR_PISTOL_CLIP', 3, 0.1)
('STR_RIFLE_CLIP', 3, 0.1)
('STR_GRENADE', 3, 0.1)
('STR_SMOKE_GRENADE', 3, 0.1)
('STR_PROXIMITY_GRENADE', 3, 0.1)
('STR_MOTION_SCANNER', 3, 0.1)
('STR_ELECTRO_FLARE', 3, 0.1)
('STR_PLASMA_RIFLE_CLIP', 3, 0.1)
('STR_PLASMA_PISTOL', 3, 0.1)
('STR_PLASMA_PISTOL_CLIP', 3, 0.1)
('STR_STUN_BOMB', 3, 0.1)
('STR_ALIEN_GRENADE', 3, 0.1)
('STR_ELERIUM_115', 3, 0.1)
('STR_PISTOL', 5, 0.1)
('STR_AC_AP_AMMO', 5, 0.1)
('STR_AC_HE_AMMO', 5, 0.1)
('STR_AC_I_AMMO', 5, 0.1)
('STR_MEDI_KIT', 5, 0.1)
('STR_MIND_PROBE', 5, 0.1)
('STR_HC_AP_AMMO', 6, 0.1)
('STR_HC_HE_AMMO', 6, 0.1)
('STR_HC_I_AMMO', 6, 0.1)
('STR_STUN_ROD', 6, 0.1)
('STR_LASER_PISTOL', 7, 0.1)
('STR_PSI_AMP', 10, 0.1)
('CYBERDISC_WEAPON', 3, -1)
('REAPER_WEAPON', 3, -1)
('CHRYSSALID_WEAPON', 3, -1)
('CELATID_WEAPON', 3, -1)
('SILACOID_WEAPON', 3, -1)
('SECTOPOD_WEAPON', 3, -1)
('ZOMBIE_WEAPON', 3, -1)
('STR_CORPSE', 22, -1)
('STR_CORPSE_ARMOR', 24, -1)
('STR_CORPSE_SUIT', 26, -1)
('CIVM_CORPSE', 30, -1)
('CIVF_CORPSE', 50, -1)

both seems a bit useless (heavy plamsa clip bigger than heavy plasma?)
a bit better is the product of both numbers max(max(weight,1)*size,0)
still not great so should a "weighted" limit be implemented the normal number do need a "fix" imho
(('STR_SNAKEMAN_CORPSE', 40, 0.4), 16.0)
(('STR_MUTON_CORPSE', 40, 0.4), 16.0)
(('STR_SILACOID_CORPSE', 40, 0.4), 16.0)
(('STR_CHRYSSALID_CORPSE', 40, 0.4), 16.0)
(('STR_CELATID_CORPSE', 35, 0.4), 14.0)
(('STR_SECTOID_CORPSE', 30, 0.4), 12.0)
(('STR_ETHEREAL_CORPSE', 25, 0.4), 10.0)
(('STR_FLOATER_CORPSE', 20, 0.4), 8.0)
(('STR_TANK_CANNON', 1, 6), 6)
(('STR_TANK_ROCKET_LAUNCHER', 1, 6), 6)
(('STR_TANK_LASER_CANNON', 1, 6), 6)
(('STR_HOVERTANK_PLASMA', 1, 6), 6)
(('STR_HOVERTANK_LAUNCHER', 1, 6), 6)
(('STR_AUTO_CANNON', 19, 0.3), 5.7)
(('STR_HEAVY_CANNON', 18, 0.3), 5.3999999999999995)
(('STR_HEAVY_LASER', 18, 0.3), 5.3999999999999995)
(('STR_BLASTER_LAUNCHER', 16, 0.3), 4.8)
(('STR_ROCKET_LAUNCHER', 10, 0.4), 4.0)
(('STR_FUSION_BALL_LAUNCHER', -1, 2.0), 2.0)
(('STR_LASER_CANNON', -1, 2.0), 2.0)
(('STR_SMALL_LAUNCHER', 10, 0.2), 2.0)
(('STR_RIFLE', 8, 0.2), 1.6)
(('STR_LARGE_ROCKET', 8, 0.2), 1.6)
(('STR_INCENDIARY_ROCKET', 8, 0.2), 1.6)
(('STR_LASER_RIFLE', 8, 0.2), 1.6)
(('STR_HEAVY_PLASMA', 8, 0.2), 1.6)
(('STR_AVALANCHE_MISSILES', -1, 1.5), 1.5)
(('STR_CANNON', -1, 1.5), 1.5)
(('STR_SMALL_ROCKET', 6, 0.2), 1.2000000000000002)
(('STR_HIGH_EXPLOSIVE', 6, 0.2), 1.2000000000000002)
(('STR_PLASMA_BEAM', -1, 1.2), 1.2)
(('STR_AVALANCHE_LAUNCHER', -1, 1), 1)
(('STR_REAPER_CORPSE', -1, 1), 1)
(('STR_SECTOPOD_CORPSE', -1, 1), 1)
(('STR_CYBERDISC_CORPSE', -1, 1), 1)
(('STR_PLASMA_RIFLE', 5, 0.2), 1.0)
(('STR_PSI_AMP', 10, 0.1), 1.0)
(('STR_HEAVY_PLASMA_CLIP', 3, 0.3), 0.8999999999999999)
(('STR_STINGRAY_LAUNCHER', -1, 0.8), 0.8)
(('STR_PERSONAL_ARMOR', -1, 0.8), 0.8)
(('STR_POWER_SUIT', -1, 0.8), 0.8)
(('STR_FLYING_SUIT', -1, 0.8), 0.8)
(('STR_LASER_PISTOL', 7, 0.1), 0.7000000000000001)
(('STR_UFO_POWER_SOURCE', -1, 0.7), 0.7)
(('STR_BLASTER_BOMB', 3, 0.2), 0.6000000000000001)
(('STR_HC_AP_AMMO', 6, 0.1), 0.6000000000000001)
(('STR_HC_HE_AMMO', 6, 0.1), 0.6000000000000001)
(('STR_HC_I_AMMO', 6, 0.1), 0.6000000000000001)
(('STR_STUN_ROD', 6, 0.1), 0.6000000000000001)
(('STR_FUSION_BALL', -1, 0.6), 0.6)
(('STR_HWP_ROCKETS', 1, 0.6), 0.6)
(('STR_HWP_FUSION_BOMB', 1, 0.6), 0.6)
(('STR_PISTOL', 5, 0.1), 0.5)
(('STR_AC_AP_AMMO', 5, 0.1), 0.5)
(('STR_AC_HE_AMMO', 5, 0.1), 0.5)
(('STR_AC_I_AMMO', 5, 0.1), 0.5)
(('STR_MEDI_KIT', 5, 0.1), 0.5)
(('STR_MIND_PROBE', 5, 0.1), 0.5)
(('STR_STINGRAY_MISSILES', -1, 0.4), 0.4)
(('STR_PISTOL_CLIP', 3, 0.1), 0.30000000000000004)
(('STR_RIFLE_CLIP', 3, 0.1), 0.30000000000000004)
(('STR_GRENADE', 3, 0.1), 0.30000000000000004)
(('STR_SMOKE_GRENADE', 3, 0.1), 0.30000000000000004)
(('STR_PROXIMITY_GRENADE', 3, 0.1), 0.30000000000000004)
(('STR_MOTION_SCANNER', 3, 0.1), 0.30000000000000004)
(('STR_ELECTRO_FLARE', 3, 0.1), 0.30000000000000004)
(('STR_PLASMA_RIFLE_CLIP', 3, 0.1), 0.30000000000000004)
(('STR_PLASMA_PISTOL', 3, 0.1), 0.30000000000000004)
(('STR_PLASMA_PISTOL_CLIP', 3, 0.1), 0.30000000000000004)
(('STR_STUN_BOMB', 3, 0.1), 0.30000000000000004)
(('STR_ALIEN_GRENADE', 3, 0.1), 0.30000000000000004)
(('STR_ELERIUM_115', 3, 0.1), 0.30000000000000004)
(('STR_UFO_NAVIGATION', -1, 0.2), 0.2)
(('STR_ALIEN_FOOD', -1, 0.2), 0.2)
(('STR_ALIEN_REPRODUCTION', -1, 0.2), 0.2)
(('STR_ALIEN_ENTERTAINMENT', -1, 0.2), 0.2)
(('STR_ALIEN_SURGERY', -1, 0.2), 0.2)
(('STR_EXAMINATION_ROOM', -1, 0.2), 0.2)
(('STR_CANNON_ROUNDS_X50', -1, 0.1), 0.1)
(('STR_UFO_CONSTRUCTION', -1, 0.1), 0.1)
(('STR_ALIEN_ALLOYS', -1, 0.1), 0.1)
(('STR_ALIEN_HABITAT', -1, 0.1), 0.1)
(('STR_HWP_CANNON_SHELLS', 1, 0.1), 0.1)
(('CYBERDISC_WEAPON', 3, -1), 0)
(('REAPER_WEAPON', 3, -1), 0)
(('CHRYSSALID_WEAPON', 3, -1), 0)
(('CELATID_WEAPON', 3, -1), 0)
(('SILACOID_WEAPON', 3, -1), 0)
(('SECTOPOD_WEAPON', 3, -1), 0)
(('ZOMBIE_WEAPON', 3, -1), 0)
(('STR_CORPSE', 22, -1), 0)
(('STR_CORPSE_ARMOR', 24, -1), 0)
(('STR_CORPSE_SUIT', 26, -1), 0)
(('CIVM_CORPSE', 30, -1), 0)
(('CIVF_CORPSE', 50, -1), 0)
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 19, 2014, 08:45:50 pm
Why does female Civilian's body weigh 50, when male Civilian weighs 30? That's harsh, Julian! :P
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: yrizoud on June 19, 2014, 08:52:41 pm
There are a few oddities here and there, but the size (the stat which currently counts for storage) is really not bad. If one selects an equivalent of "1" for a soldier, you can remove one soldier from craft to make room for :
- 1/6th of a HWP
- 5 blaster bombs
- 3 heavy weapons
- 10 small objects or clips.
I'm not even sure if armors need to add their weight, because it's quite cumbersome if you can't change a soldier's armor because 'ship is full'.

For ships with weapon ports, the armament can count : Currently, craft weapons weigh between 1 and 2, and Stingray missiles weigh 0.4. Sounds good compared to people's weight, and it makes you choose between the role of "transport" and "fighter".
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 19, 2014, 08:57:28 pm
If we start talking size instead of weight, then I think it's a very complicated way of achieving roughly the same result as Moriarty's idea.
A soldier is 1x1, and that's his or her "size". Since X-Com dropships don't seem to have a meaningful storage bay separate from its personnel space, we can assume that its storage capabilities is directly proportional to its maximum soldier capacity. But Yrizoud's data can at least define how much the multiplier is.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Hobbes on July 02, 2014, 10:57:01 pm
There was already this discussion on another thread but after playing a few times I decided to say it again:

Bring back the 80 item limit for craft (not base defense missions).

The way it currently works (no limit) means that I bring 200 items so that I won't ran of ammunition and I can switch weapons when the craft arrives or during a fight. This is a freebie for the player who doesn't have anymore to choose what to bring or not (and suffer if he/she has chosen wrongly). This is a meaningful decision for gameplay that should be kept.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Aldorn on July 05, 2014, 12:15:01 pm
Quote from: Hobbes on July 02, 2014, 10:57:01 pm
There was already this discussion on another thread but after playing a few times I decided to say it again:

Bring back the 80 item limit for craft (not base defense missions).

The way it currently works (no limit) means that I bring 200 items so that I won't ran of ammunition and I can switch weapons when the craft arrives or during a fight. This is a freebie for the player who doesn't have anymore to choose what to bring or not (and suffer if he/she has chosen wrongly). This is a meaningful decision for gameplay that should be kept.
For own reasons, I will toogle off this option for sure, as I decided to drastically raise down clip sizes, as to make Laser weapons needing clips

But you are not wrong in your analysis...
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Warboy1982 on July 05, 2014, 08:31:23 pm
you people are weird.

it's in the nightly, but you're still weird.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Sharp on July 05, 2014, 10:04:22 pm
Wow, honestly all you guys arguing for 80 item limit are pretty weird. Tbh for me in skyranger it was never a problem, you can only have 14 guys max and I usually bought along a HWP so only 10 soldiers to equip so very unlikely to hit 80 item limit. Lightning even less of an issue with only 12 guys max. The problem was Base Defence and the Avenger. Avenger can hold 26 soldiers, equip them all with heavy plasma + spare clip and that is 78 items so only 2 grenades allowed, or 2 flares if it's a night mission.

And base defence as mentioned before because you don't get to choose what 80 items.

Now be honest having 200 items in your Skyranger is a lot to be sure but your soldiers can only carry so much, how often do you start a mission and then change your loadout in the skyranger? All the items spawn at the start of the ramp where it's easy to get shot at and unless you have HWD you only know what alien is facing you when you first see it (or hear it) and by then do you really run back to the skyranger to re-equip?

And the other argument for carrying infinity blaster bombs is also silly because blaster bombs are so ridiculously powerful that before even reaching blaster bomb number 79 you should have already obliterated the entire map, limitation on blaster bombs has always been in production, never quantity you can bring.

I can understand wanting realism but an item limit isn't, a weight limit is but annoying to work with. If you really want you can always work it Xenonauts/UFO:AI/Afterxxx style and only bring as much as your soldiers can carry as you can equip outside of pre-battle so you can leave your skyranger floor clear and trip-hazard free.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: clownagent on July 05, 2014, 10:24:23 pm
Quote from: Warboy1982 on July 05, 2014, 08:31:23 pm
you people are weird.

it's in the nightly, but you're still weird.

Does this mean the default setting is now with item limit?  :(

That would be not so nice, but if I can change it back to "no limit" in the ruleset I can live with it.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Hobbes on July 05, 2014, 10:27:28 pm
Quote from: Sharp on July 05, 2014, 10:04:22 pm
Wow, honestly all you guys arguing for 80 item limit are pretty weird. Tbh for me in skyranger it was never a problem, you can only have 14 guys max and I usually bought along a HWP so only 10 soldiers to equip so very unlikely to hit 80 item limit. Lightning even less of an issue with only 12 guys max. The problem was Base Defence and the Avenger. Avenger can hold 26 soldiers, equip them all with heavy plasma + spare clip and that is 78 items so only 2 grenades allowed, or 2 flares if it's a night mission.

You just illustrated perfectly the whole issue behind the 80 item limit: it forces the player to choose. To me that increases the challenge. :)
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Falko on July 05, 2014, 10:27:44 pm
default is no limit
there is a new mod that enable the 80 items
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Sharp on July 05, 2014, 10:42:34 pm
Quote from: Hobbes on July 05, 2014, 10:27:28 pm
You just illustrated perfectly the whole issue behind the 80 item limit: it forces the player to choose. To me that increases the challenge. :)

That's fine, but it's very easy to play with your own limitations that you impose on yourself without needing it coded in. I like to play without using blaster bombs or psionics because I feel those are extremely overpowered but I don't need a mod option for it. It's also fun to play pistols (laser/plasma included) only which is very fun until first you hit cyberdiscs and then later on sectopods and the game turns into run away from the terror units while trying to kill all the other aliens and then get to the choppa and retreat with hopefully positive score and any loot you can carry.

Also I believe you said 120 item limit for Avenger which is really enough as well. The item limit problem for me was never about stuff I could leave on the floor on the skyranger/lightning/avenger but the stuff that my soldiers couldn't carry with them into battle and limiting that by numbers seems very arbitrary.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Ishmaeel on July 06, 2014, 12:00:23 am
Quote from: Warboy1982 on July 05, 2014, 08:31:23 pm
...it's in the nightly...

Not that I would ever use this but I wanted to test it for translations.

As of "2014_07_05_2112" the new mod doesn't seem to do anything.

Edit: Found the problem. The game is looking for "maxItems" whereas the mod defines the values as "items".

Edit2: Fixed now. Thankies.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Muukalainen on July 06, 2014, 05:59:07 pm
I tried this with my old save.

I tried to add laser pistol into my Skyranger and as I expected it said that is is full. Probably exceeding the limit couple of times.

The problem is that after trying to add that laser pistol, it added 50 laser pistols to my stores and -42 on the Skyranger. Originally I had 2 laser pistols on my stores and 0 on Skyranger. I sold those 50 and checked out my Skyranger and luckily those strange -42 laser pistols had disappeared.

----

And +1 for weight limit instead of item limit. This would make it more tactical and have a reason to have those pistols on your commanders, so you could have some extra rockets or explosives.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: SupSuper on July 06, 2014, 10:14:00 pm
Presumably your Skyranger was 50 items over the limit. There's not much we can do if you change mods mid-game, the game can't automatically guess how to try to restore it to a sane state that satisfies the sudden new restrictions.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: El Yahpo on July 07, 2014, 09:40:02 am
I can see where you are coming from with wanting a limit, but my only qualm is if there is some way to exploit unlimited craft storage.

Maybe if the items you store on a craft also take up space in the base's stores. I really hate it when I can't take equipment off of my skyranger.

Edit: should I make a new topic for that idea?
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: moriarty on July 07, 2014, 10:23:27 am
Quote from: El Yahpo on July 07, 2014, 09:40:02 am
Maybe if the items you store on a craft also take up space in the base's stores. I really hate it when I can't take equipment off of my skyranger.

that's already the case :)
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: animal310 on July 08, 2014, 03:12:05 am
Can somebody please explain how this has been implemented? Is it 80 item limit for all ships or different limits for different ships?


Ta
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: yrizoud on July 08, 2014, 04:29:04 am
Looks like a new field called "maxItems" for each ship (section "  crafts:" of the ruleset)
When it's not defined (the default) or specifically set to 0, the number of items is unlimited.

A stock mod "Limit_Craft_Item_Capacities.rul" has been added which sets all limits to 80. Feel free to test and tweak.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: El Yahpo on July 08, 2014, 09:45:00 am
Quote from: moriarty on July 07, 2014, 10:23:27 am
that's already the case :)
I see :P thanks, in that case I am completely against the storage limit, as bringing more stuff just increases the risk of losing it all on missions.

This also explains why there seemed to be less space than before XD
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: moriarty on July 08, 2014, 10:25:34 am
Quote from: El Yahpo on July 08, 2014, 09:45:00 am
I see :P thanks, in that case I am completely against the storage limit, as bringing more stuff just increases the risk of losing it all on missions.

This also explains why there seemed to be less space than before XD

losing it by explosives? or by failing the mission?

so you are saying that there's a relevant choice to be made here, because bringing more stuff may mean losing more stuff... interesting point. I don't know how often you lose a craft, though... that's usually a "ragequit/reload" situation for me :P
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: Muukalainen on July 08, 2014, 02:43:24 pm
I play on Ironman and now on my second campaign on Openxcom. I have already exploded all my stuff couple of times :D Going to be more careful now with rocket launchers. Though it hurts less now as I have the limit on :)
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: El Yahpo on July 09, 2014, 11:32:52 am
Quote from: moriarty on July 08, 2014, 10:25:34 am
losing it by explosives? or by failing the mission?

so you are saying that there's a relevant choice to be made here, because bringing more stuff may mean losing more stuff... interesting point. I don't know how often you lose a craft, though... that's usually a "ragequit/reload" situation for me :P

Me too XD But with the ironman option now I don't get that option.

Equipping your troops with more equipment can lead to more equipment lost (especially with judicial use of SSRL's), so both or valid risks. However, I wasn't considering the "incidental" loss of equippment since it's usually insignificant. (I haven't played much late game)

EDIT: Also, what if we could have an item limit in the craft tied to the number of max soldiers in the craft? HWP present a problem by increasing the item density per soldier? Nope! just have them count for however many items you get per soldier. Bam, strategical choice without unintuitive consequences.
Title: Re: the 80 item limit
Post by: BlackLibrary on July 24, 2014, 04:34:45 am
Quote from: yrizoud on July 08, 2014, 04:29:04 am
Looks like a new field called "maxItems" for each ship (section "  crafts:" of the ruleset)
When it's not defined (the default) or specifically set to 0, the number of items is unlimited.

A stock mod "Limit_Craft_Item_Capacities.rul" has been added which sets all limits to 80. Feel free to test and tweak.

Tweak, tweak, TWEAK!

My skyranger is my portable base of operations.  Racks of ammo and grenades are in a crate in the back, packed neatly next to my men's socks and wife beater t-shirts.