Author Topic: the 80 item limit (Read 41362 times)

osunightfall · « **Reply #45 on:** June 19, 2014, 06:20:00 pm »

Yes, I think it is important to note that nobody is suggesting changing OpenXCom's default behavior of "infinite items on transports." Rather, my original suggestion was to re-instate a configurable item limit that would apply to all craft. Others have proposed more ambitious, weight-based ideas, sometimes on a per-craft basis. If I were designing the game today, I'd certainly try to implement such a system. However, my original suggestion was intended from a curatorial standpoint. If OpenXCom sees curation as an important part of its mission, then I think that their current implementation has failed to meet this goal. This is not even mentioning the simplification of strategic decisions discussed above.

Not that I don't love OpenXCom. Let's not get the wrong idea here.

Falko · « **Reply #46 on:** June 19, 2014, 06:29:05 pm »

Quote from: osunightfall on June 17, 2014, 08:57:26 pm

And perhaps it could default back to 80 items, as in the original?

i am sorry i misread you
i have nothing against the inclusion of an optional limit

moriarty · « **Reply #47 on:** June 19, 2014, 06:31:52 pm »

well, I guess the easiest way to do it is really to define a "number of equipment items that can be transported" value per craft. the default value is open for heated discussion

then, if you want to have vanilla feeling, you can add "itemLimit=80" for each craft. and if you want something more believable, you can set individual limits.

(I'd still like it to be more... "sophisticated"... but I guess for now, easier is better

)

Solarius Scorch · « **Reply #48 on:** June 19, 2014, 07:05:36 pm »

Quote from: yrizoud on June 19, 2014, 06:10:47 pm

My point is that each "missing" soldier leaves the equivalent of 80kg free for extra equipment, and this makes a huge difference.

A lightly armoured soldier. Power Suit looks to be at least over 100 kg, plus the person inside. This makes such calculations a bit more... challenging. Otherwise I'd vote for this.

moriarty · « **Reply #49 on:** June 19, 2014, 07:27:52 pm »

yeah, with this we run again into the "game weight != mass" problem... the "weight" used in the game is more representative of "encumbrance value" than actual mass.

Falko · « **Reply #50 on:** June 19, 2014, 07:49:35 pm »

compare size and weight

Spoilersorted after weight:

Spoilersorted after size:

both seems a bit useless (heavy plamsa clip bigger than heavy plasma?)
a bit better is the product of both numbers max(max(weight,1)*size,0)
still not great so should a "weighted" limit be implemented the normal number do need a "fix" imho

Spoilermultiplyidea:

Solarius Scorch · « **Reply #51 on:** June 19, 2014, 08:45:50 pm »

Why does female Civilian's body weigh 50, when male Civilian weighs 30? That's harsh, Julian!

yrizoud · « **Reply #52 on:** June 19, 2014, 08:52:41 pm »

There are a few oddities here and there, but the size (the stat which currently counts for storage) is really not bad. If one selects an equivalent of "1" for a soldier, you can remove one soldier from craft to make room for :
- 1/6th of a HWP
- 5 blaster bombs
- 3 heavy weapons
- 10 small objects or clips.
I'm not even sure if armors need to add their weight, because it's quite cumbersome if you can't change a soldier's armor because 'ship is full'.

For ships with weapon ports, the armament can count : Currently, craft weapons weigh between 1 and 2, and Stingray missiles weigh 0.4. Sounds good compared to people's weight, and it makes you choose between the role of "transport" and "fighter".

Solarius Scorch · « **Reply #53 on:** June 19, 2014, 08:57:28 pm »

If we start talking size instead of weight, then I think it's a very complicated way of achieving roughly the same result as Moriarty's idea.
A soldier is 1x1, and that's his or her "size". Since X-Com dropships don't seem to have a meaningful storage bay separate from its personnel space, we can assume that its storage capabilities is directly proportional to its maximum soldier capacity. But Yrizoud's data can at least define how much the multiplier is.

Hobbes · « **Reply #54 on:** July 02, 2014, 10:57:01 pm »

There was already this discussion on another thread but after playing a few times I decided to say it again:

Bring back the 80 item limit for craft (not base defense missions).

The way it currently works (no limit) means that I bring 200 items so that I won't ran of ammunition and I can switch weapons when the craft arrives or during a fight. This is a freebie for the player who doesn't have anymore to choose what to bring or not (and suffer if he/she has chosen wrongly). This is a meaningful decision for gameplay that should be kept.

Aldorn · « **Reply #55 on:** July 05, 2014, 12:15:01 pm »

Quote from: Hobbes on July 02, 2014, 10:57:01 pm

There was already this discussion on another thread but after playing a few times I decided to say it again:

Bring back the 80 item limit for craft (not base defense missions).

The way it currently works (no limit) means that I bring 200 items so that I won't ran of ammunition and I can switch weapons when the craft arrives or during a fight. This is a freebie for the player who doesn't have anymore to choose what to bring or not (and suffer if he/she has chosen wrongly). This is a meaningful decision for gameplay that should be kept.

For own reasons, I will toogle off this option for sure, as I decided to drastically raise down clip sizes, as to make Laser weapons needing clips

But you are not wrong in your analysis...

Warboy1982 · « **Reply #56 on:** July 05, 2014, 08:31:23 pm »

you people are weird.

it's in the nightly, but you're still weird.

Sharp · « **Reply #57 on:** July 05, 2014, 10:04:22 pm »

Wow, honestly all you guys arguing for 80 item limit are pretty weird. Tbh for me in skyranger it was never a problem, you can only have 14 guys max and I usually bought along a HWP so only 10 soldiers to equip so very unlikely to hit 80 item limit. Lightning even less of an issue with only 12 guys max. The problem was Base Defence and the Avenger. Avenger can hold 26 soldiers, equip them all with heavy plasma + spare clip and that is 78 items so only 2 grenades allowed, or 2 flares if it's a night mission.

And base defence as mentioned before because you don't get to choose what 80 items.

Now be honest having 200 items in your Skyranger is a lot to be sure but your soldiers can only carry so much, how often do you start a mission and then change your loadout in the skyranger? All the items spawn at the start of the ramp where it's easy to get shot at and unless you have HWD you only know what alien is facing you when you first see it (or hear it) and by then do you really run back to the skyranger to re-equip?

And the other argument for carrying infinity blaster bombs is also silly because blaster bombs are so ridiculously powerful that before even reaching blaster bomb number 79 you should have already obliterated the entire map, limitation on blaster bombs has always been in production, never quantity you can bring.

I can understand wanting realism but an item limit isn't, a weight limit is but annoying to work with. If you really want you can always work it Xenonauts/UFO:AI/Afterxxx style and only bring as much as your soldiers can carry as you can equip outside of pre-battle so you can leave your skyranger floor clear and trip-hazard free.

clownagent · « **Reply #58 on:** July 05, 2014, 10:24:23 pm »

Quote from: Warboy1982 on July 05, 2014, 08:31:23 pm

you people are weird.

it's in the nightly, but you're still weird.

Does this mean the default setting is now with item limit?

That would be not so nice, but if I can change it back to "no limit" in the ruleset I can live with it.

Hobbes · « **Reply #59 on:** July 05, 2014, 10:27:28 pm »

Quote from: Sharp on July 05, 2014, 10:04:22 pm

Wow, honestly all you guys arguing for 80 item limit are pretty weird. Tbh for me in skyranger it was never a problem, you can only have 14 guys max and I usually bought along a HWP so only 10 soldiers to equip so very unlikely to hit 80 item limit. Lightning even less of an issue with only 12 guys max. The problem was Base Defence and the Avenger. Avenger can hold 26 soldiers, equip them all with heavy plasma + spare clip and that is 78 items so only 2 grenades allowed, or 2 flares if it's a night mission.

You just illustrated perfectly the whole issue behind the 80 item limit: it forces the player to choose. To me that increases the challenge.

Author Topic: the 80 item limit (Read 41362 times)

osunightfall

Re: the 80 item limit

Falko

Re: the 80 item limit

moriarty

Re: the 80 item limit

Solarius Scorch

Re: the 80 item limit

moriarty

Re: the 80 item limit

Falko

Re: the 80 item limit

Solarius Scorch

Re: the 80 item limit

yrizoud

Re: the 80 item limit

Solarius Scorch

Re: the 80 item limit

Hobbes

Re: the 80 item limit

Aldorn

Re: the 80 item limit

Warboy1982

Re: the 80 item limit

Sharp

Re: the 80 item limit

clownagent

Re: the 80 item limit

Hobbes

Re: the 80 item limit