Author Topic: [COMPILATION] Final Mod Pack (FMP)  (Read 580614 times)

Offline civilian

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #75 on: May 05, 2014, 02:09:03 pm »
here something for the FMP team  :)

some ideas... and more  :D

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #76 on: May 05, 2014, 02:26:31 pm »
here something for the FMP team  :)

some ideas... and more  :D

Wow, thanks! My birthday is coming up, so it'll be my first present. :D

I'll unpack it soon.

EDIT: Inspired by your mod, I have an idea on how to make an alien plasma shotgun that fits the aliens' feeling: a one-handed weapon named Plasma Caster, basically a heavy pistol with scatter shots. It looks a bit like this.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2014, 02:42:31 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Human Ktulu

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #77 on: May 05, 2014, 11:52:48 pm »
Jackpot !  :o

Seriously, Thanks a lot Civilian  ;)

In my side, I try to finalise a WIP tech tree.

[EDIT] So, this is my last WIP suggestion, without Civilian's data (I want a Saber-Laser ! Ziouuuv Ziiiiiiouuuuv !  :P ).
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 12:45:09 am by Human Ktulu »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #78 on: May 07, 2014, 08:14:19 pm »
Sorry for disappearing for 2 days, I was a little busy. Let's continue then!

In my side, I try to finalise a WIP tech tree.

Some thoughts:

"Gauss Missile Defence" - I don't think it has any missiles. ;) It should be just "Gauss Defence", just like "Laser Defence".
Improved/Advance Gauss Weapons are just stronger, right? I'm okat with this, but I don't know if it's technically possible; I'll have to consult an expert. ;)

Then, there are plasma/fusion weapons. If they are available too early, then it's all for nothing; they must be more difficult to obtain. One live alien is not enough, but what else?
...and today I discussed it with Dioxine, and we have a plan! Listen to this:
  • Each alien Engineer you interrogate gives you one random tech, using the "get one free" feature in the ruleset (the same that Medic uses). There are a number of techs available to choose, let's say there's 10 of them. These techs are free - you get it right after researching the Engineer.
  • In order to get plasma technology tree, you need five different techs from Engineers. Therefore if you are very lucky, you can have them after interrogating 5 Engineers, but you're probably going to need more until all 5 techs are found. It's the same for fusion weapons, although some techs may be the same as for plasma weapons.
  • Other techs may lead to other things, like lasers or whatever.
This has a number of advantages:
  • Advanced alien weapons are delayed.
  • You get empty techs, but they're cool.
  • There will be more cool articles in the Ufopedia, covering technical aspects of alien technology.

What do you think?

[EDIT] So, this is my last WIP suggestion, without Civilian's data (I want a Saber-Laser ! Ziouuuv Ziiiiiiouuuuv !  :P ).

This is perfectly possible now, thanks to the latest changes in the game :) Actually, I wanted to do it a long time ago... :)

Also, seeing as Gauss weapons seem to be accepted into the mod, I'll add them to the Firearms Compilation.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 08:39:42 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Human Ktulu

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #79 on: May 07, 2014, 10:30:12 pm »
Quote
"Gauss Missile Defence" - I don't think it has any missiles. ;) It should be just "Gauss Defence", just like "Laser Defence".
why not, the main idea is to propose a defensive building at this stage of the game.

Quote
Improved/Advance Gauss Weapons are just stronger, right? I'm okat with this, but I don't know if it's technically possible; I'll have to consult an expert. ;)
Attention, only clips ! The weapons are the same one. But maybe, we can make explosive bullet for Advanced (fusion) Gauss Clips and incendiary bullet for improved (plasma) gauss clips ... ? Or we can maybe forget this and give only standard clips ?

Quote
Then, there are plasma/fusion weapons. If they are available too early, then it's all for nothing; they must be more difficult to obtain. One live alien is not enough, but what else?
...and today I discussed it with Dioxine, and we have a plan! Listen to this:

    Each alien Engineer you interrogate gives you one random tech, using the "get one free" feature in the ruleset (the same that Medic uses). There are a number of techs available to choose, let's say there's 10 of them. These techs are free - you get it right after researching the Engineer.
    In order to get plasma technology tree, you need five different techs from Engineers. Therefore if you are very lucky, you can have them after interrogating 5 Engineers, but you're probably going to need more until all 5 techs are found. It's the same for fusion weapons, although some techs may be the same as for plasma weapons.
    Other techs may lead to other things, like lasers or whatever.

This has a number of advantages:

    - Advanced alien weapons are delayed.
    - You get empty techs, but they're cool.
    - There will be more cool articles in the Ufopedia, covering technical aspects of alien technology.


What do you think?
I like this ! If it is possible technically I think that it is very a good idea (I read somewhere something about that ...).

Quote
Also, seeing as Gauss weapons seem to be accepted into the mod, I'll add them to the Firearms Compilation.
Great ! :)

For the future, I hope someone create the sprits for saber laser  ^^ Finnaly, It's the heat-ray who give me this idea.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 11:32:48 pm by Human Ktulu »

Offline MKSheppard

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #80 on: May 08, 2014, 06:36:29 am »
I'd like to see more emphasis placed on human weaponry development that's spurred on by alien technology exploitation.

I always found it a bit silly that right from the start, you could research LASER WEAPONS, which basically obsoleted all the starting human gear within the first month of operations; when in real life; laser weapons require an enormous energy density -- thus they've been fixed and fed by a power plant or semi fixed (naval mount fed by warship powerplant).

Yet somehow X-COM somehow manages to make some sort of battery allowing 255 shots with enough lethality in each shot to one shot mortally wound an unarmored person and have good-ish penetration on armored targets?

At the very least; we're talking about battery technologies being somewhere between TNT (4.6 MJ/kg) and Gunpowder (3 MJ/kg); and approximately twice that of the present non rechargeable state of the art for lithium batteries (1.8 MJ/kg).

Speaking of that; I once read a interesting SF story by David Drake called "Redliners" that posited electric explosives instead of chemical explosives.

Basically, a piece of metal was violently overloaded with a deliberate electric arc; which created an explosion of considerable force, which could be dialed up or down in violence as needed by varying the current sent into the arc.




Offline Falko

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #81 on: May 08, 2014, 08:15:30 am »
I like this ! If it is possible technically I think that it is very a good idea (I read somewhere something about that ...).
Great ! :)
It is possibler see Medikit_need_alien_and_room.rul in the zipfile of https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2055.0
you have to create invisible  dependency-techs that has all combinations of your techs in it (here 2 normal aliens+1terorist+1 out of 3 alien rooms)
Code: [Select]
- name: STR_MEDI_KIT_DEP_0
  cost: 0
  dependencies: [STR_SECTOID, STR_FLOATER, STR_REAPER, STR_EXAMINATION_ROOM]
  unlocks: [STR_MEDI_KIT]
...
-  name: STR_MEDI_KIT_DEP_18
  cost: 0
  dependencies: [STR_SECTOID, STR_SNAKEMAN, STR_REAPER, STR_EXAMINATION_ROOM]
  unlocks: [STR_MEDI_KIT]
...
-  name: STR_MEDI_KIT_DEP_179
  cost: 0
  dependencies: [STR_MUTON, STR_ETHEREAL, STR_SECTOPOD, STR_ALIEN_REPRODUCTION]
  unlocks: [STR_MEDI_KIT]
all dependency-tech unlock the researchable tech and the research topic needs all dependency-techs in their "dependencies" list
Code: [Select]
-  name: STR_MEDI_KIT
 dependencies:
    - STR_MEDI_KIT_DEP_0
    - STR_MEDI_KIT_DEP_1
   ...
    - STR_MEDI_KIT_DEP_179
doing this manually is tedious
there is one problem (at least it was a problem 4-5 days ago)
if you have such a tech dependencies and you research an living alien as last dependencies you will not get a "you can research [TOPIC] now" message it appears in the research list silently - if the last research is a dead object (like a room or rifle) it works

Offline Raidau

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #82 on: May 08, 2014, 09:34:16 am »
I like this ! If it is possible technically I think that it is very a good idea (I read somewhere something about that ...).

I think you also may make only certain races' engeneers know certain secret research topics needed for plasma weapons. So you will have to capture engeneers from different races, e.g. sectoids, floaters and snakemen.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #83 on: May 08, 2014, 01:59:35 pm »
I'd like to see more emphasis placed on human weaponry development that's spurred on by alien technology exploitation.

I always found it a bit silly that right from the start, you could research LASER WEAPONS, which basically obsoleted all the starting human gear within the first month of operations; when in real life; laser weapons require an enormous energy density -- thus they've been fixed and fed by a power plant or semi fixed (naval mount fed by warship powerplant).

Yet somehow X-COM somehow manages to make some sort of battery allowing 255 shots with enough lethality in each shot to one shot mortally wound an unarmored person and have good-ish penetration on armored targets?

At the very least; we're talking about battery technologies being somewhere between TNT (4.6 MJ/kg) and Gunpowder (3 MJ/kg); and approximately twice that of the present non rechargeable state of the art for lithium batteries (1.8 MJ/kg).

Agreed! That's why we're pushing towards lasers as a mid-game weapons, requiring quite a lot of research into alien power systems. If you look at Ktulu's latest diagram, you'll probably like the results.

Speaking of that; I once read a interesting SF story by David Drake called "Redliners" that posited electric explosives instead of chemical explosives.

Basically, a piece of metal was violently overloaded with a deliberate electric arc; which created an explosion of considerable force, which could be dialed up or down in violence as needed by varying the current sent into the arc.

Interesting, although I don't really know what we can do with this. :) But it's good to have such ideas in the bank, you never know when they become useful.


It is possibler see Medikit_need_alien_and_room.rul in the zipfile of https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2055.0
you have to create invisible  dependency-techs that has all combinations of your techs in it (here 2 normal aliens+1terorist+1 out of 3 alien rooms)

I thought about using the mechanism that the Medic enables - you get something like this from Engineers:

Code: [Select]
research:
  - name: STR_SECTOID_ENGINEER
    cost: 192
    needItem: true
    unlocks:
      - STR_ALIEN_ORIGINS
    lookup: STR_SECTOID
    getOneFree:
      - STR_MICROGRAVITY_GENERATOR
      - STR_CHARGED_PARTICLE_CHAMBER
      - STR_ADVANCED_PLASMA_PHYSICS
      - STR_ALIEN_FUSION
      - STR_ALIEN_DILDO
      - etc.

So getting plasma weapons would require STR_ADVANCED_PLASMA_PHYSICS, STR_MICROGRAVITY_GENERATOR, STR_CHARGED_PARTICLE_CHAMBER and some other techs I haven't thought of yet (these are just examples). Fusion weapons would require STR_ALIEN_FUSION, STR_ADVANCED_PLASMA_PHYSICS and some other techs again.

I think you also may make only certain races' engeneers know certain secret research topics needed for plasma weapons. So you will have to capture engeneers from different races, e.g. sectoids, floaters and snakemen.

It's possible, but I don't like it all that much - all races' Engineers should have the same knowledge, otherwise they wouldn't be able to fix all of their equipment...

Offline Raidau

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #84 on: May 08, 2014, 02:03:42 pm »
It's possible, but I don't like it all that much - all races' Engineers should have the same knowledge, otherwise they wouldn't be able to fix all of their equipment...

Yeah, thats kind of unrealistic. Just a possible gameplay idea.

Offline Falko

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #85 on: May 08, 2014, 02:16:57 pm »
I thought about using the mechanism that the Medic enables - you get something like this from Engineers:

Code: [Select]
research:
  - name: STR_SECTOID_ENGINEER
    cost: 192
    needItem: true
    unlocks:
      - STR_ALIEN_ORIGINS
    lookup: STR_SECTOID
    getOneFree:
      - STR_MICROGRAVITY_GENERATOR
      - STR_CHARGED_PARTICLE_CHAMBER
      - STR_ADVANCED_PLASMA_PHYSICS
      - STR_ALIEN_FUSION
      - STR_ALIEN_DILDO
      - etc.

So getting plasma weapons would require STR_ADVANCED_PLASMA_PHYSICS, STR_MICROGRAVITY_GENERATOR, STR_CHARGED_PARTICLE_CHAMBER and some other techs I haven't thought of yet (these are just examples). Fusion weapons would require STR_ALIEN_FUSION, STR_ADVANCED_PLASMA_PHYSICS and some other techs again.
that would avoid the mentioned problem but it does not help if you want some "X-tech OR Y-tech"-dependency then you only get correct research messages if your X/Y-techs are directly researched and not given by getOneFree or lookup

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #86 on: May 08, 2014, 02:37:47 pm »
that would avoid the mentioned problem but it does not help if you want some "X-tech OR Y-tech"-dependency then you only get correct research messages if your X/Y-techs are directly researched and not given by getOneFree or lookup

But what's the problem? You need to collect, say, 5 techs which are all prerequisites for one more advanced tech. There are no dependencies involved, since there's no "optionality": it's not like you need tech A or tech B to get tech C, you need both A and B to get C. So I fail to see the issue.

Offline Falko

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #87 on: May 08, 2014, 02:46:10 pm »
there is no issue if you "need both A and B to get C"
the is only an inconvenience (missing "you can research [tech] now"-text) if you combine the vanilla-plasmabeam-technique (to get an OR dependency) with lookup/getonefree delivered techs

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #88 on: May 08, 2014, 02:50:56 pm »
there is no issue if you "need both A and B to get C"
the is only an inconvenience (missing "you can research [tech] now"-text) if you combine the vanilla-plasmabeam-technique (to get an OR dependency) with lookup/getonefree delivered techs

I'm not completely sure, I get mixed messages regarding this issue.

But even if it's not displayed, it's not a big issue - it'll come up on the research list anyway. While inconvenient, I think it shouldn't really change anything in what we do.

Offline MKSheppard

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Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
« Reply #89 on: May 08, 2014, 09:23:20 pm »
Agreed! That's why we're pushing towards lasers as a mid-game weapons, requiring quite a lot of research into alien power systems. If you look at Ktulu's latest diagram, you'll probably like the results.

While you're at it; could you reverse the typical order of weapons development?

In Stock XCOM we go like:

Pistol -> Rifle -> Heavy Weapon -> Craft Weapon -> Base Defense

Which is a bit odd to me. Shouldn't it be reversed; so that:

Base Defense -> Craft Weapon -> Heavy Weapon -> Rifle -> Pistol

To follow the general trend of miniaturization of a new technology?

First, you build a huge 50 ton weapon, then you manage to shrink it down to 500-1000 lbs (craft weapon); then down to 50-60 lbs (heavy weapon), further to 8-10 lbs (rifle), and finally 2-4 lbs (Pistol).