OpenXcom Forum

Modding => Released Mods => Topic started by: Human Ktulu on April 20, 2014, 11:21:10 pm

Title: [COMPILATION] Final Mod Pack (FMP)
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 20, 2014, 11:21:10 pm
Hello,

The goal of this project is to make huge community modpack well balanced with multi-language adds for strings (en-GB, en-US and fr strings for begining).

I have indexed all existing mods and classified in the following way :

[HERE] (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2027.msg19553#msg19553) - core : the main tech tree
[HERE] (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2158.msg21326#msg21326) - vessel : improved fighter, longrange fighter, ultimate fighter ...
[HERE] (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2159.0) - personnal armour : combat uniform, jump armor ...
[HERE] (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2160.0) - basic weapon : sniper, shootgun, grenades, machinegun, knife, ...
[HERE] (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2161.0) - advanced weapon : plasma, gauss, railgun, laser, dart-rifle, FushionTorch ...
[HERE] (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2162.0) - hwp : all tanks and overtanks, sectopods, ...
[HERE] (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2163.0) - misc : maps, new units, custom rulset's, gfx/sfx improvements, ...

Of course I will not included the totality of the existing mods, but to choose most interesting and to balance them in the game.

Thanks for your support !


EDIT: The above threads are no longer valid, this is the only active Final Mod Pack thread.
The collection has since grown to a huge multimod with a high level of internal intricacy. It still its initial ideas though, which is to put various interested mod content in one place and also to balance them against one another. This is what we do here.
The list of included mods is quite long, so check the description on the mod page.
Enjoy our collection!
- Solarius Scorch

EDIT 2:
For clarification: the FMP is not meant to change core features of the game. It is not an total conversion, it's more of an expansion pack. Therefore I haven't touched anything that would influence gameplay too much, except making laser and plasma way less available - that was necessary in order to do things I wanted to do.
My current project, The X-Com Files (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,4595.0.html), a successor to the Final Mod Pack, is much bolder with the changes.
- Solarius Scorch

NEWEST VERSION HERE: https://openxcom.mod.io/final-mod-pack

(Requires nightly build version 2018-04-28 or later)

Here's a video tutorial on how to install the mod, by Ivan Dogovich:
https://youtu.be/L1WUpX9n7gY?t=22m36s

Thanks to jgatkinsn, there is a GitHub repo here (https://github.com/jgatkinsn/final_mod_pack). More details in this thread (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,4534.0.html).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 21, 2014, 12:08:50 am
Oooh, I want in! I'm not from France, but I speak decent French, and I wanted to do a similar project myself. :)

Is there a development plan for this megamod? I would like to see it, hopefully propose something... :) I believe my main help would be with balance, as I believe this is the most important problem with our modding community (everyone's giving insane stats to everything).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 21, 2014, 12:28:23 am
Hello,

Thanks a lot ! I am very interested by yours opinions to find a good balancing :)

The next step, and big part, it's to combine the very interesting "slowTechProgress" mod with "Alien Armoury Expanded_1.0.2" or/and "TerranPlasmaWeapons" (and maybe one or two Tank mod).

In last I include some weaponmod (sniper, shootgun, ...) but it's more easy (just checked the compatibility). Chiko's gfx are very interesting too !
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 21, 2014, 12:39:46 am
Good decision. I guess if we want to use Alien Armoury Expanded (which I recommend; after all it's my own mod ;) and one of my most successful ones), we should start with this, since it may affect other mods.

Slow tech Progress... Oh boy D: There were so many contradictory ideas ion that thread that I'm not really sure what it does any more. I know I liked some of them, and at the same time hated some others. I guess we'll have to discuss it from scratch, if you want my contribution... I have my own vision which I can share. :)

As for the additional basic human weapons (shotguns, snipers etc.), I'm all for it. This part needs balance badly, but it's also really interesting.

Also let me ask, do we balance the game for the UfoExtender accuracy or not? I would personally lean towards using this, since it seems to make the game more fun to me, although I hated it with a passion at first; its main good point is making some space for non-auto weapons (because hitting with auto fire is borderline impossible at any real distance), and therefore makes the equipment more varied (sniper rifles, machine guns). I will adapt though.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 21, 2014, 02:12:49 am
I found Slow tech Progress interesting because in the vanilla game the resale of aliens artefacts gives too much money. With only 3 probes you can practically fill up laboratory with scientists ! And if the alien weapons researchs is more long/difficult, it will give more space to other secondary weapons.
I still miss retreat to have a precise idea on this mod in particular, but I do not want to withdraw any options which make it to improve the interest of this game. And it's possible to use only a partial of mod. So all is question of balance.

Personaly I use the precision according to the distance (I use many thing :p). For the few weapons which I tested, Sniper is very powerful, shootgun nearly useless, and minigun very funny (2 hits on 20 fire, not bad for 8% accuracy !) :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 21, 2014, 02:39:23 am
All right then, let me say my preferences regarding plasma weapons:
I am in favour of making them harder to research. I'm not sure how yet - or rather there are many options - but I think they're a bit too easy to invent now.
What I am not in favour is forbidding X-Com soldiers from using alien weapons when researched. Alien weapons are normal guns, with a trigger and everything, and the aliens themselves are humanoid, so preventing the player from using them as is and forcing him or her to make new "terran plasma weapons" is an extremely lame, gamey, unbelievable concept. Of course we can have new terran plasma weapons in addition to the alien armament, if we find it necessary (plasma shotgun maybe, or whatever we want; I got nothing at the moment).
I also play with the idea of slightly delaying lasers - maybe by forcing the player to research UFO Power Source first (as power supply is the only major problem we currently have in real life with hand-held lasers). I have more ideas here, but let's take small steps :)

As for the shotgun, I like them, but I'm using a slightly modified version. ;)

PS. Is there anyone else involved in this project? :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 21, 2014, 12:30:28 pm
Thanks for your idea ^^
I joined you about the laser technology, moreover I am always surprising to start by developing the laser pistol! In the order of things, it should be to start with the Canon of the vessel, then to gradually reduce the size of the weapon towards the pistol which I find very useful as a secondary weapon.
The idea of related the laser to the discovery an energy source is good, but I will rather see dissociating from technology alien, except with allien alloys (searches on batteries lithium-Ions-Alloy for example, and it's possible to manufacture alloy).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 21, 2014, 01:06:46 pm
It's an interesting idea, but also rather shocking. The idea of starting with large lasers is controversial, but I kinda like it actually. However, those various stages of power sources... I find it rather stretching, to be honest. My main gripe comes with the hybrid battery, which comes from any biological alien autopsy - why? Aliens aren't really that different from Earthy organisms, so where does this special battery come from?
Perhaps it would be better to turn to alien cyber implants? What I mean is either Floater (flottant) or Muton autopsy. Both these races are proven to have cybernetic enhancements, which could be meaningful here.
Also, I would rather move the Heavy Laser from the Laser Cannon step and move it further, perhaps to the Laser Rifle stage or parallel to it). The weight difference between an aircraft cannon and a hand-held weapon is enormous, and between two hand-held weapons - not so much.
The rest of the graph looks fine to me, except maybe the Laser Shotgun. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: moriarty on April 21, 2014, 01:23:05 pm
in order to keep the "slow tech progress" issue from spamming your thread, I re-opened the original discussion here: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=1582.45 (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=1582.45)

I like your ideas. maybe it would be possible to semi-fragment this "overhaul mod" into one central "FMP.rul" which can be supplemented by optional "FMP_addonXY.rul" subsets?

the main ruleset would change the research tree in general, perhaps adding more tech levels or whatever, and the addon-rulesets would cover the additional weapons/craft/armors/whatever that you may or may not use?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 21, 2014, 11:41:36 pm
Hi,

Thanks for your replies, I need to dig it :p
I have another idea for Laser Tech. It's 100% based on real human technologies. Ok, it is not 100% correct from the scientific point of view but I like this path. Alien alloy and Elerium just help to optimise last weapons.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 22, 2014, 01:41:43 am
Hmm... I'm definitely not a fan of Empty Levels (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EmptyLevels) in games, and that's exactly what this plan does: you need to research Tech 1, which gives you nothing, then Tech 2, which also gives you nothing, and then finally Tech 3, which gives you big fat nothing. Only the fourth tech gives you anything real, so we can simply roll the first three into one single research called "Laser Technology" - and hey, that's what the original game did.

My point is that sure, we can build a new tech tree, but we need these items to mean something - or at least a large majority of them. We should also make most techs prerequisites for more than just one more advanced tech, so that they would be more meaningful and create a more interesting mesh of dependencies.

As for the next part of the tree... Items destroyed when used up? No clips? Lol, why would I threw away a perfectly fine laser gun just because it ran out of juice? And even if it made sense, which it totally doesn't, it's impossible to code it in. No, either we have normal clips or unlimited shots; there's simply no other option.

Below is a suggestion for modification of the tech tree. It still contains some empty techs, but no more than the original game.

(Note that I included a suggestion for gauss weapons tech tree - it's mostly as an example, though I do entertain it as a possible alternative for lasers.)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 22, 2014, 07:57:06 pm
I admit to have been a little extreme  ;D But I am not convinced to put alien tech in laser tree is a good thing, for me that must human research only.
Is on the other hand, to use the aliens interrogations to resolve aliens technologies is a super idea !

I see you new gauss mod, I will compare this masterpièce with railgun_v2 mod.

For moment I does finish to compile all crafts in once mod.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 22, 2014, 08:12:25 pm
I admit to have been a little extreme  ;D But I am not convinced to put alien tech in laser tree is a good thing, for me that must human research only.

No problem, we can always assume that this technology is already known before day 1. :) But my main intention was to delay laser weapons tech a little, to make standard firearms viable for a longer period than 2 weeks. ;) And since we did not have the capabilities of building laser rifles back in 1999 (and we still don't now), I thought it must be alien tech somehow... But we can find another solution if needed.

Is on the other hand, to use the aliens interrogations to resolve aliens technologies is a super idea !

It's already in the game, but sadly, largely underused in my opinion. ;)

I see you new gauss mod, I will compare this masterpièce with railgun_v2 mod.

You mean tyran_nick's mod? It's completely different. Read my readme to know more about it.

For moment I does finish to compile all crafts in once mod.

Good luck! :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 23, 2014, 12:47:34 am
Done ! (download in first post)
But I need some help for testing, balencing and with this strange "listOrder" (?!?) instructions.

good night
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 23, 2014, 03:17:08 am
Done ! (download in first post)
But I need some help for testing, balencing and with this strange "listOrder" (?!?) instructions.

good night

I'll take care of the listOrder, don't worry :)

EDIT: listOrder flags are mostly done. I just didn't do the [crafts] section yet, because I don't have the tools for it at the moment, but manufacture, research and ufopaedia are ready. No other changes were made to the file.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 23, 2014, 11:26:01 pm
Up to date first post with new version of first add-on and some informations additional on this project.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 25, 2014, 05:13:20 am
Thanks for the credits in the readme, but I didn't actually do any balance checking yet. XD I'm only responsible for the listOrder flags.
I will do that though. ;)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 25, 2014, 05:19:45 am
Sorry about double posting, but I feel this should be separated.

I did something for the Greater Good today. To have it out of the way, I decided to make a compilation of all human firearms and other things available from the store at the beginning of the game. This mod is therefore a collection of various Earth weapons from many creators, combined into one ruleset.

I do not claim any credit for these items (except for those I made of course), as they are mostly unmodified. However, I did some balancing changes that were absolutely necessary (as some of these items were definitely overpowered, compared to other weapons).

As I explained above, all weapons presented here are available from the store for purchase. The only exception is the Scatter Laser (that needs to be researched and produced), which was part of the Minigun mod, which I didn't want to break into pieces; I can do it if you think it gets in the way.

As of 1.0, this compilation contains the following mods:
Although the main purpose of this mod was to create a single ruleset for the French Mod Pack, but it can be used as a standalone collection by anyone.

I hope this will prove useful to the project, or at least to someone who might want to use it separately. Naturally, I am open to suggestions and criticism. I would also like to know if there are any starting weapons out there that should be here but aren't.

CAUTION: This mod was balanced for the "UFO Extender Accuracy" option, which severely decreases autofire accuracy at long ranges. If you disable that option, you'll probably find Heavy Machine Gun next to useless (since its main advantage is solid medium-ranged autofire).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 25, 2014, 03:36:28 pm
Good, now It's a little more clearly.

I am looking for the "custom grenade" mod, with the flammer and stun hand grenade.
Stun grenade is not flashbang, but it will may help to capture aliens.  For exemple :

- hand Stun grenade power : 35
- Tazer power : 45
- Stun Rod power : 65

What do you think about it ?

ps : Taser does not want to work :( Game crash when bullet hit something or reach max distance ... I search if there is an incompatibility with another MOD.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 25, 2014, 04:01:51 pm
Good, now It's a little more clearly.

Splendid! I'm especially curious about balance issues - I took really good care of it, but external audit is always good.

I am looking for the "custom grenade" mod, with the flammer and stun hand grenade.
Stun grenade is not flashbang, but it will may help to capture aliens.  For exemple :

- hand Stun grenade power : 35
- Tazer power : 45
- Stun Rod power : 65

What do you think about it ?

I think 45 is a tad too much for the taser, regarding what it should be able to stun (floaters) and what it shouldn't (chryssalids), and also when compared to the stun rod.

As for the stun grenades, I am not against them per se (I actually use this mod), but I don't think it mimics flashbangs very well. A flashbang will incapacitate you for a while, but won't actually put you to sleep. We would need a special new flag for this, "blind" or something :)

ps : Taser does not want to work :( Game crash when bullet hit something or reach max distance ... I search if there is an incompatibility with another MOD.

If you are using my latest compilation mod, I'm sure that's not the issue - I checked with various speed settings, everything's fine. Be sure to get the newest git, otherwise... I don't know.

Oh, and I may add a flamer, but I'm hesitant, as it looks kinda bad with the current code.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: yrizoud on April 25, 2014, 04:33:17 pm
These numbers sound balanced for human technology that works quite well on sectoids (and civilians) but becomes unreliable when thougher foes appear.

I didn't actually play with Simon-v's stun grenades, but he balanced their high usefulness by having them need a base Stun bomb, (which needs Elerium to manufacture). So it's basically a human improvement over the Stun Launcher.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 25, 2014, 04:41:33 pm
These numbers sound balanced for human technology that works quite well on sectoids (and civilians) but becomes unreliable when thougher foes appear.

They are not balanced vs. aliens. They are balanced vs. vanilla human weapons: the rifle, the heavy cannon etc. The Ufopedia states that these are state-of-the-art weapons, the best Earth can offer, so other designs cannot be any better without being cheesy.

Want to kill Mutons? Research something. :P
Or buy a lot of rockets.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 25, 2014, 04:51:34 pm
Oh yes, a mini-pluton rocket !  ;D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 25, 2014, 04:54:15 pm
Oh yes, a mini-pluton rocket !  ;D

We call it Blaster Bomb :D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 25, 2014, 11:58:41 pm
Something worries me. (not you of course  :P )

I have playing sometime with UFO: AI v2.5, in my opinion the tactical possibilities are much more important than XCom whereas the ground is not destructible and the random generation levels very limited.

To add equipements may to bring more interest for the management part but it is a little tiedous if that does not bring anything to the tactical part. For exemple I find that the small equipments is not very exploited to vary the tactical game. Ok knife is a good thing, but using grenades (high cost TU) and pistols is too difficult (and I'm not understand how using shootgun with effectiveness).

Your opinion has, which are the means of improving the tactical possibilities with OpenXCom mecanics ?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 26, 2014, 01:13:43 am
A good question. Let me explain how I see it.
1. Pistols. I don't use them much, but there are players out there who consider them the best starting weapon! This is due to their fast, accurate Snap Shots.
2. Magnum. I can't say if it's better or worse than the standard pistol, but I guess it would be useful for pistol fans. Time will tell.
3. Grenades? How do you even play without them? :P That would be hard as hell!
4. SMG. I admit, it's kind of crappy, since it can't realistically be any better; still, I wanted it in the armoury, so it's there.
5. Shotgun. I like it a lot, as it is useful and different from everything else. It also has two very different ammo types, which adds to the tactical value. I think there's no issue here, though obviously there are people who won't use it (because they use pistols for example :P ).
6. Taser. It's more of a gimmick than anything else, but people seem to like it and the sprite is nice, so...
7. Sniper Rifle. A matter of choice, but I find it useful for the UFOExtender accuracy, so I think it's fine.

Regardless, your question is an important one and we need to keep it in mind in the future!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 26, 2014, 12:10:44 pm
Personally I use only very little the grenades, I prefer to use auto-canon with explosive ammunition (and tank/rockets). Only stronger soldier can carry It, but It's more efficient than standard hand grenade ! And explosions make smoke ...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 26, 2014, 08:07:49 pm
Which clearly illustrates that all these weapons are tactically viable and have their own fans. Even pistols. ;)

Should I add the flamethrower after all? And what about the incendiary grenade?

EDIT:
More questions:
I would like to add a PDW - a light, two-handed weapon for close encounters. Bigger than the SMG, but not definitely as accurate as the rifle (but with better fire rate). I just need to find or make the right spriteset.
Another thing I'm thinking of is an heavy, or "anti-tank" sniper rifle (an analogue of the Barett) - stronger than the standard sniper rifle, but with no Snap Shot and way less manoeuvrable.

Finally, I would like to reiterate that as much as I don't like "empty" research, I don't like "empty" weapons either - ones that add nothing to the game, because they're either unused or tactically very similar to other weapons. Hence all my hesitation and questions.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 26, 2014, 08:39:13 pm
(Sorry if I have a little difficult to write my ideas in English.)

The comparison with "UFO:AI" is interesting, because on this game I use practically all the equipments, whereas on XCom I am satisfied with only 2 or 3 configurations, because the others did not seem to me viable (but I know that is not true).

For exemple If I dont like grenades, that is because it's practically not possible to prime it and to throw it in the same turn. Why not decrase TU's for grenades using ?

So, It should be made sure that each equipments their use is particularly effective on a given tactical configuration. And in same time, possible combinations is increased.

I'm interested to test flamethrower (and any other weapons), for incendiary grenade I think it is good tactical option for blocked alien progression.

Finally for research, i'm agree with you. Maybe for later It will interseting to use aliens interogations for unlock some technologies (for exemple, engineer for unlok alien navigation or power source).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 26, 2014, 10:33:28 pm
(Sorry if I have a little difficult to write my ideas in English.)

Nah, your English is fine :)

The comparison with "UFO:AI" is interesting, because on this game I use practically all the equipments, whereas on XCom I am satisfied with only 2 or 3 configurations, because the others did not seem to me viable (but I know that is not true).

For exemple If I dont like grenades, that is because it's practically not possible to prime it and to throw it in the same turn. Why not decrase TU's for grenades using ?

Because would make them ridiculously overpowered? :P

Let me explain: I rarely have trouble with priming and using the grenade in the same turn. It's a matter of planning, I guess. If I don't do it now, I can always do it the next turn.

Besides, there are certain tricks: you can for example prime the grenade, drop it (2 TUs), step aside (4 TUs), then use another soldier to pick it up and then throw it. ;)

So, It should be made sure that each equipments their use is particularly effective on a given tactical configuration. And in same time, possible combinations is increased.

Agreed! These are my objectives too.

I'm interested to test flamethrower (and any other weapons), for incendiary grenade I think it is good tactical option for blocked alien progression.

OK, I'll include them both in the next version then. For the flamethrower, I'll use Dioxine's sprites, because they're nice and easy. For the incendiary grenades, I'll use TFTD ones for now, until we get some nicer sprites.

Finally for research, i'm agree with you. Maybe for later It will interseting to use aliens interogations for unlock some technologies (for exemple, engineer for unlok alien navigation or power source).

OK. Tonight (hopefully) I'll make a better diagram for suggested tech tree.

EDIT: Update of the compilation - now with incendiary grenades and flamethrowers!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 26, 2014, 11:12:42 pm
Fine !

I renamed the project to "Final Mod Pack", I dont want that project interest only french people !

Quote
Because would make them ridiculously overpowered? :P
In UFO:AI and Xenonaut, it's not ! I never understand the interest of delay system in XCom for grenades. Using a tricks for the same thing ? it's strange !

Quote
Nah, your English is fine :)
Thanks, with some help from systranet.net :p
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 27, 2014, 12:50:51 am
Fine !

I renamed the project to "Final Mod Pack", I dont want that project interest only french people !

Because this is THE REAL ULTIMATE MOD! (https://www.realultimatepower.net/) :D

Now. I have attached a fragment of the new, proposed tech tree.

In this line of thought, I propose to:
1) Make alien interrogations necessary to the laser tech;
2) Make the player research some techs necessary for capturing live aliens.

I made this diagram using Dia (https://dia-installer.de/), an excellent program for graphs I just discovered. I suggest we use this from now on, since we can't realistically work on .pngs. (.dia file in the zip.)

Thoughts?

EDIT: I just noticed something that may be misleading: at the very top, it says "any live alien autopsy". By this, I mean not a living alien (that would be weird - it's an autopsy after all), but a biological alien, as opposed to a Cyberdisc or a Sectopod.

EDIT: some handobs were wrongly numbered in that previous file. Here's an update too.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 27, 2014, 01:15:16 pm
Wow  :o  I will see all that.

Update first post with new addon. Of course it's need to balance it much more.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 27, 2014, 02:17:47 pm
Yeah, I'll need to think of the armours... I'm not really ready for this, it's too much of a task at the moment.

All I can say at this point is that I'm not very enthusiastic about all these beginner armours (kevlar, dragonskin), for a simple reason: either they'll be ridiculously overpowered (like they are now) or they will add little to the game.
Since X-Com troops already have some armour, even when not armoured, I always assumed they wear some elementary protection. Why go beyond this assumption? Plasma fire is too strong to make a big difference anyway.
If we had enemies with human weapons, then I can see these armours playing some role - because human weapons are weaker and have different damage types. Against plasma, however, it's just a gimmick that will artificially expand your lists.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 27, 2014, 02:45:42 pm
No problems, we will see that more later.

For dragonskin I hesitated to include it, but it's maybe interesting to see an strong human armour (front armour near to personnal armour value) but with penalities (weight,  stamina and reactions - to see for TU's). Yes against Plasma it's not significant but kevlar is better than nothing ? (or set to 0 armor for uniform and lower kevlar maybe)
In addition I don't see the level of damage modifier.

Another thing, I think it's will be well if the tanks are in a separate rulset.
I continuous to look at your proposals :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 27, 2014, 03:02:36 pm
No problems, we will see that more later.

For dragonskin I hesitated to include it, but it's maybe interesting to see an strong human armour (front armour near to personnal armour value) but with penalities (weight,  stamina and reactions - to see for TU's). Yes against Plasma it's not significant but kevlar is better than nothing ? (or set to 0 armor for uniform and lower kevlar maybe)
In addition I don't see the level of damage modifier.

Damage modifiers, stat penalties/bonuses and other armour features is something that needs to be addressed in a complex way, at the same time. We need to make an Excel table with all armours and their stats... Then analyse it.
BTW, I think there's plenty of room for more armour types - some may give less armour but more mobility, etc.

Another thing, I think it's will be well if the tanks are in a separate rulset.

I agree. I'll do it when... uh, when I get to that. :) For now, we're still in the design stage; for example we still don't know what to do about plasma, to make it accessible later. (In UFO: Extraterrestrials, you simply needed a live Commander for that, but it's a bit crude.)

I continuous to look at your proposals :)

Well, for now I'm attaching an update of the tech tree. :) Fenyo's ideas were included.
Of course it's still unfinished, but it is growing.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 27, 2014, 03:15:30 pm
The "Nuclear Laser" is more powerful than plasma and gauss ?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 28, 2014, 02:48:55 am
The "Nuclear Laser" is more powerful than plasma and gauss ?

It has unlimited ammo.
I'm not sure if it should be stronger; maybe a little.

EDIT:

As requested by Ktulu, I made a tank compilation. Bear in mind that the Minigun Tank should be removed from the weapons compilation mod - I posted a new version too.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 28, 2014, 08:01:36 pm
You sleep sometime ?

 ;D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MKSheppard on April 28, 2014, 08:40:16 pm
All I can say at this point is that I'm not very enthusiastic about all these beginner armours (kevlar, dragonskin), for a simple reason: either they'll be ridiculously overpowered (like they are now) or they will add little to the game.

I think that's when you repurpose the armor to use the extra "modifiers" we can use in OXCOM.

I always wanted a special "assault" armor using the best human technology could provide; but weighing 50 pounds through ceramic/titanium laminate plates so that the first guy off the skyranger or the first guy through the small UFO door doesn't die 100% of the time from a plasma pistol; but would be heavily encumbered by the weight of the armor.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 28, 2014, 08:49:37 pm
All I can say is that I'll see what I can think of. :)

For now, I'm putting together a new tank compilation... With gauss cannons and scout drones. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 28, 2014, 11:45:34 pm
- Tree tech :

If I understand, Laser and Gauss can be developped at the same time. Bbut Laser focus to destruction with scater and Gauss focus to accuracy with sniper ?

- Stun tech :

Other thing, do you think to include the Dart Rifle in adv weapon ? We can lowered power of alien stun bomb and to develop research for each alien biology and make special dart for each species ?

I finaly try Tazer, I found It too much powerfull. 22-25 May more balanced value. And Stun grenade for 15-18 ?  :P

- Basic weapons :

Now I like shootgun with AC ammunition  8) But may rebalanced it with lower accuracy.

For Sniper Rifle acuracy is too high too, 120%-130% is easy to reach, even if soldier can fire only once time.

Flamme thrower : ouch ! need to rebalenced too. It useful in spaces will have been confined, but there is enormous collateral damage for the soldier who uses it. Finally I am not very convinced of the tactical value of this weapon.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 29, 2014, 02:26:58 am
- Tree tech :

If I understand, Laser and Gauss can be developped at the same time. Bbut Laser focus to destruction with scater and Gauss focus to accuracy with sniper ?

Sort of, but it's a bit more complicated:

Advantages of laser:
Better damage type,
Auto-fire,
Faster shooting (especially snap shots),
(ultimately) Unlimited ammo,
Lower weight,
(for craft cannon) Better range.

Advantages of gauss:
Higher damage,
Faster aimed shots,
More accuracy,
(for craft cannon) Better rate of fire.

This is just a general list of course, there are some nuances.

- Stun tech :

Other thing, do you think to include the Dart Rifle in adv weapon ? We can lowered power of alien stun bomb and to develop research for each alien biology and make special dart for each species ?

Yeah, I'd like to add Stun Rifle weapon too, if there are no objections. I think it's really fun, but I guess it depends on how late the Stun Launcher appears.
A separate clip for each species wouldn't be that good IMO. That would simply be too many clip types, for little gain (if any). Most aliens have similar physiology anyway (and similar to ours too).

As for the Stun Launcher itself, I would prefer not to change vanilla items without a good reason. I like it the way it is, even if it makes Dart Rifle obsolete at some point.

I finaly try Tazer, I found It too much powerfull. 22-25 May more balanced value. And Stun grenade for 15-18 ?  :P

I don't think it's too powerful at all. Bear in mind that it has such a short range that you can as well use a Stun Rod, which is much more powerful and cannot miss, and also has no clips (while taser has only 2 charges). Taser's best feature is that it is small and handy, otherwise I prefer the Stun Rod. If the taser was any weaker, it would be useless; besides, it's still not as strong as I (as a player) would like. ;)

As for the Stun Grenade, I have never actually used them yet, so... no comment. :)

- Basic weapons :

Now I like shootgun with AC ammunition  8) But may rebalanced it with lower accuracy.

Perhaps. It's way less accurate than the rifle, but stronger. More snap shots, but ultimately far less bullets per turn. Good for UFO storming, but so-so in the open field...
Oh damn, I just don't know. :P

For Sniper Rifle acuracy is too high too, 120%-130% is easy to reach, even if soldier can fire only once time.

The accuracyAimed value for the normal Rifle is 110. Sniper Rifle has to be better than that. Perhaps 160 is a bit much, yeah... But it's not much more than the Plasma Sniper Rifle. Well, I guess we could reduce all snipers - these two and the Gauss Sniper Rifle - by 10, but on the other hand they aren't very easy to use, so they need some advantage. If you think they're still too good, I'll reduce their accuracy a little, no problem. (Just remember that the Heavy Plasma Gun has accuracyAimed at 110, and it's not a sniper rifle at all.)

Flamme thrower : ouch ! need to rebalenced too. It useful in spaces will have been confined, but there is enormous collateral damage for the soldier who uses it. Finally I am not very convinced of the tactical value of this weapon.

This weapon is more for fun than anything else, but I find it moderately useful. Still, I agree it can be better balanced, I'm just not sure how. Perhaps a simple increase in max range would be enough?

EDIT: I've attached an Excel file with stats for all weapons I'm using personally, from various mods. Most of them, if not all, I would like to see in our project, so it may be useful for everyone. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: yrizoud on April 29, 2014, 12:42:38 pm
Quote
A separate clip for each species wouldn't be that good IMO. That would simply be too many clip types, for little gain (if any). Most aliens have similar physiology anyway (and similar to ours too).
At the moment it's not supported : The engine has one damage type hard-coded as "stunning", so it's not possible to make several ones that get 100% resistance from the other species.
It would work for a "toxic gun", so that at least you would get a good reason to perform autopsies and all live terrorist (and medic) interrogations.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 30, 2014, 12:26:06 am
At the moment it's not supported : The engine has one damage type hard-coded as "stunning", so it's not possible to make several ones that get 100% resistance from the other species.
It would work for a "toxic gun", so that at least you would get a good reason to perform autopsies and all live terrorist (and medic) interrogations.

Agreed. The Dart Rifle is more of an exception, and it's more of a gadget than actual weapon (though it can stop an alien from eating you, if you hit and it's weakened).

Now, an upgrade! I've added Tank/Gauss and Hovertank/Gauss to the tank compilation. Next, Scout Drone.

EDIT: Of course I had to screw this up. :/ But it's fixed now. At least it has the Scout Drone now, which I think finalizes the tank chapter (well, not really, since I want to make new sprites for some tanks that don't have them, but this can wait as it doesn't affect the project in any meaningful way).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on April 30, 2014, 03:45:01 am
Sorry about double-posting, but this would be confusing otherwise.

So, I started working on the armour concepts. I haven't coded anything yet, and honestly I think it would be best to leave it to you, Human Ktulu, since you already started doing this. I focused on what to do with the armours we have.



First, we have the beginning armours: Uniform, Combat and Dragonskin; in other words, light, medium and heavy. These gave me a headache, since they should be either useless or overpowered. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Earth armours - plasmas mostly ignore them anyway; but apparently you want them and people certainly like having tactical options, so I did my best to make them usable and balanced. I talked with Dioxine, and here's what we decided:

No armour: no changes. Vanilla items should stay as they were, because the game was balanced with them in mind.
Combat armour: armour values 28/12/16/12; it is the most generous we can give without becoming unrealistic, based on what these armours can do in real life. Also none of the damage reduction % nonsense, except for armour piercing attacks, because that's what they were made to do. And a little acid bonus. Also -5 to TUs, Stamina and Reactions (that last one because of the helmet). Weight 8.
Dragonskin: 35/16/30/12. Similar profile, Melee damage bonus since it's metal (it won't do anything against Reapers anyway :P ), bigger Stamina penalty, weight 12.

Yes, I know these armours aren't so good. Still, this is the best the 1999 technology can realistically offer. They would be much more useful if we fought enemies with human weapons (because again, that's what they were made for), but they still offer some marginally better protection than the uniform for the cost of mobility and reactions. I suggest giving them reasonably low prices.



Then we have the second tier of armours: Alien Alloys. We have the Personal Armour and let's not change it if we don't have to. Then there's my Jump Armour, which is generally a Personal Armour with smaller armour values, so there's not much to talk about either.

And finally there's the Psionic Armour which... well, I don't really know what to do with. I don't want it to simply be a Personal Armour with better Psi Strength, because that's kinda dull, and also why not a Psionic Armour based on a Power Suit or a Dragonskin as well? I would like to see something more imaginative, but I haven't found anything yet. Or we can just scrap that idea and make a "Carapace Armour" - a heavy armour made of Alien Alloys, with some penalties but better protection than the Personal Armour (something like a better Dragonskin).



Finally, the best armours. We have the Power Suit and the Flying Suit, which I don't really want to modify for the same reasons. But since we already have 3 early armours and 3 medium armours, why not make 3 armours here too? I dream of a Terminator Armour - an Elerium-powered, ultra-heavy monster with some big-ass weapons that normal suits can't even lift. :)



Anything else? Well, I'm loosely thinking about a separate branch of armours caused "synthmuscle armours", which don't offer as good protection as normal armours (thinner, lighter plating), but give some good stat bonuses (because you have some excessive strength left). It's just an idea though.

Naturally, all new armours (psionic armour or its equivalent, as well as the "terminator") would require new sprites, which is a pain, but maybe we can steal and alter some of Dioxine's designs. :P It'll still be a lot of work though.

I'm attaching an .xls file with all this information. It consists of two spreadsheets: one (Normal) is with the armours as they are now, the other (Proposed) contains new values I came up with. Please have a look at it. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on April 30, 2014, 08:33:19 pm
Not bad !

After playing few times with this addon, I'm agree with you. Give +5 TU for basic uniform is a bad idea.

For the Psionic Armor, the goal is to help the weakest  soldier's in bravery and psi strengh resist a little more at psi attack, sort of mind shield. I wanted to avoid giving too much advantage by equipping the energy and flying suits with this function, but to give the chance to the soldiers who have only 10 points of bravery.

Best armours : I never use or produce Energy suit's. Why ? It's just a flying suit in less better.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MFive on May 01, 2014, 07:10:02 am
a few questions regarding the armours in the .xlsx file

what are 'Under' and '% none'? i assume the none is simply a blank, a nothing percent(why add it to the .xslx?) and that 'under' refers to the armour underneath the soldiers, and if this is true, why list it for non-flying armours? the only time that you would otherwise take damage is grenades that land directly at your feet.

also, why are the % modifiers different for the powered armours and the personal armours? they are made of the same material, so wouldn't they be susceptible to the same damage types?(the exceptions being smoke and stun)

what is the benefit for dragonskin armour? same 'under' rating and a worse AP rating, combine with worse acid rating, it seems far worse than the generic combat armour

just some questions and thoughts i had about this, this project seems amazing, keep up the great work guys! i might also recommend keeping a change log and newer files in the OP, makes it easier for people to find all of the latest parts.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Raidau on May 01, 2014, 10:58:44 am
Regarding armor. I downloaded existing mod 4 or 5 days ago and tweaked it according to my feelings, and the result is almost the same as Solarius Scorch described :) but i think those weight are a little too high, im using 7 foor dragonskin, 6 for combat armor and 4 for kevlar, and they are still quite cumbersome for rookies, so leaving them without any armor is a viable alternative. I already tweaked the armor values, making them generally weaker than alloy armor and frontal armor always the strongest.

I dont think reaction penalty is a good idea, since x-com soldiers reactions already suck.

I also have some new ideas which im about to test, but i dont have experience in creating new sprite sheets, i cant release new armor without new graphics for public:)

Im going to add:
Assault armor: early game, researchable and manufacturable. Strong frontal armor, weak sides and rear, high weight. I suppose this armor will help keeping your engeneers busy if you play with long research mods, before you start using alien alloys.

Fire-Acid-proof beam-deflecting armor: early game, researchable and manufacturable. Light armor with low armor values, fire immunity, 50-80% acid resistance, 15-40% laser resistance, 10-20% plasma resistance. Or so. Lets you use a lot of incendiaries in close quarters.

Biomechanical suit: based on live muton research and personal armor. Provides a bit less frontal armor, more rear armor, adds some TU, stamina and strength. VERY expensive production.

My idea for psi-armor is that it must isolate psi-activity: lower psi-skill and raise psi-strength, to avoid boosting psi-capable soldiers even further.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: wsmithjr on May 01, 2014, 05:21:32 pm
When using Firearms Compilation 1.2, the Scatter Laser shows up at game start in the UFOpaedia.  Can't manufacture it or anything, but it's visible.  Is this a side-effect or a mini-bug?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 01, 2014, 06:24:49 pm
Not bad !

Thank you :)

For the Psionic Armor, the goal is to help the weakest  soldier's in bravery and psi strengh resist a little more at psi attack, sort of mind shield. I wanted to avoid giving too much advantage by equipping the energy and flying suits with this function, but to give the chance to the soldiers who have only 10 points of bravery.

I understand, but the problem is that it seems to be more of an item than a suit - something to be used separately, like a passive Psi-Amp. It was much better in some other games, like UFO: Aftershock (where helmets were separate from the armour) or UFO: Extraterrestrials (where there was actually a special slot for "mind shields" - basically tinfoil headgear.

Having said that, I don't think soldiers with Bravery 10 need any help - they will improve with time. It's worse for those with low Psi Strength, as there's nothing we can do for them, but I also don't think boosting their Psi Strength with an item would be fair. The only honest application of this feature would be to enhance Psi Skill, but psionics make the game super-easy already and I don't want to make it even worse. (I might change my mind since the "line sight only" psionic attacks option has been introduced recently, but I haven't checked it yet.)

Best armours : I never use or produce Energy suit's. Why ? It's just a flying suit in less better.

I do use them. The Flying suit is goddamn expensivei n terms or Elerium, and especially with the Plasma Beam Mod (where Elerium is needed as ammunition).

a few questions regarding the armours in the .xlsx file

what are 'Under' and '% none'? i assume the none is simply a blank, a nothing percent(why add it to the .xslx?)

"None" damage denotes damage with no associated type, or "type 0" in terms of the ruleset. See description for damageType flag in the Ruleset Reference (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Ruleset_Reference_%28OpenXcom%29).

and that 'under' refers to the armour underneath the soldiers, and if this is true, why list it for non-flying armours? the only time that you would otherwise take damage is grenades that land directly at your feet.

Or up to 1 tile away, then it also hits your under armour.
Which is what happens, like, every mission. :P

also, why are the % modifiers different for the powered armours and the personal armours? they are made of the same material, so wouldn't they be susceptible to the same damage types?(the exceptions being smoke and stun)

It's how it was in the vanilla game, so I didn't want to change their properties withoug a good reason. Well, the material is the same, but the technology is probably quite different. I think we can accept this.

what is the benefit for dragonskin armour? same 'under' rating and a worse AP rating, combine with worse acid rating, it seems far worse than the generic combat armour

It protects better against APs than the Combat Armour. Frankly, I don't understand this question. Are you referring to the fact that it's 80% instead of 70%? But the difference in armour values more than offsets this, so I don't think that's it?

just some questions and thoughts i had about this, this project seems amazing, keep up the great work guys! i might also recommend keeping a change log and newer files in the OP, makes it easier for people to find all of the latest parts.

Thanks! It's all more of a preparation phase now, but yeah, we made a few things already.
I agree about the changelog, but I'll leave it to Human Ktulu, because it was his idea. :P (Please, pretty please!)

PS. I know that the Plasma Tank doesn't work for some reason - it has 0 ammo when taken on a mission. Id didn't even work in the original mod where I took it from. I'll fix it soon.

EDIT: I fixed the tank, but now I'm thinking of making plasma ammo for plasma tanks... So I'm not uploading yet. :D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 01, 2014, 11:11:24 pm
Thanks for returns !

As Solarius said, the project is in preparation phase, for the moment we are defining the broad outlines. I will add in first post latest packages, but that remains WIP versions. As soon as the base of this mod is established, we will be able more easily to make a changelog.

Quote
(I might change my mind since the "line sight only" psionic attacks option has been introduced recently, but I haven't checked it yet.)
+1

Moreover the question of extra passive equippements need to be cleared : it's possible or not ?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 02, 2014, 05:15:04 am
Moreover the question of extra passive equippements need to be cleared : it's possible or not ?

AFAIK it can't be done right now, without modifying the code. But I think it's too early for that :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 02, 2014, 12:15:52 pm
Hi, I return on Tech Tree  :P

About the "nuclear laser weapons", you thought of using the resources of the railgun mod ?

For UFO navigation, it will be well to pass by a interrogation alien, the navigator. If not the vessels "Sentinel" and "Thunderstorm" can beings too quickly discovered !

[EDIT] Hum, more I see your tree tech, and more i like it !  :-*
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: yrizoud on May 02, 2014, 01:29:22 pm
The Engineer doesn't unlock anything in vanilla, he could be a prerequisite somewhere (Navigator unlocks the precious Hyperwave decoder)

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 02, 2014, 04:22:29 pm
I use DIA (superb software !) to make a little working and to thus better understand the approach of Solarius.
I replaced label "Alien power system" by "Alien technology" and connect it to plasma research.

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on May 02, 2014, 05:39:10 pm
13 laser-something-techs looks like overkill to me
2 of 3 "enabler"-techs leads to a month waiting period for scientists
(3 days till first ufo, 2 days till corpse researched, 2 days till alien biology researched, 18 days build time, 2 day till next ufo for living alien, 2 days till living alien researched , 2 days till alien researched, 2 days till alien technology researched
best case (2 days for each research) = 33 days until you can start researching anything useful
(yeah you can do elerium, motionscanner, medikit  but mostly the scientists are waiting around doing nothing :( )
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 03, 2014, 11:10:26 am
About the "nuclear laser weapons", you thought of using the resources of the railgun mod ?

Actually, I wanted to use the Piratez sprites. It's complicated to explain, but generally speaking, nuclear lasers have colours like the Laser Rifle, while normal lasers are green. It's a colour scheme I got accustomed to, so I thought other people might be too. But we can of course do it differently, for example use the recent recolour mod.

But... please, let's not use the railgun mod graphics. :P


[EDIT] Hum, more I see your tree tech, and more i like it !  :-*

Thanks! XD It's a bit of a hit or miss, but I'm trying.

The Engineer doesn't unlock anything in vanilla, he could be a prerequisite somewhere (Navigator unlocks the precious Hyperwave decoder)

I agree. I have a few ideas, but haven't really decided yet. UFO Power source maybe?

(Yeah, I can see you did the same on your tree)

I use DIA (superb software !) to make a little working and to thus better understand the approach of Solarius.
I replaced label "Alien power system" by "Alien technology" and connect it to plasma research.

Alien interrogation is not much of a prerequisite though - it's almost the same. If it was a Commander, then sure.

I looked at your tech tree, it looks much clearer than mine. :D Otherwise I can't see many differences, if any; which means that either I can't look (which is possible), or that we have a consensus (which would be great).

13 laser-something-techs looks like overkill to me

Hmm... We can reduce the number by merging the Laser Cannon and HWP Laser technologies. It would be the prerequisite to laser hand weapons, and Laser Weapons would be the prerequisite to Laser Defence. I think it's the only place we can make a cut. And I did so - let me know if I should revert it, but I think it's better this way.
Oh, and I did the same for the Gauss tree.

2 of 3 "enabler"-techs leads to a month waiting period for scientists
(3 days till first ufo, 2 days till corpse researched, 2 days till alien biology researched, 18 days build time, 2 day till next ufo for living alien, 2 days till living alien researched , 2 days till alien researched, 2 days till alien technology researched
best case (2 days for each research) = 33 days until you can start researching anything useful
(yeah you can do elerium, motionscanner, medikit  but mostly the scientists are waiting around doing nothing :( )

I think it's not so bad. As you said, you can start researching Motion Scanner straight away, and by the time they're done, there's fair chance the troopers will be back with some dead Sectoids to operate on. Then there are Alien Alloys, Mind Probe, Elerium... Sure, if you hire 100 scientists, you can outpace your alien artefacts acquisition, but I think we can discourage this model for early games anyway.
Besides, if we want to slow down the technological progress, we need to make it harder. :) We could make some tech harder in terms of research points to give the scientists something to do, but I think it makes no difference really.

EDIT: I made a new version of the firearms compilation mod - added Yrizoud's early medikit, so that you wouldn't have to watch your soldiers die before you discover the actual Medikit. Naturally, it's big, heavy and unwieldy.
(We could make it researchable if you think it's too good. Then it would basically be a purely human effort at making something that cures plasma burns.)

EDIT 2: I had an idea regarding psionic items. We can make psi belts! Basically just make a 4x1 item, so that fits nowhere except the belt slot, and voila. Of course Warboy would have to enable it first (adding a non-removable flag for a non-armour item is necessary, otherwise it would cause problems), but chances are this will happen.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: civilian on May 03, 2014, 02:52:38 pm
About the armors, here is what I use in my personal mod:

Uniform mod (almost no protection), buyable from start
Personal Armor (boost bravery +10)
Jump Armor (boosts reaction+10) using your original stats
Power Suit (armor stats from original Flying Suit) no flying, midgame
Flying Suit (armor stats from the original Power Suit ) flying, but weak +adds 20 PSI-Defense, mid- to-endgame
Ultimate Suit (Sunfire armor with sligthly better armor than the Power Suit), flying and adds 20 PSI-Defenses, final game

I am very content with this settings. Every armour served a purpose during the game. And it forced me to make tactical decisions when equipping units.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 03, 2014, 03:03:27 pm
About the armors, here is what I use in my personal mod:

Uniform mod (almost no protection), buyable from start
Personal Armor (boost bravery +10)
Jump Armor (boosts reaction+10) using your original stats
Power Suit (armor stats from original Flying Suit) no flying, midgame
Flying Suit (armor stats from the original Power Suit ) flying, but weak +adds 20 PSI-Defense, mid- to-endgame
Ultimate Suit (Sunfire armor with sligthly better armor than the Power Suit), flying and adds 20 PSI-Defenses, final game

I am very content with this settings. Every armour served a purpose during the game. And it forced me to make tactical decisions when equipping units.

Maybe it is tactically diverse and even balanced, but it makes little to no sense.
Bonus to Bravery? I assume it has a blind visor? :)
Jump Armor +10 Reactions? Does it have neural injectors or something? If so, why other armours don't have it?
Flying Armour +20 Psi Defense? Why other armours don't have it if it's possible?
I actually like switching around Power Suit and Flying Suit's stats. It makes sense.
The Ultimate Suit is certainly worth considering.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 03, 2014, 05:46:20 pm
I entirely reconsidered the advanced weapons to obtain something simpler and more coherent.

At beginning of game, I entirely withdrawn the laser technology with the profit of weapons Gauss, as natural evolution of the conventional human armament (after alloy ammo in dependency).

In parallel, the player will be able to develop the Alien weapons to gain in fire power, but with for counterpart the very expensive in Elerium.

The laser technology will come only tardily with the portable nuclear energy source.

I have to voluntarily separate technologies from the vessel of that of the weapons, because even if energy is similar are application is different.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 03, 2014, 06:37:41 pm
I like it. I like it a lot.

(BTW, we can drop the "nuclear" part from the lasers, right? Because right now there are no other lasers?)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: yrizoud on May 03, 2014, 07:21:36 pm
I think you should regroup the gauss weapons with their respective clip, because separately they don't serve any purpose.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 03, 2014, 07:31:00 pm
I think you should regroup the gauss weapons with their respective clip, because separately they don't serve any purpose.

I agree. It doesn't really matter that much if you do them together or not (as long as prerequisites are the same), so I didn't mention it at this stage, but yeah... Discovering them together makes more sense.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 03, 2014, 08:24:38 pm
I'm completly ok with you.  ;D

But if the laser's techs are developed tardily in game, which level of power you thinks that it must be ?
A little more of vanilla game or similar ?

There are interesting things in Flako diagram's, but broadly I found it too heavy and complex. I think that the challenge is to take the good ideas without overloading the game.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 03, 2014, 08:38:54 pm
But if the laser's techs are developed tardily in game, which level of power you thinks that it must be ?
A little more of vanilla game or similar ?

I would like to keep it as vanilla as possible. A fast, auto-fire weapon with a good damage type (most aliens aren't resistant to lasers) is still invaluable, even if not as strong as some other guns. Plus, I don't want to alienate people who just got used to how lasers are and don't want any changes.

There are interesting things in Flako diagram's, but broadly I found it too heavy and complex. I think that the challenge is to take the good ideas without overloading the game.

His ideas are for another thread, so they could be made with something slightly different in mind. Still, at least some of his ideas are very interesting - like having to interrogate several aliens instead of just one to unlock some research.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 03, 2014, 11:18:42 pm
Ok so, for advanced weapons we have :

- Alien Armoury Expanded
- Gauss Mod
- Scatter Laser (and maybe a little graphic mod for other laser weapons)
- Dart Rifle
- Fushion Torch
- Mind Missile (good or bad idea ?)

I think we can forget "Terran Plasma Weapons" ?
If not What else ?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 03, 2014, 11:28:32 pm
Yeah, I think we can forget the Terran Plasma Weapons mod, unless we come up with something really new. I keep thinking about a Plasma Shotgun, but it sounds a bit... silly. Still, I think it would be cool. ;)

As for other stuff, there are a few small mods that I think are worthy (or more!) to be added, particularly:
- Ryskeliini's Elerium Mace (after some serious nerfing),
- Clownagent's Mind Missile (perhaps with a whole new launcher and a set of rockets to simplify and streamline things, but I like the general idea),
- perhaps Civilian's Heat-Ray mod - I haven't tried it out yet, but it looks solid (though I'm against fixed TU cost in this case).

Of course I'm only talking about weapons here; there are other mods I consider worthy or even essential (for example Shadow's Power Suit Helm Off, or Civilian's various terrain mods), but we'll get there later.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 04, 2014, 01:19:17 am
Quote
Ryskeliini's Elerium Mace
Why not ?
Quote
Clownagent's Mind Missile
I see extra guided-missile for standard rocket launcher, this is it ?
Quote
perhaps Civilian's Heat-Ray mod
mmh, I dont know. I need to test it, and if this weapon use alloy and elerium, we need to found a good place in advanced weapon's tech tree.
Quote
Of course I'm only talking about weapons here; there are other mods I consider worthy or even essential (for example Shadow's Power Suit Helm Off, or Civilian's various terrain mods), but we'll get there later.
Yes, we will see that more later with the other "extra addons" packs.

-----------------------

If not I reconsidered the tech tree for vessels  ;D
This time I tried to play with mind prob research and Falko's idea for fuel.
Finnaly, I found too complex to use 2 or 3 alloy quality.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 04, 2014, 01:39:44 am
I see extra guided-missile for standard rocket launcher, this is it ?

Yes, but after some thought I decided it would be better to make a new Rocket Launcher and new rockets (Small, Large and Incendiary, unless we do something differently). The reasons are:
1) To make the system more clear - new weapon, new ammo.
2) To make it more logical - how do you control the missile with no controls on your Rocket Launcher? You need a special Rocket Launcher!
I also think we could use standard rockets as raw materials for new, mind-guided rockets (after all we just need to install the psi control device). Unless we make completely new rockets.

mmh, I dont know. I need to test it, and if this weapon use alloy and elerium, we need to found a good place in advanced weapon's tech tree.

Same here. It's just a possibility.

I see extra If not I reconsidered the tech tree for vessels  ;D
This time I tried to play with mind prob research and Falko's idea for fuel.

It looks fine to me :) Though frankly I don't know the exact parameters of these new planes, and I'm too tired to do it now. :P

I see extra If not Finnaly, I found too complex to use 2 or 3 alloy quality.

I actually like this, it was elegant and solved some problems regarding various equipment... But all right, we can do without it.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on May 04, 2014, 06:15:44 am
the first time i started using i mods i put a bunch into the folder and realized after my first game .. it was too easy
now i always try to balance my changes
make something important easier should be balanced by making something related harder

more better weapons <-> make alien tougher
make plasmabeam/clips(/fuel) eat your elerium  <-> give the option to recycle elerium based items (recycled items are not sold +cost for producing/recycling of items)
...
additionally i try to make choices available
the normal thunderstormstorm mod give a awesome craft after alien alloy (no elerium usage, early in game, fast speed, health ~= firestorm, downside: 1 weaponslot)
way overpowered / to early available
in the tree i proposed you can get to the first (a bit better) craft with [alien alloys, plasma rifle/clip, resistance alloy]=4 techs, the other crafts need 6, 11,12 techs compared to avenger with 16tech+5 engineers-alien research

in my idea heap is
research useful earth-technology-crafts <--> make the range of ufo random


my thoughts on the earth crafts:

Advanced Fuel => 2 Elerium+2000$=10 Fuel units
that way new crafts use elerium but only 1/5 of the firestorm-avenger type crafts
item based fuel consumption is based on "fly time" not speed as the default crafts do
the fuel refill rate can be used to distinguish between crafts in regard to fuel consumption

Alloy skyranger: there was somewhere a 16-soldier skyranger i wanted to reuse but i cant find him anymore

i will try to make distinctions between crafts in a way that 'getting the "last" craft' is best is not always true
e.g. skyranger vs. alloy skyranger
- alloy skyranger has less fuel reserves then original
+ alloy skyranger has more speed (less weight in hull/fuell)
+ alloy skyranger has 2 more soldier slots
+/- alloy skyranger still costs rent (1/2 rent of skyranger (maintenance, technicians, ..) )
+ alloy skyranger has a sell value (slightly above production costs)
- alloy skyranger can not be repaired (repairRate=0 untested)

for the earth-tech-fighter crafts i dislike the craft1->craft2->craft3->craft4 with craft4=best in all regards - therefore my tree give the choice of craft3 or craft4 after depending on craft2 and some other stuff

craft1:
normal fuel, high speed and acceleration, one weapon slot, fast refuel, fast repair, high rent (2/3 of interceptor), health=2-3x interceptor (destroyed in one shot unlikely), very small fuel reserves (cant fly further than 1,5*hyperwavedecoder range), can make a good profit with selling
[alternative: fast repair/high rent OR no repair, no rent, cheap to build]
craft2:
needs elerium enhanced fuel, speed/acceleration between interceptor and firestorm, one weapon slot, slow refuel, slow repair, low rent (1/5 of interceptor), health=slightly less than firestorm, fuel reserves huge/enough to fly to any point on the globe and patrol for some time, has double the radar range, no profit by selling

craft3 and craft4:
both: 2 weapon slots
fuel reserves: 2/3 globe reachable <-> enough fuel to fly around globe 2 times
consumption: needs 2-3 more fuel than craft2 <-> needs 2/3 fuel
speed: should be similar perhaps on with higher speed, less acceleration the other with a bit less  speed, higher acceleration
rent/repair: high <-> low
manufacture costs: can make profit <-> can make no profit

not sure what sprites/names go to what craft or in regard to craft3/4 what property is assigned to what craft i first plan to get my balancing mod "random ufo range" done

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: yrizoud on May 04, 2014, 06:28:13 am
I decided it would be better to make a new Rocket Launcher
You can always make it "use" an existing launcher as component, in order to free the inventories of the "obsolete" weapon.

Oh when you said "essential", it reminded me of the daichi blade. Overpowered IMO with its default stats, but every OpenXCOM player should try it once.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: civilian on May 04, 2014, 12:25:41 pm
Maybe it is tactically diverse and even balanced, but it makes little to no sense.
Bonus to Bravery? I assume it has a blind visor? :)
Jump Armor +10 Reactions? Does it have neural injectors or something? If so, why other armours don't have it?
Flying Armour +20 Psi Defense? Why other armours don't have it if it's possible?
I actually like switching around Power Suit and Flying Suit's stats. It makes sense.
The Ultimate Suit is certainly worth considering.

The bonus to bravery is actually realistic, ask why modern-day soldiers are actually given armour and especially helmets, it is NOT because those could stop any real high-powered projectile.

The bonus to reaction: I made this because of your description (ufopediatext) mentioning increased mobility  ;)

The flying armour is no longer a flying armor only, it now is a PSI-Suit in my game. the other armours do not have it because they are older and less advanced, simple as that. ;D

About the Ultimate Suit: Make sure it is NOT completely invulnerable, more than 130 armor is too much.

oh and feel free to edit/change the Heat-Ray weapon stats if you want to use them.  :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 04, 2014, 09:16:23 pm
Other versions of diagramms ...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 04, 2014, 11:35:35 pm
now i always try to balance my changes
make something important easier should be balanced by making something related harder

Not a bad mindset. Though I think our project is a bit complex, so it'll need some broad strokes anyway (and a lot of testing).

my thoughts on the earth crafts:

I don't really have any strong opinion on it yet, but it looks fine. Do you have more specific stats in mind? I'd like to see a table for comparison.

You can always make it "use" an existing launcher as component, in order to free the inventories of the "obsolete" weapon.

Yeah, it's logical. Upgrade the missiles, upgrade the launcher!

Oh when you said "essential", it reminded me of the daichi blade. Overpowered IMO with its default stats, but every OpenXCOM player should try it once.

That's the combat knife, right? Yeah, it's already rebalanced and added to the gun compilation mod. 8)

The bonus to bravery is actually realistic, ask why modern-day soldiers are actually given armour and especially helmets, it is NOT because those could stop any real high-powered projectile.

No, but it's good against shrapnel.
Anyway, that's not how Bravery works. It's checked only when many soldiers on your side die. Therefore, more effective armour means Bravery bonus for everyone. ;)
Besides, why not a bonus to the Power Suit then?

The bonus to reaction: I made this because of your description (ufopediatext) mentioning increased mobility  ;)

Well, it flies. :)

The flying armour is no longer a flying armor only, it now is a PSI-Suit in my game. the other armours do not have it because they are older and less advanced, simple as that. ;D

Yeah, that's fine. But I need to think about psionic outfits in general, I'd prefer a wearable item (preferably a belt, since it can only go in one place if it's 1x4). This would have to be enabled by the developers first though.

About the Ultimate Suit: Make sure it is NOT completely invulnerable, more than 130 armor is too much.

The HPG can go through 130 armour with some luck. But I get what you're saying, and I agree.

oh and feel free to edit/change the Heat-Ray weapon stats if you want to use them.  :)

Thanks :) It depends on how clutter the tree is. But I really like your design. :)

Other versions of diagramms ...

One thing: you can't use a plane as a component for making another plane - the code won't allow this. This is because you may have several planes in your base, each of them with a different set of weapons, so the game wouldn't know which one to choose.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: civilian on May 05, 2014, 02:09:03 pm
here something for the FMP team  :)

some ideas... and more  :D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 05, 2014, 02:26:31 pm
here something for the FMP team  :)

some ideas... and more  :D

Wow, thanks! My birthday is coming up, so it'll be my first present. :D

I'll unpack it soon.

EDIT: Inspired by your mod, I have an idea on how to make an alien plasma shotgun that fits the aliens' feeling: a one-handed weapon named Plasma Caster, basically a heavy pistol with scatter shots. It looks a bit like this (https://www.strategycore.co.uk/site/assets/files/1184/alien_laser_pistol.jpg).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 05, 2014, 11:52:48 pm
Jackpot !  :o

Seriously, Thanks a lot Civilian  ;)

In my side, I try to finalise a WIP tech tree.

[EDIT] So, this is my last WIP suggestion, without Civilian's data (I want a Saber-Laser ! Ziouuuv Ziiiiiiouuuuv !  :P ).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 07, 2014, 08:14:19 pm
Sorry for disappearing for 2 days, I was a little busy. Let's continue then!

In my side, I try to finalise a WIP tech tree.

Some thoughts:

"Gauss Missile Defence" - I don't think it has any missiles. ;) It should be just "Gauss Defence", just like "Laser Defence".
Improved/Advance Gauss Weapons are just stronger, right? I'm okat with this, but I don't know if it's technically possible; I'll have to consult an expert. ;)

Then, there are plasma/fusion weapons. If they are available too early, then it's all for nothing; they must be more difficult to obtain. One live alien is not enough, but what else?
...and today I discussed it with Dioxine, and we have a plan! Listen to this:
This has a number of advantages:

What do you think?

[EDIT] So, this is my last WIP suggestion, without Civilian's data (I want a Saber-Laser ! Ziouuuv Ziiiiiiouuuuv !  :P ).

This is perfectly possible now, thanks to the latest changes in the game :) Actually, I wanted to do it a long time ago... :)

Also, seeing as Gauss weapons seem to be accepted into the mod, I'll add them to the Firearms Compilation.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 07, 2014, 10:30:12 pm
Quote
"Gauss Missile Defence" - I don't think it has any missiles. ;) It should be just "Gauss Defence", just like "Laser Defence".
why not, the main idea is to propose a defensive building at this stage of the game.

Quote
Improved/Advance Gauss Weapons are just stronger, right? I'm okat with this, but I don't know if it's technically possible; I'll have to consult an expert. ;)
Attention, only clips ! The weapons are the same one. But maybe, we can make explosive bullet for Advanced (fusion) Gauss Clips and incendiary bullet for improved (plasma) gauss clips ... ? Or we can maybe forget this and give only standard clips ?

Quote
Then, there are plasma/fusion weapons. If they are available too early, then it's all for nothing; they must be more difficult to obtain. One live alien is not enough, but what else?
...and today I discussed it with Dioxine, and we have a plan! Listen to this:

    Each alien Engineer you interrogate gives you one random tech, using the "get one free" feature in the ruleset (the same that Medic uses). There are a number of techs available to choose, let's say there's 10 of them. These techs are free - you get it right after researching the Engineer.
    In order to get plasma technology tree, you need five different techs from Engineers. Therefore if you are very lucky, you can have them after interrogating 5 Engineers, but you're probably going to need more until all 5 techs are found. It's the same for fusion weapons, although some techs may be the same as for plasma weapons.
    Other techs may lead to other things, like lasers or whatever.

This has a number of advantages:

    - Advanced alien weapons are delayed.
    - You get empty techs, but they're cool.
    - There will be more cool articles in the Ufopedia, covering technical aspects of alien technology.


What do you think?
I like this ! If it is possible technically I think that it is very a good idea (I read somewhere something about that ...).

Quote
Also, seeing as Gauss weapons seem to be accepted into the mod, I'll add them to the Firearms Compilation.
Great ! :)

For the future, I hope someone create the sprits for saber laser  ^^ Finnaly, It's the heat-ray who give me this idea.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MKSheppard on May 08, 2014, 06:36:29 am
I'd like to see more emphasis placed on human weaponry development that's spurred on by alien technology exploitation.

I always found it a bit silly that right from the start, you could research LASER WEAPONS, which basically obsoleted all the starting human gear within the first month of operations; when in real life; laser weapons require an enormous energy density -- thus they've been fixed and fed by a power plant or semi fixed (naval mount fed by warship powerplant).

Yet somehow X-COM somehow manages to make some sort of battery allowing 255 shots with enough lethality in each shot to one shot mortally wound an unarmored person and have good-ish penetration on armored targets?

At the very least; we're talking about battery technologies being somewhere between TNT (4.6 MJ/kg) and Gunpowder (3 MJ/kg); and approximately twice that of the present non rechargeable state of the art for lithium batteries (1.8 MJ/kg).

Speaking of that; I once read a interesting SF story by David Drake called "Redliners" that posited electric explosives instead of chemical explosives.

Basically, a piece of metal was violently overloaded with a deliberate electric arc; which created an explosion of considerable force, which could be dialed up or down in violence as needed by varying the current sent into the arc.



Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on May 08, 2014, 08:15:30 am
I like this ! If it is possible technically I think that it is very a good idea (I read somewhere something about that ...).
Great ! :)
It is possibler see Medikit_need_alien_and_room.rul in the zipfile of https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2055.0
you have to create invisible  dependency-techs that has all combinations of your techs in it (here 2 normal aliens+1terorist+1 out of 3 alien rooms)
Code: [Select]
- name: STR_MEDI_KIT_DEP_0
  cost: 0
  dependencies: [STR_SECTOID, STR_FLOATER, STR_REAPER, STR_EXAMINATION_ROOM]
  unlocks: [STR_MEDI_KIT]
...
-  name: STR_MEDI_KIT_DEP_18
  cost: 0
  dependencies: [STR_SECTOID, STR_SNAKEMAN, STR_REAPER, STR_EXAMINATION_ROOM]
  unlocks: [STR_MEDI_KIT]
...
-  name: STR_MEDI_KIT_DEP_179
  cost: 0
  dependencies: [STR_MUTON, STR_ETHEREAL, STR_SECTOPOD, STR_ALIEN_REPRODUCTION]
  unlocks: [STR_MEDI_KIT]
all dependency-tech unlock the researchable tech and the research topic needs all dependency-techs in their "dependencies" list
Code: [Select]
-  name: STR_MEDI_KIT
 dependencies:
    - STR_MEDI_KIT_DEP_0
    - STR_MEDI_KIT_DEP_1
   ...
    - STR_MEDI_KIT_DEP_179
doing this manually is tedious
there is one problem (at least it was a problem 4-5 days ago)
if you have such a tech dependencies and you research an living alien as last dependencies you will not get a "you can research [TOPIC] now" message it appears in the research list silently - if the last research is a dead object (like a room or rifle) it works
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Raidau on May 08, 2014, 09:34:16 am
I like this ! If it is possible technically I think that it is very a good idea (I read somewhere something about that ...).

I think you also may make only certain races' engeneers know certain secret research topics needed for plasma weapons. So you will have to capture engeneers from different races, e.g. sectoids, floaters and snakemen.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 08, 2014, 01:59:35 pm
I'd like to see more emphasis placed on human weaponry development that's spurred on by alien technology exploitation.

I always found it a bit silly that right from the start, you could research LASER WEAPONS, which basically obsoleted all the starting human gear within the first month of operations; when in real life; laser weapons require an enormous energy density -- thus they've been fixed and fed by a power plant or semi fixed (naval mount fed by warship powerplant).

Yet somehow X-COM somehow manages to make some sort of battery allowing 255 shots with enough lethality in each shot to one shot mortally wound an unarmored person and have good-ish penetration on armored targets?

At the very least; we're talking about battery technologies being somewhere between TNT (4.6 MJ/kg) and Gunpowder (3 MJ/kg); and approximately twice that of the present non rechargeable state of the art for lithium batteries (1.8 MJ/kg).

Agreed! That's why we're pushing towards lasers as a mid-game weapons, requiring quite a lot of research into alien power systems. If you look at Ktulu's latest diagram, you'll probably like the results.

Speaking of that; I once read a interesting SF story by David Drake called "Redliners" that posited electric explosives instead of chemical explosives.

Basically, a piece of metal was violently overloaded with a deliberate electric arc; which created an explosion of considerable force, which could be dialed up or down in violence as needed by varying the current sent into the arc.

Interesting, although I don't really know what we can do with this. :) But it's good to have such ideas in the bank, you never know when they become useful.


It is possibler see Medikit_need_alien_and_room.rul in the zipfile of https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2055.0
you have to create invisible  dependency-techs that has all combinations of your techs in it (here 2 normal aliens+1terorist+1 out of 3 alien rooms)

I thought about using the mechanism that the Medic enables - you get something like this from Engineers:

Code: [Select]
research:
  - name: STR_SECTOID_ENGINEER
    cost: 192
    needItem: true
    unlocks:
      - STR_ALIEN_ORIGINS
    lookup: STR_SECTOID
    getOneFree:
      - STR_MICROGRAVITY_GENERATOR
      - STR_CHARGED_PARTICLE_CHAMBER
      - STR_ADVANCED_PLASMA_PHYSICS
      - STR_ALIEN_FUSION
      - STR_ALIEN_DILDO
      - etc.

So getting plasma weapons would require STR_ADVANCED_PLASMA_PHYSICS, STR_MICROGRAVITY_GENERATOR, STR_CHARGED_PARTICLE_CHAMBER and some other techs I haven't thought of yet (these are just examples). Fusion weapons would require STR_ALIEN_FUSION, STR_ADVANCED_PLASMA_PHYSICS and some other techs again.

I think you also may make only certain races' engeneers know certain secret research topics needed for plasma weapons. So you will have to capture engeneers from different races, e.g. sectoids, floaters and snakemen.

It's possible, but I don't like it all that much - all races' Engineers should have the same knowledge, otherwise they wouldn't be able to fix all of their equipment...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Raidau on May 08, 2014, 02:03:42 pm
It's possible, but I don't like it all that much - all races' Engineers should have the same knowledge, otherwise they wouldn't be able to fix all of their equipment...

Yeah, thats kind of unrealistic. Just a possible gameplay idea.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on May 08, 2014, 02:16:57 pm
I thought about using the mechanism that the Medic enables - you get something like this from Engineers:

Code: [Select]
research:
  - name: STR_SECTOID_ENGINEER
    cost: 192
    needItem: true
    unlocks:
      - STR_ALIEN_ORIGINS
    lookup: STR_SECTOID
    getOneFree:
      - STR_MICROGRAVITY_GENERATOR
      - STR_CHARGED_PARTICLE_CHAMBER
      - STR_ADVANCED_PLASMA_PHYSICS
      - STR_ALIEN_FUSION
      - STR_ALIEN_DILDO
      - etc.

So getting plasma weapons would require STR_ADVANCED_PLASMA_PHYSICS, STR_MICROGRAVITY_GENERATOR, STR_CHARGED_PARTICLE_CHAMBER and some other techs I haven't thought of yet (these are just examples). Fusion weapons would require STR_ALIEN_FUSION, STR_ADVANCED_PLASMA_PHYSICS and some other techs again.
that would avoid the mentioned problem but it does not help if you want some "X-tech OR Y-tech"-dependency then you only get correct research messages if your X/Y-techs are directly researched and not given by getOneFree or lookup
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 08, 2014, 02:37:47 pm
that would avoid the mentioned problem but it does not help if you want some "X-tech OR Y-tech"-dependency then you only get correct research messages if your X/Y-techs are directly researched and not given by getOneFree or lookup

But what's the problem? You need to collect, say, 5 techs which are all prerequisites for one more advanced tech. There are no dependencies involved, since there's no "optionality": it's not like you need tech A or tech B to get tech C, you need both A and B to get C. So I fail to see the issue.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on May 08, 2014, 02:46:10 pm
there is no issue if you "need both A and B to get C"
the is only an inconvenience (missing "you can research [tech] now"-text) if you combine the vanilla-plasmabeam-technique (to get an OR dependency) with lookup/getonefree delivered techs
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 08, 2014, 02:50:56 pm
there is no issue if you "need both A and B to get C"
the is only an inconvenience (missing "you can research [tech] now"-text) if you combine the vanilla-plasmabeam-technique (to get an OR dependency) with lookup/getonefree delivered techs

I'm not completely sure, I get mixed messages regarding this issue.

But even if it's not displayed, it's not a big issue - it'll come up on the research list anyway. While inconvenient, I think it shouldn't really change anything in what we do.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MKSheppard on May 08, 2014, 09:23:20 pm
Agreed! That's why we're pushing towards lasers as a mid-game weapons, requiring quite a lot of research into alien power systems. If you look at Ktulu's latest diagram, you'll probably like the results.

While you're at it; could you reverse the typical order of weapons development?

In Stock XCOM we go like:

Pistol -> Rifle -> Heavy Weapon -> Craft Weapon -> Base Defense

Which is a bit odd to me. Shouldn't it be reversed; so that:

Base Defense -> Craft Weapon -> Heavy Weapon -> Rifle -> Pistol

To follow the general trend of miniaturization of a new technology?

First, you build a huge 50 ton weapon, then you manage to shrink it down to 500-1000 lbs (craft weapon); then down to 50-60 lbs (heavy weapon), further to 8-10 lbs (rifle), and finally 2-4 lbs (Pistol).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 08, 2014, 09:25:06 pm
While you're at it; could you reverse the typical order of weapons development?

In Stock XCOM we go like:

Pistol -> Rifle -> Heavy Weapon -> Craft Weapon -> Base Defense

Which is a bit odd to me. Shouldn't it be reversed; so that:

Base Defense -> Craft Weapon -> Heavy Weapon -> Rifle -> Pistol

To follow the general trend of miniaturization of a new technology?

First, you build a huge 50 ton weapon, then you manage to shrink it down to 500-1000 lbs (craft weapon); then down to 50-60 lbs (heavy weapon), further to 8-10 lbs (rifle), and finally 2-4 lbs (Pistol).

That's exactly what we've been doing since the beginning of this thread. :P
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MKSheppard on May 08, 2014, 09:26:20 pm
Interesting, although I don't really know what we can do with this. :) But it's good to have such ideas in the bank, you never know when they become useful.

Maybe eventually (after TFTD is in the game) there could be variable yield weapons that you chose the explosive power for before firing?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MKSheppard on May 08, 2014, 09:41:01 pm
That's exactly what we've been doing since the beginning of this thread. :P

Sorry if I'm rehashing things you've already hashed over :'(

Regarding Medikits, is it possible to have a single-use medikit that only stops one (1) fatal wound at the beginning of the game, to represent standard battlefield medicine circa 2000?

No stimulants or painkillers; as all the space is taken up by the stuff needed to stop a sucking chest wound.

It always bugged me that you had to research this to keep your soldiers from dying from easily preventable wounds at the start.

Regarding the use of alien research to unlock medikits; you probably have thrashed this out; but what if autopsying a chrysallid or snakeman unlocks ADVANCED COAGULANTS based on research of weird stuff found in their blood; which enables super quick clotting agents; allowing compact medikits with multiple fatal wounds capability?







Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 08, 2014, 10:20:51 pm
Sorry if I'm rehashing things you've already hashed over :'(

Hehe, no worries. Though you might want to actuall read the thread to see what we're trying to do, should be interesting.

Regarding Medikits, is it possible to have a single-use medikit that only stops one (1) fatal wound at the beginning of the game, to represent standard battlefield medicine circa 2000?

I don't think so. You can make a 12 charge medikit, but that's it.

But who told you that 2000 medicine was any worse than the one today? :P

Regarding the use of alien research to unlock medikits; you probably have thrashed this out; but what if autopsying a chrysallid or snakeman unlocks ADVANCED COAGULANTS based on research of weird stuff found in their blood; which enables super quick clotting agents; allowing compact medikits with multiple fatal wounds capability?

What we have in mind is giving you a cumbersome starting medikit - basically the one made by Yrizoud - and then an advanced, compact one, which is the original medikit.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on May 09, 2014, 12:28:57 am
Regarding Medikits, is it possible to have a single-use medikit that only stops one (1) fatal wound at the beginning of the game, to represent standard battlefield medicine circa 2000?
use: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=1782.msg16419#msg16419
it can heal 3 wounds (3 instead of 10 for all types, it is heavier and bigger 2x2)
i like it as a starting medikit
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 09, 2014, 12:35:18 am
use: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=1782.msg16419#msg16419
it can heal 3 wounds (3 instead of 10 for all types, it is heavier and bigger 2x2)
i like it as a starting medikit

Yeah, that's the one. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Raidau on May 09, 2014, 06:50:57 am
Regarding Medikits, is it possible to have a single-use medikit that only stops one (1) fatal wound at the beginning of the game, to represent standard battlefield medicine circa 2000?

No stimulants or painkillers; as all the space is taken up by the stuff needed to stop a sucking chest wound.

It always bugged me that you had to research this to keep your soldiers from dying from easily preventable wounds at the start.

Regarding the use of alien research to unlock medikits; you probably have thrashed this out; but what if autopsying a chrysallid or snakeman unlocks ADVANCED COAGULANTS based on research of weird stuff found in their blood; which enables super quick clotting agents; allowing compact medikits with multiple fatal wounds capability?

I've been working on medicine stuff. Single-use field dressings are possible, but they behave like a medikit anyway, they do not disappear when used and recharge for next mission. I find this quite a nonsense.

I think for the start there must be a big medikit containing 3 heals and 5 or so stimulants and painkillers.

I also added tranquilizer kit - a small medipack with reversed stimulant

Code: [Select]
    painKiller: 0
    heal: 0
    stimulant: 6
    woundRecovery: 0
    healthRecovery: 0
    stunRecovery: -20
    energyRecovery: 0
    tuUse: 20

I find it quite useful to make sure an alien dont wake up in the middle of the mission, also it has some offensive potential, yet much weaker than stun rod.

I think final improvement over medikit may be improved health recovery when healing wounds, implementing knowledge about chrysallid fast regeneration
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: civilian on May 09, 2014, 11:26:42 am
That tranquilizer thing works?  :o Very interesting idea!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 09, 2014, 11:42:39 am
I'd expect it to work on humans, but not aliens (or civilians). Am I wrong? :o
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 09, 2014, 02:36:30 pm
It's not bad if you use alien bleeding mod. You may heal an stunned and wounded alien ... but in any event, an alien which awakes is inoffensive because it is unable to collect a weapon (exept Chryssalid of course  ::) ).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 09, 2014, 03:04:48 pm
I was simply stating that as of now, healing won't work for either aliens or civilians. And the civilians part is sorta wrong...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Raidau on May 09, 2014, 06:05:16 pm
I'd expect it to work on humans, but not aliens (or civilians). Am I wrong? :o
Yes it works, and vanilla medikit always did too :) It works on both stunned aliens and not stunned ones (and civilians too). If they get tranquilized (their stun goes higher than health) they will go unconcious on the end of x-com turn or after being hit by any sort of weapon. Large units are not affected at all.

I also wanted this to drain energy but that was too glitchy.

Here are the graphic files I use (made by me, based on awesome civilian medkit graphics).

Quote
I was simply stating that as of now, healing won't work for either aliens or civilians. And the civilians part is sorta wrong...

I can heal aliens in my build of the game. Since i play with bleeding aliens enabled that is quite essential to keep them alive till the end of the mission. No bugs have been observed, they are treated just like x-com units.


It's not bad if you use alien bleeding mod. You may heal an stunned and wounded alien ... but in any event, an alien which awakes is inoffensive because it is unable to collect a weapon (exept Chryssalid of course  ::) ).

And psi-aliens. And if you dont want spend time catching those awakened aliens across the map :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 09, 2014, 06:14:21 pm
I can heal aliens in my build of the game. Since i play with bleeding aliens enabled that is quite essential to keep them alive till the end of the mission. No bugs have been observed, they are treated just like x-com units.

Very interesting. Are you using a custom build?

Although frankly, I'm not a fan of healing aliens with human medikits. Sure, it makes the game harder, but nonetheless.

The graphics are very nice though! :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Raidau on May 09, 2014, 06:17:16 pm
Very interesting. Are you using a custom build?

Although frankly, I'm not a fan of healing aliens with human medikits. Sure, it makes the game harder, but nonetheless.

The graphics are very nice though! :)

No, just the last nightly build. Thanks, feel free to use :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MKSheppard on May 09, 2014, 07:41:26 pm
But who told you that 2000 medicine was any worse than the one today? :P

There have been a lot of advances in bleeding edge tactical (battlefield) medicine from 1999 to 2014; mostly driven by the Iraq/Afghanistan wars. Among the new stuff (as of 2006) was:

One-Armed Tourniquet -- you can tie it with only one arm, where previous designs needed two.

HemCon bandage made from an extract from Shrimp cells -- it can stop bleeding almost instantly through a tight bond.

Using expensive clotting drugs designed for hemophilacs to stop bleeding in people suffering from massive trauma from IEDs.

Etc. Even back then, the pentagon was putting forth requests for a portable ultrasound device that would stop internal bleeding with intense ultrasound.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 09, 2014, 08:10:54 pm
There have been a lot of advances in bleeding edge tactical (battlefield) medicine from 1999 to 2014; mostly driven by the Iraq/Afghanistan wars. Among the new stuff (as of 2006) was:

One-Armed Tourniquet -- you can tie it with only one arm, where previous designs needed two.

HemCon bandage made from an extract from Shrimp cells -- it can stop bleeding almost instantly through a tight bond.

Using expensive clotting drugs designed for hemophilacs to stop bleeding in people suffering from massive trauma from IEDs.

Etc. Even back then, the pentagon was putting forth requests for a portable ultrasound device that would stop internal bleeding with intense ultrasound.

Well, it's all very interesting... Though I'm not sure how much of an actual difference it actual makes on the battlefield. I mean, it's not like back in 1999 we used leeches and vodka.

In the meantime, I'm putting together a Polish translation of these mod parts, since I'm using them in my own game (the devs asked to hunt for translation bugs, so I'm forcing myself to play in Polish, which feels weird :P).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: civilian on May 14, 2014, 11:55:28 am
Some quick feedback after actually playing OpenXcom for a while  ;D

The Sniper Rifle is WAY too accurate. 160%? Even the super-guided missile launcher has already 125%, 160% allows for sure-fire hits even when using 2-handed weapons in each hand, even when being wounded, flying AND who-knows-what-else.

The flamethrower is really appreciated, it fills a gap in X-Com.

The medi-pack... It looks great, but let me be honest, the short days without the original kit leave no real need for it. It is working flawlessly, looks great, but it is basically unused.

Slightly OT: After starting a new campaign with all possible (of my own) mods, I realized one thing: More is not automatically better, e.g. I added throwing knives and they worked fine, but just like with the civilian medi-kit: There is no need for them. After I realized that I deleted/removed a lot of redundant weaponry from my mod-soup. And sudenly the game starts to become clear and more enjoyable. After that I removed more (default game) redundant weapons/ammo, made the Auto-Cannon a  AP-only-Minigun and the Heavy Cannon a HE-only-cannon an the more i removed the better the game became!

Some new weapons/equipments however ADDED to the game-play, the Jump Armour, the Combat Knife, the E-Mace, the flame-thrower, the shotguns and some others. The Sniper Rifle is nice to have, but surprisingly it is less useful than one could think, the default rifle is usually more than enough for any long-range purposes.

So, here is what I personally learned for myself: If you add an ALien race/ weapon/ armour/tank etc make sure it:

1. ADDS something unique (e.g. Lobsterman with incredibly tough armour like in TFTD, flame-thrower etc)

or
2. FILLS an existing gap (Jump Armour etc).

or

3. REPLACES something existing for a change (I am working on some Laser-Weapon-Replacer-mods, completely replacing the Laser-weapon-tree with something else, the first one will be a (weker) low-tech magneto-weapon)

Ok enough OT from me  ;D

Good work on your mods, guys!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 14, 2014, 12:48:07 pm
Some quick feedback after actually playing OpenXcom for a while  ;D

Excellent! :)

The Sniper Rifle is WAY too accurate. 160%? Even the super-guided missile launcher has already 125%, 160% allows for sure-fire hits even when using 2-handed weapons in each hand, even when being wounded, flying AND who-knows-what-else.

I see what you mean. But well, let's compare it with the Rifle:

WeaponPowerAcc AimAcc SnapAcc AutoTU AimTU SnapTU AutoClip sizeWeight
Rifle30110603580%25%25%2011
Sniper Rifle3516080N/A50%33%N/A1011

So, the sniper rifle has very little to offer except accuracy: it has no auto shot, it's not really that strong and it has low fire rate. One bullet is unlikely to kill any alien, including Sectoids, and you can't compensate with more dakka. It is accurate, yes, but it's not all that useful when it comes down to it.
Besides, while I didn't use it that much, I regularly use Plasma Sniper Rifles which have almost as much accuracy: 150. And I certainly miss my Aimed Shots sometimes.
However, one thing: this mod was balanced for the UFO Extender accuracy (otherwise many weapons would make little sense, like the HMG for example). For vanilla, the Sniper Rifle probably isn't as balanced.

The medi-pack... It looks great, but let me be honest, the short days without the original kit leave no real need for it. It is working flawlessly, looks great, but it is basically unused.

I agree, but the vanilla Medikit will be harder to research. We just haven't rewritten the tech tree yet.

Slightly OT: (...)

While some compromise can be achieved between elegance and richness, I agree with your philosophy. And I know Human Ktulu does too, because he raised the issue of having too many items in the game on several occasions. Therefore, while I'm not sure if we're radical enough, I think we will more or less fulfil your expectations here. ;)

Now, my fellow designers: has anyone actually started coding something already? :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Avalanche on May 14, 2014, 02:25:21 pm
Is anyone else having trouble using the Raven? Across a few different games, I'm getting instant crashes whenever a Raven engages a UFO, or when I try to sell the Raven. My last playthrough I had to make a new base just filled with hangars so I could ship all them somewhere to open up space.

The CTD doesn't have an error or anything, the game just disappears once it gets within about a millimeter of an alien ship
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 14, 2014, 04:27:24 pm
Is anyone else having trouble using the Raven? Across a few different games, I'm getting instant crashes whenever a Raven engages a UFO, or when I try to sell the Raven. My last playthrough I had to make a new base just filled with hangars so I could ship all them somewhere to open up space.

The CTD doesn't have an error or anything, the game just disappears once it gets within about a millimeter of an alien ship

I haven't used the plane mod yet, as I didn't want to break my campaign. I should be trying a new one very soon, so we'll see.

Now, I was thinking about the new alien tech we're supposed to be getting at random from interrogations. Here's what I came up with until now. Of course, it's work in progress, subject to changes, discussion etc. Just tell me if you like the general direction.

Quote
---=== FROM ENGINEERS ===---

PARTICLE MICROACCELERATION
Many alien designs, including plasma weapons, feature a particle acceleration chamber.  Based on gravity modulation, this component accelerates small lumps of matter to whirl at great velocities, creating enough heat to produce plasma.  This process is very fast, but it requires E-115 to provide the necessary amount of energy.
[plasma weapons component]

ANTI-MATTER CONTAINMENT
Anti-matter is an excellent source of energy, but it is also why it's extremely unstable.  The aliens have overcome this problem by a clever application of gravity fields, separating the anti-matter from normal matter and thus preventing them from reacting with each other, as long as the field is in place.  This discovery is likely to bring great advancement to the human civilization, and can certainly be used against the alien threat.
[fusion weapons component]

FUSION EXPLOSIVES
While the Elerium element is extremely efficient at releasing large amounts of energy at once, it can also be used to initiate a fusion reaction.  While not as efficient, a fusion blast is far cheaper and easier to create.  Combined in the right proportion with a highly energetic crystalline material, this allows for violent discharges of energy, emitting large amounts of heat but very little radiation.  This discovery can potentially revolutionize human warfare against the eliens.
[fusion weapons component]
[Alien Grenade component, probably the only prerequisite besides the actual item]
[possibly gives some sort of fusion explosives - like a grenade stronger than the human Grenade, but not as strong as the Alien Grenade? Yeah, Xenonauts, I'm stealing ideas from you]

ALIEN GRAVITY GENERATOR
Alien Gravity Generator is in fact a graviton emitter, which can amplify, nullify or modulate gravity fields on small scales.  While it has no direct combat application, it is sure to be a great boon to human space exploration, atmospheric flight and many fields of engineering.
[plasma weapons component]
[fusion weapons component]
[Small Launcher component]
[Grav Shield component]
[needed for UFO construction?]
[needed for anything that employs alien lifts, if it happens]

TRACTOR BEAM GENERATOR
This large-scale device is used in Alien Bases to assist large UFOs with precise landing.  It employs artificial gravity to decrease and otherwise manipulate mass of large objects at up to 400 metres.  It is, however, far too bulky to be mounted on any flying craft, even the largest UFOs, and therefore provides no advantage to our troops.
[Grav Shield component]

ADVANCED PLASMA PHYSICS
While plasma have been known to human science for decades, it remained highly unpredictable and difficult to produce in a controlled environment.  The alien culture seems to have overcome these obstacles centuries ago, thanks to some dedicated mathematical equations and technological advancements derived from them.  Now we are able to understand and copy this equipment for our own energy needs.
[plasma weapons component]

ALIEN ELECTRONICS
Instead of integrated microprocessors, the aliens use specially grown crystal matrices to create logic machines.  While not inherently faster, these crystals allow for a multi-threaded communication between its nodes, therefore achieving and even surpassing the theoretical quantum computer.  Now we have the rough understanding on how these alien 'electronics' work and even how to program them, but sadly we do not possess the technology to make them from scratch - we need to rely on whatever we can gather on the battlefield.
[prerequisite for advanced tanks, sectopods etc.; may require an actual "alien electronics" component or not, not sure yet]

DELTA RADIATION
Delta rays are completely different from any other sort of radiation known to humanity, as they are shifted out into something that can only be described as 'hyperspace'. These rays generally do not interact with ordinary matter or energy, so they are harmless to humans and impossible to detect with ordinary equipment.  They do, however, react with the Elerium element, exciting its atoms and destabilizing their structure, therefore allowing for quick conversion from matter to energy.  Unfortunately, the right frequency to provoke this reaction makes their range extremely short, which prevents us from disrupting alien weaponry on the battlefield.
[prerequisite for Hyper-Wave Decoder]
[prerequisite for Elerium]
[prerequisite for fusion weapons]
[prerequisite for plasma weapons]
[prerequisite for ANYTHING POWERED BY ELERIUM, PERIOD]


---=== FROM MEDICS ===---

ALIEN NEUROPSYCHOLOGY
While there are many types of alien life forms, they do share certain neuropsychological features that are either inherent to their species or artificially inserted.  These features allow the aliens to cooperate in a hive-like manner, despite obvious biological differences.  These common patterns seem to be related mostly to non-verbal communication, internal visualisation and transmission of simple emotions.  Now we can have expect to be able to somehow tap into their interpersonal communication channels and possibly use it to our advantage.
[Mind Probe prerequisite (which in itself should be a prerequisite to psionics]

GRAVITIC SUBJUGATION
While humans use electrical impulses to cause a neural system to overload, the aliens have developed a much more efficient and safer method, based on gravitic distortion.  A gravity wave of a fine-tuned frequency disrupts higher brain functions within a fraction of a second, while leaving other bodily functions unharmed.  This method is extremely effective in temporarily disabling humans, be it on the battlefield or in alien surgery rooms.
[Small Launcher component]

also:

ALIEN FOOD

ALIEN REPRODUCTION

ALIEN SURGERY
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on May 14, 2014, 07:39:21 pm
This mod grows and grows, ideas upon ideas
i want to suggest an idea how to manage this
first i would split the one big awesome mod into parts:
FMP=BaseData
here are all .rul-items,graphics,.. that are integrated into (most of) the mods
that way anybody who starts with this mod can dis/enable parts of the mod with less chance to crash - the items them self are there they are hidden and is less likely to crash the game if one plays with the additional mod parts
all new items/crafts that can be bought at start have costBuy=0 => hidden
all new items/crafts/techs have STR_ALIENS_ONLY as requirement => hidden

One could try to make FMPBaseData as similar to Vanilla Xcom as possible
or use this to introduce new central concepts like "alien technology" or "power source miniaturization" or "different alloys" or ... and integrate this into a mostly normal game

FMP+Earth_Weapons
earth tech: shotgun, simple medikit, sniper rifle, knifes,...
for directly available weapons the rule is a simple
items:
  - type: STR_YOUR_EARTH_WEAPON
    costBuy: [your value]
for tech/weapons that are allowed with enabling this part remove the STR_ALIEN_ONLY requiremnt is deleted
research:
  - name: STR_YOUR_NEW_TECH
    requires : []

FMP+Gauss_Weapons
enables a laser-like gaus research tree
remove the STR_ALIEN_ONLY requirements

FMP+Earth_Crafts
adds the raven,sentinel,thunderstorm,.. +new fuel?
remove the STR_ALIEN_ONLY requirements

FMP+More_Armor
psi armor, jump armor (dont see the point in >10 armor types but why not)
remove the STR_ALIEN_ONLY requiremnts

FMP+Recycling
remove the STR_ALIEN_ONLY requiremnts
enables elerium/armor/psiolin/alienCPU recovery/recyling

FMP=MoreUfoLayouts
add some more variety
was not mentioned in the thread IIRC

FMP-ComplexWeaponResearch
here it is a bit more complex - there is a dependency: a more complex weapon research tree needs gaussweapons in most diagrams i saw in the thread
solutions:  
that part gives an option to have 13 laser techs or the known treeladder for laser and stuff

FMP-ResearchNeedsAliens
add live alien reseasrch to some specific techs dependencies

FMP-CraftWeaponRebalance
plasma beam mod, ...

FMP-SlowerResearch
increase the research costs for all/some techs
regardles of the dis/enable state of a tech this mod part can still increase the cost in the basemod

FMP-CheapSelling
lower the sell price for some things

further ideas...
FMP-PlasmaDownsize
FMP-RandomUfoRange
FMP-RandomAlienArmor
FMP-SuicideBombAliens
FMP-ResearchNeedsMoreAliens/AlienInterrogationCanFail

perhaps you could see the mod part names have +,= or - as delemiter - that way a user can see what part is giving a benefit, is neutral or makes the game harder

what do you think about this?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 14, 2014, 09:23:40 pm
Well Falko, I used to think the same. However, the experience with Dioxine's Piratez! mod shows that users simply cannot be trusted to handle anything complicated. Said mod consists of three rulesets, all of which must be enabled, and also one folder was supposed to be removed, and it was already too much for some people. Therefore I don't believe these options would work.

What we could do as a compromise is to release one big ruleset, and then separately publish a set of smaller rulesets for those who want more options (I think most people don't). I may be wrong, but that's how I'm seeing it right now.

Now, if I may change the subject: which one of us would handle making the ruleset? I suppose Human Ktulu would be most qualified, as the leader of the project, as long as he feels up to it. I made several parts, but I'm not sure I can handle something this big. Naturally, everyone can publish parts of the mod, but there must be only one person to really integrate them all into one file.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 14, 2014, 10:43:49 pm
Well I make some took a little time to let a little "rest", like cooking :)

Currently I'm consulting some fans of XCom to know if there are other remarks and ideas about the technological tree. The basic idea is more or less defines now, I go worked on the parts defines in the first message. Once a base of works will be finished will be to us able to integrate additional elements, and and finally the work of balancing.

Do not be anxious if that evolves slowly, and still thank you for all your remarks and proposals !
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 15, 2014, 01:59:40 am
OK, perfect.

While I agree we're still in the design phase, I just started making the tech tree ruleset for myself... Which doesn't mean it's set in stone ;) Or that I'll be writing it all by myself :D


EDIT:

Uh... So I couldn't really hold it in and actually started making the ruleset. :P

List of changes so far:

It's all subject to revision of course.

I wonder what to do with lasers; as of now, they're actually after plasma weapons, and I think it's not exactly good. Perhaps I'll make them use some of the new sub-techs? (EDIT: nevermind, I made them require UFO Power Source for now.)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Raidau on May 15, 2014, 07:57:57 am
I wonder what to do with lasers; as of now, they're actually after plasma weapons, and I think it's not exactly good. Perhaps I'll make them use some of the new sub-techs? (EDIT: nevermind, I made them require UFO Power Source for now.)

Why not leave basic lasers independent from alien tech? maybe make elerium-based power sources unlock advanced lasers, with larger clip capacity. I think lasers must stay terran weapon and be a slightly weaker alternative to plasma. They may be balanced by increacing researh time, so player must face a question what to research first.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: civilian on May 15, 2014, 01:19:14 pm
Wow, really ambitious mod here!  :o :o

About the UFOExtender accuracy setting: Ok that completely explains everything. I don't use the option so I can not give feedback there. Fwiw, I am working on a new mod (when not playing OXC, so it will take a long time), it will make the game more difficult and "bare-bone", my plans are e.g. to remove HWPs completely, replace laser weapons with weaker Magneto weapons, remove the flying suits no ability to use alien weapons and and and. The main idea is to focus on infantry tactics without any advanced weaponry. Its your groundtroops and the aliens, nothing else.  ;D Inspiration cam from the Kiryu-Kai, an old local/national/japanese anti-alien force with very limited(but elite) funds and equpiment, they were mentioned in the X-Com timeline docs.

I already made the first raw pictures/icons/sounds for the weapons, but I still have to make the handobjects, which is something I really have diifficulties with, so a release is FAAAAAAAR away  :D

It will be (compared to other mods) a rather stripped-down and clear gameplay, but I became so overwhelmed by all the good weapon mods outthere, that I wanted something more simple. That and I have to find a way to keep the workload managable... ;D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 15, 2014, 01:25:44 pm
Why not leave basic lasers independent from alien tech? maybe make elerium-based power sources unlock advanced lasers, with larger clip capacity. I think lasers must stay terran weapon and be a slightly weaker alternative to plasma. They may be balanced by increacing researh time, so player must face a question what to research first.

That's more or less what we want, the devil is in the details. :) We've actually figured it out before, but now that I started making the ruleset, I think it's a bit crude and probably too dependant on the alien tech.

About the UFOExtender accuracy setting: Ok that completely explains everything. I don't use the option so I can not give feedback there. Fwiw, I am working on a new mod (when not playing OXC, so it will take a long time), it will make the game more difficult and "bare-bone", my plans are e.g. to remove HWPs completely, replace laser weapons with weaker Magneto weapons, remove the flying suits no ability to use alien weapons and and and. The main idea is to focus on infantry tactics without any advanced weaponry. Its your groundtroops and the aliens, nothing else.  ;D Inspiration cam from the Kiryu-Kai, an old local/national/japanese anti-alien force with very limited(but elite) funds and equpiment, they were mentioned in the X-Com timeline docs.

A Kiryu-Kai mod would be really cool. I can imagine it would be a bit of an "alternate history" mod, where the KK was successful enough to prevent formation of X-Com. I can see a lot of new climatic content and general anime feeling. ;) (90's anime no less!)
...or it can present the story of "why Kiryu-Kai failed and X-Com became a necessity" :P

And while we're not exactly going there in this project, I can appreciate some spartan qualities in a game.

EDIT:

update of my experimental ruleset attached. Some more items and dependencies created.

EDIT 2:

Yesterday, Falko brought up a valid point, that it will take goddamn ages to get any substantial tech from the aliens. I though about it and found a way to help with this a little:
I intend to make a series of "data slates" that would be given at random to alien Commanders in bases. Researching these slates would give one of these new component tech. Therefore, if you're really bad at capturing aliens, you can still raid their bases.
Ideally, this knowledge would rather come from the alien command centres (so you'd have to capture them intact), but assigning new effects to MCDs is complicated and I don't know how to make it give random tech.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 15, 2014, 09:22:21 pm
Can you modify the diagram in first post for better visualisation of your proposal ?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 16, 2014, 12:33:57 am
Can you modify the diagram in first post for better visualisation of your proposal ?

I can, but with so much new tech it'll be kinda messy... :P

But yeah, I'll do it. I need a bit of time to do so.

EDIT:

OK, here it is. I hope I haven't made any glaring errors, since I got lost in all those versions and had to build this almost from scratch. At least I found a few things to fix.

I omitted tanks from the diagram, it's already a bit confusing without showing them; but they're there. :)

EDIT 2:

Yeah, I know it's not exactly as we discussed - there are small changes. They are there because, well, during working on it some decisions just appear as logical...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 16, 2014, 11:10:39 pm
Hello Solarius,

I have seen this tree tech and I have one question : when is it weapons plasma to recover on the alien ? no need to know to manufacture them to use them !
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 17, 2014, 01:01:02 am
Hello Solarius,

I have seen this tree tech and I have one question : when is it weapons plasma to recover on the alien ? no need to know to manufacture them to use them !

Fair point. However, I don't really know how to go about it yet...

Basically, there are two possibilities:
1) Alien weapons are just weapons. Interrogate any sentient alien and he'll sing what button to push to make the plasma beam appear.
2) Alien weapons have some mumbo jumbo safety triggers that prevent us from summoning said plasma beam, even when pushing the right buttons.

Problem with the first possibility: it's trivial. Even researching plasma weapons is unnecessary, just use a hot iron spike on that Floater and he'll tell you everything.
Problem with the second possibility: it's probably stupid. I've seen many proposed solutions to this, and I think they all sucked.

Since we have the consensus (I think) that we don't want plasmas to appear as our weapons too early and push everything else aside, then we must deal with option two. Since I couldn't think of anything that wouldn't be stupid, I decided to... well... ignore the problem for now. Until we think of something that would more or less keep the present setup and also justify why torturing some poor Sectoid wouldn't give you the ability to use them. Hopefully.

Plasma weapons aside, I started a campaign with these rules and I must (immodestly) say that I really like the pacing. It's April already, I'm using the same old weapons, hunting live aliens for little bits of information and loving it!

EDIT: Can we please add Civilian's upgraded Skyranger as the Alloy Skyranger? It has a new tileset, two more soldier slots and a more sensible layout, but is similar. It just makes a nice flow, perhaps the first real upgrade of X-Com. I can attach the updated Vessel mod if you want.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Raidau on May 17, 2014, 02:45:12 pm
Fair point. However, I don't really know how to go about it yet...

Basically, there are two possibilities:
1) Alien weapons are just weapons. Interrogate any sentient alien and he'll sing what button to push to make the plasma beam appear.
2) Alien weapons have some mumbo jumbo safety triggers that prevent us from summoning said plasma beam, even when pushing the right buttons.

Problem with the first possibility: it's trivial. Even researching plasma weapons is unnecessary, just use a hot iron spike on that Floater and he'll tell you everything.
Problem with the second possibility: it's probably stupid. I've seen many proposed solutions to this, and I think they all sucked.

Since we have the consensus (I think) that we don't want plasmas to appear as our weapons too early and push everything else aside, then we must deal with option two. Since I couldn't think of anything that wouldn't be stupid, I decided to... well... ignore the problem for now. Until we think of something that would more or less keep the present setup and also justify why torturing some poor Sectoid wouldn't give you the ability to use them. Hopefully.

Plasma weapons aside, I started a campaign with these rules and I must (immodestly) say that I really like the pacing. It's April already, I'm using the same old weapons, hunting live aliens for little bits of information and loving it!

My opinion about plasma is very simple. You can use alien weapons after researching it like in vanilla, but to reproduce them and develop new plasma tech (e.g. plasma beam) you gonna go through that painful tech tree challenge. So you will be limited to those weapons and ammo that you recover until you figure out how to reproduce them.  (And if alien equipment self-distruction is enabled you should not have lots of plasma weaponry)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: civilian on May 17, 2014, 02:59:00 pm
Another option would be: You are able to use them, but not to manufacture them or their clips. Also would make stun more important (if you use the self-destructing weapon option)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Raidau on May 17, 2014, 03:30:05 pm
or their clips.

Of course, it goes without saying :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 17, 2014, 04:58:56 pm
My opinion about plasma is very simple. You can use alien weapons after researching it like in vanilla, but to reproduce them and develop new plasma tech (e.g. plasma beam) you gonna go through that painful tech tree challenge. So you will be limited to those weapons and ammo that you recover until you figure out how to reproduce them.

That's what I thought, too; however, the problem is, there is a steady income of plasma clips that outweighs your needs by far. Therefore, the only difference would be not having plasma cannons - which admittedly is significant, but doesn't affect ground combat at all (save for hovertanks). So while logical and all, this solution is sadly not enough. Unless we develop it somehow :)

(And if alien equipment self-distruction is enabled you should not have lots of plasma weaponry)

No, this option is beyond retarded from a logical point of view and I don't even consider it. :) Even for the sake of game balance. (For why it's retarded, there were many discussions already, but it mostly comes down to the fact that this sort of a safety measure would be extremely susceptible to enemy sabotage, possibly disarming an entire army with a push of a button. Plus some other safety/technical issues.)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 17, 2014, 08:20:27 pm
Or simply use "Terran Plasma Weapon" mod and make alien weapon unuseable for humain. But maybe allow to recycle it.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on May 17, 2014, 08:56:31 pm
  • ...
  • Alien Biology unlocked by autopsies of non-mechanical aliens
  • Alien Containment requires Alien Biology
  • ...


I propose you an idea

To be unlocked, Alien Containment needs :
- Alien Biology
- Alien Food Researched
- Alien Entertainment Researched
- Alien Reproduction Researched
- Examination Room Researched
- Alien Surgery Researched

To build an Alien Containment :
- Alien Containment Researched
- Some Raw Materials
   - n Alien Food
   - m Alien Entertainment
   - 1 Alien Reproduction (some parts of it are required)
   - 1 Examination Room (some parts of it are required)
   - 1 Alien Surgery (some parts of it are required)
- Money

I propose this for two reasons :
- to postpone alien containment research
- because Alien Food, Alien Entertainment, Alien Reproduction, Examination Room and Alien Surgery are unused, what is a little bit frustrating

(based on your NEW+Mod PDF)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on May 17, 2014, 09:07:48 pm
you cant define raw materials for facility building (just money+time)
with live aliens needed for everything and 5 new needed things for Alien Containment why not just change the building time for laboratory to 90 day for the first 3 month there would be almost nothing to do -> same result :)

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 17, 2014, 09:24:26 pm
I do not wish to complex this part more than necessary. If it need alive aliens to make research, it is necessary to be able to place them easily.

Quote
EDIT: Can we please add Civilian's upgraded Skyranger as the Alloy Skyranger? It has a new tileset, two more soldier slots and a more sensible layout, but is similar. It just makes a nice flow, perhaps the first real upgrade of X-Com. I can attach the updated Vessel mod if you want.
Why not ? Actualy i use Skyranger & Avenger sides doors.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on May 17, 2014, 09:37:48 pm
you cant define raw materials for facility building (just money+time)
You are right, too bad... Thanks for info

with live aliens needed for everything and 5 new needed things for Alien Containment why not just change the building time for laboratory to 90 day for the first 3 month there would be almost nothing to do -> same result :)

You are not wrong...

I do not want to convince you (in fact you help me a lot), anyway just to explain what I have in mind :

(Most of following ideas are not from me)

1) If, for example , you define :
- Any live alien is needed for Containment Research
- A live Sectoid Medic is needed for Medikit Research
- A live Muton Soldier is needed for Plasma Pistol Research
- A live Muton Leader is needed for Plasma Rifle Research
- ...
final idea is to assign some missions to your soldiers any time you want to progress (sometimes even to produce)

2) To make it playable and understandable, have to explain this somewhere, I have in mind : in previous research result

For example, once Plasma Pistol research has been completed, Research result could specifiy at end of report : "Leads to following Research :  Plasma Rifle - Needed : Live Muton Leader"

But do not take care of this, you make a really good job
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 18, 2014, 12:01:40 am
I do not wish to complex this part more than necessary. If it need alive aliens to make research, it is necessary to be able to place them easily.

Yeah, this. It's already a bit hard to get anywhere, let's not make it even harder - the player needs to feel some progress.

Or simply use "Terran Plasma Weapon" mod and make alien weapon unuseable for humain. But maybe allow to recycle it.

Well, as I said many times, aliens have hands like us. Why would they be able to use weapons we don't.

Why not ? Actualy i use Skyranger & Avenger sides doors.

Oh good, I'll attach a slight modification of your craft mod to include this.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on May 18, 2014, 12:30:49 am
I will give my advice even if I am not invited to ;)

My advice alone is nothing, but in case many would think the same, this would mean that this should be perhaps discussed

So, I like this idea of Terran Weapons

Your argument explaining that Aliens have hands like humans is right
But aliens have not same brain as humans
So it could be, that we are simply not able to use directly their technology, as they have thought it with their own brain
However, research make us able to create a similar one, not exactly the same
And we are not living in same conditions, not on same planet, not on same environment, not from same culture, ...

In fact I vote for Terran Weapons because I like their look and the work done is of high quality...

Perhaps can it be something done in a later step

Your "Long SkyRanger" is nice
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on May 18, 2014, 12:40:16 am
my prefered playstyle in regard to plasma is now plasma weapon nerfed for humans + terran plasma as update option
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 18, 2014, 01:07:06 am
Guys, I really don't want to come off as unwelcoming to your ideas, I am actually desperate for them, but while I can't speak for the whole team, I cannot suspend my disbelief that high. Aliens have different minds, sure, but they interact with the same outside world that we do, and tools in their hands must work the same ass in our hands. Especially tools with a purpose as primal as killing.

I was thinking about some sort of a psionic lock on alien weapons (note how they don't have scopes!), but it's of no use - the actual mechanism is purely physical, so our scientists would easily circumvent any safety guards given enough time. Which is exactly what happens in vanilla, I think.

And by the way: the problem isn't that alien weapons are too powerful in X-Com hands; the problem is that you get them too soon, which invalidates almost all other weapons so you don't have the time to enjoy them.

---====---

Now, regarding my test campaign. I decided to become a little more forthcoming to the players and move the getOneFree feature with key techs to Leaders and Commanders as well. The reason is, Engineers are a bit too easy to come by in enough quantities, and even if you catch one, it'll likely result ion something useless, like some UFO information. Since Leaders and Commanders must come from somewhere, I assume they may have some engineering and medical knowledge, so now they also yield this information (but not the standard UFO/alien race info).

In May, I encountered a Large Scout with Ethereals (playing on Veteran). Man, this was unbelievably hard with no sci-fi weapons; I certainly wouldn't have managed without save scumming. I somehow managed with explosives, a flamer and a minigun, but man. Still, I kinda like this balance, after all you don't have to win, or even attempt, every mission.

I also increased Tank/Cannon's damage, because it was next to useless. It's still nothing awesome, but at least it has a chance to kill a mid-tier alien now. Update in the attachment (also new sounds etc.).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on May 18, 2014, 01:16:19 am
Continue to stay the course, even if sometimes we issue a different opinion : your job is globally excellent and coherent, and will provide big improvements


EDIT : Solar, a question...

I tried to open your Skyranger with Mapview I just downloaded from Luke portal (version "updated") and there is an error anytime I try to open SKYRANGER, however it works with any other
- I renamed first all of your files PLANE_X.xxx to PLANE.xxx
- Icopy them in a new UFO directory, in respective subdirectories
Failure
I tried with original Skyranger files, same failure (Exception due to data key that does not exist in dictionnary)

Could you tell me which tool (an eventually which release) you used to work on Skyranger ?

(I tried this version https://openxcommods.weebly.com/general-map-creation.html then https://github.com/pmprog/OpenXCOM.Tools/tree/master/Distribution, and another lnk I found on this site, but same result)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: yrizoud on May 18, 2014, 02:22:17 am
you get them too soon, which invalidates almost all other weapons so you don't have the time to enjoy them.
IMO the most "reasonable" system would be that those weapons are awfully inaccurate in human hands in the beginning, because they simply lack the training. An interesting "side effect" is that this practice would consume clips of the specific weapon.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 18, 2014, 11:49:08 am
EDIT : Solar, a question...

I tried to open your Skyranger with Mapview I just downloaded from Luke portal (version "updated") and there is an error anytime I try to open SKYRANGER, however it works with any other
- I renamed first all of your files PLANE_X.xxx to PLANE.xxx
- Icopy them in a new UFO directory, in respective subdirectories
Failure
I tried with original Skyranger files, same failure (Exception due to data key that does not exist in dictionnary)

Could you tell me which tool (an eventually which release) you used to work on Skyranger ?

(I tried this version https://openxcommods.weebly.com/general-map-creation.html then https://github.com/pmprog/OpenXCOM.Tools/tree/master/Distribution, and another lnk I found on this site, but same result)

It's a little mistake in ruleset. Replace the 2 strings "PLANE_2" to "PLANE_X". Solar may already corrected that. I tried this vessel and it's very interesting path !
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 18, 2014, 12:47:00 pm
It's a little mistake in ruleset. Replace the 2 strings "PLANE_2" to "PLANE_X". Solar may already corrected that. I tried this vessel and it's very interesting path !

Yeah, I think I messed up, it was extremely late. :P
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on May 18, 2014, 02:18:29 pm
It's a little mistake in ruleset. Replace the 2 strings "PLANE_2" to "PLANE_X". Solar may already corrected that. I tried this vessel and it's very interesting path !

But it has nothing to do with Ruleset as I am speaking about opening it with MapView and not playing with it

Solar, could you just tell me which tool you used to update it, as it seems MapView does not succeed to read it ?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 18, 2014, 02:35:24 pm
I didn't use any tools like these, I just took a finished map from Civilian's package and added it to the ruleset. I never tried to open it myself.

I'll add these files again, in their raw state.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 18, 2014, 08:48:17 pm
I'm return on tree tech. I understand what you want to do and I am of agreement on the principle. But it is as much important to find occurrences interesting. I currently concentrate myself on this problem.

On the other hand, this project takes proportions considerable on this thread. I propose to separate it by sections and preserving this thread for the techtree. I occupy myself to create the corresponding threads.

Thanks !

[EDIT] Done ! Now, please to talk in valid section with quoting if necessary. This thread only continu for tech tree part.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on May 19, 2014, 02:05:42 am
Well done for the split, Human


Always in order to share some ideas with you (that you will consider or not, no problem from my side as I am creating my own mod too), I will illustrate my suggestion of "displaying research goals"

Let's have a look at the example of MediKit : as I have integrated the wonderful Luke's civilian Medikit, I added some steps to reach enhanced MediKit

Better is to display screen shots


1) First is "Onboard Medical Research" (very quick) just to request for researching 2) "Alien Surgery"
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on May 19, 2014, 03:59:30 am
Next step is 3) "Alien Mecical Research" (very quick) just to annonce the need of 4) "Alien Medic" and 5) "Alien Alloys"
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on May 19, 2014, 04:00:36 am
Note that "Sectoid Medic" unlocks "Alien Medic Principles"
It does not properly display "we can now study : Alien Medical Principles", it has to do with Unlocking system but I have not found yet the cause of this
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on May 19, 2014, 04:01:29 am
At the end, researching 5) Alloys Alien will set MediKit as available

This could be done in more or less steps

The idea is to drive player so that he can make choices depending on his strategic goals

I attach ruleset in case someone is interested (it includes an attempt of english translation). Warning : this is a wip whose goal is to evaluate principle of adding objectives forms (lot of value are not relevant, but improve testing conditions)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 20, 2014, 11:53:09 am
Thanks Aldorn! I stole a little bit of your code, it's better than what I came up with.

As for my trial campaign, I think I'll have to start over. Accumulated small mistakes of my ruleset that kept coming up really distorted the balance of my game... So perhaps it would be best to start from the beginning.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 21, 2014, 12:23:40 am
Hello,

For the tech tree I have maybe an idea of compromise. If aliens artefact use an complex "mind & genetic locking" unbreakable system, Human's can't use directly plasma/fusion weaponry. These articles can only be "dismounted" (produce special weapon parts item) or sold. As soon as research is finished, the weapons can only be manufactured with "weapon parts", and allow to manufacture this spare items (complex manufacturing).

We can use "terrain plasma" mod for the mod architecture, but using the same sprite for "alien" item and "terran" item. We can only make new labels, exemple for plasma rifle :
- Plasma Rifle (alien weapon unuseable for human)
- Retrofit Plasma Rifle (for human)

Idea for the plasma rifle weapons part (research with random system of engineer interogation  ?) :
- Plasma Filter (give by item and advanced plasma physics)
- Gravity Containement (give by item and alien gravity generator)
- Particle Accelerator (give by item and particle acceleration)
- Rays Concentrator (give by item and Delta radiation)

For resume : you kill an alien, take alien weapon, dismount it in workshop and study weapon part with engineer interogation. Finally this allow it to manufacture the weapon component, and "assemble" new weapon manufacture.

What do you think about this ?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 21, 2014, 01:37:16 am
Hello,

For the tech tree I have maybe an idea of compromise. If aliens artefact use an complex "mind & genetic locking" unbreakable system, Human's can't use directly plasma/fusion weaponry.

As much as I hate raining on your parade (since I also want to solve this problem), I don't think it could be any sort of genetic/psionic safety check - something like this would be hacked pretty quickly... But I know you understand this, judging from your next ideas. :)

These articles can only be "dismounted" (produce special weapon parts item) or sold. As soon as research is finished, the weapons can only be manufactured with "weapon parts", and allow to manufacture this spare items (complex manufacturing).

But... but... it's basically the same thing. :) You can't use plasma weapons, but you can dismantle them and put them back together, which means you still end up with the same Heavy Plasma - okay, it may look different, but it's the same weapon really, just without any safety checks or other needless stuff.

I do like your plasma parts, but there are two issues:
1) They're basically unnecessary to the gameplay. Because I think the idea of "take apart and rebuild" plasma weapons adds little to the game, both gameplay-wise and logical-wise.
2) I think we'd have to make components for other weapons and equipment too, to make things balanced and smooth.

So, well, I would like some more technical semi-products, but they'd be kind of anal to take care of all the time...

Now, regardless of whether we add them or not, I would also like to present another approach to the problem. When in doubt, go back to the roots, and such roots to me is Hobbes' novel X-Com: Unknown Menace (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/245417/1/XCOM-The-Unknown-Menace), which I sort of forgot about until now. In this book, Hobbes proposed a simple explanation for the plasma weapons: calibration. Elerium clips must be calibrated very frequently (like, every 24 hours), otherwise they will not function. And this calibration is a tricky thing to do, requiring plenty of knowledge.

What does it offer us? Well, let's see again on what we need to make plasma weapons according to my current proposal:

Code: [Select]
  - name: STR_PLASMA_WEAPONS
    cost: 500
    points: 25
    dependencies:
      - STR_DELTA_RADIATION
      - STR_PARTICLE_MICROACCELERATION
      - STR_ALIEN_GRAVITY_GENERATOR
      - STR_ADVANCED_PLASMA_PHYSICS

However, in order to use plasmas we don't need to know how to make them, only how to calibrate them. Therefore, perhaps this would be in order:

Code: [Select]
  - name: STR_PLASMA_WEAPONS_CALIBRATION
    cost: 500
    points: 25
    dependencies:
      - STR_DELTA_RADIATION
      - STR_ALIEN_GRAVITY_GENERATOR
      - STR_ALIEN_ELECTRONICS

This is a bit easier to unlock, but sort of explains why you can now use plasma weapons. This would allow you to research plasma pistol, plasma rifle etc., but you wouldn't be able to build them, only use them. and you certainly don't get Plasma Cannons!
(Naturally, STR_PLASMA_WEAPONS_CALIBRATION would be one more dependency for Plasma Weapons.)

Code: [Select]
  - name: STR_PLASMA_WEAPONS
    cost: 500
    points: 25
    dependencies:
      - STR_PLASMA_WEAPONS_CALIBRATION
      - STR_PARTICLE_MICROACCELERATION
      - STR_ADVANCED_PLASMA_PHYSICS

And analogically, there would be a similar modification for the fusion weapons.

What do you think?

PS. Your weapon component suggestion is still possible, I am not against it on principle (because it's cool!), but we need to make sure it won't become too tiresome to use.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on May 21, 2014, 03:34:39 am
I will give my opinion once more  ;)

As you know, I like terran weapons

But I have to admit that your idea is very sexy : discovering how to use Plasma weapons, but not be able to build them, neither weapons nor ammunition

After all, humans have already possibility to build Laser and Gauss weapons...

Finally, perhaps will I use these Terran weapons sprites for alien side (as elite weapons for Reptoid ? or Ethereal ?) with no possibility for human to calibrate them...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on May 21, 2014, 11:37:20 pm
Hum, "calibrate" operations ... Not bad, I need to think on that.  :P

[EDIT] Ok, I understand your proposal. The difficulty is that it is now necessary to take into account the probabilities. In the last situation, we researchs laser pistol in 7 steps, and use plasma (pistol+rifle+sniper+heavy+caster+blaster ?) in 7 steps too if you have enormous lucky. So for laser you have only 12.5% chance to found "anti-matter containement" in first, and for plasma you have 37.5%, then 28.5% and finally 16.5% of chance to found the 3 using empty tech in first.

It's not easy to to anticipate all possibilities, but it's possible to unlock laser and plasma in same time 50% of time ?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 22, 2014, 04:28:20 am
Human Ktulu, frankly I didn't really understand your post. I assume your question is: how much easier, statistically speaking, is it to get hand-held laser weapons than plasma weapons calibration?

Provided that your percentages are right, then (according to Dioxine's calculations) you have 18/1000 chance to get plasma weapons calibration in just 7 steps, as opposed to 160/1000 chance to get hand-held laser weapons. Therefore, you'll almost never get plasmas before lasers, and you'll probably have lasers much earlier than plasmas.
I'm still messing around with the tech tree though, so I'm not sure if Anti-Matter Containment should be necessary for hand-held lasers (and hand-held Gauss weapons). Perhaps UFO Power Source would be enough? Then you would get them some time in late March or April, I guess, which is definitely not as fast as in vanilla game, so you still have time to play with traditional firearms (first without, then with alloy ammo). On the other hand, that would mean we're losing the miniaturisation aspect: you have Laser Cannon, and then you can research Laser Rifle straight away, with no additional technology needed, which is a bit weird (hence Anti-Matter Containment was introduced). I would be happy to hear your opinion here.

A separate idea: now at the very beginning of the game, the only thing you can research before the first UFO appears is the Motion Scanner. I was wondering if perhaps you would have to research tanks as well, just to make things more complicated... But that would mean you'd have to produce them too. What do you think?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on May 22, 2014, 10:48:11 am
On the other hand, that would mean we're losing the miniaturisation aspect: you have Laser Cannon, and then you can research Laser Rifle straight away, with no additional technology needed, which is a bit weird (hence Anti-Matter Containment was introduced).
Without reopening debate on miniaturisation, it would be nice if this "miniaturisation aspect" could be proposed as an option, letting us free to activate it, or not...  ::)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 22, 2014, 11:04:21 am
Without reopening debate on miniaturisation, it would be nice if this "miniaturisation aspect" could be proposed as an option, letting us free to activate it, or not...  ::)

I have no idea we've had such a debate. What was its outcome?

Also, what do you mean by an option? Two different rulesets?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on May 22, 2014, 12:28:38 pm
I have no idea we've had such a debate. What was its outcome?
Vanilla is Laser Weapons > Laser Pistol > Laser Rifle > Heavy Laser
I assume miniaturisation concept is to invert this sequence, and if I well remember (but right now I don't find any mention about this...), this had been debated in the past somewhere on this site, with many arguments in favour of this concept, and many against it

Also, what do you mean by an option? Two different rulesets?
I let you find the better way  ;)
(Certainly in a later step, as an improvement of your Final Mod Pack, go on your way)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 22, 2014, 12:47:50 pm
Vanilla is Laser Weapons > Laser Pistol > Laser Rifle > Heavy Laser
I assume miniaturisation concept is to invert this sequence, and if I well remember (but right now I don't find any mention about this...), this had been debated in the past somewhere on this site, with many arguments in favour of this concept, and many against it

Well, it was settled some time ago that we get big guns first, and hand guns later - as proposed by Human Ktulu and accepted by me, while nobody objected. So I assume this is what we're doing. Of course if I'm wrong, please reprimand me :)

I let you find the better way  ;)
(Certainly in a later step, as an improvement of your Final Mod Pack, go on your way)

Sure, there can be variants at some point, but for now we need one clear-cut, coherent concept... Of course debates and criticism are still good. :)

By the way, I'll attach the current state of the tech ruleset - for reference and as a backup. It's very WIP though.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on May 22, 2014, 12:54:41 pm
Sure, there can be variants at some point, but for now we need one clear-cut, coherent concept... Of course debates and criticism are still good. :)
I agree this  ;)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on May 26, 2014, 04:21:15 pm
Since I haven't received any reply yet concerning the miniaturization issue, I finally decided to go with it - now you can research Power source Miniaturization to be used in laser and Gauss weapons. I'll start a new campaign and see how it works.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on June 05, 2014, 11:23:32 am
Solarius, could you make a status on this part of FMP ? I mean : do you think it is completed, or do you plan to include some more new research topics ?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 07, 2014, 04:38:04 pm
Solarius, could you make a status on this part of FMP ? I mean : do you think it is completed, or do you plan to include some more new research topics ?

I think it's more or less completed, except the armours which we haven't done anything with yet.

However, "more or less completed" in this case means "not really completed", since I'm still playing around with small details and I'm sure some of you guys are doing the same, or will be. I'll post an update soon.

Plus, I'm sure the mod will evolve over time, as OpenXCom develops and opens new mechanics to play with... And of course with new great mods that will be worthy of incorporating into the project!

EDIT: an update. Remember it requires the newest Firearms Compilation v. 1.7 ruleset to work with this properly.
If you're using Alien Armoury Expanded, use the version I'm attaching here as well.

WARNING: the tech tree ruleset contains stuff related to new alien races, such as Waspites and Reptoids. This shouldn't cause problems, but if it crashes (for example because you interrogate a Medic and get info on Waspites), then this content will have to be removed or you'll have to install these races.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on June 09, 2014, 07:39:43 pm
Thanks dude

I am sure you know that, anyway I take the risk to give you some advice about your ruleset, in order to make it easier for people like me to reuse/integrate it as a part of a more global mod : better is to not repeat standard values that do not change :
- lesser chance to redefine same rules with different values (in different mod files)
- avoid checking systematically original values that have finally not been updated

For example, rather than
Code: [Select]
  - name: STR_UFO_NAVIGATION
    cost: 450
    points: 30
    needItem: true
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALIEN_POWER_SYSTEMS
  - name: STR_ELERIUM_115
    cost: 450
    points: 60
    needItem: true
    dependencies:
      - STR_DELTA_RADIATION
  - name: STR_UFO_CONSTRUCTION
    cost: 450
    points: 30
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALIEN_ALLOYS
      - STR_ELERIUM_115
      - STR_UFO_POWER_SOURCE
      - STR_UFO_NAVIGATION
      - STR_ALIEN_GRAVITY_GENERATOR
a nice way could be
Code: [Select]
  - name: STR_UFO_NAVIGATION
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALIEN_POWER_SYSTEMS #NEW
  - name: STR_ELERIUM_115
    dependencies:
      - STR_DELTA_RADIATION #NEW
  - name: STR_UFO_CONSTRUCTION
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALIEN_ALLOYS
      - STR_ELERIUM_115
      - STR_UFO_POWER_SOURCE
      - STR_UFO_NAVIGATION
      - STR_ALIEN_GRAVITY_GENERATOR #NEW

Congrats for the job  ;)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 10, 2014, 06:04:58 pm
I am sure you know that, anyway I take the risk to give you some advice about your ruleset

Yeah, thanks, I know this is in no way presentable nor user friendly. :P I should reorganize this somehow...

EDIT:

Done. I grouped techs by whether they're old (modified) or new, as well as removed some stuff which went to the weapons ruleset.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on June 15, 2014, 02:58:35 pm
Solar, beware that "STR_ER_SYSTEMS_UFOPEDIA" has to be replaced with "STR_ALIEN_POWER_SYSTEMS_UFOPEDIA"
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 15, 2014, 03:35:10 pm
Solar, beware that "STR_ER_SYSTEMS_UFOPEDIA" has to be replaced with "STR_ALIEN_POWER_SYSTEMS_UFOPEDIA"

Thanks, indeed. Fix posted.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 21, 2014, 01:52:46 am
Regarding my test play:

At the end of September 1999, project X-Com was terminated. Yes, I lost the game.

What happened? Frankly, I have no idea. All I know is that two months in a row I got over -4000 points. This certainly wasn't happening during the previous months, so I suspect it has something to do with the latest build. Sure, there were several Battleships I did nothing about, but during the last month, I cleared two alien bases, netting ~1250 each! So I don't know what has gotten into the game.

What now? First, I'll check all the mods (especially those which weren't made by me) to confirm that there's no error in alien activity data. Then I will have to start from the beginning, I guess. This will certainly cause a delay in the FMP creation, but I need to be sure that it's not an issue with the mod.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: niculinux [RETIRED/QUIT] on June 21, 2014, 09:59:34 am
Regarding my test play:

At the end of September 1999, project X-Com was terminated. Yes, I lost the game.

What happened? Frankly, I have no idea. All I know is that two months in a row I got over -4000 points. This certainly wasn't happening during the previous months, so I suspect it has something to do with the latest build. Sure, there were several Battleships I did nothing about, but during the last month, I cleared two alien bases, netting ~1250 each! So I don't know what has gotten into the game.

What now? First, I'll check all the mods (especially those which weren't made by me) to confirm that there's no error in alien activity data. Then I will have to start from the beginning, I guess. This will certainly cause a delay in the FMP creation, but I need to be sure that it's not an issue with the mod.

:, (
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Human Ktulu on June 21, 2014, 08:14:39 pm
Which difficulty level you play ? In max level I found more difficult to intercept UFO. You have cover all planet with radar monitoring ?

ps : Sorry for moment it's very difficult for me to fallow/develop this project. I have all trust to Solarius and hope return with you very soon.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 26, 2014, 02:19:49 am
Which difficulty level you play ?

Veteran. Which, apparently, I am not. XD

In max level I found more difficult to intercept UFO. You have cover all planet with radar monitoring ?

Not completely, I got a little too relaxed maybe; I had 4 bases (Turkey, South America, the US and Mongolia). I certainly should have had South Africa and Australia too, and perhaps Antarctica.
And I should have hired more than 50 scientists.

ps : Sorry for moment it's very difficult for me to fallow/develop this project. I have all trust to Solarius and hope return with you very soon.

Thanks for your kind words. This project is still a common work, and we won't let you down! :)


EDIT:
Researched Alloy Ammo. However, the report showed the Ufopedia page for Auto-Cannon alien alloy magazine instead.
So I checked everything. All strings, relations, the stuff. Everything's fine.
After an hour or so, I still can't find anything wrong with the ruleset. And the issue persists.
WHAT THE HELL AM I DOING WRONG?!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on June 26, 2014, 02:21:57 am
I know what is wrong. I will post the solution.

Strange is that I just discovered this as I had 4 issues with UFOPAEDIA.

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 26, 2014, 02:41:55 am
I know what is wrong. I will post the solution.

Please do! This waiting is killing me! :D

(Even though after you explain this, I will probably feel a sudden urge to lobotomise myself for being an idiot.)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on June 26, 2014, 02:47:34 am
(Even though after you explain this, I will probably feel a sudden urge to lobotomise myself for being an idiot.)
Absolutely not, that was very hard to find

But finally...

I will take example about issues that occured, hoping it will help you to solve yours (I am confident)

I had this kind of UFOPAEDIA settings

XCOM Enforcer
ufopaedia:
  - id: STR_XCOM_ENFORCER
    type_id: 3
    section: STR_HEAVY_WEAPONS_PLATFORMS
    weapon: STR_PLASMA_CANNON
    text: STR_XCOM_ENFORCER_UFOPEDIA
    requires:
      - STR_MIND_PROBE
      - STR_PLASMA_CANNON
      - STR_POWER_SUIT
      - STR_ADVANCED_ROBOTICS

HoverTank Gauss
ufopaedia:
  - id: STR_HOVERTANK_GAUSS
    type_id: 3
    section: STR_HEAVY_WEAPONS_PLATFORMS
    text: STR_HOVERTANK_GAUSS_UFOPEDIA
    weapon: STR_HWP_GAUSS_CANNON
    requires:
      - STR_GAUSS_CANNON
      - STR_NEW_FIGHTER_CRAFT

Alloy Ammunition
ufopaedia:
# Alien Alloy Ammunition
  - id: STR_PISTOL_AA_CLIP
    type_id: 4
    section: STR_WEAPONS_AND_EQUIPMENT
    text: STR_PISTOL_AA_CLIP_UFOPEDIA
    requires:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO

  - id: STR_RIFLE_AA_CLIP
    type_id: 4
    section: STR_WEAPONS_AND_EQUIPMENT
    text: STR_RIFLE_AA_CLIP_UFOPEDIA
    requires:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO

And I faced some strange behaviour, as for example
1) XCOMEnforcer :
- clicking on Mind Probe under UFOPAEDIA : text was ok, title was ok, but image was wrong (was Plasma Rifle sprite, but in fact that was accurately XCOMEnforcer weapon sprite), and there was a power value on right side.
- once on Mind Probe, clicking on >> did not jump to next item but to some HWP
- once on Mind Probe, clicking on << did not jump to previous item but to some UFO
In fact, it behaved as if Mind Probe pointed on XCOMEnforcer UFOPAEDIA entry

2) Alloy Ammunitions :
- as soon as research on Allloy Ammunition was performed, it displayed "Alloy SkyRanger" UFOPAEDIA report, rather than "Alloy Ammunition" UFOPAEDIA report
- under UFOPAEDIA, selecting Alloy ammunition was not displaying "Alloy Ammunition" UFOPAEDIA report (under Advanced Research section) , but PISTOL AA CLIP UFOPAEDIA report (don't ask why, but I added report for any ammunition : regular, gauss, laser, plasma, and also alien alloy)
- then using << or >> made it jump into WEAPONS section
In fact, it behaved as if Alloy Ammunition pointed on first AA Ammo UFOPAEDIA entry (also PISTOL AA CLIP)

To avoid such strange behaviour, we have to follow rules below
1) Always have one and only one "requires:" for any UFOPAEDIA entry (cf. XCOMEnforcer below)
2) Reciprocally, this "requires:" has to trigger one and only one UFOPAEDIA entry (cf. Alloy ammunition below)
3) If necessary, create a new RESEARCH entry with cost 0 including as dependencies the corresponding "requires:"

I tried to use lookup, ... to make it work, nothing to do : I made it work only this way

XCOMEnforcer : fixed as follows
ufopaedia:
  - id: STR_XCOM_ENFORCER
    type_id: 3
    section: STR_HEAVY_WEAPONS_PLATFORMS
    weapon: STR_PLASMA_CANNON
    text: STR_XCOM_ENFORCER_UFOPEDIA
    requires:
      - STR_XCOM_ENFORCER
      - STR_MIND_PROBE
      - STR_PLASMA_CANNON
      - STR_POWER_SUIT
      - STR_ADVANCED_ROBOTICS


research:
# XCom Enforcer
  - name: STR_XCOM_ENFORCER
    cost: 0
    points: 0
    dependencies:
      - STR_ADVANCED_ROBOTICS
      - STR_MIND_PROBE
      - STR_PLASMA_CANNON
      - STR_POWER_SUIT

Alien Alloy Ammunition : fixed as follows
ufopaedia:
# Alien Alloy Ammunition
  - id: STR_PISTOL_AA_CLIP
    type_id: 4
    section: STR_WEAPONS_AND_EQUIPMENT
    text: STR_PISTOL_AA_CLIP_UFOPEDIA
    requires:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO
      - STR_PISTOL_AA_CLIP

  - id: STR_RIFLE_AA_CLIP
    type_id: 4
    section: STR_WEAPONS_AND_EQUIPMENT
    text: STR_RIFLE_AA_CLIP_UFOPEDIA
    requires:
      - STR_RIFLE_AA_CLIP

research:
  - name: STR_PISTOL_AA_CLIP
    cost: 0
    points: 0
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO
  - name: STR_RIFLE_AA_CLIP
    cost: 0
    points: 0
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO

Since I apply these rules, I have no more issue with Ufopaedia entries neither with Research reports...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 26, 2014, 02:57:26 am
Hmm... Thanks, that's interesting, but I don't think it relates to my problem, since I don't have multiple prerequisites in the Ufopedia.

Code: [Select]
ufopaedia:
  - id: STR_ALLOY_AMMO
    type_id: 8
    section: STR_WEAPONS_AND_EQUIPMENT
    requires:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO
    text: STR_ALLOY_AMMO_UFOPEDIA

This is the entire entry.

And the research is:
Code: [Select]
  - name: STR_ALLOY_AMMO
    cost: 600
    points: 30
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALIEN_ALLOYS

Completing this research gives access to all alloy ammo types (STR_RIFLE_AA_CLIP, STR_HC_AA_AMMO, STR_AC_AA_AMMO, STR_HMG_AA_CLIP, STR_SNIPER_RIFLE_AA_CLIP etc.)

Maybe - just maybe - the problem somehow lies in the fact that I have it divided into two separate rulesets. I'll try merging them, but I need Ktulu's approval first. Besides, I don't think it would matter.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on June 26, 2014, 03:15:04 am
Strange is that your description is exactly same behaviour as my 2)

Upload both your file and I will have a look
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 26, 2014, 03:22:44 am
Strange is that your description is exactly same behaviour as my 2)

Upload both your file and I will have a look

Thanks. Here's both parts of the mod.

(Note that there are cases of addressing to other files, for example the Alien Armoury Expanded and new aliens, but they aren't relevant.)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on June 26, 2014, 04:00:42 am
I tried your files and faced exactly same behaviour as described in previous post (cf. 2) Alloy Ammunition (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2027.msg24510#msg24510))

Description of issue
a) Completing research on Alloy Ammo does open "Auto Cannon AA Ammo" report instrad of "Alloy Ammo" report
b) When opening "ALLOY AMMO" report
   - if click on >>, jump to first HWP entry
   - if go back (also using <<), jump to "Auto Cannon AA Ammo" entry
c) When opening "ALLOY AMMO" report again
   - if click on <<, jump to last Craft weapon "Cannon"
   - if go back (also using >>), jump to "Auto Cannon AA Ammo" entry

The hint I gave you in 2) will fix it

Here is your problem
ufopaedia:
  - id: STR_PISTOL_AA_CLIP
    type_id: 4
    requires:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO
    section: STR_NOT_AVAILABLE
  - id: STR_RIFLE_AA_CLIP
    type_id: 4
    requires:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO
    section: STR_NOT_AVAILABLE
...

And here below the solution
ufopaedia:
  - id: STR_PISTOL_AA_CLIP
    type_id: 4
    requires:
      - STR_PISTOL_AA_CLIP
    section: STR_NOT_AVAILABLE
  - id: STR_RIFLE_AA_CLIP
    type_id: 4
    requires:
      - STR_RIFLE_AA_CLIP
    section: STR_NOT_AVAILABLE
  - id: STR_HC_AA_AMMO
    type_id: 4
    requires:
      - STR_HC_AA_AMMO
    section: STR_NOT_AVAILABLE
  - id: STR_AC_AA_AMMO
    type_id: 4
    requires:
      - STR_AC_AA_AMMO
  - id: STR_SHOTGUN_AA_SHELLS_AP
    type_id: 4
    section: STR_NOT_AVAILABLE
    requires:
      - STR_SHOTGUN_AA_SHELLS_AP
  - id: STR_HMG_AA_CLIP
    type_id: 4
    section: STR_NOT_AVAILABLE
    requires:
      - STR_HMG_AA_CLIP
  - id: STR_SNIPER_RIFLE_AA_CLIP
    type_id: 4
    section: STR_NOT_AVAILABLE
    requires:
      - STR_SNIPER_RIFLE_AA_CLIP
  - id: STR_MAGNUM_AA_DRUM
    type_id: 4
    section: STR_NOT_AVAILABLE
    requires:
      - STR_MAGNUM_AA_DRUM
  - id: STR_SMG_AA_CLIP
    type_id: 4
    section: STR_NOT_AVAILABLE
    requires:
      - STR_SMG_AA_CLIP
  - id: STR_LMG_AA_CLIP
    type_id: 4
    section: STR_NOT_AVAILABLE
    requires:
      - STR_LMG_AA_CLIP
  - id: STR_MINIGUN_AA_CLIP
    type_id: 4
    section: STR_NOT_AVAILABLE
    requires:
      - STR_MINIGUN_AA_CLIP

research:
  - name: STR_PISTOL_AA_CLIP
    cost: 0
    points: 0
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO
  - name: STR_RIFLE_AA_CLIP
    cost: 0
    points: 0
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO
  - name: STR_HC_AA_AMMO
    cost: 0
    points: 0
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO
  - name: STR_AC_AA_AMMO
    cost: 0
    points: 0
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO
  - name: STR_SHOTGUN_AA_SHELLS_AP
    cost: 0
    points: 0
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO
  - name: STR_HMG_AA_CLIP
    cost: 0
    points: 0
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO
  - name: STR_SNIPER_RIFLE_AA_CLIP
    cost: 0
    points: 0
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO
  - name: STR_MAGNUM_AA_DRUM
    cost: 0
    points: 0
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO
  - name: STR_SMG_AA_CLIP
    cost: 0
    points: 0
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO
  - name: STR_LMG_AA_CLIP
    cost: 0
    points: 0
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO
  - name: STR_MINIGUN_AA_CLIP
    cost: 0
    points: 0
    dependencies:
      - STR_ALLOY_AMMO

To test it, I just made following modifications
- Alien Alloys -> cost = 1 ; needItem = false
- Alien Ammo -> cost = 1

And it works now like a charm  :)

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 26, 2014, 05:08:03 am
Goddamnit, it worked!

Thanks a million Aldorn, I'd never thought it worked like this...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on June 26, 2014, 02:20:01 pm
I'm glad to help you sometimes as your contribution on this forum is just enormous  ;)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 27, 2014, 03:41:43 pm
For balance I would suggest that Lasers weapons need the research and use of alien alloys. This would delay their implementation and encourage the use of convential weapons and their mods for longer.

It won't change much, since in this design you get to research Alien Alloys much earlier anyway. Still, your suggestion is reasonable, since Alien Alloys are supposed to have some cool properties. On the other hand, there is a research names Alien Power Systems that can be researched after any sentient alien is interrogated which is needed for almost all alien tech, I guess this covers conduction despite not being directly related to Alien Alloys. (Or perhaps it should have Alien Alloys as a prerequisite?)

Actually I would like to begin a Long War topic. Should I post this under Suggestions or Modding/Experiments.

I think Modding/Experiments would be best.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: SenniTrebor on June 27, 2014, 06:26:54 pm

And finally there's the Psionic Armour which... well, I don't really know what to do with. I don't want it to simply be a Personal Armour with better Psi Strength, because that's kinda dull, and also why not a Psionic Armour based on a Power Suit or a Dragonskin as well? I would like to see something more imaginative, but I haven't found anything yet.


How about a psi shield/ helmet. I don't know about the difficulty of creating helmets, but a belt carried shield might work.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: SenniTrebor on June 27, 2014, 06:45:47 pm

  • Each alien Engineer you interrogate gives you one random tech, using the "get one free" feature in the ruleset (the same that Medic uses). There are a number of techs available to choose, let's say there's 10 of them. These techs are free - you get it right after researching the Engineer.
  • In order to get plasma technology tree, you need five different techs from Engineers. Therefore if you are very lucky, you can have them after interrogating 5 Engineers, but you're probably going to need more until all 5 techs are found. It's the same for fusion weapons, although some techs may be the same as for plasma weapons.
This has a number of advantages:
  • Advanced alien weapons are delayed.
  • You get empty techs, but they're cool.
  • There will be more cool articles in the Ufopedia, covering technical aspects of alien technology.

What do you think?


Each engineer must provide something or its to random. (Unless it were for a prolong war mod.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: SenniTrebor on June 27, 2014, 06:50:06 pm
While you're at it; could you reverse the typical order of weapons development?

In Stock XCOM we go like:

Pistol -> Rifle -> Heavy Weapon -> Craft Weapon -> Base Defense

Which is a bit odd to me. Shouldn't it be reversed; so that:

Base Defense -> Craft Weapon -> Heavy Weapon -> Rifle -> Pistol

To follow the general trend of miniaturization of a new technology?

First, you build a huge 50 ton weapon, then you manage to shrink it down to 500-1000 lbs (craft weapon); then down to 50-60 lbs (heavy weapon), further to 8-10 lbs (rifle), and finally 2-4 lbs (Pistol).

True, but poor for game balance/ enjoyment, unless rifle and pistol were unlocked at the same time.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: SenniTrebor on June 27, 2014, 07:01:04 pm
I propose you an idea

To be unlocked, Alien Containment needs :
- Alien Biology
- Alien Food Researched
- Alien Entertainment Researched
- Alien Reproduction Researched
- Examination Room Researched
- Alien Surgery Researched

To build an Alien Containment :
- Alien Containment Researched
- Some Raw Materials
   - n Alien Food
   - m Alien Entertainment
   - 1 Alien Reproduction (some parts of it are required)
   - 1 Examination Room (some parts of it are required)
   - 1 Alien Surgery (some parts of it are required)
- Money

I propose this for two reasons :
- to postpone alien containment research
- because Alien Food, Alien Entertainment, Alien Reproduction, Examination Room and Alien Surgery are unused, what is a little bit frustrating

(based on your NEW+Mod PDF)

Like this idea! But how about removing alien reproduction. One could use it for making clones of one's own soldiers to be activated if the cloned soldier dies (with the same stats). just a thought from a cretin who doesn't even recognise what language your coding in.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: SenniTrebor on June 27, 2014, 07:58:18 pm
Armour chart         zip
BigDrugPack         gif
diagramms         zip
ExtraVessel_v2 WIP      png
ExtraVessel_WIP         png
ExtraVessel_WIP         zip
Firearms_Compilation_1.1.1      zip
Firearms_Compilation_1.1      zip
Firearms_Compilation_1.2      zip
Firearms_Compilation_1.3      zip
Firearms_Compilation_1.4      zip
FMP_addon_ExtraVessel_v0.9.4   zip
FMP_tech_tree(1).rul
FMP_tech_tree(2).rul
FMP_tech_tree(3).rul
FMP_tech_tree(4).rul
FMP_tech_tree.rul
FMP_tech_tree_WIP_v1.0      zip
Mod_Hell_Secondary_Research.rul
plasma_shotgun_for_sscorch      zip
Skyranger_2         zip
Tanks_Compilation_1.0.1      zip
Tanks_Compilation_1.1.1      zip
Tanks_Compilation_1.1      zip
Tanks_Compilation_1.3      zip
TranquilizerGraphics      zip
UFO Tech Tree WIP modified      png
UFO Tech Tree WIP rewrite v2.1.dia   zip
UFO Tech Tree WIP rewrite v2.1   png
UFO Tech Tree WIP rewrite v2   png
UFO Tech Tree WIP rewrite v2   zip
UFO Tech Tree WIP rewrite      png
UFO Tech Tree WIP rewrite      zip
UFO Tech Tree WIP v3.dia
UFO Tech Tree WIP v3      zip
UFO Tech Tree WIP         zip
Weapon chart         zip

I am assumming that I can ignore all of the struck through entrys.

A summary and a pinned post with latest files only would also be of help.

[/list]
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 28, 2014, 02:10:42 am
Would you please not double-post so much, and especially not n-post? :P

How about a psi shield/ helmet. I don't know about the difficulty of creating helmets, but a belt carried shield might work.

Exactly my idea. It's not possible right now, but... some day, maybe. :P

Each engineer must provide something or its to random. (Unless it were for a prolong war mod.

Oh, but every Engineer provides one thing. Only the order of these things is random.

True, but poor for game balance/ enjoyment, unless rifle and pistol were unlocked at the same time.

Even if they aren't, they will be very close on the tech tree, being essentially the same tech in a slightly different package.

EDIT:

I think I'll delay tougher alien races, or at least decrease their numbers in early months, since fighting big Muton ships with rifles (even with alien alloy ammo) and grenades is suffering. With a number of new races added, this shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: SenniTrebor on June 28, 2014, 03:27:36 am
Would you please not double-post so much, and especially not n-post? :P
Sorry posting as I was reading the whole thread, mea culpa.

Quote
Exactly my idea. It's not possible right now, but... some day, maybe. :P
can't one just add a flagged value to the psi defense calculation?

Quote
Oh, but every Engineer provides one thing. Only the order of these things is random.
Even if they aren't, they will be very close on the tech tree, being essentially the same tech in a slightly different package.

Oh now I get it.
EDIT:

Quote
I think I'll delay tougher alien races, or at least decrease their numbers in early months, since fighting big Muton ships with rifles (even with alien alloy ammo) and grenades is suffering. With a number of new races added, this shouldn't be a problem.
Good idea, at least until more weapons are researched.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 28, 2014, 03:55:39 am
can't one just add a flagged value to the psi defense calculation?

The problem is, stat modification can only be given to armour now; and certainly not to items that can be taken off during battle.

Therefore, one would have to write a code that prevents an item from being removed during battle (with the appropriate flag for the ruleset), and then this code would have to be accepted into the game... Then we could make the item. (Most likely a psi belt, size 4x1.)

Good idea, at least until more weapons are researched.

Actually, I've just done it. They're not exactly earlier, but less likely to be encountered. (Especially Mutons had crazy chances to come up.)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: SenniTrebor on June 28, 2014, 02:29:37 pm
The problem is, stat modification can only be given to armour now; and certainly not to items that can be taken off during battle.

Therefore, one would have to write a code that prevents an item from being removed during battle (with the appropriate flag for the ruleset), and then this code would have to be accepted into the game... Then we could make the item. (Most likely a psi belt, size 4x1.)

Actually, I've just done it. They're not exactly earlier, but less likely to be encountered. (Especially Mutons had crazy chances to come up.)
And you can't modify an existing armour to add a belt?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 28, 2014, 02:47:26 pm
And you can't modify an existing armour to add a belt?

What do you mean "modify an existing armour to add a belt"? What would this accomplish?

The entire point of adding a belt (or a helmet, or any other psi item) is to not have to modify armours. Because you can modify armours, but I don't want to make a second version of every armour, with the only difference being added psi protection. That would be just a bad design.

Therefore I want a new class of item, which could be worn regardless of the item used. A belt is the simplest way to do so, but of course we could also make a completely new slot named "helmet", "mind shield" or whatever.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on June 28, 2014, 02:51:17 pm
you can add armors like
no armor + belt type A
no armor + belt type B
no armor + belt type C
personal armor + belt type A
personal armor + belt type B
personal armor + belt type C
flying armor + belt type A
flying armor + belt type B
flying armor + belt type C
power armor...

then you add the color armor mod (i would love to use that one)
but then you have 4(+4 modded)*3 belt types*8 colors 192 armor types
(only modded armor/color=12 armor ok,.. with 4 extra armor+without color=24 armor types)
it a question of the userinterface
if a armor has a basetype "combat, personal, flying,..." so you see only one item in the sell/producttion list
in the armor-equip screen you can select the basetype
and in the inventory screen before! the attack you would have the option to select a subtype
so personal armor is fixed but you can select belt3+colorGreen
that would be a solution that hopefully avoids huge code changes

a better solution would be of course items that can change stats + inventary slots restrictions to specific itemtypes
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 28, 2014, 03:26:00 pm
Yes, Falko, exactly what I'm thinking. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: SenniTrebor on June 29, 2014, 12:11:23 am
Yes, Falko, exactly what I'm thinking. :)
His first idea was what I had in mind. Various armours+- belt.
Is there a plan to bring all aspects of the The Final Mod Pack into one thread (I'm finding it all over the place) or is it still largely at the developmental stage.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 29, 2014, 03:01:31 am
His first idea was what I had in mind. Various armours+- belt.
Is there a plan to bring all aspects of the The Final Mod Pack into one thread (I'm finding it all over the place) or is it still largely at the developmental stage.

There are numerous threads, but this one is considered the main. At least I think so. :P

I'm currently working on merging everything into one ruleset. This will take a while...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on June 30, 2014, 04:03:36 pm
There are numerous threads, but this one is considered the main. At least I think so. :P

I'm currently working on merging everything into one ruleset. This will take a while...
If you need, I could provide you some help

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 30, 2014, 04:10:28 pm
If you need, I could provide you some help

Once it's released, I would really appreciate French translations... After all it was originally the whole point of the mod. :)

As for now, I think developing a system of work division would be more time-consuming than me finishing the ruleset by myself. I'm pretty close now. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on June 30, 2014, 04:12:50 pm
Once it's released, I would really appreciate French translations... After all it was originally the whole point of the mod. :)

As for now, I think developing a system of work division would be more time-consuming than me finishing the ruleset by myself. I'm pretty close now. :)
Sure I will
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 30, 2014, 05:31:39 pm
Actually, I think I have all strings in one place already. Attached is the file with the strings in all languages that are represented in the mod, though most are incomplete.

I can translate from French, but not to French. :) So if you could fill in the blanks, I'll include them in the ruleset ASAP.

Translators to other languages are welcome too!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Vulgar Monkey on June 30, 2014, 06:26:53 pm
Since we're on the subject of armours, that reminds me of something I keep meaning to ask.
Since we now have stat effects attached, is it possible to have power suits add strength and encumberance, for example?

Always struck me that a Fallout-esque element would make a lot of sense there, and would add extra utility to the top tier armour beyond simple durability. Might make it interesting to add very heavy weapons that can only be used with suit augmentation?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on June 30, 2014, 07:21:56 pm
Since we're on the subject of armours, that reminds me of something I keep meaning to ask.
Since we now have stat effects attached, is it possible to have power suits add strength and encumberance, for example?

Yes, it's easy to do. Armours can modify all stats. Like this (from the Piratez mod):

Code: [Select]
  - type: STR_POWER_SUIT_UC
    stats:
       tu: -15
       reactions: -15

So this particular armour is woefully slow.

Always struck me that a Fallout-esque element would make a lot of sense there, and would add extra utility to the top tier armour beyond simple durability. Might make it interesting to add very heavy weapons that can only be used with suit augmentation?

Yeah, this is planned. At some point. Soon. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on June 30, 2014, 10:25:11 pm
Actually, I think I have all strings in one place already. Attached is the file with the strings in all languages that are represented in the mod, though most are incomplete.

I can translate from French, but not to French. :) So if you could fill in the blanks, I'll include them in the ruleset ASAP.

Translators to other languages are welcome too!

I will do it on thursday or friday, and will consider en-US as reference

I first compared en-GB and en-US

- Lacking in en-GB compared to en-US
      STR_ALIEN_FLYBY: Alien UFO Flyby
      STR_ALIEN_RAID: Alien Surprise Raid
      STR_NATIVEURBAN: Native (Farm + Jungle)
      STR_RAIDERS_EARLY: Special Alien Crew (Early Game)
      STR_RAIDERS_LATE: Special Alien Crew (Late Game)
      STR_RAIDERS_MID: Special Alien Crew (Mid Game)
      STR_RAIDER_SHIP: Raider Ship

- Duplicated in en-GB
      STR_CORPSE_JUMP_ARMOR: Damaged Jump Armour
      STR_REPAIR_JUMP_ARMOR: Jump Armour Repair

To compare, I put en-GB in a first file, en-US in a second file, sorted them both then compared (see attached files)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on June 30, 2014, 10:44:50 pm
or use the modtester :) :
STR_SNIPER_RIFLE', 'STR_SNIPER_RIFLE_UFOPEDIA', 'STR_SNIPER_RIFLE_CLIP defined multiple times in extraStrings en-US
'STR_SNIPER_RIFLE', 'STR_REPAIR_JUMP_ARMOR', 'STR_SNIPER_RIFLE_CLIP', 'STR_CORPSE_JUMP_ARMOR', 'STR_SNIPER_RIFLE_UFOPEDIA' defined multiple times in extraStrings en-GB

STR_HWP_GAUSS_AMMO', 'STR_ALIEN_POWER_SYSTEMS_UFOPEDIA in pl but not in en-US
STR_HWP_GAUSS_SHELLS in fr but not in en-GB,
STR_ALIEN_POWER_SYSTEMS_UFOPEDIA in pl but not in en-GB
'STR_RAIDERS_LATE', 'STR_RAIDERS_MID', 'STR_HWP_GAUSS_SHELLS', 'STR_RAIDERS_EARLY', 'STR_ALIEN_RAID', 'STR_ALIEN_FLYBY', 'STR_NATIVEURBAN', 'STR_RAIDER_SHIP' in en-US but not in en-GB

STR_POWER_SYSTEMS_UFOPEDIA', 'STR_MACHINE_PISTOL_UFOPEDIA', 'STR_MACHINE_PISTOL', 'STR_MACHINE_PISTOL_CLIP'], ' in en-GB but not in pl
STR_HWP_GAUSS_SHELLS in fr but not in pl
STR_POWER_SYSTEMS_UFOPEDIA', 'STR_RAIDERS_LATE', 'STR_RAIDERS_MID', 'STR_MACHINE_PISTOL_UFOPEDIA', 'STR_HWP_GAUSS_SHELLS', 'STR_RAIDERS_EARLY', 'STR_ALIEN_RAID', 'STR_MACHINE_PISTOL_CLIP', 'STR_ALIEN_FLYBY', 'STR_NATIVEURBAN', 'STR_RAIDER_SHIP', 'STR_MACHINE_PISTOL' in en-Us but not in pl


es/de/sk/ru/cz/it many missing stgrings
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 01, 2014, 02:34:31 am
Yeah thanks, I know it needs cleaning up... I'll do that myself, but I can't translate it :)

EDIT:
Updated the file, since there were some issues with coding.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 02, 2014, 01:15:38 am
Since I can't edit the first post, I'm putting it here:

THE FIRST VERSION OF THE FINAL MOD PACK IS RELEASED!


And it can be downloaded from here: https://www.openxcom.com/mod/final-mod-pack

It's not perfect yet, but it's fully functional and works as intended.

I don't have much else to say, since everything is in the readme. Have fun playing! :D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: phobos2077 on July 02, 2014, 08:44:59 am
I'm a bit skeptical about this whole "final mod pack" idea. The name suggests YOUR vision of good balance and good mods are the only true. I always dislike such arrogance...
Maybe you should rename it to "Solar's mod compilation" or something like that. I plan to make my own mod compilation in future (when I get down to playing the game again), but with only a portion of mods included and rebalanced (to improve variety to a certain extent, for example - exclude mods that add overpowered items in the game that, when balanced, make no sense anymore; also, I don't like having 10 weapons of exactly same stats with different icons).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: davide on July 02, 2014, 01:50:54 pm
In my opinion,
it is a welcome feature have a big mods that was well checked to mod compatibility.
and its test eventualy will produce warning on incompatibility

As all mods, someone could remarks what he does not like or could changes as he prefer.

For the name ... its a name ...

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: SenniTrebor on July 02, 2014, 05:02:11 pm
Since I can't edit the first post, I'm putting it here:

THE FIRST VERSION OF THE FINAL MOD PACK IS RELEASED!


And it can be downloaded from here: https://www.openxcom.com/mod/final-mod-pack (https://www.openxcom.com/mod/final-mod-pack)

It's not perfect yet, but it's fully functional and works as intended.

I don't have much else to say, since everything is in the readme. Have fun playing! :D
Does this need/expect the latest nightly?
Also can't seem to find it in the mod options. But the I just added it to my previous mod game folder. Will try reinstalling vanilla and the the FMP.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: GrandSirThebus on July 02, 2014, 11:04:41 pm
I really wanted to use this mod pack, but when i installed it every time i went to run openxcom it would say "openxcom has stopped working". this makes me sad.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: wsmithjr on July 03, 2014, 02:26:01 am
I really wanted to use this mod pack, but when i installed it every time i went to run openxcom it would say "openxcom has stopped working". this makes me sad.

Bummer.  I did install the nightly 07_01_0845 and am not having any problems like you describe.  Don't know if that has anything to do with it; I didn't try it with 1.0.  I also added the Commendations mod 0621 without any problems (thus far).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: PegasusOrgans on July 03, 2014, 09:26:47 am
Will the Mass Accelerator Mod be added? I know there is some issues with the graphics not being up to the standard but it is a new, interesting tier that can be justified with a powered up tier of aliens.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Longshanks on July 03, 2014, 09:30:24 am
So, I have not read through this entire post. Is the research progression tree in the op still accurate for the fmp? If not can someone direct me to the latest version of it? I started a playthrough yesterday and would like to confirm that research topics are being unlocked properly.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 03, 2014, 05:07:38 pm
So, I have not read through this entire post. Is the research progression tree in the op still accurate for the fmp? If not can someone direct me to the latest version of it? I started a playthrough yesterday and would like to confirm that research topics are being unlocked properly.

Hi Longshanks,

Many thanks for your offer. The truth is, there's way too many items to really answer it here, but the general ideology of the mod is as following (marked as spoiler for those who'd prefer to discovered it themselves):

At first, you can only research the Motion Scanner. Once you have your first UFO remains, you can examine Alloy Alloys and then research Personal Armour and Alloy Ammo, but you won't get anywhere with plasma and the like. You should start with alien autopsy, which will lead you to Alien Containment and therefore living aliens. The first interrogation will unlock Alien Power Systems, which will give you the option to dissect alien tech like UFO Power Source. Later, further interrogations and dissections will unlock other tech, including building blocks for lasers, gauss rifles and plasmas.

I would also like to know if you suffer from the Medipack crash bug. This is a strange issue that some people have, and I need more info. (As I understand, having a Medipack in your inventory crashes the game on battle end.)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on July 03, 2014, 05:21:07 pm
i got the crash if i put the medipack in my hand and turn (walking straight ahead works fine - so i can heal others if they are standing norteast of my doctor - perhaps its a feng shui thing :) )
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 03, 2014, 06:06:00 pm
i got the crash if i put the medipack in my hand and turn (walking straight ahead works fine - so i can heal others if they are standing norteast of my doctor - perhaps its a feng shui thing :) )

Now I think it's because the Medipack handob has only 1 gif file. Should I define its dimensions somehow? Falko, you please help... ;)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on July 03, 2014, 06:32:43 pm
from original rul file:
Code: [Select]
extraSprites:
  - type: BIGOBS.PCK
    files:
      102000: Resources/Medipack/BigMedipack.gif
  - type: FLOOROB.PCK
    files:
      102001: Resources/Medipack/FloorMedipack.gif
  - type: HANDOB.PCK
    files:
      102002: Resources/Medipack/MedipackH.gif
    width: 256
    height: 40
    subX: 32
    subY: 40
yes they need the width/sub stuff but the id are too high in original mod
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 03, 2014, 07:07:19 pm
OK, I fixed that pesky problem with the Medipack. The latest version is currently being uploaded to the mod site.

Warning: Because of the latest change in the night builds from CYDONIA_DEP to COMMANDER_PLUS, I had to change the ruleset accordingly. Make sure you have version openxcom_git_master_2014_07_03_0820 or later installed, or you may be unable to finish the game! Get it from https://openxcom.org/git-builds/.

EDIT: Immediately after that I made 0.5.2, which adds one very useful item. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on July 03, 2014, 10:32:34 pm
Here's another little problem I've run into:
Code: [Select]
  - type: STR_PISTOL_AA_CLIP
    size: 0.1
    costSell: 104
    weight: 3
    bigSprite: 84
    floorSprite: 4
    hitSound: 22
    hitAnimation: 26
    power: 33
    damageType: 1
    clipSize: 18
    battleType: 2
    armor: 12
    attraction: 1
    listOrder: 2205

listOrder: 2205 groups this ammo with the rifle ammo, which looks odd. Changing it to 2005 works fine.

Oh, and would it be possible to maintain a modpack for the milestone version too? I'm not exactly eager to install nightlies...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on July 03, 2014, 10:42:57 pm
I'm a bit skeptical about this whole "final mod pack" idea. The name suggests YOUR vision of good balance and good mods are the only true. I always dislike such arrogance...
Maybe you should rename it to "Solar's mod compilation" or something like that. I plan to make my own mod compilation in future (when I get down to playing the game again), but with only a portion of mods included and rebalanced (to improve variety to a certain extent, for example - exclude mods that add overpowered items in the game that, when balanced, make no sense anymore; also, I don't like having 10 weapons of exactly same stats with different icons).
Hey mate, who is the more arrogant :
- the one who is one of the biggest contributors on this forum (more than 1200 posts whose 50%+ are plenty of sense) and try to make a compilation for others to play with
- or the other one who comes from nowhere and decides this initiative was just arrogance
I think you should better not have used such a word  ;)

Considering this was just an error from your side, about your opinion, your are not wrong : this "Final Mod Pack" is not the only way to make a compilation, you are working on your own, as I do and some others

I think a better way would have been to just make your suggestion of renaming, using your arguments that are not so bad but without the roughness of you first post, and perhaps would you have had a chance to convince his owner(s)

or use the modtester :) :

Hi Falko
You seem to have made a great job here

I tried this (15-20 min) but I found there was to many displayed errors

Do you think you could add some "button" to select/unselect all options, in order to be able to check error types one by one ?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on July 03, 2014, 10:57:30 pm
Do you think you could add some "button" to select/unselect all options, in order to be able to check error types one by one ?
there is if you click on "show errorselection"
Edit: sorry misread - will think about it
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 03, 2014, 10:59:24 pm
listOrder: 2205 groups this ammo with the rifle ammo, which looks odd. Changing it to 2005 works fine.

Yes, thank you. I fixed this typo.
ListOrders are in a bit of a beta state now, some are missing etc., so there will be more mistakes like this. The mod is fully functional, but still unpolished. :)

Oh, and would it be possible to maintain a modpack for the milestone version too? I'm not exactly eager to install nightlies...

I would love to, but sadly I would have to clone myself for this, since the changes are complex and numerous and would have to actually be done twice. Plus, the features that require the nightly builds really allow for a nicer game (primarily, better access to alien knowledge, which is essential here).

Nevertheless, I do not expect you to update the game every day, only when something critical is changed. This happened today and is unlikely to happen again soon... Unless it does, since our devs are on the roll. :)

I'm a bit skeptical about this whole "final mod pack" idea. The name suggests YOUR vision of good balance and good mods are the only true. I always dislike such arrogance...

Maybe you should rename it to "Solar's mod compilation" or something like that.

Sorry about not addressing this earlier, I somehow missed your post, honestly. And I should address this properly.

The truth is, I agree that it sounds arrogant. The story is, it was started by Human Ktulu under the name "French Mod Pack", and then it evolved into this compilation, so he renamed it "Final Mod Pack" to preserve the acronym. Yeah, I don't really like it either, but that's the trademark and we can't do much about it - or at least I can't, because it's simply not just my work. (And for this reason it can't be "Solar's Mod Pack" either, even though I made 95% of it.)

Aldorn, thanks for defending me, but I have to admit Phobos is right... Still, it's just a name, so let's roll with it for now.

I plan to make my own mod compilation in future (when I get down to playing the game again), but with only a portion of mods included and rebalanced (to improve variety to a certain extent, for example - exclude mods that add overpowered items in the game that, when balanced, make no sense anymore; also, I don't like having 10 weapons of exactly same stats with different icons).

Then I wish you success, since my own priorities are exactly the same! I agree that the OpenXCom community is plagued with overpowered items, so I took great care to rebalance all of them and make sure they are different from each other and not relevant to tactics. Otherwise there would be way more weapons. :)

Finally, there's a new version 0.5.3 that fixes and adds some minor stuff - enjoy. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Gordonmull on July 05, 2014, 03:11:41 am
Hello, my first post here. A long time XCom fan since the 90s and who's week was made by the discovery of OpenXCom 1.0 AND a mega mod. I cant thank those who have done this enough. The no more 80 item limit has had me partying for days! And now the megamod!

I do have a suggestion though, I've just played an MiB mission and it took severe suspension of belief that MiBs could have possession of a UFO. It might be better to have the MiBs "meeting" the aliens and XCom rumbles the party in a mixed crew type mission, much more believable than MiBs flying around in small scouts.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 05, 2014, 01:20:01 pm
Hello, my first post here. A long time XCom fan since the 90s and who's week was made by the discovery of OpenXCom 1.0 AND a mega mod. I cant thank those who have done this enough. The no more 80 item limit has had me partying for days! And now the megamod!

I do have a suggestion though, I've just played an MiB mission and it took severe suspension of belief that MiBs could have possession of a UFO. It might be better to have the MiBs "meeting" the aliens and XCom rumbles the party in a mixed crew type mission, much more believable than MiBs flying around in small scouts.

Thanks for the kind words!

As for the MiB mod, it's true that the engine limitations forced certain simplifications. Nevertheless, I decided to include this work, as it adds a lot of fun to the game and seemed worth it to me.

Any suggestions regarding MiB can be posted on https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2180.0 which is the MiB's thread.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on July 09, 2014, 01:20:13 am
Found another typo, this one caused a program crash when I tried to browse the ufopaedia:

Code: [Select]
  - type: STR_TANK_GAUSS
    size: 6
    costSell: 594000
    transferTime: 96
    weight: 1
    bigSprite: 92
    floorSprite: 0
    handSprite: 0
    bulletSprite: 8
    fireSound: 65
    compatibleAmmo:
      - STR_HWP_GAUSS_AMMOAMMO

Anyone knows whether this should be added into the bugtracker?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: myk002 on July 09, 2014, 01:35:40 am
I'd say add it to the bugtracker: even bad configuration should not be able to crash the game
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on July 09, 2014, 01:45:55 am
i prefer crashes (with a bit more information than now)
without crashes the modder do not fix errors and the errors add up in the mod
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: SupSuper on July 09, 2014, 04:15:52 am
I'd say add it to the bugtracker: even bad configuration should not be able to crash the game
Any bad configuration will crash the game.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 09, 2014, 03:08:51 pm
Sorry about the typo, I'll release a new version soon.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on July 09, 2014, 03:28:11 pm
Sorry about the typo, I'll release a new version soon.
No problem, I've fixed my copy myself, I'm only posting it here so you can fix it in the next release.

Come to think of it... Your mod is primarily a compilation, so is anybody fixing the original mods if they contain an error too?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 09, 2014, 03:31:36 pm
No problem, I've fixed my copy myself, I'm only posting it here so you can fix it in the next release.

Come to think of it... Your mod is primarily a compilation, so is anybody fixing the original mods if they contain an error too?


I can't guarantee that, I just don't know. :) But I'll try to report stuff to the creators.

Still, this particular tank is from my own mod. And it's fine there, the error was created on import.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on July 09, 2014, 06:03:05 pm
I am testing french translation before upload

I found an error in US/EN files (release 0.5.3) :
- Lines 15212 & 15554 : STR_THUNDERSTORM_INTERCEPTOR: Thundestorm Interceptor => Thunderstorm Interceptor

EDIT : french translation attached (based on release 0.5.3)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 09, 2014, 10:02:15 pm
Cool, thanks! I've included this in the latest version.

Apart from fixes, I experimentally made laser and gauss weapons easier to research, since they were taking ages to discover.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: PegasusOrgans on July 09, 2014, 10:49:31 pm
Any other new mods being considered for addition? Maybe a list of possible mods not added yet, or a poll to see which mods people want to see added most?

Also, certain mods people might consider "over the top" or not "graphically appealing" like "Mass Accelerator Technology" might be made optional, with a
note that explains why it might not be in ppls best interest to install.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 10, 2014, 05:17:13 pm
Any other new mods being considered for addition? Maybe a list of possible mods not added yet, or a poll to see which mods people want to see added most?

Sure, I'm considering new possibilities all the time. Can't say much at this point, since I'm currently polishing what is already there.

As for the list, well, there is one: of the mods included. Making a list of all OpenXCom mods in the world would be difficult, and futile. If it's not on the list, it's not included!

Also, certain mods people might consider "over the top" or not "graphically appealing" like "Mass Accelerator Technology" might be made optional, with a
note that explains why it might not be in ppls best interest to install.

There's no way to make a feature optional - it it's there, it's there. Well, if it's X-Com equipment, you don't have to sue it. :) But I'm trying to keep nearly everyone happy.

And if the mod is not included in the pack, it is indeed "optional" - you can run it separately along the FMP.

EDIT:

An update! Some fixes, some improvements and some upgrades. Download it from the usual place.

EDIT 2:

Oops, two errors. Download 0.5.4b, or you'll never research Medikit or Lasers/Gauss.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 11, 2014, 12:13:32 am
Any other new mods being considered for addition? Maybe a list of possible mods not added yet, or a poll to see which mods people want to see added most?

Sure, I'm considering new possibilities all the time. Can't say much at this point, since I'm currently polishing what is already there.

As for the list, well, there is one: of the mods included. Making a list of all OpenXCom mods in the world would be difficult, and futile. If it's not on the list, it's not included!

Also, certain mods people might consider "over the top" or not "graphically appealing" like "Mass Accelerator Technology" might be made optional, with a
note that explains why it might not be in ppls best interest to install.

There's no way to make a feature optional - it it's there, it's there. Well, if it's X-Com equipment, you don't have to sue it. :) But I'm trying to keep nearly everyone happy.

And if the mod is not included in the pack, it is indeed "optional" - you can run it separately along the FMP.

EDIT:

An update! Some fixes, some improvements and some upgrades. Download it from the usual place.

EDIT 2:

Oops, two errors. Download 0.5.4b, or you'll never research Medikit or Lasers/Gauss.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on July 11, 2014, 12:42:53 pm
you can include:
*improved nations
*Scout armour
*hq sounds
*debriefing_soldier_stats

and thx for the mod ;D ;D ;D

i update to last version and i dont see mekit and laser weapons
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 11, 2014, 04:12:14 pm
Thanks for the input, Arr!
Well, HQ Sounds are probably nice, I haven't checked them out yet. I need to do it ASAP.
Improved Nations are a bit incomplete, so I don't want to add them now; what bothers me the most is lack of national borders. If they are done, I'll probably add them too. (But this mod is easy to run along the FMP, so for now you can just enable both.)
Honestly I don't know what the Scout Armour is, but I haven't started working on the armours in general yet. I have some notes and ideas though. :)
And what's Debriefing_soldier_stats? :o
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on July 11, 2014, 04:32:34 pm
Sorry: is this https://www.openxcom.com/mod/soldier-diaries-stat-tracking

But in this momment i don see the research of laser weapons and medickit
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 11, 2014, 04:50:12 pm
Sorry: is this https://www.openxcom.com/mod/soldier-diaries-stat-tracking

Ah. No no no, this is a great thing but unfinished, requires exe substitution, prevents nightly updates and I don't want to force on the players something that I don't use myself because of all the above. :) Hopefully it gets integrated into the game soon, I can't wait myself.

But in this momment i don see the research of laser weapons and medickit

Yes. And? :D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on July 11, 2014, 04:53:03 pm
This researchs normally are avalible at the start of the game?? I see the bug log of the laster version. If idont see this research in my game. I have a bug game??? Sorry for my english. Im spanish
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on July 11, 2014, 04:59:44 pm
this mod changes the research tree - one aim is to make a longer game
so laser/medikit are not available at the start
if you do not want that at the moment you can only deactivate the mod
Edit:
but you can buy shiny new weapons and a basic medikit in the store
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on July 11, 2014, 05:02:22 pm
Ok, i understand. No problem. Great mod and 1 more time thx
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on July 11, 2014, 05:22:32 pm
Honestly I don't know what the Scout Armour is, but I haven't started working on the armours in general yet. I have some notes and ideas though. :)

My own attempt at creating an OXC mod. Not even a day old, so don't be surprised you're not aware of it. Myself, I'd wait and see what people think before including it into a compilation mod. I'm glad arrakis69ct likes it but I'd wait for more opinions.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 11, 2014, 05:35:37 pm
My own attempt at creating an OXC mod. Not even a day old, so don't be surprised you're not aware of it. Myself, I'd wait and see what people think before including it into a compilation mod. I'm glad arrakis69ct likes it but I'd wait for more opinions.

Yes, thanks, I've seen it in the meantime. Well, I do have something similar in mind, but working on armours should be done in a complex manner; one cannot simply take them one at a time and just add to the game, they should form a coherent system. One of the basic guidelines for this modpack is not changing vanilla items, but otherwise it should all fall together. Therefore, I will naturally consider any good armour mod, but they'll likely be subject to adjustments.

You know, let me attach the armour summary file. If anyone's interested, it contains basic info. See this post: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2159.msg26485#msg26485
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: the_third_curry on July 11, 2014, 06:55:51 pm
I've seen the armor list and it's shaping up to be very interesting. I think it's interesting to have multiple armor paths, instead of the original game where there's a very linear progression through 3 types.

Personally, I think the best way to balance an accuracy/reaction enhancing armor (which I can see you're attempting according to the armor spreadsheet) would be to have it reduce stamina and strength. In principle, the line of armor works by secreting an adrenaline-like substance which stimulates the control and reaction of muscles, but causes exhaustion to set in quickly.

Maybe something like this:

Armor 1 (non-flying):
Front: 65
Side: 55
Rear: 50
Under: 50

Stamina: -20
Bravery: 15
Reaction: 15
Accuracy: 15
Strength: -10

Armor 2 (flying):
Front: 80
Side: 70
Rear: 60
Under: 60

Stamina: -30
Health: -5 (would this reduce the maximum health or would it be applied as if the soldier was injured?)
Bravery: 25
Reaction: 25
Accuracy: 25
Strength: -20
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 11, 2014, 07:06:11 pm
Thanks. I'll certainly consider this, though the main issue is when the armour would exactly appear in the game, and therefore what are its competitors (Personal Armor, or Power Suit?).

I'm not that enthusiastic about stat enhancement through biochemical agents though. The reason is the same as for enhancing psionics: this is not related to what you're wearing, so you could just as well get high on a berzerker drug and wear a Power Suit. That's why I wanted to stick to purely engineering-related reasons for enhancing Accuracy and Reactions, and just handwave it somehow saying it wouldn't be possible of a heavy armour because of butts... uh, I mean, because of a sensor array that is integrated into the suit and doesn't allow for heavy plating.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on July 11, 2014, 07:44:52 pm
Well, I do have something similar in mind, but working on armours should be done in a complex manner; one cannot simply take them one at a time and just add to the game, they should form a coherent system. One of the basic guidelines for this modpack is not changing vanilla items, but otherwise it should all fall together. Therefore, I will naturally consider any good armour mod, but they'll likely be subject to adjustments.

I'm not sure whether you're talking about armor mods in general or your own compilation, so I'll take the bait, assume the former and argue. Because I do believe that many standalone mods do have their merit and many can work together or be used as a component in further mods }even if in modified form).

Many mods are created simply to add options, to let players choose something better suited to their play style. Let me display a little arrogance and use my own mod as an example. I've created armor that is less armoured than a Power Suit, becomes available *after* you've already researched the Power Suit, costs about as much as a Power Suit (elerium cost is the same as for vanilla Power Suit) and offers a modest TU boost. Nothing game-breaking, it fills the armor-rating gap between Personal Armor and Power Suit and offers a mild bonus to make it more appealing to players less concerned about soldiers' safety.

I'd say that makes it coherent with the vanilla game and compatible with most mods that don't make any big changes to it, regardless of it being a standalone mod. And the same goes for many other standalone mods - they fill gaps in the vanilla game or offer alternatives that are not overpowered but different.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 11, 2014, 08:03:44 pm
Ah, I meant making a compilation of armours, like this one. :) I wasn't referring to making separate mods at all; in fact, I actually made one (https://www.openxcom.com/mod/jump-armour).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: the_third_curry on July 11, 2014, 08:09:43 pm
Thanks. I'll certainly consider this, though the main issue is when the armour would exactly appear in the game, and therefore what are its competitors (Personal Armor, or Power Suit?).

I'm not that enthusiastic about stat enhancement through biochemical agents though. The reason is the same as for enhancing psionics: this is not related to what you're wearing, so you could just as well get high on a berzerker drug and wear a Power Suit. That's why I wanted to stick to purely engineering-related reasons for enhancing Accuracy and Reactions, and just handwave it somehow saying it wouldn't be possible of a heavy armour because of butts... uh, I mean, because of a sensor array that is integrated into the suit and doesn't allow for heavy plating.

For biochemical agents, I suppose you could handwave it as the chemicals have to be slowly and continuously administered by the suit's mechanisms as large doses would be overly hazardous.

But to stick with engineering reasons, the suits could be called the Electric Suit (the first one) and Jolt Suit (the second one.) They function by stimulating muscles using small (non-harmfull) doses of electricity that keep soldiers on edge, which leads to exhaustion after a while. Because of the accelerated exhaustion, it is not recommended that soldiers with the suit carry a heavy equipment load.

As for where they fit in, I think the Jolt Suit would make a nice compliment for the Advanced Synthsuit. Their armor values are similar (both are good but not strong enough to withstand the stronger weapons with any consistency), but they serve opposite purposes, one aiding sniper style soldiers and the other one aiding scouts. The Electric Suit could compliment the basic synthsuit if I tone down the armor.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 11, 2014, 08:31:29 pm
For biochemical agents, I suppose you could handwave it as the chemicals have to be slowly and continuously administered by the suit's mechanisms as large doses would be overly hazardous.

Yes, but the same can be implemented in any other armour.

But to stick with engineering reasons, the suits could be called the Electric Suit (the first one) and Jolt Suit (the second one.) They function by stimulating muscles using small (non-harmfull) doses of electricity that keep soldiers on edge, which leads to exhaustion after a while. Because of the accelerated exhaustion, it is not recommended that soldiers with the suit carry a heavy equipment load.

Hmm, maybe... It leads to a possible TU bonus coupled with a Strength penalty. I'll add it to possible concepts. :)

As for where they fit in, I think the Jolt Suit would make a nice compliment for the Advanced Synthsuit. Their armor values are similar (both are good but not strong enough to withstand the stronger weapons with any consistency), but they serve opposite purposes, one aiding sniper style soldiers and the other one aiding scouts. The Electric Suit could compliment the basic synthsuit if I tone down the armor.

Maybe so. I'll think of it one step at a time, unless I think of/someone proposes something ground-breaking, which would pave the way to a total change of paradigm. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: the_third_curry on July 11, 2014, 09:59:42 pm
Here's an idea for a psionic armor type that I don't think breaks the suspension of disbelief too severely (though feel free to disagree with that assertion.) The idea is basically this - embeded within their robes, ethereals have a small network of devices  that work to further enhance the species' strong psionic and telepathic mental abilities (basically their own version of the psi-amp, except that it enhances a natural ability for the ethereals instead of developing a new power like the psi-amp does for X-com.) These devices cease functioning when an ethereal loses consciousness or dies. However, X-com engineers have developed a method to create a similar "robe" for X-com agents by salvaging parts from the robes of ethereal corpses and augmenting them with psi-amp technology.

Robe of the Ethereal

Requires:
10 Ethereal corpses
1 psi-amp

Front: 40
Side: 35
Rear: 25
Under: 20

Bravery: 10
Reaction: 15
Psionic Strength: 20
Psionic Skill: 15

Robe of the Ethereal Elite

Requires:
25 ethereal corpses
2 psi-amps

Front: 55
Side: 50
Rear: 45
Under: 40

Bravery: 20
Reaction: 20
Psionic Strength: 35
Psionic Skill: 25

Does anyone think this has potential, or is it just a bit goofy?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Unknown Hero on July 11, 2014, 10:27:52 pm
@ the_third_curry

Quote
Does anyone think this has potential, or is it just a bit goofy?

I have not read the whole thread,  :o  but, yes this has great potential!
And it can always be tweaked.  :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 11, 2014, 10:44:42 pm
It is a bit goofy, yes, but fun enough to at least be considered (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFunny). :D It's way better than many such ideas, which are both goofy AND dead serious (I mean, middle school dead serious). I sort of like it.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on July 12, 2014, 01:06:26 am
Here's an idea for a psionic armor type that I don't think breaks the suspension of disbelief too severely (though feel free to disagree with that assertion.) The idea is basically this - embeded within their robes, ethereals have a small network of devices  that work to further enhance the species' strong psionic and telepathic mental abilities (basically their own version of the psi-amp, except that it enhances a natural ability for the ethereals instead of developing a new power like the psi-amp does for X-com.) These devices cease functioning when an ethereal loses consciousness or dies. However, X-com engineers have developed a method to create a similar "robe" for X-com agents by salvaging parts from the robes of ethereal corpses and augmenting them with psi-amp technology.

Robe of the Ethereal
[snip]

Does anyone think this has potential, or is it just a bit goofy?

I would say that it is a solution in search of a problem. Armor 40 is, by the time you can spare 10 ethereal corpses, a bit pointless. Sure, a psionic often stays in your craft, so he doesn't need armor, but then he won't need that +10 Reaction either. And the question remains, why not wear at least personal armor under that robe? It is not like the armor disrupts psionic powers, is it?

Why while I do find the idea of using remains of ethereals as a basis for psi-boosting tech sensible, this specific armor seems too impractical to me.

And not to be accused of only criticizing, here's my idea for a psi-modifying armor:

Tinfoil Field Suit

Utilizing the Power Suit technology, the Mind Shield technology and a few more advances, this Power Suit variant is designed to keep those of our soldiers who were born with weak psi defences combat-viable. The downsides are lower armor protection and the tinfoil field slightly disrupting the wearer's neural pathways.

Requires:
Power Suit technology, Mind Shield technology, Tinfoil Field Suit technology
7 Elerium, 10 Alien Alloys

Front: 95
Side: 75
Rear: 65
Under: 60

Reactions: -5
Firing: -5
Psionic Strength: +50
Psionic skill: -75

Weight: 12

This would be armor that would let you field some of your old veterans who were not lucky enough to have a high psi score without fear that they will wipe out your own squad. They will become a little weaker, a little more vulnerable, but still better than rookies. And it would be up to the player to balance training psi-strong rookies and improving his/her old vets. Oh, and the logic behind the psi-skill penalty is that if you want to block all incoming psi signals you'll have problems with outgoing signals too.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 12, 2014, 03:02:09 am
Okay, I admit I do not understand, like, at all why everybody wants psi armours. OK, Ethereal robes are a fun idea, but why 80% of suggestions are related to psi?

Come on people, psionics is strong enough as they are now, there's no need to make your psions even more badass. On the other hand, if you think they're too dangerous or annoying when used against you, there's always the option of turning it off. Simple as that. Making specific armours to change it in either direction adds nothing to the game in itself and that's it.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on July 12, 2014, 03:31:41 am
Well, I wouldn't have proposed one if it wasn't to show a design I'd consider more sensible and yes, I do think that psi-amp is more than a little overpowered. But I do understand the perceived need for psi armor.

Early game, people hate unpredictable and sometimes devastating psi attacks. There's little you can do to protect yourself and if you're unlucky, the first time you capture a live psionic is when you meet ethereals. Not a good time to begin researching psi-labs, then building them, then training your soldiers... Psi armor would help, right?

Mid game, you tend to discover that you can retire four out of five of your precious veterans, because their psi strength is too low and there's no way of improving it. All the effort you've put into keeping them alive was for naught, because you know that sending them to Cydonia would be suicidal. But if you could improve their psi defence...

So I'd say that most people are not asking for more badass psions. They're trying to justify creating armor that would make their precious soldiers more resistant to some of the most devastating attacks in the game.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: the_third_curry on July 12, 2014, 03:37:58 am
Okay, I admit I do not understand, like, at all why everybody wants psi armours. OK, Ethereal robes are a fun idea, but why 80% of suggestions are related to psi?

I can't speak for others, but I definitely don't care about psionic skill being higher, I just threw that in there with the ethereal robe because it seemed consistent with the idea. Psionics are brokenly powerful for ethereals before you get psi-labs, and presumably that's the reason why so many people are requesting armor to neutralize it (that and all the other major ideas for armor seem to be covered.) However, once you start getting very good psi soldiers, they become broken for the human player. To me, flat out turning psionics off just feels a bit cheap and robs the ethereals of their primary trait.

Personally, I think the best way to balance psionics would be to make mind control based on line-of-sight, but keep panic as it is, and then cap psionic skill at maybe 60 or 70 for X-com soldiers. Psionics would still be useful, but it would greatly cut back on the mind control spamming on both sides.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: HWPgojira45 on July 12, 2014, 11:49:23 am
Seeming a little noobish and everything (As I kinda am) to both XCOM and OpenXcom...

I was wondering if there was a mod with a tracked plasma tank, instead of a hover plasma tank. It's just something I was thinking of a while back. Are there any in this mod, or any place where I can find one? I take it this mod pack would have something of the sort.

(If this isn't the place to ask this, please direct me to a proper location  :))
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Nattfarinn on July 12, 2014, 03:09:39 pm
Okay, I admit I do not understand, like, at all why everybody wants psi armours. OK, Ethereal robes are a fun idea, but why 80% of suggestions are related to psi?

Come on people, psionics is strong enough as they are now, there's no need to make your psions even more badass. On the other hand, if you think they're too dangerous or annoying when used against you, there's always the option of turning it off. Simple as that. Making specific armours to change it in either direction adds nothing to the game in itself and that's it.

One could say that working on new armour types to mitigate incoming damage is pointless because you can always lower enemy damage instead.

I do partially agree, that nullifying hostile psi is close to turning it off, but keep in mind mods are often intended to be used in "bundles". Such armour could have much more sense when combined with mod that changes psi powers. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 12, 2014, 05:05:49 pm
I would like to assure everyone that I'm not so biased against psi armours that I wouldn't consider it. I value all your input, and also I wouldn't say that you want more powerful X-Com psionics - I was referring to the general populace, not you gentlemen. Frankly, I don't know what to so with this yet, but naturally I'll keep thinking.

One could say that working on new armour types to mitigate incoming damage is pointless because you can always lower enemy damage instead.

True, but OpenXCom is a tactical game, with shoot-outs being its core idea, and being a complex system. The psi system is pretty crude, there's not much you can do with it, because there are so few elements in it. That's why making it more fun by adding more stuff is extra hard. (That's why I'm playing with line of sight only psi myself, because it makes the game more interesting IMHO, but that's my private opinion and shouldn't have any impact on the FMP.)

I was wondering if there was a mod with a tracked plasma tank, instead of a hover plasma tank. It's just something I was thinking of a while back. Are there any in this mod, or any place where I can find one? I take it this mod pack would have something of the sort.

Welcome to the forums! And yes, there's a track plasma tank inside. :D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: HWPgojira45 on July 13, 2014, 11:13:17 pm
Tried the mod pack out for the first time last night, I was loving it. It was not buggy as I thought it would be and everything was going smoothly. Still trying to figure out how to get laser weapons though  :P


But that was until I got to my first Terror Mission.


I noticed everything was slower. My squad, the aliens, the civilians, even the bullets. I wondered what was going on, but my first thought was that my settings were a little messed. After a thorough investigation, this was not the case. Instead, the height of the map was three units taller than it should be. That means that there were three unused floors below the map, and there were the other four height units that applied to the map. This made the map 7 units high in total.


On my next mission, and the mission beforehand, I did not encounter this.


I had only the FMP on at the time.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 13, 2014, 11:26:17 pm
Thanks for the feedback, glad it's mostly okay. :)

Yes, the terror missions are indeed 10 tiles tall. It is so to allow for Luke83's city terrain, which has underground segments and some tall buildings, and therefore is 10 layers tall instead of 4. Only some city missions use this terrain, but the height setting is for all instances of a given mission, so I had to either make all terrors 10 high or exclude Luke's mod, and I really wanted it in.

I don't think much can be done here. But if this is really problematic, you can open the ruleset and search for this fragment (currently row 3642):

Code: [Select]
  - type: STR_TERROR_MISSION
    width: 50
    length: 50
    height: 10
    civilians: 18

And change height from 10 to 4.

However, if you do get Luke's terrain (which happens about 1 per 6 cases), you'll probably get a crash, because it won't fit in the game space.

Sorry I can't be more helpful, but compromises must be made.

Oh, and there's an update coming tonight or tomorrow. there'll be some new stuff, but mostly rebalancing and tech tree tweaking. For example, lasers will be more available, because I really made them a little too hard to reach. :)

EDIT:
Version 0.5.5 is online. I'm not really sure about this release, since some YAML validators choke on the ruleset (while others say it's okay), but I can just as well look for any errors when it's already distributed. Just be careful, there may be dragons.
As always, get it here: https://www.openxcom.com/mod/final-mod-pack

This release contains the following changes:
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on July 13, 2014, 11:56:53 pm
Lasers difficult?? With all the new wepons i dont need lasers XD
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: HWPgojira45 on July 14, 2014, 01:41:29 am
MiB laser weapon's clips are named "STR_LASER_[WEAPON]_MIB_CLIP," just so you know. It's only for the weapon's clips. It's the only issue I see with the weapons when I entered the new battle menu.


No other issues found on the Battlescape side of the game.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 14, 2014, 01:49:03 am
MiB laser weapon's clips are named "STR_LASER_[WEAPON]_MIB_CLIP," just so you know. It's only for the weapon's clips. It's the only issue I see with the weapons when I entered the new battle menu.


No other issues found on the Battlescape side of the game.

Oh, I forgot to make strings for them. Thanks for the info.

It'll be fixed tomorrow, along a general update for the Men in Black (because Robin has just released a new version).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on July 14, 2014, 02:24:35 am
A ieda for make. When finish a mission see the update of stats on the soldiers. This is interesting for the strategic of the group
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: the_third_curry on July 14, 2014, 05:05:54 am
A ieda for make. When finish a mission see the update of stats on the soldiers. This is interesting for the strategic of the group

Do you mean as in a list of kills for the soldiers like a status report or a chart of how much stats the soldiers gained from the mission?

The first one of those is available here through shoes' Soldier Diaries, which is not sadly not compatible with this mod because it's an EXE: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=1718.0

The second is being worked on by Roujin and has been requested before, but it's still in the experimental phase and may not be stable/compatible with this mod. You can check out Roujin's progress here: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2461.0
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Vulgar Monkey on July 14, 2014, 05:16:33 am
When you say 'not compatible', do you mean they cant be run together at all or just that it cant be included in the compilation and needs installing separately? I've been watching the diary mod progress and it looks fantastic. I always found myself wanting for something like that in vanilla xcom.....too hard to remember who did what otherwise.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 14, 2014, 06:59:04 am
When these mods are complete, I'd be very happy to use them. For now, we wait. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on July 14, 2014, 05:00:01 pm
In the 0.5.5b (in case of any future release will be generated), a small mistake :
-> Replace STR_RMOR with STR_JUMP_ARMOR (Line 16962)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: the_third_curry on July 14, 2014, 10:28:46 pm
When you say 'not compatible', do you mean they cant be run together at all or just that it cant be included in the compilation and needs installing separately? I've been watching the diary mod progress and it looks fantastic. I always found myself wanting for something like that in vanilla xcom.....too hard to remember who did what otherwise.

I might should have phrased that a bit better.

I really like the Soldier Diaries mod (I'm using it right now) and it is flexible and will run with most mods, probably this one as well. The problems are 1) It will need to be installed separately because it's an EXE whereas this mod isn't 2) Shoes is still ironing out the bugs in the Soldier Diaries 3) Because it's an EXE, Shoes has to merge the mod with nightlies, whereas this modpack works with any nightly release unless something in the build breaks it.

So basically, you can install the Soldier Diaries mod with this one and see how well it works, but that mod can't be merged with this one at the moment, and you'll have to wait on Shoes to fix bugs and merge with nightlies. Probably nothing will go terribly wrong, but there could be some minor issues.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 14, 2014, 11:02:40 pm
In the 0.5.5b (in case of any future release will be generated), a small mistake :
-> Replace STR_RMOR with STR_JUMP_ARMOR (Line 16962)

Ah thanks, I'll fix it now. Stupid EditPad.

I really like the Soldier Diaries mod (I'm using it right now) and it is flexible and will run with most mods, probably this one as well. The problems are (...)

Yep, exactly this. I simply don't want to add a mod that has technical issues, and especially one that affects nightly updates (which I'm using myself). But it can run along the FMP and I don't expect any conflicts, so at this point it's up to the user if they want to use it or not.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Daedalus on July 15, 2014, 10:56:36 am
Really nice mod. I love how it adds all the new stuff making the game much more diverse and interesting, while at the same time it makes it much harder and longer.

Although, I believe there's a nasty bug somewhere here...

At first I was playing Veteran Ironman with only Final Mod enabled (+some options), afters few months of doing OK I finally got my butt kicked by some aliens and lost all my men and ship in terror mission. Nothing from what I couldn't recover. I've started to rebuild my strength, but at the end of the month instead of losing some income I got information that X-Com is no more and aliens won. Well, "I suck" I said to myself and started again...

Second try with the same settings. Doing fine, few months passed, MiB starting to show up. Had some trouble with them and with aliens, lost some men, but it wasn't a disaster. Waited for new month to get some cash and upgrade the base, but suddenly I got like -4500 score out of nowhere. Next month had some ups and downs, but it wasn't that bad, still it ended in X-Com being disbanded and alien win.

Third try, same settings. Doing really well. Few months (3-5, can't remember) passed. Kicking alien asses hard. Nice month for me - won terror mission with only one soldier dead, shot down couple of smaller UFO, all crash-site missions won with no casualties. Ignored one very large UFO, but didn't have a power to even scratch it for now. Expected like 700-1000 score at the end of the month, but I got like -4300. "Where the hell did that came from?!" asked myself. Well, next month I tried even harder - everything went great, but at the end of the month I still somehow got terrible score and game ended.

I thought that game was bugged, but when I tried it without the mod, it's almost a year now and I'm constantly getting around +1000 to +2000 score each month, so it must be something with the mod.


For Final Mod I was using latest nightly at that time, which was "2014-07-09 18:15" build I believe. For clean OpenXCom I used current nightly. I'll try how the mod works on latest nightly when new version (with updated MiB) will be available. Hopefully that game-breaking bug will be gone by itself by that time.

Best regards.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 15, 2014, 11:01:56 am
Hey Daedalus,

Judging from your description, I have a theory that it's the MiB who are lurking somewhere beyond your radar scope. How good is your radar coverage?

I don't know this mod that well, but I'll investigate.

EDIT:

It looks like it is indeed caused by a landed Men in Black "base". Here's an excerpt from the Ufopedia on alien scoring, hopefully accurate:

Quote
Each UFO that flies over the Earth (per 30 mins): 1
Each UFO that lands (per 30 mins): 2

So if you have a MiB base somewhere, which counts as a landed UFO, you're losing 2880 points in 30 days - easily crippling your war effort.

The solution? Expand your radar coverage to ensure there are no MiB bases operating for any extended period of time. If this is infeasible, well, I'll have to think of changing the mod, or at least notifying Robin about the issue... More feedback is appreciated.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Daedalus on July 15, 2014, 11:37:36 am
Yeah, I thought that this can be MiB related, since it starts near the half of the year, when MiBs begin to show up. By that time I had 1 or 2 bases, so I covered two continents at most. Not much, but still I think you shouldn't get so low score for events that are beyond your reach - especially when you combine it with harder overall gameplay (modified tech tree).


edit: Oh, ok. That explains a lot. So there's currently no other way than to build as many bases as possible to cover most of the Earth or have your ships patrol the skies all of the time, and then rush to destroy MiBs as soon as you spot one. Quite challenging. ;) Shame that MiB bases cannot be added as normal alien bases, but well... I'll try how it works on the new version of the mod. When we can expect one?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on July 15, 2014, 11:53:57 am
For this problem a mod of awacs may be interesting
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on July 15, 2014, 01:30:27 pm
Well, one thing I did was to halve MiB mission weights. Not a solution but surely helps, and I don't have to fight so many waves of MiB instead of aliens.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 15, 2014, 08:11:19 pm
There's also another instrument of control, so basic that I forgot about it: the graphs. Frankly, I have never used them at all, except for an occasional curiosity, but with MiBs they should be a great help. If you notice a spike in UFO activity somewhere, it's easy to send a craft there to see if there's perhaps a MiB base.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Daedalus on July 16, 2014, 10:12:17 am
It's now much easier to fight the MiB if you know how to. I made a radar base (just access lift + large radar system) on each continent, covering like 95% of the Earth's lands. Works well... at least for now.

What bothers me is that those little buggers tend to build their bases just outside of your radar coverage. Most of the bases I have destroyed so far were placed out of my radar range and some of them I found only by accident (following a UFO or going for other MiB base).

What's even more bothering, they can somehow build their bases on the water (or on one-pixel, non-visible islands), so if you won't spot and follow the initial UFO, which then spawns the base, then you're pretty much f***ed, since you got like 1% chance of finding the base later on somewhere in the middle of an ocean.

(https://abload.de/img/openxcom2014-07-1600-60sdz.png)

Base was somewhere between those two jets:
(https://abload.de/img/openxcom2014-07-1600-iasy6.png)



BTW, during this playthrough I haven't spotted those new aliens added by the mod (got plenty of them previously, though). It's more than half a year now and I didn't see even a single one... I just hope it's a bad luck, not some issue with the latest nightlies.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 16, 2014, 12:43:23 pm
Hmm... That is very weird behaviour on the MiB. I haven't noticed them trolling me that much by avoiding the radars, and I certainly haven't seen them building bases at sea. You could be just unlucky, or there's some technical issue.

As for the new races, they're certainly there, but random dice gods are random. I've never gotten Gazers myself, though Reptoids and Cerebreals are frequent and Chtonites show up occasionally. Each game is different like that.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: the_third_curry on July 16, 2014, 07:18:46 pm
Indeed, randomness is random when it comes to alien races. Just playing with Robin's two new aliens, I got 1 waspite ship in the first 9 months or so and then I suddenly got a wave of about 4 of them.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on July 16, 2014, 07:46:11 pm
About the MiB bases on water, well, I saw a similar thing happen to me. Some distance off the west coast of Africa, near Nigeria.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: moriarty on July 16, 2014, 09:04:00 pm
If we could find out how to replicate and intentionally cause those UFO-on-water situations, that would be really cool. Imagine Oil-Drilling-Platform terror missions... or cruise ship missions for xcom1... :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on July 16, 2014, 09:26:04 pm
my guess would be a screwed up ufoTrajectories definition
e.g. taking the ufoTrajectories of a "fly over mission" to define a base/landing mission
but since i never worked with this stuff its just a guess
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Daedalus on July 16, 2014, 11:07:06 pm
Small bug report...

In 0.5.5b version I found this under the "ufopaedia" between MiB laser pistol clip and laser rifle clip:
Quote
  - id: STR_LASER_
    type_id: 4
    section: STR_WEAPONS_AND_EQUIPMENT
    text: STR_LASER__UFOPEDIA
    listOrder: 3825
    requires:
      - STR_LASER_RIFLE

I believe it should look like this, right?

Quote
  - id: STR_LASER_RIFLE_MIB
    type_id: 4
    section: STR_WEAPONS_AND_EQUIPMENT
    text: STR_LASER_RIFLE_MIB_UFOPEDIA
    listOrder: 3825
    requires:
      - STR_LASER_RIFLE
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 17, 2014, 04:34:38 pm
Thanks for the bug report. I was notified before about it (and it was fixed), but there's never too much attention.

I'll release the new version really soon, it'll contain more laser goodness (I mean, more sensibility) and of course fixes. I'm not touching the trajectories for now though; I think Robin should be notified first (and it would be great if you guys post it, since I haven't really seen it with my own eyes).

EDIT:
There's a new version in town: 0.5.6. It's slowly taking shape of a more-or-less mature product, at least in the weapons department (this time, mostly lasers). I have also updated the Men in Black stuff by Robin, fixed Labship and Sentry Ship maps.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Daedalus on July 17, 2014, 05:30:01 pm
Thanks for the updated. Quick (very small) bug report:

Quote
  - id: STR_LASER_RIFLE_MIB
    type_id: 4
    section: STR_WEAPONS_AND_EQUIPMENT
    text: STR_LASER_RIFLE_UFOPEDIA
    listOrder: 3825
    requires:
      - STR_LASER_RIFLE

Should be:
Quote
text: STR_LASER_RIFLE_MIB_UFOPEDIA

There's also a leftover string in FR translation:
Quote
STR_MIB_AGENT: Agent MiB

But I don't think it matters... My compare tool just pointed it out, so I'm reporting. ;)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 17, 2014, 11:28:18 pm
Thanks for the report, I made a fixed version 0.5.6b - it's available for download.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on July 18, 2014, 11:59:46 am
i have a middle play, in tfe 5 month, i load the game no problem, but in the inventori screen i see de gauss weapons, i dont research them i dont see in the ufopedia, but is ready to play, may be a bug????
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Daedalus on July 18, 2014, 12:29:51 pm
Yeah, there seem to be no requirements set for gauss and MiB laser weapons in ruleset, so once you get them from MiB's, you can use them. Not sure if it's intentional, though.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on July 18, 2014, 01:45:54 pm
Another problem in a mission of mib i see a tank. When i destroy the game crash
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 18, 2014, 05:34:13 pm
i have a middle play, in tfe 5 month, i load the game no problem, but in the inventori screen i see de gauss weapons, i dont research them i dont see in the ufopedia, but is ready to play, may be a bug????

It's not a bug, it's because I enabled them if you take them from the MiB. When you research them, they'll appear in the Ufopaedia.

Do you think it's too confusing? I'm still experimenting...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on July 18, 2014, 06:07:06 pm
I think its are enable must be appear in ufopedia. The confussion is the no aparition of them in ufopedia
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Daedalus on July 18, 2014, 07:54:35 pm
Nah, I think it's fine - you can use it, since it's human weapon, but detailed information will appear only when you research this technology. Reasonable enough.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on July 18, 2014, 08:04:11 pm
The problem of the tank have solution??
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: frostor on July 18, 2014, 11:35:27 pm
If have the exact problem (MiB and Tank kill).
They are using a laser Tank.
If i kill it, the tank turns (like every other big unit turns) and then the game crashes.
It seems like there is no picture of a "dead" tank or mislinked or sth.
Thus i am stuck.

EDIT:
Temporary solution:
In File "FinalModPack.rul" change:

armors:
  - type: MIBTANK_ARMOR
    spriteSheet: MIBTANKS.PCK
    corpseBattle:
      - MIBTANK_CORPSE_1
      - MIBTANK_CORPSE_2
      - MIBTANK_CORPSE_3
      - MIBTANK_CORPSE_4

To:
armors:
  - type: MIBTANK_ARMOR
    spriteSheet: MIBTANKS.PCK
    corpseBattle:
      - STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC_CORPSE_1
      - STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC_CORPSE_2
      - STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC_CORPSE_3
      - STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC_CORPSE_4

Now the tank can be killed (and it is a Corpse problem).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Daedalus on July 19, 2014, 12:18:07 am
I would rather change this....

Quote
  - type: MIBTANK_CORPSE_1
    floorSprite: 900
    invWidth: 0
    invHeight: 0
    recover: false
  - type: MIBTANK_CORPSE_2
    floorSprite: 901
    invWidth: 0
    invHeight: 0
    recover: false
  - type: MIBTANK_CORPSE_3
    floorSprite: 902
    invWidth: 0
    invHeight: 0
    recover: false
  - type: MIBTANK_CORPSE_4
    floorSprite: 903
    invWidth: 0
    invHeight: 0
    recover: false

To this...

Quote
  - type: MIBTANK_CORPSE_1
    floorSprite: 141
    invWidth: 0
    invHeight: 0
    recover: false
  - type: MIBTANK_CORPSE_2
    floorSprite: 142
    invWidth: 0
    invHeight: 0
    recover: false
  - type: MIBTANK_CORPSE_3
    floorSprite: 143
    invWidth: 0
    invHeight: 0
    recover: false
  - type: MIBTANK_CORPSE_4
    floorSprite: 144
    invWidth: 0
    invHeight: 0
    recover: false
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 19, 2014, 12:44:49 am
Derp. Looks like the 0.6 version must come now to fix this silly mistake on my part. As always, thanks and sorry.

And it's available on the mod site. Apart from this fix, it contains new pictures by our talented Vulgar Monkey, who agreed to illustrate many of the new techs. One of his pictures is actually the mod's main pic on the site.

Attention, translators: due to the pics taking up half the window, some texts had to be truncated to fit the screen, most notably Alien Biology. Please make sure that your language version is also short enough.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Daedalus on July 19, 2014, 01:06:01 pm
Solarius, would you be interested in adding laser sniper rifle and laser equivalent of shotgun (like the scatter laser from XCOM 2012)? I can provide the ready-to-use code and sprites, since I already implemented it for myself as an addition to your mod. The sprites are not super fancy, but they'll do.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: zetzet13 on July 19, 2014, 01:42:40 pm
Thanks for the hard work.
I like this very much.

Two short questions about the mod and the tech tree:

1. Seeing as you reached version 0.6 is it actually possible to beat the game right now or is it still too early?

2. I'm now in my 4th month and desperately in need of new weaponry. I captured some Navigators and researched everything up to Gauss Cannon and Laser Defense, but there still isn't anything for my soldiers popping up.
The last 5 missions were only Gazers, so I can't stun them as hard as I try since I'm stuck with prods, tasers and Dart Rifles.

It's really getting bad.  Like Xcom bad...  ;D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 19, 2014, 02:56:26 pm
Solarius, would you be interested in adding laser sniper rifle and laser equivalent of shotgun (like the scatter laser from XCOM 2012)? I can provide the ready-to-use code and sprites, since I already implemented it for myself as an addition to your mod. The sprites are not super fancy, but they'll do.

Laser sniper rifle sounds reasonable, laser shotgun - I'm not sure really. But I guess seeing your sprites would be nice, thanks for the offer! There's always demand for weapon sprites, if not for the FMP then for other projects/people.

I need to think about it, but I think at least the sniper laser is a good idea.

Thanks for the hard work.
I like this very much.

Two short questions about the mod and the tech tree:

1. Seeing as you reached version 0.6 is it actually possible to beat the game right now or is it still too early?

The mod only adds stuff, it doesn't remove or change any elements (well, except the tanks, which were improved a bit). This means that yes, you're able to finish the game as it is, it'll just probably take longer, since research paths to Cydonia or Bust and Avenger have more steps.

2. I'm now in my 4th month and desperately in need of new weaponry. I captured some Navigators and researched everything up to Gauss Cannon and Laser Defense, but there still isn't anything for my soldiers popping up.
The last 5 missions were only Gazers, so I can't stun them as hard as I try since I'm stuck with prods, tasers and Dart Rifles.

It's really getting bad.  Like Xcom bad...  ;D

The only thing I can recommend (besides getting the latest version, which makes access to lasers easier) is interrogating Engineers, Medics, Leaders and Commanders. They hold the secrets to advanced alien weaponry.

In the meantime you should be able to gather some lasers and gauss guns from the Men in Black. Their lasers have limited clips and aren't as strong as true X-Com lasers, but they're still very useful. And gauss weapons are really strong, although tough aliens tend to be resistant to AP damage.

Hopefully this helps!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: zetzet13 on July 19, 2014, 05:19:45 pm
It will, but I'll restart for a third time.  ;)
Feels just like then when I was still a teenager with the DOS version.

Thanks and keep up the good work!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: the_third_curry on July 19, 2014, 07:34:21 pm
@Solarius Scorch

Any ideas as to what the next major addition will be at this point?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 19, 2014, 07:49:25 pm
@Solarius Scorch

Any ideas as to what the next major addition will be at this point?

Sooner or later I need to sit down and start working on the armours. There are five armours to make, and this is seriously scaring me, since I've barely started working on my first set of sprites (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2639.0). I have some ideas, but it'll take time.

A much more accessible thing is adding the elerium bombs by Fatrat (fired from the Small Launcher), which I already did. But it's a minor thing.

Oh, and I would like to add more UFOs, perhaps another faction (see the link above), and maybe also one more squad carrier if I manage to fit it somewhere.

And once it's viable, I would like to add tons of neutral combatants, from police officers to military personnel to crazy Texans...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Daedalus on July 20, 2014, 12:44:37 am
Quote
Laser sniper rifle sounds reasonable, laser shotgun - I'm not sure really. But I guess seeing your sprites would be nice, thanks for the offer! There's always demand for weapon sprites, if not for the FMP then for other projects/people.

I need to think about it, but I think at least the sniper laser is a good idea.

Well, those are nothing special, like I said. Sprite for scatter laser was actually made by Chiko - I only cut some pixels here and there to make it smaller. Laser sniper is just a modified laser rifle with a small scope (edit: seems like I only took it from UFO:TTS and rescaled it long time ago, so I'll have to make a new one...). I only have bigobs for them, since they're very similar to laser rifle.

(https://abload.de/img/screen000o4j7y.jpg)(https://abload.de/img/screen00220jk1.jpg)

I also have a heavy, .50 caliber sniper rifle if you want one. While searching for new sniper rifle sounds I found a really cool one, but it was too powerful for current sniper rifle, so I made new rifle from scratch for my own satisfaction. ;) It's big, it's heavy, it's less accurate, it has low ammo, aimed shot takes 90% TUs, but it deals almost as much damage as heavy cannon. Again, only bigobs for this one...

(https://abload.de/img/screen001xmj7g.jpg)(https://abload.de/img/screen0034wkxk.jpg)

I added a quite significant close range accuracy penalty to it, so it's only good for long range sniping.

Oh, and while we at that... Today while I checked Pirates ruleset I've noticed that many weapons have "aimRange" parameter set. I checked how it works in-game and I must say that it's just brilliant! Adding this parameter with proper values to all of the weapons would greatly enhance overall gameplay. Finally choosing between different weapon types for close-mid-far encounters would have more sense and sniper rifles with proper "minRange" value would be good only for sniping distant targets. I know it would be a lot of work to balance it, but are you even considering to implement such things?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on July 20, 2014, 11:25:50 am
Well, those are nothing special, like I said. Sprite for scatter laser was actually made by Chiko - I only cut some pixels here and there to make it smaller. Laser sniper is just a modified laser rifle with a small scope (edit: seems like I only took it from UFO:TTS and rescaled it long time ago, so I'll have to make a new one...). I only have bigobs for them, since they're very similar to laser rifle.
Are you intended to provide these sprites ?
I would be personnally interested...

EDIT : perhaps were you able to answer this "request (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=383.msg27335#msg27335)"
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 20, 2014, 02:32:31 pm
Thanks for the pics Daedalus. They look quite nice, I'd be interesting in using both the laser sniper rifle and the heavy sniper rifle! Though I'd take away the latter's Snap Shot option.

Oh, and while we at that... Today while I checked Pirates ruleset I've noticed that many weapons have "aimRange" parameter set. I checked how it works in-game and I must say that it's just brilliant! Adding this parameter with proper values to all of the weapons would greatly enhance overall gameplay. Finally choosing between different weapon types for close-mid-far encounters would have more sense and sniper rifles with proper "minRange" value would be good only for sniping distant targets. I know it would be a lot of work to balance it, but are you even considering to implement such things?

Basically, yes. But I haven't done this yet, and I would actually accept help. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on July 20, 2014, 02:40:28 pm
a idea for a armour, less protection but may be iluminated the area, similar than a flare, ideal for night combat
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 20, 2014, 02:45:27 pm
a idea for a armour, less protection but may be iluminated the area, similar than a flare, ideal for night combat

How about making Cyberdiscs glow...? :D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on July 20, 2014, 02:54:11 pm
a idea for a armour, less protection but may be iluminated the area, similar than a flare, ideal for night combat
Ideal from alien point of view ?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on July 22, 2014, 03:10:01 am
In a base mission in the 3 tu rn i see 6 muton crazy running for me. In less 10 tu rns the mission is finish
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 22, 2014, 03:53:42 am
In a base mission in the 3 tu rn i see 6 muton crazy running for me. In less 10 tu rns the mission is finish

It's hardly related to the mod, but... Well, losing is fun (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html)! :q
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on July 22, 2014, 04:09:03 am
It's hardly related to the mod, but... Well, losing is fun (https://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html)! :q
What is this ?? It has a nice look, some ultima I/Angband/... design
I will test it if it's a stand alone game, thanks for the link :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 22, 2014, 11:14:47 am
What is this ?? It has a nice look, some ultima I/Angband/... design
I will test it if it's a stand alone game, thanks for the link :)

An indie gamer not knowing Dwarf Fortress? O_o Damn, this community is a virgin.

I need to make a thread about it. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: PegasusOrgans on July 23, 2014, 03:11:14 am
How about some of the new mods like WEAPON REWORK/EXPANSION and COLORED ARMORS?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: zetzet13 on July 24, 2014, 06:36:59 pm
Hello!

Here is something about research.
I just noticed that often times you don't get a notice when new research is unlocked.
It's there in the topics but easy to miss.

Is there any way to change that?

Sadly I can't give a specific topic right because I just noticed by accident.
the last few topics I researched were Alien Leaders, so maybe that's the problem?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: DreamsofTrance on July 24, 2014, 07:26:28 pm
Hello! I'm fairly new to Open Xcom and wanted to mention that I LOVE this mod. Been enjoying it for about 30 hours over the last few days.

Edit: Nevermind, found I just couldn't read... :D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 24, 2014, 09:35:52 pm
Sorry it took me so long to respond, I've been extremely busy recently.

How about some of the new mods like WEAPON REWORK/EXPANSION and COLORED ARMORS?

Every mod is being considered. I generally don't want to change vanilla items, but if I find a place for new weapons, why not. As for the armours, I haven't really started yet on this part... :)

Hello!

Here is something about research.
I just noticed that often times you don't get a notice when new research is unlocked.
It's there in the topics but easy to miss.

Is there any way to change that?

Sadly I can't give a specific topic right because I just noticed by accident.
the last few topics I researched were Alien Leaders, so maybe that's the problem?

Hmm, sadly I don't know why it happens, but I noticed it too. It's not unique to the FMP anyway.

Hello! I'm fairly new to Open Xcom and wanted to mention that I LOVE this mod. Been enjoying it for about 30 hours over the last few days.

Edit: Nevermind, found I just couldn't read... :D

Nevermind, I didn't see that. :D Enjoy the mod!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 25, 2014, 02:10:08 pm
Version 0.6.1 is up:
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on July 25, 2014, 02:15:00 pm
Gah! You beat me to it. I was going to make explosive ammo for the Tank/Cannon and autoshot for the Tank/Rocket Launcher.

I also noticed you had auto shot laser tanks...

D'aw. I was having fun testing out my own models. Oh well. This mod is good fun. As the OP states, not for everyone. It's fun, but it's really hard during the first terror missions due to Cyberdisks. Really fun mod. I've tried it out on two occasions, but the Cyberdisks keep killing half my team due to lack of laser weapons. Tank/Rocket Launchers help, but only to a point. When I did get the lasers, I was confused because I hadn't met MiB yet and we were producing clones of their weapons  :P Great fun. Loved it. Didn't finish it due the save being corrupted because of my own stupidity...

-

Permission to look at your code to see where I keep going wrong with my own tanks? I won't take anything without your permission, I just want to see where I keep going wrong with my own tanks. I've so far only made one, a Tank/Plasma (not a hover) and it was really confusing to me at the time.

PS: I'm new to modding.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 25, 2014, 02:28:06 pm
Gah! You beat me to it. I was going to make explosive ammo for the Tank/Cannon and autoshot for the Tank/Rocket Launcher.

Lol. Sorry. :) But I'd be happy to hear some opinions on balance, since I didn't have the time to test it thoroughly.

I also noticed you had auto shot laser tanks...

Yeah. The general idea is: threaded tanks have the auto-shot option and better snap shot accuracy, because hovertanks have minor stabilization issues, but they are more resilient and faster (and, obviously, hovering).

D'aw. I was having fun testing out my own models. Oh well. This mod is good fun. As the OP states, not for everyone. It's fun, but it's really hard during the first terror missions due to Cyberdisks.

Hey, that's not me, that's vanilla! :P

Although I admit me taking away early lasers from you makes them worse. My advice would be: use fire. Flamethrowers work well on Cyberdisks.

Tank/Rocket Launchers help, but only to a point. When I did get the lasers, I was confused because I hadn't met MiB yet and we were producing clones of their weapons  :P

Heh. :P I was hoping this wouldn't be happening, considering how prevalent the MiB are. Still, this isn't a problem I guess, since the weapon descriptions only mention the MiB use them, there's no actual erroneous logic... I think.

Great fun. Loved it. Didn't finish it due the save being corrupted because of my own stupidity...

Ouch. :( But don't worry, start again, each new version keeps getting better! ;)

Permission to look at your code to see where I keep going wrong with my own tanks? I won't take anything without your permission, I just want to see where I keep going wrong with my own tanks. I've so far only made one, a Tank/Plasma (not a hover) and it was really confusing to me at the time.

No, common people are forbidden from looking at my sacred code! :P But seriously, do whatever you wish with it; much of it was made by other people anyway. And I think that a modder who forbids others from reusing their work, and expecting people to honour this, is in need of professional help. And a smack on the head. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on July 25, 2014, 02:49:54 pm
Lol. Sorry. :) But I'd be happy to hear some opinions on balance, since I didn't have the time to test it thoroughly.

I'd suggest adding Autoshot to the Tank/Cannon. I think someone stated that the calibre was 20mm-30mm. Usually these cannons are autocannons/chain guns, and are fired in bursts. I think make it a little more realistic, and possibly with more use - rivalling that of the Tank/Rocket Launcher.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfXLEURxozc#t=45 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfXLEURxozc#t=45)

Adding in civilian's "new" (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2064.0) tanks, or at least the Artillery tank, would be a nice addition. I found the Artillery tank to be very useful for both close and long range support on downed UFO missions and landing sites. I added autoshot myself and made the ammo capacity a little bigger, due to Grenade Launchers usually firing a few times, like on the AAV-7A1 AMTRAC.

Yeah. The general idea is: threaded tanks have the auto-shot option and better snap shot accuracy, because hovertanks have minor stabilization issues, but they are more resilient and faster (and, obviously, hovering).

Reasonable. Even though Lasers have little to no recoil (2 million times less than .22).

Hey, that's not me, that's vanilla! :P

Although I admit me taking away early lasers from you makes them worse. My advice would be: use fire. Flamethrowers work well on Cyberdisks.

It's weird how the flamethrowers worked on them :p But hey, XCOM Logic. I find spamming grenades and rockets help a little bit.

Heh. :P I was hoping this wouldn't be happening, considering how prevalent the MiB are. Still, this isn't a problem I guess, since the weapon descriptions only mention the MiB use them, there's no actual erroneous logic... I think.

It was probably my fault considering I only get a new base every month until I'm financially stable. But I'm just going to presume that Governments of the world felt bad that MiB already had lasers and I didn't :p so they gave us their designs

Ouch. :( But don't worry, start again, each new version keeps getting better! ;)
Just about to start a new playthrough. Might give it another go if no other mods catch my interest in the coming week.

No, common people are forbidden from looking at my sacred code! :P But seriously, do whatever you wish with it; much of it was made by other people anyway. And I think that a modder who forbids others from reusing their work, and expecting people to honour this, is in need of professional help. And a smack on the head. :)

All right! Thanks. I promise I won't plagiarize your code. I'll just stroll on in and see what's wrong with my own code and make it a little bit better. I was thinking of making a HWP compilation that adds AutoShot to most tanks and combining most tanks that people have made into one mod pack - within reason and credits of course.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 25, 2014, 03:16:11 pm
I'd suggest adding Autoshot to the Tank/Cannon. I think someone stated that the calibre was 20mm-30mm. Usually these cannons are autocannons/chain guns, and are fired in bursts. I think make it a little more realistic, and possibly with more use - rivalling that of the Tank/Rocket Launcher.

Sure, this can be done, but we need to decide: either this, or explosive rounds.

Unless the blast power is significantly decreased, to something like 30 (which is much more deadly than an AP round with strength 30, as explosives hit against under armour, which is usually puny).

What do you think?

Adding in civilian's "new" (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2064.0) tanks, or at least the Artillery tank, would be a nice addition. I found the Artillery tank to be very useful for both close and long range support on downed UFO missions and landing sites.

I've been thinking about something like this, but I don't have a clear vision of how to balance it yet.

Reasonable. Even though Lasers have little to no recoil (2 million times less than .22).

It's not just recoil, it's a mechanical limitation of smoothly rotating the barrel in small increments - one of the biggest struggles of anti-air cannons today.

It's weird how the flamethrowers worked on them :p But hey, XCOM Logic. I find spamming grenades and rockets help a little bit.

Nothing we can do about it, so let's pretend it's all normal. :)

It was probably my fault considering I only get a new base every month until I'm financially stable.

One per month should be enough, as long as you are adamant about it. Not having the Earth well covered is the easiest way to lose with the Men in Black on. Remember to watch the graphs for sudden UFO activity spikes - after all these years, graphs are finally useful! :) Do it especially when you are doing poorly points-wise, and you don't know why. If you find some consistent activity in an unsupervised region, it's almost for sure a MiB base which will ruin your game within a month or two. (This is not my own design, it's Robin's, but I kinda like it for its harshness...)

But I'm just going to presume that Governments of the world felt bad that MiB already had lasers and I didn't :p so they gave us their designs

You mean you discovered hand-held lasers the normal way (Power Source Miniaturization) and then got the Ufopaedia articles and manufacturing options, right? Nothing weird happened? And if it did, what version were you playing?

All right! Thanks. I promise I won't plagiarize your code. I'll just stroll on in and see what's wrong with my own code and make it a little bit better.

No problem, do with this what you want, though if you use large portions of it please credit the author, be it myself or someone else.

I was thinking of making a HWP compilation that adds AutoShot to most tanks and combining most tanks that people have made into one mod pack - within reason and credits of course.

It's a good idea, I actually made something like this myself, but be warned that modding tanks is tricky. You have my permission to use my tank/turret sprites if you want, since I think it's pointless to do it again, unless you want some graphic files that I don't have. And if you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask for help.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on July 25, 2014, 04:09:29 pm
Sure, this can be done, but we need to decide: either this, or explosive rounds.

Unless the blast power is significantly decreased, to something like 30 (which is much more deadly than an AP round with strength 30, as explosives hit against under armour, which is usually puny).

What do you think?

I modified the Tank/Cannon in my most recent playthrough to where it auto-fired and it was still very underpowered compared to either the Tank/Artillery or the Tank/Rocket Launcher. Reducing blast power would probably be best in this situation.

I've been thinking about something like this, but I don't have a clear vision of how to balance it yet.
I'm not sure if I'd consider the Tank/Artillery OP or just fun in my most recent playthrough. I used it for long and close range, and it was effective. It was kinda like a buffer zone between Rocket and Cannon. But, if possible, making it inefficient at close range might be helpful. Since it is called Tank/Artillery after all.

It's not just recoil, it's a mechanical limitation of smoothly rotating the barrel in small increments - one of the biggest struggles of anti-air cannons today.

Again, very reasonable.

One per month should be enough, as long as you are adamant about it. Not having the Earth well covered is the easiest way to lose with the Men in Black on. Remember to watch the graphs for sudden UFO activity spikes - after all these years, graphs are finally useful! :) Do it especially when you are doing poorly points-wise, and you don't know why. If you find some consistent activity in an unsupervised region, it's almost for sure a MiB base which will ruin your game within a month or two. (This is not my own design, it's Robin's, but I kinda like it for its harshness...)

It's a really fun mod, it's a curveball thrown to XCOM. Managing their own traitors while fighting off an alien invasion. It's very harsh, but that's to be expected of another organization rivalling that of XCOM.

You mean you discovered hand-held lasers the normal way (Power Source Miniaturization) and then got the Ufopaedia articles and manufacturing options, right? Nothing weird happened? And if it did, what version were you playing?

It was meant as a joke  :P

No problem, do with this what you want, though if you use large portions of it please credit the author, be it myself or someone else.

Of course. Though this will take at least two weeks to look at the tank mods, make them balanced/usable and then make them into one big mod (Which will be my first to make public).

It's a good idea, I actually made something like this myself, but be warned that modding tanks is tricky. You have my permission to use my tank/turret sprites if you want, since I think it's pointless to do it again, unless you want some graphic files that I don't have. And if you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask for help.

I'm planning on asking for help. I already have a handful of mods to convert to the mod pack. I just need to give it a name and configure it all in Notepad ++. Of course I'll probably make a handful of threads, or one thread, concerning the assistance I need. I will make a couple of tanks available from the start and then make more available as time progresses. I may take some influence from the HWP section of your mod pack, and even take some inspiration from most of the tanks you have in the mod (I.E Hover/Rocket Launcher) and attempt to make it so every vehicle is still viable especially after you research hover tanks and hover/plasma. Probably by taking a chapter from your "book" so to speak and make hovers have more armor, but no auto.

While this is all off topic, I appreciate your help. I was thinking of starting in a couple hours. Start a thread probably an hour after that due to the help I would need  :P
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Hobbes on July 25, 2014, 06:11:35 pm
Is there a diagram that shows the changes on the tech tree brought by this mod?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: the_third_curry on July 25, 2014, 06:43:47 pm
Honestly, I've never used the Tank/Cannon in the vanilla game.

I modified the Tank/Cannon in my most recent playthrough to where it auto-fired and it was still very underpowered compared to either the Tank/Artillery or the Tank/Rocket Launcher.

Maybe the Tank/Cannon could get a burst-fire where it shoots 5 times.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: guille1434 on July 25, 2014, 07:47:51 pm
About tanks.... This is a question for the more (than me) knowledgeable modders here: Would it be possible to mod a tank with TWO weapon systems (just like a soldier holding a weapon in each hand)? For example a tank with a large calibre cannon (with just aimed/snap fire capacity) AND a smaller caliber autocannon with auto fire and less powerful ammo. What do you think? Someone tested that concept? Thanks! (Or may be... Tanks!)  8)

By the way: I would like to give a million thanks to the author(s) of this super-mod, because is completely fantastic, and also is very alive and kicking with frequent updates! It rocks!!  ;D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on July 25, 2014, 10:20:06 pm
*deletes all existing mods*
*downloads Final Mod Pack*

Giving it a go to see how it goes! Think I will struggle mostly with the revamped research tech tree, but I like a challenge!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on July 25, 2014, 10:36:06 pm
Ok, straight in, you probably know about it....

Why is there a UFOpedia page showing Alien Containment, yet it is not available to build or research?

Do you have an up to date Research Tree diagram by any chance?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 25, 2014, 11:19:01 pm
Is there a diagram that shows the changes on the tech tree brought by this mod?

There were some, but at the moment I don't have anything remotely up to date, and I don't feel like spending hours on this today - sorry. :)

I'll ask Falko if he still has that diagram generator. If he doesn't, I'll probably force myself to do this. :)

Honestly, I've never used the Tank/Cannon in the vanilla game.

Maybe the Tank/Cannon could get a burst-fire where it shoots 5 times.

Yeah, maybe... Basically an Auto-Cannon with explosive rounds and higher rate of fire.

About tanks.... This is a question for the more (than me) knowledgeable modders here: Would it be possible to mod a tank with TWO weapon systems (just like a soldier holding a weapon in each hand)? For example a tank with a large calibre cannon (with just aimed/snap fire capacity) AND a smaller caliber autocannon with auto fire and less powerful ammo. What do you think? Someone tested that concept? Thanks! (Or may be... Tanks!)  8)

Sadly, it's not possible at this time. But I'm hoping for this too! :)

By the way: I would like to give a million thanks to the author(s) of this super-mod, because is completely fantastic, and also is very alive and kicking with frequent updates! It rocks!!  ;D

Hehe, thanks! I admit it's tremendously fun for me as well. :D The only problem is, any new stuff I'm making is somehow related to the FMP, which sometimes poses problems if I want to make some standalone mod... ;)

*deletes all existing mods*
*downloads Final Mod Pack*

Giving it a go to see how it goes! Think I will struggle mostly with the revamped research tech tree, but I like a challenge!

It's not as hard as it used to be... You can get lasers within a few months. They're not as good as the vanilla lasers, which come up much later, but they're comparable.

Nevertheless, this mod does make the game harder... Watch out for alien activity beyond your radars. :)

Ok, straight in, you probably know about it....

Why is there a UFOpedia page showing Alien Containment, yet it is not available to build or research?

Umm, yes you are right, I've never noticed this. It is a bug, will be fixed in the next release.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on July 25, 2014, 11:56:14 pm
What about bugs that's a few months old which has been incorporated?

I.e. Medical First Aid.... says it costs 10 TUs to use it, but actually costs 20 TUs.
Learnt the hard way, failed to save my comrades in time....

Scout drone has a tiny picture in inventory when it is killed, taking up 1 slot rather than 6 slots.

Finally, I am using Tank/Cannon with this mod, but I certainly wasn't expecting this to be explosive, was this intentional?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 26, 2014, 12:08:53 am
What about bugs that's a few months old which has been incorporated?

I.e. Medical First Aid.... says it costs 10 TUs to use it, but actually costs 20 TUs.
Learnt the hard way, failed to save my comrades in time....

Okay, I'll modify the description. I never really read that wall of text. :P

Scout drone has a tiny picture in inventory when it is killed, taking up 1 slot rather than 6 slots.

Well, I will appreciate if someone makes a better bigob. :)

Finally, I am using Tank/Cannon with this mod, but I certainly wasn't expecting this to be explosive, was this intentional?

See posts on this page. :P
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on July 26, 2014, 12:28:08 am
Ah yes sorry I see the discussion about explosive cannons! Think I prefer nnonexplosivies! Also, when the drone is destroyed, a message comes up saying "scout has been killed " which isn't normal for a tank...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: guille1434 on July 26, 2014, 12:58:57 am
Solarius: Thanks for your answers! I also hope the possibility of making two weapon tanks be enabled sometime in the future...
You are THE MAN! Thanks again for your excellent and undoubtely hard job! I am slowly making an "Add-on" mod for the FMP adding some little things I would like to give my X-Com Special Forces!!  8)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on July 26, 2014, 03:06:53 pm
This looks a little bit lonely/mismatched after researching Alien Alloys Ammo...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 26, 2014, 03:40:36 pm
I thought this bug was fixed long ago...?

I'll have a look at it ASAP.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on July 26, 2014, 04:43:44 pm
What about this:-

A short range radar and a long range radar registers as two long range detection range?

I dont recall seeing this in Vanilla OpenXcom?

Sorry, just trying to help detect bugs!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 26, 2014, 05:01:25 pm
What about this:-

A short range radar and a long range radar registers as two long range detection range?

I dont recall seeing this in Vanilla OpenXcom?

Sorry, just trying to help detect bugs!

Yeah, I'm grateful.

I did nothing to the radars though... Weird.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on July 26, 2014, 05:21:23 pm
its the same behaviour without any mod
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on July 26, 2014, 05:22:07 pm
Yeah, I'm grateful.

I did nothing to the radars though... Weird.

You are correct, seems to be nothing to do with your mod.

Ran a vanilla Xcom on latest GIT build  and the same problem persists.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Gordonmull on July 28, 2014, 12:57:28 am
Don't think this has been mentioned but I researched a floater corpse and got what looked like the the anti-grav research results instead of the floater autopsy results. Still have the option to research the antigrav  though.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 28, 2014, 01:22:13 am
Don't think this has been mentioned but I researched a floater corpse and got what looked like the the anti-grav research results instead of the floater autopsy results. Still have the option to research the antigrav  though.

OK, I'll have a look at it... Thanks.

(This sounds like a probably bug on my part. Doing all those antigrav stuff was complicated.)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on July 28, 2014, 02:28:02 am
A way to test it is to build a ruleset, to be loaded after your FMP ruleset, which :
- set all research cost to 1
- allows buying any item
- eventually make all items producible

This way, you can simulate research tree, buying needed items when you want to have them

I made my own rulesets  but they should not be fully compliant with your own FMP, as my mod is a little different

Anyway I provide them in case it could help you
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 28, 2014, 11:33:06 am
A way to test it is to build a ruleset, to be loaded after your FMP ruleset, which :
- set all research cost to 1
- allows buying any item
- eventually make all items producible

Or you can simply edit the save. It is faster, but requires some understanding of how the game works; for example, what poppedResearch is.

Frankly, I'm using both methods.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on July 28, 2014, 11:58:08 am
Thanks for the hint, I will try it
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on July 28, 2014, 02:59:57 pm
There were some, but at the moment I don't have anything remotely up to date, and I don't feel like spending hours on this today - sorry. :)

I'll ask Falko if he still has that diagram generator. If he doesn't, I'll probably force myself to do this. :)



I'll happily analyse the rulesets and produce a research diagram if you like?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Gordonmull on July 28, 2014, 09:48:28 pm
Not sure if this is to do with the FMP or not but I thought I'd start here and if I get redirected elsewhere I'll report it there.

Investigated a small sized UFO crash site (forgot to ID it, sorry) in a Skyranger and this is how the mission started. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/57278801@N04/14767417444/) https://www.flickr.com/photos/57278801@N04/14767417444/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/57278801@N04/14767417444/)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 29, 2014, 01:11:47 pm
Not sure if this is to do with the FMP or not but I thought I'd start here and if I get redirected elsewhere I'll report it there.

Investigated a small sized UFO crash site (forgot to ID it, sorry) in a Skyranger and this is how the mission started. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/57278801@N04/14767417444/) https://www.flickr.com/photos/57278801@N04/14767417444/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/57278801@N04/14767417444/)

O_o

That's pretty cool. :D But unlikely to do anything with the FMP.

Were you able to complete the mission? Do you have any other mods enabled? Are you using nightlies?

This looks a little bit lonely/mismatched after researching Alien Alloys Ammo...

I checked and it works fine to me. This means either of the two:
1) You're using an outdated version.
2) Somehow by upgrading to the newer version, something did not update properly. This sometimes happens with the research tree.

Either way, there's nothing I can do to fix this, because it's not broken. And it shouldn't break your campaign anyway.

Don't think this has been mentioned but I researched a floater corpse and got what looked like the the anti-grav research results instead of the floater autopsy results. Still have the option to research the antigrav  though.

It looks like the antigrav module info takes precedence over the autopsy info, and only one item can be displayed after research is complete, even though both should be displayed. I moved the antigrav module ufopaedia trigger to antigrav armour, since it's not that jarring. A more solid solution would be to create a new research item, I'll experiment with it.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on July 29, 2014, 01:47:27 pm
O_o

That's pretty cool. :D But unlikely to do anything with the FMP.

Were you able to complete the mission? Do you have any other mods enabled? Are you using nightlies?
I had the same problem a while back. It's MiB. When I down one of their transports, my guys spawn in both my Skyranger and their Transport. Same with the firestorm/lightning maps too.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 29, 2014, 02:18:54 pm
I had the same problem a while back. It's MiB. When I down one of their transports, my guys spawn in both my Skyranger and their Transport. Same with the firestorm/lightning maps too.

Ah, that makes sense. It's also kinda my fault, since I convinced Robin to make the MiB use Earth crafts. :)

Anyway, please report this bug in the Men in Black thread.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on July 29, 2014, 02:39:14 pm
I checked and it works fine to me. This means either of the two:
1) You're using an outdated version.
2) Somehow by upgrading to the newer version, something did not update properly. This sometimes happens with the research tree.

Either way, there's nothing I can do to fix this, because it's not broken. And it shouldn't break your campaign anyway.


Actually using the FMP mod from the modsite (v 6.1) and latest nightly GIT builds. No other mods are included or enabled.

I will download and reinstall OpenXcom and FMP and check again.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 29, 2014, 02:54:34 pm
I will download and reinstall OpenXcom and FMP and check again.

If it doesn't work, try starting a new campaign.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on July 29, 2014, 08:35:30 pm
Fresh install with OpenXcom, game files, FMP mod AND a new campaign.

The issue still persists.

You will find it if you go to UFOpedia, select Skyranger page, click Next Next Next Next, and you will find the same screenshot, it is located just before Tank/Scout or Tank/Cannon page.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on July 29, 2014, 08:54:16 pm
I had a quick look and it is not same issue as previous

Anyway, I found an error in ruleset V0.6.1 : look for "- id: STR_HOVERTANK_LAUNCHER" (line 11576), attributes are not defined

Could it be that this kind of issue come back still HOVERTANK have been implemented ?

Because I see something that doesn't make me confident : declaring a ufopedia dependent on many requirements

As an example
  - id: STR_SECTOPOD_LASER
    type_id: 3
    section: STR_HEAVY_WEAPONS_PLATFORMS
    weapon: STR_LASER_CANNON
    listOrder: 1620
    requires:
      - STR_LASER_CANNON
      - STR_SECTOPOD_CONSTRUCTION
    text: STR_SECTOPOD_LASER_UFOPEDIA

It seems to me that this may cause strange behaviour
It has to be checked, but I guess a ufopaedia entry should always have only one "requires:"
If need more, create a research topic with cost 0 that include these requirements, then declare this new research entry as unique requirement of ufopaedia entry

Beware that I did not yet make all the tests to affirm this
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 30, 2014, 01:26:38 pm
Fresh install with OpenXcom, game files, FMP mod AND a new campaign.

The issue still persists.

You will find it if you go to UFOpedia, select Skyranger page, click Next Next Next Next, and you will find the same screenshot, it is located just before Tank/Scout or Tank/Cannon page.

Damn. You are right; it displays fine when researched, but not when browsing the Ufopaedia.

I think I know how to fix this, but it'll take some work. Will be done though... eventually. Now it's fixed.

Anyway, I found an error in ruleset V0.6.1 : look for "- id: STR_HOVERTANK_LAUNCHER" (line 11576), attributes are not defined

Sorry, but... what attributes? I don't understand the problem. (The article displays just fine.)

Because I see something that doesn't make me confident : declaring a ufopedia dependent on many requirements

As an example
  - id: STR_SECTOPOD_LASER
    type_id: 3
    section: STR_HEAVY_WEAPONS_PLATFORMS
    weapon: STR_LASER_CANNON
    listOrder: 1620
    requires:
      - STR_LASER_CANNON
      - STR_SECTOPOD_CONSTRUCTION
    text: STR_SECTOPOD_LASER_UFOPEDIA

It seems to me that this may cause strange behaviour

Well, bluntly speaking, it's not my code - it's Harry's. I haven't 100% screened every mod I've included, I only fix problems that I can find, and I found nothing wrong with this. So I assume this code is correct and multiple prerequisites work, although I'm not confident enough to use this feature myself.

If it is confirmed that this causes weird behaviour, then of course I'll fix it. :)

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on July 30, 2014, 05:54:57 pm
Sorry, but... what attributes? I don't understand the problem. (The article displays just fine.)
I was speaking about this, but if it works, don't pay any attention
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on July 30, 2014, 05:58:11 pm
I was speaking about this, but if it works, don't pay any attention

Oh... Okay. Sorry, I'll have a look at it and come back to you. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on August 01, 2014, 11:40:54 am
Quick question - what do I need to research alien weapons?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 01, 2014, 11:46:06 am
Quick question - what do I need to research alien weapons?

In short, you need to interrogate many Engineers, Leaders or Commanders. Every time you do, you get a random research, and each alien weapon requires several of them.
You also need some basic stuff like the UFO Power Source, but you'll almost certainly have it before collecting plasma and fusion prerequisites.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on August 01, 2014, 12:00:43 pm
Ah, I see. So it's not enough to capture a variety of aliens - quantity matters too?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 01, 2014, 12:07:19 pm
Ah, I see. So it's not enough to capture a variety of aliens - quantity matters too?

Yes, definitely so. Live capture is the pillar of this mod.

Now, for something completely different: I'm thinking of making the Large Radar System researchable, so that the Small Radar System wouldn't be obsolete from day 1. However, I'm also wondering if it wouldn't make the game too hard, with shorter detection ranges. Besides, the LRS is obsoleted anyway by the Hyper-Wave Decoder. What do you think?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: pkrcel on August 01, 2014, 01:37:28 pm
That Maybe the small radar system should simply be removed from the game.

Detection mechanics in XCOM have always baffled me  ???

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on August 01, 2014, 02:05:36 pm
That Maybe the small radar system should simply be removed from the game.

Detection mechanics in XCOM have always baffled me  ???
Right, I had the same feeling

Yes, definitely so. Live capture is the pillar of this mod.

Now, for something completely different: I'm thinking of making the Large Radar System researchable, so that the Small Radar System wouldn't be obsolete from day 1. However, I'm also wondering if it wouldn't make the game too hard, with shorter detection ranges. Besides, the LRS is obsoleted anyway by the Hyper-Wave Decoder. What do you think?
Perhaps group this idea with an awacs
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 01, 2014, 02:09:25 pm
Well I don't really want to remove the content. I don't personally care about the small radar, but I feel it might be too arbitrary in an already very arbitrary mod.

Perhaps group this idea with an awacs

We could do that, but I dread the very idea of having to manually patrol the globe. I'd rather have a 100% radar coverage. :P
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on August 01, 2014, 02:12:44 pm
We could do that, but I dread the very idea of having to manually patrol the globe. I'd rather have a 100% radar coverage. :P
I meant for the beginning
Once the big one is researched, you get back the 100% radar coverage possibility
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 01, 2014, 02:18:10 pm
I meant for the beginning
Once the big one is researched, you get back the 100% radar coverage possibility

OK, I'll think about it. Not for the next release, but probably right after. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: pkrcel on August 01, 2014, 02:39:06 pm
Well I don't really want to remove the content. I don't personally care about the small radar, but I feel it might be too arbitrary in an already very arbitrary mod.

Well, I hear your feelings, but in all honesty SRS adds ZERO to the game...it's not that the LRS costs too much, and having percentages stack up right until the HWD (which obsoletes the radars altogether) it's STILL a bit silly....the HWD shouldl be used in ADDITION to the radar, not in substitution.

Thinking about it anyway, detection mechanics in XCOM need some sort of fixing to be more scalable....or maybe be substituted by a satellite network.... ::)


We could do that, but I dread the very idea of having to manually patrol the globe. I'd rather have a 100% radar coverage. :P

Manually patrolling the globe is meaningless since you should patrol the WHOLE atmosphere....also the game mechanics do not play on your favor since you can only set ONE waypoint at a time (unless I'm missing something) and patrolling becomes a chore.

I'd rather see a "radar tech" tree in which your 'radar/network' becomes more efficient at decoding Alien transmission and detecting UFOs, while having 100% coverage (or having coverage only on countries that actually fund XCOM) on the globe....too bad this mostly defeats the purpose of intel graphs (which I use EXTREMELY sparingly).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on August 01, 2014, 02:42:40 pm
If only is abalible the short radat. The mib may do the game harder if dont detect the missions in time.

Another q. Ihave this error. Only play with your mod. When i entry in a mission
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 01, 2014, 02:51:46 pm
Well, I hear your feelings, but in all honesty SRS adds ZERO to the game...it's not that the LRS costs too much, and having percentages stack up right until the HWD (which obsoletes the radars altogether) it's STILL a bit silly....the HWD shouldl be used in ADDITION to the radar, not in substitution.

Precisely. I would like the HWD to only give you information that the radars don't, which is race and mission. The speed and size would still require a radar. (Not sure what to do about UFO type.) Or maybe the HWD wouldn't detect the UFO at all, only worked on those detected by radars?

Anyway, this would require heavy code modification, so for now it's mostly academic. :)

Thinking about it anyway, detection mechanics in XCOM need some sort of fixing to be more scalable....or maybe be substituted by a satellite network.... ::)

Manually patrolling the globe is meaningless since you should patrol the WHOLE atmosphere....also the game mechanics do not play on your favor since you can only set ONE waypoint at a time (unless I'm missing something) and patrolling becomes a chore.

Right. The satellites aren't a bad idea, though I don't know how exactly it'd work yet.

I'd rather see a "radar tech" tree in which your 'radar/network' becomes more efficient at decoding Alien transmission and detecting UFOs, while having 100% coverage (or having coverage only on countries that actually fund XCOM) on the globe....too bad this mostly defeats the purpose of intel graphs (which I use EXTREMELY sparingly).

True. Well, they do come useful now, because of the MiB. :)

If only is abalible the short radat. The mib may do the game harder if dont detect the missions in time.

Yeah, certainly... Well, you still need to mind the graphs.

Another q. Ihave this error. Only play with your mod. When i entry in a mission

Damn, you're correct - I somehow lost this map file. I'll attach it here as a hotfix.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: unaghy on August 01, 2014, 02:58:45 pm
Hi,

Im having a problem that when I do not manage to shoot down battleship on retaliation mission, then game crashes to desktop without any error message as soon as battleship reaches my base.

I tried to prepare my Ravens near the base, however battleship speed is too high (3200 knots) to catch it with more than two Ravens. I have reloaded dozen times and tried different variations without success.

I´m using only this mod pack and enjoying greatly new experience so far. Therefore I would appreciate if someone can help me out.

Save attached. Battleship will appear at 9:30 over UAE.

Thanks,
Unaghy
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on August 01, 2014, 03:03:40 pm
At the moment i dont have problems. In my game i shot down over 200 ufos. May be uodate the game to last nighlie and try again
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on August 01, 2014, 03:11:06 pm
Hi,

Im having a problem that when I do not manage to shoot down battleship on retaliation mission, then game crashes to desktop without any error message as soon as battleship reaches my base.

I tried to prepare my Ravens near the base, however battleship speed is too high (3200 knots) to catch it with more than two Ravens. I have reloaded dozen times and tried different variations without success.

I´m using only this mod pack and enjoying greatly new experience so far. Therefore I would appreciate if someone can help me out.

Save attached. Battleship will appear at 9:30 over UAE.

Thanks,
Unaghy
A work around in case you want go on until issue is solved : set the damage capacity of battleship to 100 so that you can destroy it
How to :
- exit game
- backup your OpenXcom folder (winzip or so)
- open XCom1Ruleset.rul with notepad++
- look for "ufos:" section
- go to STR_BATTLESHIP
- update damageMax from 3000 to 100
- run game and load savegame
- shoot it up
- save game and exit
- set damageMax back to 3000
- have fun
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Cineko88 on August 01, 2014, 04:47:08 pm
Hi, I have the same problem when a battleship attacks my base (I don't try shooting it down, just letting aliens enter - Polish hospitality :P). When initializing defence mission the game closes without error or warning. I've made some experiments selling out some equipment right before alien assault and the reason seems to be a problem related to smoke pellets. When I have them more than needed for loading drones I have in the attacked base (6 per scout drone), the game closes. When I haven't spare smoke pellets, base defence mission initializes perfectly. I'm not a modder so I'm not sure, but maybe the game is trying to place smoke pellets on battlescape? For now I just replenish smoke pellet stock to the needed number after every mission and I don't have any problem with base defence.

By the way it's great, challenging mod. I love the idea of longer research which makes you to develop tactics depending on what tech you get in interrogations. Thank you for your work on it. Can't wait to play new releases with loads of new balanced stuff. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 01, 2014, 06:17:11 pm
Guys, good news: there is indeed a problem with the smoke pellets, and one that can be easily fixed.

Many thanks Cineko88, without your info it'd take me who knows how long. I wouldn't know myself, because I don't normally use drones...

I'll post an updated version ASAP! Like, within an hour I hope.

EDIT: It's up on the mod page! Sorry about this, I'm trying to screen all mods I'm including, but it's just too much data. Now we have one bug less.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on August 02, 2014, 02:09:13 am
Well, as far as I can tell, small radars are pretty pointless in any given scenario - in all my experience, I've only had one for as long as it took me to build a big one, and they never came up again. I might suggest a crossbreed of radar and transmission resolver - high {total?} likelihood of detection, but with no additional information.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on August 02, 2014, 03:31:51 am
A question. How many elerium needs the plasma beam for the ships. In my game is drinking all elerium!!!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 02, 2014, 04:12:22 am
A question. How many elerium needs the plasma beam for the ships. In my game is drinking all elerium!!!

1 unit of Elerium per shot. :D

(Yes, this makes me feel good :) )
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: guille1434 on August 02, 2014, 04:24:16 am
Hello Solarius! Thanks for updating the mod!
As there were a rush of mod updates today, I would like to ask if you included in the FMP the following latests versions:

- Gauss Mod v1.5
- Terrain Missions Pack v1.9.7
- Recycled Alien Collection v1.3

Thanks again!  8)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 02, 2014, 04:27:39 am
- Gauss Mod v1.5
- Terrain Missions Pack v1.9.7
- Recycled Alien Collection v1.3

No. 1 and 3 are my mods, which belong to the FMP and will always be updated with it (actually, the FMP is updated first, because that's what I'm actually playing!). And Hobbes' work will be updated too, since I'm basically his cultist. :P
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: guille1434 on August 02, 2014, 05:15:32 am
Solarius: so, you tell me that your own two mods (gauss and Recycled Aliens) will ever be up to date.... but could you integrate the latest Terrain/Missions v1.9.7? Or will it be added in next update?

Thanks for a fabulous work!!! Your mega-mod really gives the player a totally fresh experience with X-Com!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 02, 2014, 05:58:40 am
Solarius: so, you tell me that your own two mods (gauss and Recycled Aliens) will ever be up to date.... but could you integrate the latest Terrain/Missions v1.9.7? Or will it be added in next update?

Yes, certainly. Although it'll take a while, since the FMP is in tatters now due to the development of alien hybrid project that should have been a separate mod but somehow is not. :P

Thanks for a fabulous work!!! Your mega-mod really gives the player a totally fresh experience with X-Com!

Thank you very much and rest assured this is not our last word. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on August 02, 2014, 06:13:08 am
1 unit of Elerium per shot. :D

(Yes, this makes me feel good :) )

Quick check then, are there any weapons available with a decent range to them, apart from the starting missiles?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 02, 2014, 06:17:27 am
Quick check then, are there any weapons available with a decent range to them, apart from the starting missiles?

Not really. The only new craft weapons in FMP are Alloy Cannon and Gauss Cannon, and both are short-ranged.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on August 02, 2014, 07:14:34 am
Hmm. It might be something worth looking into. I agree that vanilla plasma cannon is more than a little OP, but given that elerium is a limited resource, using it as ammo tips the scales on the opposite extreme. As it is, the game lacks a middle ground weapon - for example, an alloy railgun that has high range, but low damage and ammunition that needs to be manufactured. The resource cost for the ammo might be easier to adjust to balance the pros and cons of mainstream use than using elerium.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on August 02, 2014, 06:23:23 pm
Finally i return to avalanches missile. The cost is too high tu use plasma beams. In a month i can down over 20 ufos. Normally 5 or 6 in the first week of the month. And the weapons of short range are useless. The ships repairing needs a lot of more time
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on August 02, 2014, 08:48:15 pm
Solars, there are definitely too many items that can be manufactured in your mod !!

But now there is a feature that solves it...  :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 02, 2014, 09:28:14 pm
Too many items? Dude, you should see the Piratez mod. :D

As for the "low damage, long range" weapon, Avalanche is the way to go. I could rebalance air combat, but frankly I don't see the need. I like the fact that Plasma Beam is no longer the only choice, but it's still viable. After all you don't have to take down every single UFO, there are other ways of fighting them (like tailing them until they land, for example), or you can send four planes against one UFO.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 02, 2014, 10:09:39 pm
Too many items? Dude, you should see the Piratez mod. :D
I like the fact that Plasma Beam is no longer the only choice
And now the Avalanche Missile is.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 02, 2014, 10:28:28 pm
And now the Avalanche Missile is.

Well, it's a dynamic thing. For a time, E-115 is a problem, but then it evens out.

Nevertheless, I use mostly laser cannons.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 03, 2014, 01:01:38 am
Well, it's a dynamic thing. For a time, E-115 is a problem, but then it evens out.

Nevertheless, I use mostly laser cannons.
You mean close-range, lots of misses and slow firerate death traps?

I made my own ruleset which increased their range, and now I use them a lot more than I used to. First time I used the things my interceptor was destroyed by a terror ship  :'(
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 03, 2014, 02:55:16 am
I made my own ruleset which increased their range, and now I use them a lot more than I used to. First time I used the things my interceptor was destroyed by a terror ship  :'(

I just lost two interceptors to a single Fighter.

This is real suffering! :P

Long story short, I don't want to say it'll never change, but for now I'm enjoying the balance as it is.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: RedRedSuit on August 03, 2014, 04:10:41 am
I must have messed up somehow but...

game works great with this mod, but I've equipped a couple of new weapons (Sniper Rifle, Shotgun), and in Battlescape they look super-weird, like sort of greenish and divided into a bunch of sections.  It looks like a glitch.  Any idea what I did wrong and/or how to fix it?

Also, just ran into some sectoids, and their weapons look odd too.

Vanilla weapons look normal.

EDIT: Apparently the weirdness is only when looking, like, horizontally right along the screen.  If facing vertically down along the screen, looks fine.  This is OS X 10.8, by the way.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 03, 2014, 05:10:51 am
I must have messed up somehow but...

game works great with this mod, but I've equipped a couple of new weapons (Sniper Rifle, Shotgun), and in Battlescape they look super-weird, like sort of greenish and divided into a bunch of sections.  It looks like a glitch.  Any idea what I did wrong and/or how to fix it?

Also, just ran into some sectoids, and their weapons look odd too.

Vanilla weapons look normal.

EDIT: Apparently the weirdness is only when looking, like, horizontally right along the screen.  If facing vertically down along the screen, looks fine.  This is OS X 10.8, by the way.

So, is this a graphics problem or something with your hardware after all?

Bear in mind I've never really seen a Mac in my life, therefore... :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: RedRedSuit on August 03, 2014, 05:26:30 am
So, is this a graphics problem or something with your hardware after all?

Bear in mind I've never really seen a Mac in my life, therefore... :)

It looks like a software problem to me, either something with the mod files or OpenXcom.  I just now installed OpenXcom 1.0, applied universal patch, then applied this mod and enabled it.  Then New Battle from main menu.  Here is what heavy laser looks like when soldier looks right vs. down.

So something is wrong.  Anyone else seen this?  What could it be?

If I disable the mod, heavy laser looks normal.

UGH, SO FRUSTRATING!

EDIT: Works fine in Windows though.  :(
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on August 03, 2014, 04:57:27 pm
In options have a option i remember better sprites or similar. This adjust the sprites to resolution try enable or disable it
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Lordprotector on August 03, 2014, 06:27:59 pm
The Mod is great and i had fun to try the game with it again after a lot of years!

My beginner questions ist because after some month in game i encountered very powerful aliens and have nothing really to defend myself against them. There are mutons, Ethereal and Sectopods. I have no laser or plasma weapons against them. Only alloy improved ammunition and rocket launchers. I have researched a lot and captured a lot of aliens but now it seems the aliens are overpowered to me.

On what depends the higher aliens to appear? Research?

I have attached a savegame to show what i mean.

Help is always welcome.

kind regards,

Lordi
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: RedRedSuit on August 03, 2014, 07:32:27 pm
In options have a option i remember better sprites or similar. This adjust the sprites to resolution try enable or disable it

Unfortunately that did not fix it.

It looks like this person had exactly the same problem -- they seem to be running on Linux (also a Unix'y OS). 

https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2160.msg23182#msg23182

Could it have something to do with Unix line endings or something along those lines?  What can we do to help fix it?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 03, 2014, 10:40:48 pm
The Mod is great and i had fun to try the game with it again after a lot of years!

Yay! Good for you! :) Thanks.

My beginner questions is because after some month in game i encountered very powerful aliens and have nothing really to defend myself against them. There are mutons, Ethereal and Sectopods. I have no laser or plasma weapons against them. Only alloy improved ammunition and rocket launchers. I have researched a lot and captured a lot of aliens but now it seems the aliens are overpowered to me.

On what depends the higher aliens to appear? Research?

I have attached a savegame to show what i mean.

Help is always welcome.

kind regards,

Lordi

Oh believe me Lordi, I can emphatize... I'm in July now and fighting Mutons is such a chore.

I looked at your save and you're making good progress, actually you're doing better than me! Congratulations on researching the Stun Bomb already, this should make things a bit easier.

As for dealing with tough alien races, well, there's no simple answer. I just wouldn't go against Ethereals yet, because you can't win and it's not obligatory anyway. If there's a terror, go there and immediately take off back to base - you'll get negative points, but not as many as if you weren't there at all. Against smaller teams, just do what you think you can; after all the X-Com project won't be terminated just because you ignored a crashed Large Scout.

Now, for laser weapons, you need: laser technology (which you already have), UFO Power Source and an Engineer. This will give you Power Source Miniaturization, which will power hand-held lasers and gauss weapons.
As for the plasma/fusion research, it requires interrogating a number of Engineers, Leaders or Commanders. You need specific techs out of a longish list, so it's a bit random when you get all plasma prerequisites. Use lasers/gauss for now. :)

Last tip: build laser tanks. They're way better against Mutons than AP ammunition.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on August 03, 2014, 11:12:40 pm
What game settings do you recommend for this mod? I.e. I cannot decide on whether alien bleeding should be suppressed or not.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 03, 2014, 11:25:48 pm
What game settings do you recommend for this mod? I.e. I cannot decide on whether alien bleeding should be suppressed or not.

I use it; makes combat marginally easier, but live capture is way harder, so I think it makes the game harder overall.

I can go through options one by one, but they're mostly neutral to the FMP, so I'll only list the ones I think are relevant:

canManufactureMoreItemsPerHour: ON. Some stuff builds fast, mostly alloy clips.
alienBleeding: ON, like mentioned above. Mutons are almost impervious to small arms fire, but hitting them many times makes it possible to kill them through fatal wounds.
battleInstantGrenade: OFF. This is just lame and somewhat invalidates Grenade Launchers.
battleUFOExtenderAccuracy: ON. This is quite important, as all weapons were balanced for this (though I guess you could play vanilla accuracy, but the game will be less detailed).
showMoreStatsInInventoryView: ON. Not vital, but will be of use when dealing with some armours which modify stats.
weaponSelfDestruction: OFF. This would make your game harder and also be quite silly.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on August 04, 2014, 01:17:04 am
alienBleeding: ON, like mentioned above. Mutons are almost impervious to small arms fire, but hitting them many times makes it possible to kill them through fatal wounds.

The downside to this, however, can be that it will almost always lead to aliens who have been severely injured but stunned dying from fatal wounds. It's not something to rely on, but can be an useful situation when it comes up.

Side note, what's required for mind probe use?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 04, 2014, 01:36:43 am
The downside to this, however, can be that it will almost always lead to aliens who have been severely injured but stunned dying from fatal wounds. It's not something to rely on, but can be an useful situation when it comes up.

Yeah, it makes the game harder in this regard. I just said so in the previous post. :)

Side note, what's required for mind probe use?

Alien Neuropsychology and Alien Optical Processor. Not that much if you have some luck with the interrogations.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on August 04, 2014, 01:50:12 am
Got it. It should make it easier to pinpoint valuable targets.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on August 05, 2014, 08:09:04 pm
One more question - is the tech tree diagram in the OP still valid, or has the mod changed any of it?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 05, 2014, 08:29:12 pm
One more question - is the tech tree diagram in the OP still valid, or has the mod changed any of it?

It's completely outdated. :P

I'll make a new one... When I can...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on August 05, 2014, 08:44:14 pm
Cool. Actually, is there some kind of viewer I can use in the meantime? I could probably knock a diagram together if that's the case.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 05, 2014, 08:47:57 pm
Cool. Actually, is there some kind of viewer I can use in the meantime? I could probably knock a diagram together if that's the case.

The agreed upon software for this would be Dia. It's not perfect, but it does its job, it's freeware, besides I don't know of anything better or even as good.

It would be cool if someone else did the diagram, the FMP team would really appreciate this. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on August 05, 2014, 09:14:40 pm
Ohhh. I mean the viewer for the tech tree code. Or, so as not to derail further, is there a thread that goes in depth about that aspect of modding?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 05, 2014, 09:25:29 pm
Ohhh. I mean the viewer for the tech tree code. Or, so as not to derail further, is there a thread that goes in depth about that aspect of modding?

(https://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa43/SolariusScorch/Memes%20and%20reaction%20faces/techtreecode.jpg)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on August 05, 2014, 09:29:46 pm
Hurpadurp.

Which file is it stored in?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 05, 2014, 09:37:23 pm
Hurpadurp.

Which file is it stored in?

I think you should start learning by analysing something smaller and less complex than the FMP... Like, pretty much any other mod. Like something that just adds some weapons.

First read this: https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Ruleset_Reference_%28OpenXcom%29 :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on August 05, 2014, 10:06:46 pm
@Solars
I used your idea of Grav Module (as I did with most of FMP ideas ! :P)

I share what I implemented then starting from that* :
- I added also "Armor Conversion" (to make a flying armors from non flying armors + consuming grav modules)
- I added "Gravity Generator" (from Alien Gravity Generator + Grav Module researches), that is for Hovertanks what is Grav Module for armors
- I also added "Hovertank conversion" to make hovertanks from tanks (consuming Gravity Generator)

* : This has more sense in my mod as I heavily decrease all selling costs, also conversion and recycling are a necessity
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 06, 2014, 12:23:30 am
@Solars
I used your idea of Grav Module (as I did with most of FMP ideas ! :P)

Of course! Making mods is like writing RPG adventures: it's the art of stealing. :) (With emphasis on art.)

- I added also "Armor Conversion" (to make a flying armors from non flying armors + consuming grav modules)

Yes, I thought about it too, but ultimately decided that the differences between these armours' construction run too deep to convert one into another. It's debatable though.

- I added "Gravity Generator" (from Alien Gravity Generator + Grav Module researches), that is for Hovertanks what is Grav Module for armors

What I did was that "UFO Construction", which needed to build hovertanks, has "Alien Gravity Generator" in its prerequisites.

Since there is no difference between alien gravity generator and X-Com gravity generator, I've decided to skip the extra step. A GG is a GG.

- I also added "Hovertank conversion" to make hovertanks from tanks (consuming Gravity Generator)

Uh... How? O_o

That's like taking a rowing boat, putting tracks on it and calling it a tank. Can be done if you're really determined, but that's not how you build tanks. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 06, 2014, 12:26:18 am
Uh... How? O_o

That's like taking a rowing boat, putting tracks on it and calling it a tank. Can be done if you're really determined, but that's not how you build tanks. :)
I'd imagine it's more or less taking the turret and slapping it onto a hovertank chassis. But that's all I can say for this.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on August 06, 2014, 01:13:47 am
@Solars:

In FMP, I can see for example under "research:" topic
Code: [Select]
- name: STR_TRACTOR_BEAM_GENERATOR
    cost: 100
    points: 25
    needItem: true

I wonder about this "needitem: true", as there does not exist any item of same name

Does it work well ?

As it is given via getOneFree, I should have defined it without needItem neither requires/dependencies but with cost 0
Eventually as STR_TRACTOR_BEAM_GENERATOR_DEP, then a second research STR_TRACTOR_BEAM_GENERATOR with STR_TRACTOR_BEAM_GENERATOR_DEP as dependency
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on August 06, 2014, 01:18:48 am
instead of needitem true a dependencies : [STR_ALINE_ONLY] would be better/less confusing
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 06, 2014, 01:20:12 am
@Solars:

In FMP, I can see for example under "research:" topic
Code: [Select]
- name: STR_TRACTOR_BEAM_GENERATOR
    cost: 100
    points: 25
    needItem: true

I wonder about this "needitem: true", as there does not exist any item of same name

Does it work well ?

As it is given via getOneFree, I should have defined it without needItem neither requires/dependencies but with cost 0
Eventually as STR_TRACTOR_BEAM_GENERATOR_DEP, then a second research STR_TRACTOR_BEAM_GENERATOR with STR_TRACTOR_BEAM_GENERATOR_DEP as dependency


Yes, the needItem: true is necessary. Otherwise you would be able to research it on your own, since the very start of the game, while the intention is to be only available from alien interrogation.

In other words, this item is unresearchable, unless you bypass its prerequisites by getOneFree from alien interrogation. This mechanism is used in the original ruleset, too - for example, for alien missions:

Code: [Select]
  - name: STR_ALIEN_RESEARCH
    points: 50
    needItem: true
  - name: STR_ALIEN_HARVEST
    points: 50
    needItem: true
  - name: STR_ALIEN_ABDUCTION
    points: 50
    needItem: true
  - name: STR_ALIEN_INFILTRATION
    points: 50
    needItem: true
  - name: STR_ALIEN_BASE
    points: 50
    needItem: true
  - name: STR_ALIEN_TERROR
    points: 50
    needItem: true
  - name: STR_ALIEN_RETALIATION
    points: 50
    needItem: true
  - name: STR_ALIEN_SUPPLY
    points: 50
    needItem: true

Or for UFOs:

Code: [Select]
  - name: STR_SMALL_SCOUT
    points: 50
    needItem: true
  - name: STR_MEDIUM_SCOUT
    points: 50
    needItem: true
  - name: STR_LARGE_SCOUT
    points: 50
    needItem: true
  - name: STR_HARVESTER
    points: 50
    needItem: true
  - name: STR_ABDUCTOR
    points: 50
    needItem: true
  - name: STR_TERROR_SHIP
    points: 50
    needItem: true
  - name: STR_BATTLESHIP
    points: 50
    needItem: true
  - name: STR_SUPPLY_SHIP
    points: 50
    needItem: true

instead of needitem true a dependencies : [STR_ALINE_ONLY] would be better/less confusing

I don't know what it is, I've never seen it before, this is way more confusing to me. :P
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on August 06, 2014, 01:28:28 am
Yes, the needItem: true is necessary. Otherwise you would be able to research it on your own, since the very start of the game, while the intention is to be only available from alien interrogation.

In other words, this item is unresearchable, unless you bypass its prerequisites by getOneFree from alien interrogation. This mechanism is used in the original ruleset, too - for example, for alien missions:

Right !
I'm quite sure I already asked you, I just forgot it... I will add a comment for next time my brain boils
Thanks

instead of needitem true a dependencies : [STR_ALIEN_ONLY] would be better/less confusing
or perhaps dependencies : [STR_UNLOCKED_BY_GETONEFREE]
Even dependencies : [UNLOCKED_BY_GETONEFREE]
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on August 06, 2014, 05:59:31 am
If the item is unresearchable by direct means, there's no need to put the research cost in the ruleset. One line less :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on August 06, 2014, 10:47:11 am
If the item is unresearchable by direct means, there's no need to put the research cost in the ruleset. One line less :)
But points could not be set to zero, right ?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 06, 2014, 12:57:33 pm
But points could not be set to zero, right ?

Sure they can, many projects in the vanilla have cost 0. That means they're researched as soon as you get the prerequisites, with no research project involved.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on August 06, 2014, 02:22:25 pm
Sure they can, many projects in the vanilla have cost 0. That means they're researched as soon as you get the prerequisites, with no research project involved.
I was speaking of points

Have a look in your FMP at line 14231, some _ are missing
Code: [Select]
  - name: STR_SMALL_LAUNCHER
    cost: 550
    points: 30
    needItem: true
    dependencies:
      - ALIEN GRAVITY GENERATOR
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on August 06, 2014, 06:40:14 pm
The agreed upon software for this would be Dia. It's not perfect, but it does its job, it's freeware, besides I don't know of anything better or even as good.

It would be cool if someone else did the diagram, the FMP team would really appreciate this. :)
dia would be way not useful for FMP :)
i use https://gephi.github.io/ to work with bigger graphs
the vanilla+FMP connection-network has 600 nodes and 1900 connections (after removing all elements that are not connected)
i attached the image1 as a legend
2 pdf files one with all connections and one "only" with research
its obviuos such a tree is difficult to read
if i would have to do it would do it in gephi itself because there is some nice functionality so you can see what connections are where (image2-detail)
and last but not least the gephi file itself
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 06, 2014, 07:34:51 pm
I was speaking of points

Lol, OK. Sorry about this.

Have a look in your FMP at line 14231, some _ are missing
Code: [Select]
  - name: STR_SMALL_LAUNCHER
    cost: 550
    points: 30
    needItem: true
    dependencies:
      - ALIEN GRAVITY GENERATOR

Well, f*ck. Sorry again, I'll fix it ASAP.

And Falko, this looks amazing.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on August 06, 2014, 09:58:22 pm
dia would be way not useful for FMP :)
i use https://gephi.github.io/ to work with bigger graphs
the vanilla+FMP connection-network has 600 nodes and 1900 connections (after removing all elements that are not connected)
i attached the image1 as a legend
2 pdf files one with all connections and one "only" with research
its obviuos such a tree is difficult to read
if i would have to do it would do it in gephi itself because there is some nice functionality so you can see what connections are where (image2-detail)
and last but not least the gephi file itself
Madre de dios XD

Guitaaaa con los researchs
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Aldorn on August 07, 2014, 01:52:53 am
dia would be way not useful for FMP :)
i use https://gephi.github.io/ to work with bigger graphs
the vanilla+FMP connection-network has 600 nodes and 1900 connections (after removing all elements that are not connected)
i attached the image1 as a legend
2 pdf files one with all connections and one "only" with research
its obviuos such a tree is difficult to read
if i would have to do it would do it in gephi itself because there is some nice functionality so you can see what connections are where (image2-detail)
and last but not least the gephi file itself

Or in Excel, Visio, ... and manually
But it's right that it's difficult given that there are many requires, needitem, dependencies, getOneFree, unlocks, ...
It's a chinese puzzle

This below is absolutely not the FMP, and it's just to help me building global tech tree. Sure it is no enough...

The tool you used at beginning of FMP seemed interesting
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: gerv on August 07, 2014, 04:20:50 am
I'm afraid FMP does not work on case-sensitive filesystems. There are several files which are referenced in the ruleset using a different case to the one used for the file in the filesystem. So OpenXcom refuses to start.

Attached is a patch to fix it; one could, of course, rename the files instead.

Gerv
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: gerv on August 07, 2014, 05:18:19 am
Also:

mv TERRAIN/ufoL83.PCK TERRAIN/UFOL83.PCK

This caused a crash on going to Battlescape. Perhaps it would be a good idea to check the case on all the files? I did an automated check on the paths in the ruleset, and my patch fixes all those. But it seems some files are not referenced so obviously.

Gerv
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Nerevarine64 on August 07, 2014, 07:43:19 am
I have a slight problem
After researching Dart Rifles, I started manufacturing 14 of them but canceled it at 13 since I didn't actually want a full set, and I cannot manufacture anything else after canceling.

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Nerevarine64 on August 07, 2014, 08:35:38 am
I have a slight problem
After researching Dart Rifles, I started manufacturing 14 of them but canceled it at 13 since I didn't actually want a full set, and I cannot manufacture anything else after canceling.

Holy shit I'm retarded, I didn't have enough money to start the manufacturing so it didn't go into the next screen. I have a pretty good grasp on the save file code now at least.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 07, 2014, 11:16:22 pm
I'm afraid FMP does not work on case-sensitive filesystems.

Many thanks. I am aware of the problem, but it's not always easy to catch all the bugs, even with tools. Your list will make things much easier.

Holy shit I'm retarded, I didn't have enough money to start the manufacturing so it didn't go into the next screen. I have a pretty good grasp on the save file code now at least.

Good :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: gerv on August 08, 2014, 12:33:52 am
Also, the cute little single-square smoke-firing HWP looks like it's going nuts and rotating rapidly on the spot when it drives. I assume there's some mistake with the graphics, like referencing the wrong one or something?

Gerv
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 08, 2014, 12:51:27 am
Also, the cute little single-square smoke-firing HWP looks like it's going nuts and rotating rapidly on the spot when it drives. I assume there's some mistake with the graphics, like referencing the wrong one or something?

I can't confirm anything like this, it drives normally for me.

I guess yours has just a really funky AI. :) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-boying)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Arthanor on August 08, 2014, 01:07:55 am
Also, the cute little single-square smoke-firing HWP looks like it's going nuts and rotating rapidly on the spot when it drives. I assume there's some mistake with the graphics, like referencing the wrong one or something?

Gerv
Since you already mentioned being on a case sensitive OS, are you using Linux by any chance? If the sprites for the scout vehicle are split into many files in a folder, the Linux OpenXCom does not access the right ones. It can cause issues with weapon mods, new aliens and most likely little robots too..
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 08, 2014, 01:18:45 am
Since you already mentioned being on a case sensitive OS, are you using Linux by any chance? If the sprites for the scout vehicle are split into many files in a folder, the Linux OpenXCom does not access the right ones. It can cause issues with weapon mods, new aliens and most likely little robots too..

Aaaah, that would be it. I should have thought about it myself.

The reason I didn't was because I thought I moved everything to sheets long ago... But I missed the drone.

Oh well, it'll be fixed in the next version.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Arthanor on August 08, 2014, 01:46:35 am
This sprite issue is tricky. It works for everyone except (the few) Linux users, so when we have an issue everyone is like: "Works for me! You must be doing something wrong :P"

The more of us who know, the more likely we are to think of it :D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: guille1434 on August 08, 2014, 03:54:02 am
I just want to report a little bug: In the ruleset file of the Final Mod Pack, in the Ufopaedia entry for the Autocannon AA Clip, the section line (number 12768) says: "WEAPON AND EQUIPMENT"... this causes that the AC_AA_Clip to appear in the game ufopaedia. As I see that all other Alien Alloy ammo clips are not shown as individual entries of the ufopaedia, I think that this would be a little mistake. In consequence, I believe that the line in question shoud read "section: STR_NOT_AVAILABLE".
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 08, 2014, 03:59:43 am
I just want to report a little bug: In the ruleset file of the Final Mod Pack, in the Ufopaedia entry for the Autocannon AA Clip, the section line (number 12768) says: "WEAPON AND EQUIPMENT"... this causes that the AC_AA_Clip to appear in the game ufopaedia. As I see that all other Alien Alloy ammo clips are not shown as individual entries of the ufopaedia, I think that this would be a little mistake. In consequence, I believe that the line in question shoud read "section: STR_NOT_AVAILABLE".

It's actually intentional. The game only shows up to 3 clips per weapon, so if I added a 4th one to the Auto-Cannon, it would be invisible. That's why I made a new Ufopaedia article.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: guille1434 on August 08, 2014, 06:24:00 am
Yes, you are right... The fourth ammo type will not show in the Auto Cannon page... Sorry! :-)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: gerv on August 08, 2014, 09:29:43 am
Slightly off the precise topic, but: how does one install an updated version? Just unzip it on top again?

It would be awesome if OpenXcom had a mod system where mods could be placed in a self-contained folder, and a file defined whether any of the files therein replaced files from the base system. That would make adding and removing (and upgrading) mods much more of a simple process.

Gerv
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: gerv on August 08, 2014, 11:11:24 am
Also, given that this mod is quite complicated and very awesome, would it be heretical to suggest source control and a proper bug tracker, rather than an eternal forum thread? :-)

Gerv
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 08, 2014, 04:30:14 pm
Slightly off the precise topic, but: how does one install an updated version? Just unzip it on top again?

Yeah, that will do it, though it's best to remove the old files first to ensure there are no remains clogging up your disc space.

It would be awesome if OpenXcom had a mod system where mods could be placed in a self-contained folder, and a file defined whether any of the files therein replaced files from the base system. That would make adding and removing (and upgrading) mods much more of a simple process.

This may happen with the upcoming revamped mod engine. I don't know how exactly it'll work yet.

Also, given that this mod is quite complicated and very awesome, would it be heretical to suggest source control and a proper bug tracker, rather than an eternal forum thread? :-)

I'll think about it, but frankly I don't know how to go about that at this point. :)



And now, for something completely different: I would also like to know if you like the Alloy Skyranger as it is, or should I rather substitute it with one of Aldorn's latest designs? https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2706.msg29153#msg29153
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on August 08, 2014, 06:16:08 pm
To be honest, I like the Skyranger's layout more. Maybe I'm simply more used to the Skyranger but the limited field of view from out of the Alloy Skyranger  is something I'm still uncomfortable with.

However, the thing that bugs me most is its name. It doesn't fit into the CRAFT column in the armor selection window and makes the whole row ugly. Truth is, I've actually shortened it in my copy of the mod.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on August 08, 2014, 06:17:44 pm
I am partial to side doors - the ramp shooting gallery has been one of my pet peeves with UFO {as opposed to TFTD}, so I'd be in favor of those.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: BTLtu on August 08, 2014, 08:33:53 pm
Hey, i can't get Alien weaponry technology research project, so no plasmas and fussion. In the picture provided in the first page of this thread says that Alien weaponry technology research should be available after any alien interrogation.

Any help would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: gerv on August 08, 2014, 10:26:27 pm
Yeah, that will do it, though it's best to remove the old files first to ensure there are no remains clogging up your disc space.

But that's the thing - how do I know which files are from the mod? (This is what I mean about using self-contained directories.)

I'll think about it, but frankly I don't know how to go about that at this point. :)

Github is fairly easy to use. If you need some help, I'd be glad to provide it.

Gerv
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 09, 2014, 12:24:24 am
But that's the thing - how do I know which files are from the mod? (This is what I mean about using self-contained directories.)

Just go to Resources and delete the FinalModPack folder.

The ruleset file will be overwritten anyway, and maps/terrains... well, I don't know which are functional myself. :P (Probably some aren't.)

Github is fairly easy to use. If you need some help, I'd be glad to provide it.

I'll probably take you up on this offer. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Lordprotector on August 09, 2014, 03:21:07 pm
Yay! Good for you! :) Thanks.

Oh believe me Lordi, I can emphatize... I'm in July now and fighting Mutons is such a chore.

I looked at your save and you're making good progress, actually you're doing better than me! Congratulations on researching the Stun Bomb already, this should make things a bit easier.

As for dealing with tough alien races, well, there's no simple answer. I just wouldn't go against Ethereals yet, because you can't win and it's not obligatory anyway. If there's a terror, go there and immediately take off back to base - you'll get negative points, but not as many as if you weren't there at all. Against smaller teams, just do what you think you can; after all the X-Com project won't be terminated just because you ignored a crashed Large Scout.

Now, for laser weapons, you need: laser technology (which you already have), UFO Power Source and an Engineer. This will give you Power Source Miniaturization, which will power hand-held lasers and gauss weapons.
As for the plasma/fusion research, it requires interrogating a number of Engineers, Leaders or Commanders. You need specific techs out of a longish list, so it's a bit random when you get all plasma prerequisites. Use lasers/gauss for now. :)

Last tip: build laser tanks. They're way better against Mutons than AP ammunition.

Thank you for your reply. Good to know i'm not the only one fighting a hard game with the modifications used. But i'm enjoying it very much. Now i have Gauss weapons and tanks and they are a lot better against the Mutons than the alloy or normal weapons. :-)

Thank you for your tips. Please keep on your good work!

kind regards

Lordi
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 10, 2014, 02:23:48 am
You're welcome. :)

Now, version 0.8 is up! There's actually quite a bit new stuff, but mainly:


Since I did a lot of rebalancing and added some significant new content, your feedback is even more appreciated than usual!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 10, 2014, 03:51:15 am
  • Lasers require Elerium now to produce. Hate on! :P
Looks like I'm not using FMP for my next playthrough.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on August 10, 2014, 04:09:12 am
Well, you can always alter the ruleset.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Gifty on August 10, 2014, 07:32:23 am
I think it's a great idea. It fixes so many things.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 10, 2014, 11:28:23 am
What's the problem with this? I always have thousands of units of Elerium spread through all my bases. It gets less cluttered when Plasma Cannon enters the scene, but I think there's still far too much Elerium.

Besides, you can use Gauss weapons.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on August 10, 2014, 03:56:04 pm
More elrium.arrrgh i need a spacecontract with aliens to fight with others aliens. Or minning the moon in the future XD
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Arthanor on August 10, 2014, 04:21:34 pm
I depends where you want to position laser weapons. In the FMP, you have gauss weapons as well, so increasing the requirements for lasers might be reasonable. It just depends on what you want achieve. In the XCom Armoury Expanded, I chose to increase the laser and plasma requirements too. Overall, it nets me more time playing with rifles, removes the absurdity of lasers being developed by ~20 researchers in a few weeks (If it were that easy, arms manufacturers the world over would already by selling them), and makes plasma into a more endgame weapon.

If you consider gauss and lasers to be early game alternatives to each others, adding Elerium (and alloy?) to it is a bit harsh. If you want to promote the progression from conventional to gauss to lasers to plasma, that might work well.

I did not look at the ruleset, but making plasma research depend on Elerium, and requiring one/a few eleriums per weapon could make sense if lasers are intended to be an "late midgame/early endgame" weapon. Requiring elerium for power clips.. What's the point of lasers then if they are as demanding to produce but weaker than plasma? I guess easier access in your research tree, but it's nice if the weakness and ease of access also comes with ease of manufacturing.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: yrizoud on August 10, 2014, 05:07:35 pm
Elerium lasers : In vanilla, I have had some playthroughs were I was unlucky with detection and crashes, and couldn't capture an intact UFO power source (and thus Elerium) until my tenth or twelth battle, in February or March.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Arthanor on August 10, 2014, 05:32:01 pm
In the FMP, you have alloy ammo and gauss weapons to hold you up until you find elerium. I think that kind of delay is not unreasonable, if lasers require something like 1-2 elerium per weapon, 0 for clips. Then even getting one power source is enough to outfit your squad and it is one more reason to try to assault landed UFOs instead of making them crash.

1 elerium per clip, as I said above, would conflict with plasma and seems like a really harsh thing to do to lasers.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 10, 2014, 06:34:20 pm
What's the problem with this? I always have thousands of units of Elerium spread through all my bases. It gets less cluttered when Plasma Cannon enters the scene, but I think there's still far too much Elerium.

Besides, you can you Gauss weapons.
You say that like for the past two playthroughs I didn't capture an Alien Power Source intact until August. Listen, not all of us know the secret to acquiring everything you need on your second UFO. It would take me in game months before I could acquire anything of value which would move my game forward. That's why I don't like the idea of all this Elerium being tossed around and used in every goddamned mod now. I would be stuck on alloy ammo for a long time, and that doesn't seem appealing to me in July.

Canonly, even in XCOM 2012, lasers needed nothing more than Alien Alloys/Nothing at all. I can deal with Alien Alloys being tossed around to produce lasers, that is a good balance that I've gotten used to with XCOM 2012. In fact, the first time I played UFO, I was surprised at how fast I got the laser weapons.

But Elerium Laser weapons? It just seems like you are trying too hard to make everything longer, more drawn out, and harder with Final Mod Pack. I generally see no point in using laser weapons now. I'd rather just skip them if possible and head straight to plasma in that case. I'd stick to Gauss Weapons if I had to until I got plasma. Would be a lot cheaper than producing Laser weapons, since I'd already have stocks upon stocks of plasma weapons.

My true feedback? Alloys for Laser Weapons. That's it. Want Elerium Laser weapons? Put Roxis's Elerium Laser Weapons mod into FMP.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Arthanor on August 10, 2014, 07:12:36 pm
That sounds a bit harsh. I fully agree with Solarius on making the game longer. I also think that making lasers dependent on some alien tech makes sense.

I like using alien alloys more. In a normal playthrough, you don't know what to do with all you get from UFOs, since you only really use it to make armors and then a few UFO based crafts. I like the idea of evolving limited resources:

1- Early game: Money
2- Midgame: Alloy (easier to get, need it for armor, ammo, lasers and the first craft upgrades)
2- Endgame: Elerium (for plasma, power/flying suits and as fuel)

While money restricts you, you build up a reserve of alloys, through which you go quickly when you get to the midgame and money is no longer an issue. Then you go through a period of alloy limitation while hopefully building up an elerium stash. Enters endgame, you've made what you needed with the alloys and go through your stash of elerium while hopefully getting enough to keep going.

It feels very rewarding as a player to get to the next stage: suddenly your workshop churns out all this new stuff and you can experience the sudden increase in power. Over time, the aliens become more challenging again and, hopefully, just as it gets rough you break through the next stage, etc.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 10, 2014, 07:26:32 pm
That sounds a bit harsh. I fully agree with Solarius on making the game longer.
I'm just saying he's trying too hard now to accomplish this.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Arthanor on August 10, 2014, 08:20:02 pm
While I agree with the aim, I can't comment on the implementation in this case as I don't play with the FMP.

I would agree with you that it has to be done in a way that's enjoyable. The game should be fun for longer, not just longer, and that's why I was suggesting ways in which I think it might be possible. (I am looking into something very similar for my mod).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on August 10, 2014, 08:22:56 pm
I'm just saying he's trying too hard now to accomplish this.

I think the requirement to have elerium research for laser weaponry makes sense as it seems daft to unlock guass and laser weaponry at same time!

I think it is now at the point it is very well balanced out allowing to make use of all resources and wide range of weaponry available throughout as months go on. I do not think it should now be more complicated and longer

The vanilla game made it too easy to skip all of the weapons but go to plasma weapons which kinda acts a shortcut for everything.

I still feel that you cannot really compare xcom 2012 as they are both completely different games which happens to have the name "xcom"
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 10, 2014, 08:49:30 pm
I think the requirement to have elerium research for laser weaponry makes sense as it seems daft to unlock guass and laser weaponry at same time!

But this doesn't change the fact that now Laser Weapons are more expensive than before. This makes them on par with Plasma weapons, even though they are weaker, making them less cost-effective for what they are worth. It would probably be easier to research them but not produce them in order to get to Plasma weapons and stick to the cheaper Gauss weapons.

I think it is now at the point it is very well balanced out allowing to make use of all resources and wide range of weaponry available throughout as months go on. I do not think it should now be more complicated and longer

Yes using all the resources but more resources = more expense. Like I had said above, this makes lasers much more expensive without a damage boost or anything of the like. Gauss weapons would be cheaper to manufacture, and I would much rather have those than Lasers when heading for Plasma weapons.

The vanilla game made it too easy to skip all of the weapons but go to plasma weapons which kinda acts a shortcut for everything.
Final mod Pack negates this by adding hell of a lot more research options. Took me a few ingame months to get laser weapons.

I still feel that you cannot really compare xcom 2012 as they are both completely different games which happens to have the name "xcom"
I do not see why you make this claim, but do as you wish. I believe it would be more balanced were Laser Weapons to use Alien Alloys instead of Elerium.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: gerv on August 10, 2014, 09:45:04 pm
Solaris Scorch: ping me an email at gerv at gerv dot net if you want to chat about getting the FInal Mod Pack into source control. I promise you, it will both make development easier, and allow more people to contribute.

One piece of feedback, although I've only really played a little bit - there are far too many starting weapons. It looks like you took every mod and threw the kitchen sink in there. It leads to player bewilderment. I'd reduce it a bit.

Also, did you make the cyberdisks extra tough? I got a Sectoid terror ship and got wiped out single-handedly by two of them...

Gerv
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Yankes on August 10, 2014, 10:03:10 pm
Solaris Scorch: ping me an email at gerv at gerv dot net if you want to chat about getting the FInal Mod Pack into source control. I promise you, it will both make development easier, and allow more people to contribute.
First of all, this will increase quality of mod. I catch many bugs in my code when I take last look on changes I was committing. This is mainly because you can see changes highlighted. Many source control can show changes in graphic files too, this can be handily in this case too.

I suggest git & GitHub for source control tool.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on August 10, 2014, 10:23:28 pm

  • Added a new craft weapon called Stormlance Missile. Think Stingray that's stronger than Avalanche, based on fusion explosives. This was introduced to make craft weapon choice a bit more varied. (A new picture will probably be added, for now it's using the Stingray.)


I cannot see craft launchers for the stormlance missile, yet i can only purchase the missiles itself?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 10, 2014, 11:47:30 pm
If you consider gauss and lasers to be early game alternatives to each others, adding Elerium (and alloy?) to it is a bit harsh. If you want to promote the progression from conventional to gauss to lasers to plasma, that might work well.

That's exactly how it is! Lasers are definitely mid-game weapons, unless you get some from the Men in Black earlier - but you can't reproduce them anyway, so it's not really related.

Elerium lasers : In vanilla, I have had some playthroughs were I was unlucky with detection and crashes, and couldn't capture an intact UFO power source (and thus Elerium) until my tenth or twelth battle, in February or March.

In FMP, it's extremely unlikely to get lasers that early. In my current game I got them in the second half of the year. My playstyle was not really optimized, since I cared more about going forwards quickly than doing everything perfectly, but still you need at least several months to collect all prerequisites to lasers; I think July would be reasonable.

In the FMP, you have alloy ammo and gauss weapons to hold you up until you find elerium. I think that kind of delay is not unreasonable, if lasers require something like 1-2 elerium per weapon, 0 for clips. Then even getting one power source is enough to outfit your squad and it is one more reason to try to assault landed UFOs instead of making them crash.

Well, clips require Elerium too, but it's only 1 unit per clip. By the time you can make them, you'll probably have much more Elerium than you need at that point.

Or, from a different perspective: 1 Elerium is 1 Plasma Beam shot. Considering you can make a whole clip from this amount, or later an eternally charged weapon, I don't think it's too harsh. Come on, how many Laser Rifles do you need, 15? I think you'll likely need 25 advanced laser weapons in total, unless you have a gigantic force or lose them often.

1 elerium per clip, as I said above, would conflict with plasma and seems like a really harsh thing to do to lasers.

But plasmas are normally acquired months later. Besides, who's even producing plasma clips, when you have immeasurable amounts of them stored? :)

You say that like for the past two playthroughs I didn't capture an Alien Power Source intact until August. Listen, not all of us know the secret to acquiring everything you need on your second UFO. It would take me in game months before I could acquire anything of value which would move my game forward. That's why I don't like the idea of all this Elerium being tossed around and used in every goddamned mod now. I would be stuck on alloy ammo for a long time, and that doesn't seem appealing to me in July.

No Elerium until August? Come on man, you're pulling my leg here. As I said, I'm not playing very well, but I still have thousand of units! I mean, a UFO Power Source in a downed UFO has only 75% chance of exploding, and you probably get at least 10 ships per month, and some of them with multiple Power Sources. I think getting Elerium is not hard at all, and not just because I'm such a pro (because I'm not); it's pure statistics.

Canonly, even in XCOM 2012, lasers needed nothing more than Alien Alloys/Nothing at all. I can deal with Alien Alloys being tossed around to produce lasers, that is a good balance that I've gotten used to with XCOM 2012. In fact, the first time I played UFO, I was surprised at how fast I got the laser weapons.

Hmm... I never really considered this particular detail to matter at all. I added the Elerium requirement for logic only, not for balancing, because it seemed insubstantial to me. I just thought it's weird that you need to research UFO Power Source to get to a tech that doesn't use this technology at all. Frankly, I never expected anyone to care.

But Elerium Laser weapons? It just seems like you are trying too hard to make everything longer, more drawn out, and harder with Final Mod Pack.

That's the general idea, though finding the sweet spot between "too quick" and "too long" is hard... :P That particular issue concerns many decisions, not just lasers. As I mentioned before, I didn't think this change to lasers was meaningful in any way, considering how abundant Elerium seems to be in my opinion. But I guess I need more opinions. :)

I generally see no point in using laser weapons now. I'd rather just skip them if possible and head straight to plasma in that case.

I'd stick to Gauss Weapons if I had to until I got plasma. Would be a lot cheaper than producing Laser weapons, since I'd already have stocks upon stocks of plasma weapons.

My true feedback? Alloys for Laser Weapons. That's it. Want Elerium Laser weapons? Put Roxis's Elerium Laser Weapons mod into FMP.

I don't really know this mod, so I'll refrain from commenting. :)

I have no problem with lasers requiring Alien Alloys, this can be justified. But to be honest, I keep finding myself having trouble with getting enough Alloys rather than Elerium. :P Fortunately, you can produce them.

I'm just saying he's trying too hard now to accomplish this.

I should explain further: I'm not really trying to make the game longer for its own sake, I'm trying to give all stages of weapons some time. I never liked the fact that your basic rifles and other firearms get obsolete after a month, because it makes them pointless. So now we have the following stages:

1) Firearms (normal ammo, then alloy ammo) - around 6 months
2) Lasers/Gauss weapons - around 4 months
3) Plasma - later

Of course some weapons retain their usability after their age has ended, but that's beside the point.

Nevertheless, I treat such feedback very seriously and may actually back off from the Elerium in lasers. But it really puzzled me; of all things that were controversial, of so many instances of making the game harder, this one get attention? I never thought it would...

But this doesn't change the fact that now Laser Weapons are more expensive than before. This makes them on par with Plasma weapons, even though they are weaker, making them less cost-effective for what they are worth.

Yes, of course they're less effective, resource-wise. However, they come much earlier. And you can't really fight large Muton crews with rifles, so they're helpful in getting to plasmas, which is likely another few months unless you capture and interrogate Engineers like crazy.

It would probably be easier to research them but not produce them in order to get to Plasma weapons and stick to the cheaper Gauss weapons.

Well, you don't have to research lasers to get anything else... So if you don't like them, you can just ignore them. That's why the mod has alternative paths: Gauss weapons which are stronger and cheaper to produce, but doing AP damage, and lasers which do Laser type damage (which is better due to alien resistances) and which at some point get unlimited shots, but are weaker and less accurate 9that last thing is a vanilla thing).

Solaris Scorch: ping me an email at gerv at gerv dot net if you want to chat about getting the FInal Mod Pack into source control. I promise you, it will both make development easier, and allow more people to contribute.

OK, I'll contact you, thanks :)

One piece of feedback, although I've only really played a little bit - there are far too many starting weapons. It looks like you took every mod and threw the kitchen sink in there. It leads to player bewilderment. I'd reduce it a bit.

Oh believe me, everything was carefully selected and most content was unused. :P I can understand the list is a bit long though... Still, every single weapons has a different tactical role, so I wouldn't know which one can be removed. :)

Also, did you make the cyberdisks extra tough? I got a Sectoid terror ship and got wiped out single-handedly by two of them...

Nope, I changed nothing vanilla except the two starting tanks. They're just that badass. (I personally think the best way to deal with them in early game is the flamethrower, if you can get close enough.)

I cannot see craft launchers for the stormlance missile, yet i can only purchase the missiles itself?

Well, shit. I forgot to disable the buying option for them. (They should only be manufacturable by you.) I'll post a fixed version soon.

To sum up this very long post, I am confused about the entire Elerium lasers issue... I mean, how much will you spend all laser stuff you're ever make, 50 units? Maybe 100 if you build insane amounts of clips and laser tanks... But I need more feedback regarding this. Can you tell me the month you get the lasers (both normal and improved) and how much Elerium you have at that point?

EDIT: I'll just add that the best source of Elerium are alien bases. You get a lot for something you should be doing anyway. :P
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on August 11, 2014, 12:15:49 am
Seriously guys, playing vanilla, by July/August I am starting to sell Elerium because I have far more of it than I'll ever need. If you're not securing 150+ Elerium from downed UFOs monthly, you're doing something wrong. Not even mentioning Alien Bases and landed Battleship hunts (each worth 200 Elerium - enough to build 200 clips, far more than needed before unlimited-ammo lasers arrive).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Arthanor on August 11, 2014, 12:21:12 am
I can't comment on the FMP specifically, but unless you changed something, 10 UFOs/month is more than I encounter in the first 6 months.

When you have limited radar coverage, it is hard to get the ones far from your base(s).. In fact, in my latest game, I'm in March, having encountered 10 UFOs.. and I'm at 150 Elerium. Which I guess is enough to outfit the squad with elerium requiring lasers, but depending on when other things come (ex.: flying/power suits at 16 each), it will get short really fast. I know those probably come much later in the FMP, but still, I can't say I've ever had a game where Elerium wasn't in short supply. Your experience of having more than you know what to do with surprises me (and seems to point at something basic I do wrong, since Dioxine concurs).

Making an eternally charged weapon for 1 elerium is fine, making laser clips require 1 each seems like a big expense in mid-game. Especially since, unlike plasmas, you can't scavenge those clips from aliens.

The XCom cannon issue is an entirely different thing too, but it seems to support no elerium (or only as a focusing element), instead of using it as an energy source.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 11, 2014, 12:29:58 am
How does everyone get so much elerium?

I never once get any landed battleships. I shoot down every UFO and I rarely, if ever get a Power Source. It takes me a long ass time to get any kind of Elerium.

And for some reason, Alien Bases never appear for me. Probably because I shoot every UFO I see down and don't let them build them during the early game, but come on aliens. Throw me a bone here. You're giving everyone tonnes of elerium.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 11, 2014, 12:42:54 am
I can't comment on the FMP specifically, but unless you changed something, 10 UFOs/month is more than I encounter in the first 6 months.

I think it's because I put a lot of emphasis on radar coverage. A base with a radar and one interceptor isn't expensive to maintain, but it really helps you get points.

When you have limited radar coverage, it is hard to get the ones far from your base(s).. In fact, in my latest game, I'm in March, having encountered 10 UFOs.. and I'm at 150 Elerium. Which I guess is enough to outfit the squad with elerium requiring lasers, but depending on when other things come (ex.: flying/power suits at 16 each), it will get short really fast. I know those probably come much later in the FMP, but still, I can't say I've ever had a game where Elerium wasn't in short supply. Your experience of having more than you know what to do with surprises me (and seems to point at something basic I do wrong, since Dioxine concurs).

Well, it's hard to compare FMP to the vanilla, because for example you can extract grav units from Floaters so you don't have to build them (less Elerium needed), but yes, I agree with your general reasoning.

The thing with FMP is, before you find any way to spend Elerium, you'll probably have a big stash of it. At least that's what my experience shows.

Making an eternally charged weapon for 1 elerium is fine, making laser clips require 1 each seems like a big expense in mid-game. Especially since, unlike plasmas, you can't scavenge those clips from aliens.

No, but you can scavenge them from the Men in Black. It's not quite the same, since you don't encounter this faction very often and you never have enough clips, but still - I don't really produce laser clips, because once I learn how to, I almost immediately get to endless lasers. However, this is not guaranteed for every game.

The XCom cannon issue is an entirely different thing too, but it seems to support no elerium (or only as a focusing element), instead of using it as an energy source.

Well, it's probably the harshest thing about Elerium usage in the entire FMP. :) I wanted to make it so that it's not the only choice, but then after some reports I decided it was too harsh, so I added the Stormlance.

I never once get any landed battleships. I shoot down every UFO and I rarely, if ever get a Power Source. It takes me a long ass time to get any kind of Elerium.

And for some reason, Alien Bases never appear for me. Probably because I shoot every UFO I see down and don't let them build them during the early game, but come on aliens. Throw me a bone here. You're giving everyone tonnes of elerium.

Well, perhaps you're just unlucky? This is a random game, every campaign is different has its own peculiar points. You probably just need to go by with gauss in this case. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on August 11, 2014, 12:57:59 am
Easy. Put a skyranger in a ufo and wait. When land start the mission automatic
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: gerv on August 11, 2014, 10:40:01 am
As a compromise, why not implement the clip consolidation feature, where you don't use up every clip which has had one shot fired out of it, but instead can consolidate the remaining shots into clips so you only lose clips for as many shots as you fired?

That would mean you would have to make laser clips quite a bit less often.

But yes, to me it doesn't make game-world sense for lasers to require Elerium, or even to have clips. Laser is an existing earth technology, and only requires power.

Gerv
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Arthanor on August 11, 2014, 04:50:22 pm
I think clip consolidation is already implemented in OpenXCom, isn't it? (See here (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Differences_to_X-COM_%28OpenXcom%29))
Quote from: UFOPaedia on OpenXCom features
At the end of the mission, ammo from clips is totalled, so you only lose enough clips to match the total ammo used (as opposed to losing any used clip).

I'm pretty sure the clips of all laser weapons represent a power pack, to provide the necessary power to fire. It's not ammunition, but more like a new battery to put in after the one you were using ran out. Many a setting with laser based weapons has power packs. It is a high energy weapon, changing the battery doesn't seem outlandish.

Regarding Elerium, maybe laser weapons are an Earth technology, but we can't find a power source to make it work until Elerium becomes available? Elerium is said to be a great source of energy, better than what we have on Earth. So either you need to have a truckload of batteries following every soldier, or you need Elerium in your clip. It can be rationalized if you want to, although maybe not while following established XCom cannon.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on August 11, 2014, 05:22:04 pm
A idea. Put lasers clips but depending of materials. More power. For ex basic clip. Only money less damage. 2 clip with alien alloy. Medium damage or 3 clip with elerium. High damage.

May be change the clips for materials only and have 3 tipes of wepons withouths clips. Similar than vainilla laser. Only change the colour. Red normal. Blue alloy. And green elerium
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: yrizoud on August 11, 2014, 07:45:18 pm
Started a playthrough in Poland, missed the first day's interception (Australia is far!), succeeded the second but no elerium. Now it's 31st January and I get a night terror mission in Australia, with only the starting weapons  :'(
You probably just need to go by with gauss
If I read the ruleset correctly, Gauss tech requires an intact power source - which is the same requirement as Elerium.
It's a pity that there's so little choice in early game... 1 topic at the very beginning (motion scanner), 2 trees after the first crash recovery(alien bio & alloys).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Hobbes on August 11, 2014, 09:45:46 pm
I think this is a great effort that is being made to get together all the mods but I'd also like to toss in something for your guys to reflect upon:

"The Danger of More
'Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.' -- Antoine de St. Exupery

Every new object has a cost, not just in what it takes to create, test and manage, but the player has to keep track of it as well. In general we should only add items because they offer a significant improvement to some aspect of the game, and not just to have more units, more resources, etc.
It sounds good to be able to offer a long list of new objects. That was much of the appeal of the very popular Civ3 Double your Pleasure (DyP) mod. But the success of DyP wasn’t because of all the new objects, but because each one had a distinct functional purpose. Adding buildings is easy, making them truly worthwhile is the hard part.
Is it needed? Would it be missed if it was taken out? Is it functionaly unique? If the answer to these is no, it should be considered for removal."

Here's the original Modders Guide (https://kael.civfanatics.net/files/ModdersGuide.pdf) from which the above citation was taken.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 11, 2014, 10:50:00 pm
But yes, to me it doesn't make game-world sense for lasers to require Elerium, or even to have clips. Laser is an existing earth technology, and only requires power.

And where do you think this energy comes from? :P

The only problem with hand-held lasers is energy requirement. The only thing X-Com offers in this regard is Elerium, and that's exactly what was used.

A idea. Put lasers clips but depending of materials. More power. For ex basic clip. Only money less damage. 2 clip with alien alloy. Medium damage or 3 clip with elerium. High damage.

That could work, I'm not saying no. But those money-only clips would have to be really crappy to remain believable. :)

May be change the clips for materials only and have 3 tipes of wepons withouths clips. Similar than vainilla laser. Only change the colour. Red normal. Blue alloy. And green elerium

Alloy is not an energy source, which is the only issue. But we could have two tiers at least. The downside would be, the equipment lists are already quite long...

Started a playthrough in Poland, missed the first day's interception (Australia is far!), succeeded the second but no elerium. Now it's 31st January and I get a night terror mission in Australia, with only the starting weapons  :'(
It's a pity that there's so little choice in early game... 1 topic at the very beginning (motion scanner), 2 trees after the first crash recovery(alien bio & alloys).

Yeah, the choice isn't very big at the very beginning. Maybe it'll change at some point, if something comes up... But I personally don't think it's a big problem.

And your first terror will be with starting weapons almost always anyway.

And lasers/gauss are designed to be competitive against each other. I'd gladly make their prerequisites slightly different, but frankly I don't really know how to do it elegantly.

I think this is a great effort that is being made to get together all the mods but I'd also like to toss in something for your guys to reflect upon:

"The Danger of More
'Perfection is not achieved when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.' -- Antoine de St. Exupery

Every new object has a cost, not just in what it takes to create, test and manage, but the player has to keep track of it as well. In general we should only add items because they offer a significant improvement to some aspect of the game, and not just to have more units, more resources, etc.
It sounds good to be able to offer a long list of new objects. That was much of the appeal of the very popular Civ3 Double your Pleasure (DyP) mod. But the success of DyP wasn’t because of all the new objects, but because each one had a distinct functional purpose. Adding buildings is easy, making them truly worthwhile is the hard part.
Is it needed? Would it be missed if it was taken out? Is it functionaly unique? If the answer to these is no, it should be considered for removal."

I very much agree with this point. And I believe I stuck with it throughout the process of creation, for better or worse. I also think that Human Ktulu feels similarly.

Yes, there are many new objects in this mod. However, there could easily be four times as much if we included everything we could find that looked fine. So I think I can say that I at least tried hard streamlining everything and giving every weapon etc. a unique purpose.

For example: in the last update, I finally included some Earth weapons like AK-47 or Uzi. However, these weapons are only used by alien supporters on Earth; you can sell them if you get them, you can even use them if you really want to, but you can't buy them, since it wouldn't make sense for X-Com to buy weapons that are 50 years outdated and with generally worse stats (they only use the best, most modern example of everything).

Having said that, it should be emphasised that FMP is not just about new equipment, but also new alien races, new terrain etc. Yet it's the equipment that remains in the spotlight - probably unsurprisingly, since it influences the tactics more than anything else.



Now, I would like to outline what comes next - partially to motivate myself, but of course for feedback too:

- New armours. The concepts were made months ago, but making new sprites is scary to me (by now I have only done the hybrids from scratch, and it wasn't completely from scratch) and it'll take time. Most of them will follow the "less armour than a standard suit from similar tech level, but with a stat bonus instead" pattern. Their objective is to 1) give the player more power over troop specialization (if they want something like this - not everyone does, but you can always stick to vanilla armours) and 2) to make alien autopsies give something useful as a nice bonus. And there will be one armour significantly tougher than Flying Suit (especially in the lower regions), but really unwieldy.

- Weapons rebalance. I want to add range dropoff stuff to make weapons more different from one another. I've already done it with shotguns - now they're more deadly than before in close quarters, but their accuracy drops really fast.

- More alien hybrid stuff. This is a bit of a pet project of mine, and the FMP is a nice environment to cultivate it, as long as you guys don't find it bothersome (just say so if you do). More stuff is required before I release it as a separate mod.

- Changing the Alloy Skyranger to a better model. Still haven't decided which one, honestly this is a bit of a headache, but I feel most people don't like the current one much and I'm not crazy about it either.

- Fixing bugs, naturally. In the next version I'll fix the Stormlance bug (making it non-buyable) and a bug with the hybrids being way too well-armoured for what they're wearing.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Arthanor on August 11, 2014, 11:29:13 pm
Just a few quick comments:

1- I greatly respect your endeavor of building such a complex mod. Juggling everything to make it into a sensible whole is quite a task and I very much appreciate that you make it available to everyone.

2- The manual that was linked also talks about the beauty of modular mods. How it allows everyone to play with their preferred combination. As shown by the laser issue, maybe you are reaching a point where a more modular approach would work well? Like a "basic" FMP, which contains everything that makes the soul of the FMP (new races, UFOs, MiB, Terrain, Research Tree, whatever you think it is), and a "FMP Options", which contains mods that are intended to work with the FMP but not necessary, like the AK-47 and laser clips, or maybe even some races/UFOs/Terrain that do come in standalone mods.

3-
Alloy is not an energy source, which is the only issue. But we could have two tiers at least. The downside would be, the equipment lists are already quite long...
Maybe you can make a really good battery out of alien alloys? Batteries use a combination of materials, maybe instead of the LI-ion/NiMH/Ni-Cad tech we use now, XCom can come up with a AlienAlloy-ion or NiAA combination that holds power better. It wasn't invented on Earth because we never knew of whatever alien alloys are, but that doesn't mean that it is not within Earth's possibility to supply power to laser rifles (as alloys can be manufactured on Earth).

Or approach it as alien alloys being the only material which may contain a miniature nuclear reaction that powers the rifle. Once the Hydrogen, Uranium or whatever inside is consumed (through fusion or fission), the pack is useless. The alloy is "only" the packaging/shielding, but without it the whole clip would be impossible.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 11, 2014, 11:56:13 pm
Quote
- Weapons rebalance. I want to add range dropoff stuff to make weapons more different from one another. I've already done it with shotguns - now they're more deadly than before in close quarters, but their accuracy drops really fast.

Have you considered adding in some of the new tanks I added in myself from "Tanks, Drones, Sectopods? Oh my!" (E.g Hovertank/Scatterlaser, Tank/Artillery to name a few) and possibly some of the balances I made to make it slightly more realistic when compared to vehicles of X-Com's time? There will be a new update soon anyways.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 11, 2014, 11:59:34 pm
Just a few quick comments:

1- I greatly respect your endeavor of building such a complex mod. Juggling everything to make it into a sensible whole is quite a task and I very much appreciate that you make it available to everyone.

Thank you! It's great fun for myself as well. :)

2- The manual that was linked also talks about the beauty of modular mods. How it allows everyone to play with their preferred combination. As shown by the laser issue, maybe you are reaching a point where a more modular approach would work well? Like a "basic" FMP, which contains everything that makes the soul of the FMP (new races, UFOs, MiB, Terrain, Research Tree, whatever you think it is), and a "FMP Options", which contains mods that are intended to work with the FMP but not necessary, like the AK-47 and laser clips, or maybe even some races/UFOs/Terrain that do come in standalone mods.

I fully understand the value of modular mods. Actually, this is what FMP was supposed to be. However, the various elements are so intertwined, so dependant on one another, that I would find it extremely hard to divide. If for example you make a module with Earth weapons (shotguns etc.) and not use it, what will happen to the alloy ammo for these weapons, because you used this? And if you include the alloy ammo with the weapons, what if you don't want this feature? Or what if you include new armours that depends on new alien autopsies, but not the aliens themselves? Or what about the (modified) MiB if you don't use gauss weapons - they'll need new loadouts? And so on.

Perhaps one day it'll be possible to quarter the FMP somehow, but I can't really see it happening now. I'm not nearly that badass of a modder. :P

3-Maybe you can make a really good battery out of alien alloys? Batteries use a combination of materials, maybe instead of the LI-ion/NiMH/Ni-Cad tech we use now, XCom can come up with a AlienAlloy-ion or NiAA combination that holds power better. It wasn't invented on Earth because we never knew of whatever alien alloys are, but that doesn't mean that it is not within Earth's possibility to supply power to laser rifles (as alloys can be manufactured on Earth).

Having thought about it, I think it would be possible to use alien alloys as an excuse for better batteries. However, I fear adding new items on a whim, since getting around the manufacturing menu is already too long for my tastes (though still nothing when compared to Piratez :P). But I promise to think about it more.

Have you considered adding in some of the new tanks I added in myself from "Tanks, Drones, Sectopods? Oh my!" (E.g Hovertank/Scatterlaser, Tank/Artillery to name a few) and possibly some of the balances I made to make it slightly more realistic when compared to vehicles of X-Com's time? There will be a new update soon anyways.

Of course! I just didn't get around to studying it yet. And considering I evolved my own balance philosophy here, it won't be so easy. But I plan to do it.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: yrizoud on August 12, 2014, 12:06:08 am
Having said that, it should be emphasised that FMP is not just about new equipment, but also new alien races, new terrain etc. Yet it's the equipment that remains in the spotlight - probably unsurprisingly, since it influences the tactics more than anything else.
Indeed, my first battle was full of new and well-balanced stuff : A sectoid "+"-shaped ship with a very interesting design, and a single blast of plasma caster which hit several rookies and had me scrambling for medkits in turn 3 of the first battle.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on August 12, 2014, 12:40:55 am
You complainin'? Well, I'm here to do likewise  :)

I've started myself a new game, using FMP and my own mods, set it to ironman superhuman. Now it is April, all I've got is alloy ammo and some armors (not even enough personal armors for the whole squad) and BLAM comes main base defense against sectoids and cyberdiscs. I've barely survived and reinforcements from my other bases are on their way and BLAM a second helping of the same. Two thirds of my men are dead, all the tanks are scrap metal and I still have no living leader or commander.

I've already had two missions against mutons, my first terror was sectoids and the second one too, the only time I saw a floater was my third terror and the only time I saw snakemen was a large scout in a new forrest terrain full of hills (it had caves too). The RNG must be out to get me.

So the line about tougher aliens appearing later in the game has me kind of wondering. Could we *please* have more floaters and snakemen during the early game? Sectoids are not exactly weak when you're miles away from psi-labs. My latest mission is another terror and it is gillmen chtonites and boy am I happy to see them...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Arthanor on August 12, 2014, 12:44:05 am
I'm glad you are rethinking the alloy battery pack :) I think it might be the best way to appease the crowds ;) As for adding items, you indeed do have to pick which ones, otherwise it is very easy to get too many.

I fully understand the value of modular mods. Actually, this is what FMP was supposed to be. However, the various elements are so intertwined, so dependant on one another, that I would find it extremely hard to divide. If for example you make a module with Earth weapons (shotguns etc.) and not use it, what will happen to the alloy ammo for these weapons, because you used this? And if you include the alloy ammo with the weapons, what if you don't want this feature? Or what if you include new armours that depends on new alien autopsies, but not the aliens themselves? Or what about the (modified) MiB if you don't use gauss weapons - they'll need new loadouts? And so on.

Perhaps one day it'll be possible to quarter the FMP somehow, but I can't really see it happening now. I'm not nearly that badass of a modder. :P

From my experience of adding something to a mod only to find out it was impossible to unlock because I had made a typo in the "requires" list, I think you can do it like this (as a pseudocode summary of a shotgun ruleset):

items:
- Shotgun
- Shotgun Shell
- Shotgun Alloy Shell
  requires: Alloy Ammo
- Shotgun Elerium Shell
  requires: Elerium Ammo

No research entry

manufacture:
- Shotgun Alloy Shell
  uses: Alien Alloy
  requires: Alloy Ammo
- Shotgun Elerium Shell
  uses: Elerium
  requires: Elerium Ammo

ufopaedia
- Shotgun
- Shotgun Shell
- Shotgun Alloy Shell
  requires: Alloy Ammo
- Shotgun Elerium Shell
  requires: Elerium Ammo

extrasprites:
- Shotgun
- Shotgun Shell
- Shotgun Alloy Shell
- Shotgun Elerium Shell
What this does is provide all the information required to have the extra stuff, but nothing to unlock it. If another mod you have happens to contain an Alloy Ammo or Elerium Ammo research topic, *poof* the shotgun stuff will become available alongside the rest. To keep the illusion complete, use the proper list orders so the extra shotgun stuff fits right where it belongs on lists with the other mod.

You can also define prerequisite to things even though you are not using them, in your research tree. Let's say I come up with a new weapon type, Laser Blasters, as a powerful alternative to Plasma, but since I just want to win, I make it have no prerequisites. Nothing prevents you, in your mod, to list my opening tech: "Laser Blaster Weapons" and add a list with all kinds of prerequisites, so it fits in your universe. If someone plays your mod without Laser Blasters, they will never see it (no cost = not available for research; no ufopaedia = doesn't show anywhere). If someone adds that mod, suddenly it is not available from the start when used with the FMP, but instead unlocked when the requirements are met.

The trickier bit is when prerequisites are already listed, since they overwrite your list if loaded after your mod. The only possibility then is to delay those prerequisites or, more likely, agree with the modder to make a FMP compatible version.

In fact, I think it might be interesting if, as a community, we came up with a list of "anchor points" for mods. Techs like "Alloy Ammunition" or "High Energy Weaponry" for plasma level tech. If I make a new shotgun, I can just depend on the anchor of "Alloy Ammunition" to make my shotgun alloy ammo available. If I make a new Laser Blaster tech, I can just depend on the anchor of "High Energy Weaponry" to unlock it.

Different mods could then define what the pre-requisites of these anchors are, the FMP one way, while the XAE could define them differently, and a basic mod called "anchor points" could define what we agree should be the vanilla behavior where pre-requisites can only be vanilla research topics (ex.: Alien Alloy unlocks Alloy Ammo; Elerium + Alien Alloy + UFO Power Source unlocks High Energy Weaponry).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on August 12, 2014, 04:21:08 pm
My idea in batteries clip is:

Baterie standard nirmal clip building with techology actual. Is similar than a batteri of mobile and the idea is in the construction of batterie 30% carcase ant the rest quimical for energy.

Alloy batterie. The alloy is better more hard and the proportion is 5% for case and the rest for energy componets. This is the difference of the weapon. More damage for the difference of the quatity of componets. If you buy a laser weapon withouth clip you have more space for energy components. This is the idea. Sorry if i dont explain better

And elerium dont have explain XD. The ithe for them is use alloy and elerium XD
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on August 12, 2014, 04:24:57 pm
And another question.

In my game i see sectopods in 3 missions. 20 missions along i dont see more. And i dont have corpose to rebuild.

May be ppssible other option to build them
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: the_third_curry on August 13, 2014, 12:15:48 am
If you're planning on adjusting the dropoffs for balancing, I believe I read that you can set the dropoff for weapons to a negative number and create weapons that fire worse as you get closer. This could help balance weapons that are intended to be long-range.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 13, 2014, 04:48:59 am
I think I've finally come to terms with it.

I've tried this mod at least four times now, and every time I just back out, uninstall it, install my own preferred mods and start a new game. I do not like Final Mod Pack in it's current state.

Let me reiterate that.

In it's current state.

I have faith in Final Mod Pack though. Once it's V.1.0a/b I'll retry it again. For now, I cannot play around with it.

It's not Final Mod Pack, it's me. I just think too many thing can be tweaked and shortened though I can do nothing about it but complain on a forum. And while you might appreciate it, you probably wouldn't appreciate what I had to say about it.

Listen. This is a good mod. A very good mod.

Just not a mod for me in it's current state.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on August 14, 2014, 12:07:48 am
Aaarrrgh... Either the RNG *is* out to get me, or the mod still needs some balancing. Granted, I'm playing on ironman superhuman, but still...

It is June and I'm finally researching a laser rifle. I already have it in ufopaedia thanks to some glitch but I'm finally researching it. So my weapons so far have been earth firearms with alien alloy ammo. Which kinda sucks considering my main enemies for the past two months have been mutons. Power 40*0.6=24 versus armor 20 mutons is not very funny but rifles and LMGs are my best general-purpose weapons so that's what most of my men use. And I'm using up so much alien alloys I've actually had to manufacture some.

I have four bases, two of them with HWDs and I've managed to shoot down all the scouts I've detected. But I've had to defend my main base three times, twice against sectoids and once against my own mechtoids, and my number three base now has a second muton battleship incoming. My first two terrors were sectoids, the third one floaters (a blessing) and the fourth one.snakemen (plus I've shot down several terror ships). I've aborted the fifth terror because it was mutons at night. In fact I'm fighting mostly mutons since May and the fight is becoming a chore. The first base defence against mutons took me 91 turns and I've had to pick up ammo from storage room floors because most of my guys ran out of it. Sure, all but two of them were garrison rookies, but still.

So I'm really hoping that the laser rifles I'm researching will give me a turnover point because I do need one. I've researched tons of things I have no obvious use for and which give me no immediate benefit. I can finally begin researching laser and gauss and plasma weapons but right now I'm still fighting the aliens using the same weapons I've been using months ago and it feels like I've had to reasearch tons of stuff and there's already 55 (I've just counted them!) more research topics on my list (not counting the few more from my other mods). I've been using laser hovertank for like a month but my men still use LMGs and no powersuits?

So I definittely understand XCOMFan419's feelings. Maybe I'm more patient, so I'll fight on, at least for some time, but I feel like the 0.8 version of the FMP is much more frustrating to play than the 0.5 version I've been using before.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: SIMON on August 14, 2014, 06:04:32 pm
Not sure if this is the right place for this observation and to be honest I haven't a clue about designing mods but on looking @ the rulset for the final mod I noticed something that seemed odd to me. My very limited understanding of the air combat had the interception window open @ standoff range which I think is 75km but on looking @ the new Raider ship its weapon range is 82km. How does this work in practice?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on August 14, 2014, 07:30:19 pm
Not sure if this is the right place for this observation and to be honest I haven't a clue about designing mods but on looking @ the rulset for the final mod I noticed something that seemed odd to me. My very limited understanding of the air combat had the interception window open @ standoff range which I think is 75km but on looking @ the new Raider ship its weapon range is 82km. How does this work in practice?
Autofire XD
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on August 14, 2014, 07:34:06 pm
Starting a new game - so far, I've had no problems getting gauss and laser weapons fairly early, but in the past games it took me forever to research elerium, essentially leading to a situation where if I could survive to research psi-amp, I had comparatively weak weapons, but could PSI-control everything in sight. Looking at the ruleset, though, it looks like a poor RNG streak, sicne Delta Radiation that's its prerequisite is attainable both from leaders and engineers. I'll try to keep notes of this game.

By the way, I suspect it's a bug - last game I couldn't research the stormlance launcher, but the missiles are purchasable in the general store.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on August 14, 2014, 10:31:54 pm
Or you're unlucky in this, because in my game, I'm already using the Stormlances. Yes, I got so tired of not being able to research the other weapons that I've researched it so I'd have *some* new weapons and yes, I'm buying those Stormlances. I know them being for sale is almost certainly a bug but hey, the game is trying so hard to kill me I'll take this help. Especially since Stormlances are more like a convenience, they make easier a job I can do with Avalanches too.

Oh well, about time to go and let that muton battleship land.Pity they weren't willing to wait till I finish that laser rifle research  :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on August 15, 2014, 12:46:23 am
Or you're unlucky in this, because in my game, I'm already using the Stormlances. Yes, I got so tired of not being able to research the other weapons that I've researched it so I'd have *some* new weapons and yes, I'm buying those Stormlances. I know them being for sale is almost certainly a bug but hey, the game is trying so hard to kill me I'll take this help. Especially since Stormlances are more like a convenience, they make easier a job I can do with Avalanches too.

Oh well, about time to go and let that muton battleship land.Pity they weren't willing to wait till I finish that laser rifle research  :)
Yes it is a bug 're stormlance, Solar mentioned earlier in this thread that the fix will come with next release
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on August 15, 2014, 01:50:43 am
I'm afraid there's something else that needs fixing. I've shot down a ufo and when I try to land, the game crashes with a vector::_M_range_check error.

I'm not sure what might be causing it and a part of the problem is that the downed ship comes from my own mod (so I can't turn my mod off to test just the FMP); but the mission loads fine when I turn off the FMP. My own ship is basically a renamed terror ship with different deployment data and 60*60 URBAN terrain and like I've said, the mission loads fine when I turn off the FMP (I went ahead and manually copied the ironman savefile so I could hunt the bug down).

Anyone has any idea what might be causing this? I can't turn the FMP off for this one mission becauce I'd lose all the FMP stuff and I do want to try this mission because it might give me psionics.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on August 15, 2014, 01:56:32 am
I'm afraid there's something else that needs fixing. I've shot down a ufo and when I try to land, the game crashes with a vector::_M_range_check error.

I'm not sure what might be causing it and a part of the problem is that the downed ship comes from my own mod (so I can't turn my mod off to test just the FMP); but the mission loads fine when I turn off the FMP. My own ship is basically a renamed terror ship with different deployment data and 60*60 URBAN terrain and like I've said, the mission loads fine when I turn off the FMP (I went ahead and manually copied the ironman savefile so I could hunt the bug down).

Anyone has any idea what might be causing this? I can't turn the FMP off for this one mission becauce I'd lose all the FMP stuff and I do want to try this mission because it might give me psionics.
Put your savegame
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on August 15, 2014, 02:21:57 am
Here it is, you'll need both the FMP and my own Mechtoids mods to make it work.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Hobbes on August 15, 2014, 03:12:11 am
I'm afraid there's something else that needs fixing. I've shot down a ufo and when I try to land, the game crashes with a vector::_M_range_check error.

I'm not sure what might be causing it and a part of the problem is that the downed ship comes from my own mod (so I can't turn my mod off to test just the FMP); but the mission loads fine when I turn off the FMP. My own ship is basically a renamed terror ship with different deployment data and 60*60 URBAN terrain and like I've said, the mission loads fine when I turn off the FMP (I went ahead and manually copied the ironman savefile so I could hunt the bug down).

Anyone has any idea what might be causing this? I can't turn the FMP off for this one mission becauce I'd lose all the FMP stuff and I do want to try this mission because it might give me psionics.

Can you post the ruleset for your mod? The issue might be with the Battlescape definitions.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on August 15, 2014, 10:56:39 am
OK, here's the mod (or you can download it from the modserver).

And I'll admit the bug is leaving me quite confused because I'm using my own alienDeployment, which doesn't exist in the FMP, I'm only using vanilla maps/terrains and the mission works fine when I turn the FMP off. So the bug is likely caused by either a bug in the FMP or by an incompatibility between my mod and the FMP and I see no reason for either. The game crashes even when I ditch all the FMP equipment, I'm fighting my own alien race, the map uses URBAN terrain which the FMP doesn't modify (and crashes even when I delete this from my modfile). My prime suspect is new UFO maps, considering I've copypasted vanilla terror ship and FMP mods those, because other than that, there's (I think) no other reason for the FMP to crash it.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 15, 2014, 02:38:43 pm
Hi!

Sorry, it took me a while, since a new job is taking a lot of my time and energy. I'm still here though, and as determined to work on the FMP as ever!

Thanks for all the feedback, it's priceless. I'll try to address all your questions.

Quote from: Harald_Gray link=topic=20%27.msg29502#msg29502 date=140%779325%5%
I've started myself a new game, using FMP and my own mods, set it to ironman superhuman. Now it is April, all I've got is alloy ammo and some armors (not even enough personal armors for the whole squad) and BLAM comes main base defense against sectoids and cyberdiscs. I've barely survived and reinforcements from my other bases are on their way and BLAM a second helping of the same. Two thirds of my men are dead, all the tanks are scrap metal and I still have no living leader or commander.

Where is your base located? I learned the hard way that putting your first base in France is a guaranteed way to get a visit from the aliens once a month. :P Normally I start in south-western Russia, around Crimea
(not a political message)
, and it never looked like this.

Quote from: Harald_Gray link=topic=20%27.msg29502#msg29502 date=140%779325%5%
I've already had two missions against mutons, my first terror was sectoids and the second one too, the only time I saw a floater was my third terror and the only time I saw snakemen was a large scout in a new forrest terrain full of hills (it had caves too). The RNG must be out to get me.

So the line about tougher aliens appearing later in the game has me kind of wondering. Could we *please* have more floaters and snakemen during the early game? Sectoids are not exactly weak when you're miles away from psi-labs. My latest mission is another terror and it is gillmen chtonites and boy am I happy to see them...

I guess it would be possible, but it's already pretty balanced. Here's the percentage for alien races for the first three months:

Code: [Select]
ALIEN RESEARCH:
      January:
          Sectoids: 60%
          Floaters: 20%
          Anthropods: 20%
      February:
          Sectoids: 55%
          Floaters: 20%
          Anthropods: 20%
          Snakemen: 5%
      March:
          Sectoids: 60%
          Floaters: 20%
          Snakemen: 10%
          Anthropods: 10%

ALIEN HARVEST:
     January:
          Sectoids: 30%
          Floaters: 30%
          Chtonites: 20%
          Anthropods: 20%
      February:
          Sectoids: 30%
          Floaters: 30%
          Chtonites: 20%
          Anthropods: 20%
      March:
          Sectoids: 30%
          Floaters: 30%
          Chtonites: 20%
          Anthropods: 20%

ALIEN ABDUCTION:
      January:
          Sectoids: 40%
          Floaters: 30%
          Chtonites: 20%
          Anthropods: 10%
      February:
          Sectoids: 40%
          Floaters: 30%
          Chtonites: 20%
          Anthropods: 10%
      March:
          Sectoids: 30%
          Floaters: 20%
          Chtonites: 30%
          Anthropods: 20%

ALIEN INFILTRATION:
      January:
          Sectoids: 50%
          Floaters: 30%
          Anthropods: 20%
      February:
          Sectoids: 40%
          Floaters: 25%
          Anthropods: 25%
          Snakemen: 10%
      March:
          Sectoids: 40%
          Floaters: 30%
          Snakemen: 20%
          Anthropods: 10%

ALIEN BASE:
      January:
          Sectoids: 40%
          Floaters: 30%
          Chtonites: 30%
      February:
          Sectoids: 40%
          Floaters: 30%
          Chtonites: 30%
      March:
          Sectoids: 30%
          Floaters: 30%
          Chtonites: 30%
          Snakemen: 10%

ALIEN TERROR:
      January:
          Sectoids: 30%
          Floaters: 30%
          Chtonites: 30%
          Anthropods: 10%
      February:
          Sectoids: 30%
          Floaters: 30%
          Chtonites: 30%
          Anthropods: 10%
      March:
          Sectoids: 30%
          Floaters: 30%
          Chtonites: 20%
          Anthropods: 20%

Retaliation works differently and has no set races.[/spoiler]

As you can see, Sectoids only have a significant advantage in the research missions, since they're, well, researchers. Most menial and combat missions are mostly undertaken by other aliens. But yes, you the RNG hates you, you'll get your least prefered race 80% of the time. :P

[quote author=Arthanor link=topic=2027.msg29505#msg29505 date=1407793445]
From my experience of adding something to a mod only to find out it was impossible to unlock because I had made a typo in the "requires" list, I think you can do it like this (as a pseudocode summary of a shotgun ruleset):

[spoiler]
items:
- Shotgun
- Shotgun Shell
- Shotgun Alloy Shell
  requires: Alloy Ammo
- Shotgun Elerium Shell
  requires: Elerium Ammo

No research entry

manufacture:
- Shotgun Alloy Shell
  uses: Alien Alloy
  requires: Alloy Ammo
- Shotgun Elerium Shell
  uses: Elerium
  requires: Elerium Ammo

ufopaedia
- Shotgun
- Shotgun Shell
- Shotgun Alloy Shell
  requires: Alloy Ammo
- Shotgun Elerium Shell
  requires: Elerium Ammo

extrasprites:
- Shotgun
- Shotgun Shell
- Shotgun Alloy Shell
- Shotgun Elerium Shell
What this does is provide all the information required to have the extra stuff, but nothing to unlock it. If another mod you have happens to contain an Alloy Ammo or Elerium Ammo research topic, *poof* the shotgun stuff will become available alongside the rest. To keep the illusion complete, use the proper list orders so the extra shotgun stuff fits right where it belongs on lists with the other mod.[/code]

Frankly, I'm, not sure what your advice contains. If it's about how to control typos, well, I guess I'm doing fine with a little help from Falko's tools. If it's about how to split the ruleset into multiple rulesets (which I think is the case), then I agree, but it's still too complex to try at the moment.

In fact, I think it might be interesting if, as a community, we came up with a list of "anchor points" for mods. Techs like "Alloy Ammunition" or "High Energy Weaponry" for plasma level tech. If I make a new shotgun, I can just depend on the anchor of "Alloy Ammunition" to make my shotgun alloy ammo available. If I make a new Laser Blaster tech, I can just depend on the anchor of "High Energy Weaponry" to unlock it.

Different mods could then define what the pre-requisites of these anchors are, the FMP one way, while the XAE could define them differently, and a basic mod called "anchor points" could define what we agree should be the vanilla behavior where pre-requisites can only be vanilla research topics (ex.: Alien Alloy unlocks Alloy Ammo; Elerium + Alien Alloy + UFO Power Source unlocks High Energy Weaponry).

It's certainly an idea worth discussing. I think it deserves a separate thread though, since it concerns many mods, not just FMP. :)

Baterie standard nirmal clip building with techology actual. Is similar than a batteri of mobile and the idea is in the construction of batterie 30% carcase ant the rest quimical for energy.

Sadly, a human tech battery will never be able to power even a humble laser firearm, period. Not even now, after the revolution brought by the development of cell phones, and even more so back in 1999. This is just unfeasible.

Alloy batterie. The alloy is better more hard and the proportion is 5% for case and the rest for energy componets. This is the difference of the weapon. More damage for the difference of the quatity of componets. If you buy a laser weapon withouth clip you have more space for energy components. This is the idea. Sorry if i dont explain better

Yeah, the battery size and weight matters, but even a large and heavy alien alloy battery would only be as good as the alloys are good in energy storage - which is definitely better than human solutions, but not overly so, or the aliens wouldn't need the Elerium for hand weapons. If alloy batteries do get in the game, they'll be really small... Like, 1 shot only for the Heavy Laser, 6 shots for the Laser Rifle and the Laser Pistol. Something like this.

And another question.
In my game i see sectopods in 3 missions. 20 missions along i dont see more. And i dont have corpose to rebuild.
May be ppssible other option to build them

No. :P

...Well, maybe. :P But this mod plays with the idea of making each campaign different depending on what gets randomly chosen to throw at you. In some games you might not even get the lasers at all, since you get plasmas early, in other games you can't find Cyberdiscs so you don't get your own, and so own. This will be further capitalized on with armours, which will largely depend on alien races.

If you're planning on adjusting the dropoffs for balancing, I believe I read that you can set the dropoff for weapons to a negative number and create weapons that fire worse as you get closer. This could help balance weapons that are intended to be long-range.

Oh, I never thought about that - many thanks. But there's the minRange flag, which essentially does the same. I'll probably use it for the sniper rifles.

Using a negative dropoff value... well, I don't know how to use it sensibly. It reminds me of the Warhammer 40.000 weapon named Conversion Beam, which gets stronger as the firing distance increases... But it's a Space Marine weapon, and therefore obviously silly and unfair. :P

I think I've finally come to terms with it.

I've tried this mod at least four times now, and every time I just back out, uninstall it, install my own preferred mods and start a new game. I do not like Final Mod Pack in it's current state.

Let me reiterate that.

In it's current state.

I have faith in Final Mod Pack though. Once it's V.1.0a/b I'll retry it again. For now, I cannot play around with it.

It's not Final Mod Pack, it's me. I just think too many thing can be tweaked and shortened though I can do nothing about it but complain on a forum. And while you might appreciate it, you probably wouldn't appreciate what I had to say about it.

Listen. This is a good mod. A very good mod.

Just not a mod for me in it's current state.

No problem man. The readme even says directly this is not a mod for everyone. I have no problem with that, though of course it would be nicer if everyone loved your work. ;)

Anyway, I'd like to reiterate that I do read every single complaint and take it into consideration. And I introduce most of them, as long as they don't collide with other ideas that I want to keep.

Aaarrrgh... Either the RNG *is* out to get me, or the mod still needs some balancing. Granted, I'm playing on ironman superhuman, but still...

It is June and I'm finally researching a laser rifle.

Well, I think it's pretty early. :)

I already have it in ufopaedia thanks to some glitch but I'm finally researching it.

It's not a glitch, it's an attempt to "appease the masses". :P Since laser weapons were aready seen in the hands of Men in Black, and could be used by X-Com soldiers if picked up, people complained they couldn't see their stats. So I made them available, and now people are complaining again... See what I'm dealing with here? :P

Sorry, let's get back on topic.

So my weapons so far have been earth firearms with alien alloy ammo. Which kinda sucks considering my main enemies for the past two months have been mutons. Power 40*0.6=24 versus armor 20 mutons is not very funny but rifles and LMGs are my best general-purpose weapons so that's what most of my men use. And I'm using up so much alien alloys I've actually had to manufacture some.

I have four bases, two of them with HWDs and I've managed to shoot down all the scouts I've detected. But I've had to defend my main base three times, twice against sectoids and once against my own mechtoids, and my number three base now has a second muton battleship incoming. My first two terrors were sectoids, the third one floaters (a blessing) and the fourth one.snakemen (plus I've shot down several terror ships). I've aborted the fifth terror because it was mutons at night. In fact I'm fighting mostly mutons since May and the fight is becoming a chore. The first base defence against mutons took me 91 turns and I've had to pick up ammo from storage room floors because most of my guys ran out of it. Sure, all but two of them were garrison rookies, but still.

Yeah, same here. I hope that moving the mutons to at least July, as it is now, will help. (The exception is Alien Flyby, which allows Mutons in June.) But if you were playing with an earlier version, you'd get them much earlier, probably even if you switch to the latest version during your campaign (because the missions were already generated for this month). In short, it should be easier with the newest version.

If it's not enough, I can move them further down the timeline.

So I'm really hoping that the laser rifles I'm researching will give me a turnover point because I do need one. I've researched tons of things I have no obvious use for and which give me no immediate benefit. I can finally begin researching laser and gauss and plasma weapons but right now I'm still fighting the aliens using the same weapons I've been using months ago and it feels like I've had to reasearch tons of stuff and there's already 55 (I've just counted them!) more research topics on my list (not counting the few more from my other mods). I've been using laser hovertank for like a month but my men still use LMGs and no powersuits?

So I definittely understand XCOMFan419's feelings. Maybe I'm more patient, so I'll fight on, at least for some time, but I feel like the 0.8 version of the FMP is much more frustrating to play than the 0.5 version I've been using before.

0.8 is definitely more accessible than 0.5, because lasers are way easier to get. If it feels harder, then it's probably due to RNG... But that's what I think. I need more data. :)

Not sure if this is the right place for this observation and to be honest I haven't a clue about designing mods but on looking @ the rulset for the final mod I noticed something that seemed odd to me. My very limited understanding of the air combat had the interception window open @ standoff range which I think is 75km but on looking @ the new Raider ship its weapon range is 82km. How does this work in practice?

The Raider Ship never actually shows up, it's only a way to generate a new type of ground mission. So its stats are irrelevant.

Starting a new game - so far, I've had no problems getting gauss and laser weapons fairly early,

Mister, you're luckier than both me and the others. :)

but in the past games it took me forever to research elerium, essentially leading to a situation where if I could survive to research psi-amp, I had comparatively weak weapons, but could PSI-control everything in sight. Looking at the ruleset, though, it looks like a poor RNG streak, sicne Delta Radiation that's its prerequisite is attainable both from leaders and engineers. I'll try to keep notes of this game.

I've been thinking about making psi harder to get, but whatever you do, it'll always become a game breaker at some point. That's why I play with "line sight only" psionics, even if it makes the game easier against Ethereals. The game just feels better to me. Still, this is a general option, not related to FMP, so do with it what you prefer.

By the way, I suspect it's a bug - last game I couldn't research the stormlance launcher, but the missiles are purchasable in the general store.

Yeah, it's been reported before and will be fixed.

And as for the M range error that Harald reported, I'll look into it, but if your alienDeployments part contains 3 equipment levels per unit (or indeed any number other than 4), then it's not compatible with the FMP, which requires 4 levels. So crashes are expectable.

Whew, I guess that's it for now. I hope this post is not too long for all of you to read... And I know that it's not always what you wanted. Still, it's a complex development and I'm doing my best :)

PS. Has anyone encountered the Hybrids? Do they work?
PPS. WHAT ABOUT THE DAMN SKYRANGER MAP? :P
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on August 15, 2014, 04:56:20 pm
Where is your base located? I learned the hard way that putting your first base in France is a guaranteed way to get a visit from the aliens once a month. :P Normally I start in south-western Russia, around Crimea, and it never looked like this.

Northern Africa. And I guess I just got unlucky with the RNG, because in my experience, base placement has little to no effect on base defense missions.

I guess it would be possible, but it's already pretty balanced. Here's the percentage for alien races for the first three months:

I'm relatively OK with Jan-March, I even wouldn't mind more floaters and snakemen. Too many Sectoids meant too many psi-capable enemies and I was too busy trying to stay alive to capture any leaders (especially since I didn't know which ones were leaders). Then a few chtonites and floaters and snakemen and then came a huge jump in difficulty with the mutons. I must have angered the RNG god and it seemed as if the midgame aliens have simply vanished within half a dozen missions. Truth is, yYour post made me take a look at your ruleset and the values look good even for April to June, so I must have been simply unlucky.

It's not a glitch, it's an attempt to "appease the masses". :P Since laser weapons were aready seen in the hands of Men in Black, and could be used by X-Com soldiers if picked up, people complained they couldn't see their stats. So I made them available, and now people are complaining again... See what I'm dealing with here? :P

I see. But I've never met a single MiB during this game and then it seemed like I've finally got around to those laser rifles and then it seemed like I had to research them twice. Having the ufopedia entry and not having the actual weapons available added to my frustration. I guess not many people get to laser weapons purely by researching alien data slates plus captured aliens, so this behaviour is not that frequent.

Yeah, same here. I hope that moving the mutons to at least July, as it is now, will help. (The exception is Alien Flyby, which allows Mutons in June.) But if you were playing with an earlier version, you'd get them much earlier, probably even if you switch to the latest version during your campaign (because the missions were already generated for this month). In short, it should be easier with the newest version.

If it's not enough, I can move them further down the timeline.

Actually, the second base defense was (almost) easy. I was expecting them, so I've stored lots of proximity mines and HE autocannon ammo and high explosives and I've only lost two guys and a rocket tank versus some 22 aliens. Not bad, for untrained garrison troops with no armor against mutons on ironman superhuman.

And as for the M range error that Harald reported, I'll look into it, but if your alienDeployments part contains 3 equipment levels per unit (or indeed any number other than 4), then it's not compatible with the FMP, which requires 4 levels. So crashes are expectable.

My own mod uses the same four itemlevels your mod uses - I've learned this lesson some time ago - so this should not be a problem. In fact I've even tested my mod with vanilla game and it causes no crashes even when I've defined four itemlevels. The vanilla game simply never uses the last itemlevel, making such a mod compatible with both 3- and 4-itemlevels mods.

Which is what has me so confused. Other than the new terrorship maps, there's seemingly no reason for that crash. Using the New Battle feature, I can even initiate a mission against such a ship using both your mod and mine and it works, so I see no other likely explanation. I've even tried to remove the terrain parts of my deployment rules, to make sure the game would load the terrain based on where the ship went down, and the game still crashes.

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on August 16, 2014, 12:27:33 am
I guess I just got unlucky with the RNG, because in my experience, base placement has little to no effect on base defense missions.

This is untrue. Of course there IS a secret as UFO's follow set patterns but simply checking the code would be cheating :) Anyway there are bad spots like Hawaii (and generally close to any city) where you're guaranteed monthly (if not bi-weekly) visit, and there are sweet spots - one is Transylvania where (depending on exact placement) I've once managed to get no assault for 2 years straight despite dozens of Retals launched over Europe.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: chi.code on August 16, 2014, 01:52:22 am
This mod is very cool :)

How ever I have one thing to change/fix:
I just found what appears to be MiB Man in Black base or something  8)

(I just started playing FMP so please spoilers!)

1) At end there was a super thought guy, he took 5 shoots from sniper rifle, 5-6 shots from pistol, and finally a heavy laser shot took him... wtf? I mean, is that correct behaviour? I play on the 2nd hardness level (not the easiest but the next one)

2) I was looking forward to get research on all the recovered items, how ever I see no new research objects!
- I have 3 kinds of MiB corpses, they can't be researched?
For me it lacks narrative atmosphere like "whaaat the fuck was that?" moment in game, e.g. make a story telling research item (at minimal cost) that will show some information about how Xcom is puzzled by discovering MiB and all
- They where using some suits like black hazmats, I would expect to research them
- If I would had captured them alive (I didn't this time) it would be logical to hold them even without need for alien containment... technically maybe they could be stored as inventory?

Though it's a bit strange to hold man as item... though they were man in... BLACK, if you know what I mean  8)

- There was alien nade, I don't see option to reseach it.

- What about all the laser weapons, no research here either?


Of other things, the new weapons seem not all-right:
- the machines guns, and mini guns, all have INCREDIBLE spread, while being low powered. Maybe make them all a BIT less accurate at least.
- the mini gun should really have a serious punch, maybe 40?  To compensate make it even heavier to handle
- the submachine gun has not cool sound... see how it is in games like SWAT series.
- make another a really cool submachine gun, like a cooler riffle, e.g. 4 shoots, at power like riffle -3, better aim, low weight
- the magnum's sound is mistaken? it sounds like dart gun

One of the files is wrongly names (you see this error on real OSes like Linux, that see difference between uppercase/lowercase in file names):

Resources/FinalModPack/Weapons_Compilation/ClassicWeapons/handob_UZI.png
should be:
Resources/FinalModPack/Weapons_Compilation/ClassicWeapons/HandOb_UZI.png
or the other way around (fix it in .res and the leave the file name as handob_UZI.png)

Either way this mod is very cool, thanks! :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Hobbes on August 16, 2014, 02:25:39 am
OK, here's the mod (or you can download it from the modserver).

And I'll admit the bug is leaving me quite confused because I'm using my own alienDeployment, which doesn't exist in the FMP, I'm only using vanilla maps/terrains and the mission works fine when I turn the FMP off. So the bug is likely caused by either a bug in the FMP or by an incompatibility between my mod and the FMP and I see no reason for either. The game crashes even when I ditch all the FMP equipment, I'm fighting my own alien race, the map uses URBAN terrain which the FMP doesn't modify (and crashes even when I delete this from my modfile). My prime suspect is new UFO maps, considering I've copypasted vanilla terror ship and FMP mods those, because other than that, there's (I think) no other reason for the FMP to crash it.

EDIT: OK, meanwhile I managed to download it. What I noticed is this:

Code: [Select]
  - type: STR_NORTH_AMERICA
    missionWeights:
      STR_MECHTOID_ALIEN_RESEARCH: 4
      STR_MECHTOID_MINITERROR: 6
      STR_MECHTOID_TERROR: 6

Unless I'm mistaken, you need to also add there the regular Abductions, etc., missions, otherwise the game won't generate them.

Code: [Select]
    width: 50
    length: 50
    height: 4
    civilians: 8
    terrains:
      - URBAN

Trying to set the terrain of the UFO as URBAN doesn't work since the game automatically gets the terrain from the location where the UFO has landed/crashed on Geoscape. But you can add civilians.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Hobbes on August 16, 2014, 03:58:55 am
The Raider Ship never actually shows up, it's only a way to generate a new type of ground mission. So its stats are irrelevant.

Solaris, unless you've adapted the Raider Ship for the FMP, on the Terrain Pack the Raider Ship shows up and it is possible to shoot it before it reaches its ground target. And the stats definitely are relevant there :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on August 16, 2014, 04:12:58 pm
Oh well, I've found the source of my problema and it was my own error. So let me apologize for suspecting FMP was the cause.

It was as simple as one missing itemlevel. But I've never noticed during my testing because I've been loading my mod last and my mod uses three itemlevels. And then I've installed a new version of FMP and the mod loading order has changed and the bug manifested itself.

EDIT: OK, meanwhile I managed to download it. What I noticed is this:

Code: [Select]
  - type: STR_NORTH_AMERICA
    missionWeights:
      STR_MECHTOID_ALIEN_RESEARCH: 4
      STR_MECHTOID_MINITERROR: 6
      STR_MECHTOID_TERROR: 6

Unless I'm mistaken, you need to also add there the regular Abductions, etc., missions, otherwise the game won't generate them.

You are mistaken, the game generates other missions normally. I wouldn't have been able to fight all the sectoids and mutons and floaters and so on if it didn't.

Code: [Select]
    width: 50
    length: 50
    height: 4
    civilians: 8
    terrains:
      - URBAN

Trying to set the terrain of the UFO as URBAN doesn't work since the game automatically gets the terrain from the location where the UFO has landed/crashed on Geoscape. But you can add civilians.

Again, this code *works*. I've tested this with the New Battle feature, even during my own testing of the mod, and I've tested it now that I've fixed my mod. Yes, I would be happier if I knew of another way of modding in terror-like missions but I don't so I'm stuck with this.

But thank you all for trying to help anyway.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 16, 2014, 04:37:55 pm
I see. But I've never met a single MiB during this game and then it seemed like I've finally got around to those laser rifles and then it seemed like I had to research them twice. Having the ufopedia entry and not having the actual weapons available added to my frustration. I guess not many people get to laser weapons purely by researching alien data slates plus captured aliens, so this behaviour is not that frequent.

OK, I agree, I'll change it back. If anyone complaints... well... please be there for me... :D

Actually, the second base defense was (almost) easy. I was expecting them, so I've stored lots of proximity mines and HE autocannon ammo and high explosives and I've only lost two guys and a rocket tank versus some 22 aliens. Not bad, for untrained garrison troops with no armor against mutons on ironman superhuman.

Congratz!

My own mod uses the same four itemlevels your mod uses - I've learned this lesson some time ago - so this should not be a problem. In fact I've even tested my mod with vanilla game and it causes no crashes even when I've defined four itemlevels. The vanilla game simply never uses the last itemlevel, making such a mod compatible with both 3- and 4-itemlevels mods.

Interesting. Well, it's not completely okay, since the enemies won't be using their best equipment, but it's still better than crashing.

Which is what has me so confused. Other than the new terrorship maps, there's seemingly no reason for that crash. Using the New Battle feature, I can even initiate a mission against such a ship using both your mod and mine and it works, so I see no other likely explanation. I've even tried to remove the terrain parts of my deployment rules, to make sure the game would load the terrain based on where the ship went down, and the game still crashes.

I'll leave this to you and Hobbes to figure out. :q There are many possible reasons for this particular error and I can't say much.

This mod is very cool :)

Yay, thanks! :D

How ever I have one thing to change/fix:
I just found what appears to be MiB Man in Black base or something  8)

(I just started playing FMP so please spoilers!)

1) At end there was a super thought guy, he took 5 shoots from sniper rifle, 5-6 shots from pistol, and finally a heavy laser shot took him... wtf? I mean, is that correct behaviour? I play on the 2nd hardness level (not the easiest but the next one)

2) I was looking forward to get research on all the recovered items, how ever I see no new research objects!
- I have 3 kinds of MiB corpses, they can't be researched?
For me it lacks narrative atmosphere like "whaaat the fuck was that?" moment in game, e.g. make a story telling research item (at minimal cost) that will show some information about how Xcom is puzzled by discovering MiB and all
- They where using some suits like black hazmats, I would expect to research them
- If I would had captured them alive (I didn't this time) it would be logical to hold them even without need for alien containment... technically maybe they could be stored as inventory?

Though it's a bit strange to hold man as item... though they were man in... BLACK, if you know what I mean  8)

These are all interesting issues. However, I think you should direct them to the mod's author, Robin, in this thread: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2180.0
Apart from a bit of changing weapon loadouts for MiB to make them consistent with the rest of FMP, I did nothing special to his mod, so I can't really talk about it much. But I can tell you there is a small research tree related to the MiB organization.

- There was alien nade, I don't see option to reseach it.

- What about all the laser weapons, no research here either?

It's not so easy, go interrogate some Engineers. :P

Of other things, the new weapons seem not all-right:
- the machines guns, and mini guns, all have INCREDIBLE spread, while being low powered. Maybe make them all a BIT less accurate at least.

By "spread" you mean "broad firing cone"? If so, why make them even less accurate?

The miniguns are already very inaccurate. And Heavy Machine Gun is so hard to use that making it any less accurate would make it useless, I guess. But of course these are balancing issues which are always up for dispute.

- the mini gun should really have a serious punch, maybe 40?  To compensate make it even heavier to handle

....why? It wouldn't be much of a minigun then, it would be some sort of a super-auto-cannon. Which would probably smear the user against the nearest wall. :q

- the submachine gun has not cool sound... see how it is in games like SWAT series.

Duly noted. I need to replace this sound, as well as the Magnum's. I just never got around to do that.

- make another a really cool submachine gun, like a cooler riffle, e.g. 4 shoots, at power like riffle -3, better aim, low weight

I thought about a PDW, which is somewhat like you described, but ultimately decided against it because there are so many weapons already. I might go back to the idea if people demand it though. :)

One of the files is wrongly names (you see this error on real OSes like Linux, that see difference between uppercase/lowercase in file names):

Resources/FinalModPack/Weapons_Compilation/ClassicWeapons/handob_UZI.png
should be:
Resources/FinalModPack/Weapons_Compilation/ClassicWeapons/HandOb_UZI.png
or the other way around (fix it in .res and the leave the file name as handob_UZI.png)

Ouch, sorry - it happens sometimes. I'll fix it ASAP.

Either way this mod is very cool, thanks! :)

Glad to hear that!

Solaris, unless you've adapted the Raider Ship for the FMP, on the Terrain Pack the Raider Ship shows up and it is possible to shoot it before it reaches its ground target. And the stats definitely are relevant there :)


..................
........
..........
....I'll be right back. :P

(Oh, and the next version will feature this: https://www.openxcom.com/mod/ironfist-dropship)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on August 16, 2014, 05:13:48 pm
Interesting. Well, it's not completely okay, since the enemies won't be using their best equipment, but it's still better than crashing.

I'm aware of this so I gave my modded aliens their best equipment on level 2 and copied it on level 3  :) I know, this means they'll be using their best equipment more often, but I see no other workaround that works.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 16, 2014, 05:45:09 pm
Version 0.9 is online.

It contains some nice stuff: the abovementioned dropship, the Tactical Lightning mod by x60mmx (making Lightning marginally useful), and of course some fixes/rebalancing.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Hobbes on August 16, 2014, 09:39:33 pm
You are mistaken, the game generates other missions normally. I wouldn't have been able to fight all the sectoids and mutons and floaters and so on if it didn't.

There are two types of missions generated by the game.

Abductions, Harvest, Alien Base, Infiltration and Research (the ones defined under regions) are randomly selected from a table according to their mission weights. Until the 6th month the game only chooses 1 random mission, afterwards it chooses two.

From my observations so far the game will not generate any these missions if you mod any of the regions and don't include the original missions. This happens because a mod that alters the mission weights completely replace the original mission weights rather than complement them.

Besides those missions, the game is hardcoded (i.e. can't be modded or altered) to generate a series of additional missions:
* A Sectoid Research mission on the 1st month, on the region where your base is located
* A terror mission each month
* Retaliation missions are possible in case UFOs are shot down.
* An additional retaliation mission is added either by reaching the end of 1999/2000 (month depends on the difficulty level) or by researching The Martian Solution.

This explains why you are seeing the original aliens as you mention.

I noticed this with my Terrain Pack since it adds 2 new missions and after a while I noticed that I hadn't gotten any Alien Base, Research, etc. after a game year and only Retaliation and Terror missions in addition to my new missions.

Again, this code *works*. I've tested this with the New Battle feature, even during my own testing of the mod, and I've tested it now that I've fixed my mod. Yes, I would be happier if I knew of another way of modding in terror-like missions but I don't so I'm stuck with this.

New Battle allows you to define the variables more freely (but also with a few restrictions of its own) than the campaign game. Since you added URBAN to the list of terrains it should appear available on New Battle but that doesn't mean that it will appear during the campaign game.

And here I am merely quoting from the ruleset documentation on the wiki (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Ruleset_Reference_(OpenXcom)#Alien_Deployments) that was written by the developers:
Quote
terrains   list of string IDs of the terrain to choose from to generate this map. This is not used for UFO sites where the terrain comes from the Geoscape.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on August 16, 2014, 11:53:28 pm
From my observations so far the game will not generate any these missions if you mod any of the regions and don't include the original missions. This happens because a mod that alters the mission weights completely replace the original mission weights rather than complement them.

OK, I'll look into this, but I don't think that's how it works. Right now I've tried to load my mod first, then the FMP and then I've started a new game. Possible missions in the savefile include both my missions and the FMP missions.

New Battle allows you to define the variables more freely (but also with a few restrictions of its own) than the campaign game. Since you added URBAN to the list of terrains it should appear available on New Battle but that doesn't mean that it will appear during the campaign game.

Feel free to download my savegame and my mod, you can test it yourself. The downed terror ship sits in a city terrain. Yes, I've read the reference guide too and yes, I'd hoped the UFO would use city terrain if landed and Geoscape-based terrain if downed. Turned out even the downed ship uses the ruleset-defined terrain.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on August 17, 2014, 01:09:44 am
The hover tanks dont have ufopedia page......
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 17, 2014, 01:40:02 am
The hover tanks dont have ufopedia page......

But they do :o
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Hobbes on August 17, 2014, 04:17:45 am
OK, I'll look into this, but I don't think that's how it works. Right now I've tried to load my mod first, then the FMP and then I've started a new game. Possible missions in the savefile include both my missions and the FMP missions.

My advice would be for you to ignore the FMP while developing and testing a mod - let Solaris worry about how everything gets integrated, otherwise you're limiting yourself and your mod by trying to get everything integrated. 

I may also be wrong about this assertion but I've played two or three games with my terrain pack where after a year I did not have a single alien base being built and never saw any Harvest/Abductions missions. And I'm not a code expert but from my limited understanding of code syntax some things replace the original ruleset while others complement it and on this case it seems to me it replaces the code.

Quote
Feel free to download my savegame and my mod, you can test it yourself. The downed terror ship sits in a city terrain. Yes, I've read the reference guide too and yes, I'd hoped the UFO would use city terrain if landed and Geoscape-based terrain if downed. Turned out even the downed ship uses the ruleset-defined terrain.

If you're telling me that you've also checked the reference than I have no reason not to believe you. It's simply something that I never tried doing myself and I'm glad I've learned something new since from my experience trying to use conditions originally designed for different missions usually does not work. And it makes sense that it always uses the Urban terrain regardless of being landed or crashed.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on August 17, 2014, 07:44:00 pm
I've managed to research and manufacture a Xcom CyberDisk tank. But it is fitted with a laser weapon.

It seems daft to me that I havent been able to unlock anything about Lasers yet I can use and manufacture laser cannons in this tank?

Oh the same thing applies to Plasma!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 17, 2014, 08:36:14 pm
I've managed to research and manufacture a Xcom CyberDisk tank. But it is fitted with a laser weapon.

It seems daft to me that I havent been able to unlock anything about Lasers yet I can use and manufacture laser cannons in this tank?

Oh the same thing applies to Plasma!

Hmmm... You're right. I can't remember the tree that well right now, but if it is like you say, than I'll have to do something about it.

Now, I wonder about adding Dioxine's Improved Living Quarters Mod (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2806.0). However, my main problem with this is:
- If I leave the current Living Quarters as they are (at 50 inhabitants), then the Improved Living Quarters would have to be something like 250 people. And that's way too much.
- If I do as Dioxine suggested and reduce normal Living Quarters to 25 beds (with reduced maintenance and cost) and set the big ones to 125, it would be much better, but some people here will put me on their hit list.
Any thoughts?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on August 17, 2014, 09:30:41 pm
Hmmm... You're right. I can't remember the tree that well right now, but if it is like you say, than I'll have to do something about it.

See your ruleset

Code: [Select]
  - name: STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC
    cost: 20
    points: 20
    dependencies:
      - STR_CYBERDISC_AUTOPSY
      - STR_ALIEN_ELECTRONICS
      - STR_UFO_NAVIGATION

I researched all of the above three dependencies.
Probably worth adding two dependencies, the laser cannon & plasma cannon?


Now, I wonder about adding Dioxine's Improved Living Quarters Mod (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2806.0). However, my main problem with this is:
- If I leave the current Living Quarters as they are (at 50 inhabitants), then the Improved Living Quarters would have to be something like 250 people. And that's way too much.
- If I do as Dioxine suggested and reduce normal Living Quarters to 25 beds (with reduced maintenance and cost) and set the big ones to 125, it would be much better, but some people here will put me on their hit list.
Any thoughts?


My personal opinion (dont know about the others), I would say it is unnecessary. Typically I build 2 Living quarters, to enable me to have 100 staff. More than enough for one base! So 125 staff as you propose makes sense...

But my major gripe is the fact of having 2x2 tiles, when it is normally 2 tiles to have 100 staff, is a massive loss of limited precious available space for building facilities in a base. I feel this would be a nuisance. unless a better balance is struck, this is most likely the area I would edit back to normal when using this mod. (Everything else is pretty spot on - well done Solar!)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 17, 2014, 10:06:01 pm
Now, I wonder about adding Dioxine's Improved Living Quarters Mod (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2806.0). However, my main problem with this is:
- If I leave the current Living Quarters as they are (at 50 inhabitants), then the Improved Living Quarters would have to be something like 250 people. And that's way too much.
- If I do as Dioxine suggested and reduce normal Living Quarters to 25 beds (with reduced maintenance and cost) and set the big ones to 125, it would be much better, but some people here will put me on their hit list.
Any thoughts?

The way I see it it's four steps forward and twenty five steps back.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 17, 2014, 10:58:14 pm
See your ruleset

Code: [Select]
  - name: STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC
    cost: 20
    points: 20
    dependencies:
      - STR_CYBERDISC_AUTOPSY
      - STR_ALIEN_ELECTRONICS
      - STR_UFO_NAVIGATION

I researched all of the above three dependencies.
Probably worth adding two dependencies, the laser cannon & plasma cannon?

Yeah, it should be fine...

Maybe I should add another, with a heavy machine gun? :)

My personal opinion (dont know about the others), I would say it is unnecessary. Typically I build 2 Living quarters, to enable me to have 100 staff. More than enough for one base! So 125 staff as you propose makes sense...

But my major gripe is the fact of having 2x2 tiles, when it is normally 2 tiles to have 100 staff, is a massive loss of limited precious available space for building facilities in a base. I feel this would be a nuisance. unless a better balance is struck, this is most likely the area I would edit back to normal when using this mod. (Everything else is pretty spot on - well done Solar!)

Yes, it would make things a bit harder. Still, I wonder if it's so bad. Having a bigger facility has its positive sides, like shorter building time than 4 separate blocks.

I wonder if we could leave the basic one at 50 and make the big one 150 or so, and also give it some storing capacity to make up for the increased surface? It would be the "casual" setup, since you could not build the big quarters if you didn't want to, and still play as before.

The way I see it it's four steps forward and twenty five steps back.

I'll take it as a no. :P

(But it's so pretty...)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on August 17, 2014, 11:05:12 pm
Yeah, it should be fine...

Maybe I should add another, with a heavy machine gun? :)

Good idea!! I just realised, if adding plasma weapons and laser weapons as a prequisite, this would pose a problem, it means both of these technologies would have to be researched to produce a Cyberdisc??? A little reshuffle of the research items may be required to divide these items into two?

Or perhaps, as you say, add Heavy machine gun or Cannon Cyberdisc, then this would act as a prequisite item required to research for laser or plasma cyberdisc?

Yes, it would make things a bit harder. Still, I wonder if it's so bad. Having a bigger facility has its positive sides, like shorter building time than 4 separate blocks.

I wonder if we could leave the basic one at 50 and make the big one 150 or so, and also give it some storing capacity to make up for the increased surface? It would be the "casual" setup, since you could not build the big quarters if you didn't want to, and still play as before.


Good idea..... that would make me consider it seriously.

 See what others think then!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on August 17, 2014, 11:06:41 pm
My advice would be for you to ignore the FMP while developing and testing a mod - let Solaris worry about how everything gets integrated, otherwise you're limiting yourself and your mod by trying to get everything integrated.

I've ignored it at first and my mod worked fine. Then I've tested it with the mods like Alien Armory and FMP and it *seemed* to work fine. But then my experiements changes mod loading order and the bug manifested itself. The mod worked as a standalone mod with the vanilla game. But when I've loaded a mod with four itemlevels (such as the FMP) *after* my own mod, FMP's alienItemLevels replaced my own and the missing fourth item level for one of the alien ranks caused the crash.

So I do agree that a mod should first be able to work alone. But then I've had to try to make sure it would also work with the other mods people use. All I can do now is wait for other bugs to show up.

I may also be wrong about this assertion but I've played two or three games with my terrain pack where after a year I did not have a single alien base being built and never saw any Harvest/Abductions missions. And I'm not a code expert but from my limited understanding of code syntax some things replace the original ruleset while others complement it and on this case it seems to me it replaces the code.

Like I said, I'll try to look into this, though I'm afraid it won't be today. I'll post my results once I've learned more.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on August 17, 2014, 11:25:20 pm
Now, I wonder about adding Dioxine's Improved Living Quarters Mod (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2806.0). However, my main problem with this is:
- If I leave the current Living Quarters as they are (at 50 inhabitants), then the Improved Living Quarters would have to be something like 250 people. And that's way too much.
- If I do as Dioxine suggested and reduce normal Living Quarters to 25 beds (with reduced maintenance and cost) and set the big ones to 125, it would be much better, but some people here will put me on their hit list.
Any thoughts?

I have no reason to put anyone on a hit list, every mod author is free to create whatever they wish. However... I would mod the basic living quarters back to 50 if you went the 25 beds route.

Maintenance costs are almost never an issue, the most limiting aspect of base design is the limited space. My main base usually has ~190 to 240 people and needing 8 to 10 tiles instead of 4 or 5 for Living Quarters would make me too unhappy. I'm already unable to place in sufficient base defenses and four more tiles is too high a price.



Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on August 17, 2014, 11:35:17 pm
Yeah, it should be fine...

Maybe I should add another, with a heavy machine gun? :)


This is the temporary fix for Xcom cyberdisc.

In my case, xcom cyberdisc becomes researchable. When researched, nothing happens! Presumably, manufacturing department will confirm this can be manufactured when laser or plasma has been researched. This may baffle other users though!

Code: [Select]
  - id: STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC_LASER
    type_id: 3
    section: STR_HEAVY_WEAPONS_PLATFORMS
    weapon: STR_LASER_CANNON
    requires:
      - STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC
      - STR_LASER_WEAPONS
    text: STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC_LASER_UFOPEDIA
    listOrder: 1450
  - id: STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC_PLASMA
    type_id: 3
    section: STR_HEAVY_WEAPONS_PLATFORMS
    weapon: STR_PLASMA_CANNON
    requires:
      - STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC
      - STR_PLASMA_WEAPONS
    text: STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC_PLASMA_UFOPEDIA
    listOrder: 1451

Another point to note, "STR_ALIEN_DATA_SLATE: Alien Data Slate".... I am able to constantly research this item over and over and over again till I received all of the information. Was this intentional? Or would it be better that this object is to be destroyed once researched?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 18, 2014, 12:02:04 am
Good idea!! I just realised, if adding plasma weapons and laser weapons as a prequisite, this would pose a problem, it means both of these technologies would have to be researched to produce a Cyberdisc??? A little reshuffle of the research items may be required to divide these items into two?

Or perhaps, as you say, add Heavy machine gun or Cannon Cyberdisc, then this would act as a prequisite item required to research for laser or plasma cyberdisc?

Yeah, I'll go that route. Thanks for the input!

But when I've loaded a mod with four itemlevels (such as the FMP) *after* my own mod, FMP's alienItemLevels replaced my own and the missing fourth item level for one of the alien ranks caused the crash.

So I do agree that a mod should first be able to work alone. But then I've had to try to make sure it would also work with the other mods people use. All I can do now is wait for other bugs to show up.

If this really is the case, then there's nothing we can do - the mods won't get any more compatible.

Perhaps creating 4 levels was a bad idea... But it was hard to fit everything into 3, and I wanted more control over what gets unlocked when.

I have no reason to put anyone on a hit list, every mod author is free to create whatever they wish. However... I would mod the basic living quarters back to 50 if you went the 25 beds route.

Maintenance costs are almost never an issue, the most limiting aspect of base design is the limited space. My main base usually has ~190 to 240 people and needing 8 to 10 tiles instead of 4 or 5 for Living Quarters would make me too unhappy. I'm already unable to place in sufficient base defenses and four more tiles is too high a price.

OK, I'll do it the soft way then... And maybe provide an additional ruleset for those who want more challenge? I'm not sure if it's necessary.

This is the temporary fix for Xcom cyberdisc.

In my case, xcom cyberdisc becomes researchable. When researched, nothing happens! Presumably, manufacturing department will confirm this can be manufactured when laser or plasma has been researched. This may baffle other users though!

Code: [Select]
  - id: STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC_LASER
    type_id: 3
    section: STR_HEAVY_WEAPONS_PLATFORMS
    weapon: STR_LASER_CANNON
    requires:
      - STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC
      - STR_LASER_WEAPONS
    text: STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC_LASER_UFOPEDIA
    listOrder: 1450
  - id: STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC_PLASMA
    type_id: 3
    section: STR_HEAVY_WEAPONS_PLATFORMS
    weapon: STR_PLASMA_CANNON
    requires:
      - STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC
      - STR_PLASMA_WEAPONS
    text: STR_XCOM_CYBERDISC_PLASMA_UFOPEDIA
    listOrder: 1451

Yeah, it'd work, but I think a Cyberdisc/Cannon would be more understandable from the user's point of view. Unless you think it's a bad idea?

Another point to note, "STR_ALIEN_DATA_SLATE: Alien Data Slate".... I am able to constantly research this item over and over and over again till I received all of the information. Was this intentional? Or would it be better that this object is to be destroyed once researched?

Crap.

Well, it should work well with the "completed research destroys the item" option turned on... Which is why I haven't noticed until now.

I may be forced to remove this. :( This is just a helping hand to get plasmas anyway.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on August 18, 2014, 12:07:04 am
Hmmm... You're right. I can't remember the tree that well right now, but if it is like you say, than I'll have to do something about it.

Now, I wonder about adding Dioxine's Improved Living Quarters Mod (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2806.0). However, my main problem with this is:
- If I leave the current Living Quarters as they are (at 50 inhabitants), then the Improved Living Quarters would have to be something like 250 people. And that's way too much.
- If I do as Dioxine suggested and reduce normal Living Quarters to 25 beds (with reduced maintenance and cost) and set the big ones to 125, it would be much better, but some people here will put me on their hit list.
Any thoughts?
The problem in my base is the size. I use the defend base. This is the 3 hangar in front. And the 3 line empty. Only the acces base. My problem is the space. And i prefer put 4 living quarters and have 200 people. Normally 100 sci 30 soldiers and the rest engi. 2 laboratory 2 workspace. The radar sistem 4 stores the defenses and the mental defense and the live alien fac. This facility for me is a lol. totally unnecesary

Pd: a facility that use 2 square and give 125 ex. More expensive may be interesting or a combo 100 lives and storage may be interesting.

Pdd: A facilty with 4 squares eq to 200 lives and a storage may be interesting
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on August 18, 2014, 12:12:07 am
Yeah, it'd work, but I think a Cyberdisc/Cannon would be more understandable from the user's point of view. Unless you think it's a bad idea?

Makes complete sense, I agree with you there. Doesn't leave the users confused going "WHERE'S MY BL&&DY CYBERDISC"!
The amended code is just so that I can carry on with using the mod being played as it should be played.

Crap.

Well, it should work well with the "completed research destroys the item" option turned on... Which is why I haven't noticed until now.

I may be forced to remove this. :( This is just a helping hand to get plasmas anyway.

It seems like a good idea though, maybe suggest that the mod is to be run with "destroy item when researched"?

P.S. I'm in first year May now and haven't got to Plasmas/Laser/Guass just yet! Though I'm furiously working on trying to stun much aliens I can, with nav/medic/engineer being a bonus if it happens!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on August 18, 2014, 12:16:56 am
If this really is the case, then there's nothing we can do - the mods won't get any more compatible.

Perhaps creating 4 levels was a bad idea... But it was hard to fit everything into 3, and I wanted more control over what gets unlocked when.

Ummm... The mods are perfectly compatible now. And using four itemlevels is a good idea too, I would have used it myself if I didn't wish to maintain compatibility with the vanilla ruleset. So other people can do what I did, i.e. define four itemlevels even when they don't need them. The fourth level causes no crashes with vanilla ruleset and comes into play if you use four levels.

This whole mess came into being because I forgot to copy one itemlevel for one alien rank. And it didn't show up during my first testing because it was dependent on mod loading order.

Would I like a better system for defining alien loadouts? Yes. But we don't have one at the moment and I don't have one I could propose so I'll simply have to be more careful in the future.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on August 18, 2014, 08:37:45 pm
The big living quarters aren't for everyone, especially with limited personnel cap (my idea was you don't need a 50-man living quarters for a radar base, 25 men are more than enough so why waste cash?); certainly not for defensive base setups. I'm personally using an "assault" base setup, which is much alike defensive in regard for 3 hangars on top, only with the difference of 4 (instead of 1) access points to storm the hangars by turn 3-4 in a three-pronged attack (sides proceed faster, the central group naturally slower, as it has to clear the lift), and no space wasted on defensive systems of any kind (and that's a LOT of space), so I have no problem running 300-personnel main base in the vanilla (150 sci, 100 engineers).

So with my setup, 2 big living quarters provide 250 personnel (forcing me to stop myself at 2 labs), that's 8 space, +hangars = 20 space, + labs&workshops = 24 space, +HWD&containment = 26 space, +2x psi lab = 28, +lift = 29, leaving me with 5 tiles for stores or whatever (2 tiles on the sides of the lift must stay empty).

The idea was to both make radar bases cheaper and force the player to spread research and workshops across 2-5 bases. But it would force less turtling and everyone should be entitled to turtling if they like so :) Especially since it DOES make the game harder.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Avalanche on August 19, 2014, 12:50:56 am
So, I'm not sure if this has been addressed yet, but I'm getting crashes whenever I research any living Hybrid. There's no error window brought up, just an immediate CTD whenever I finish the research on a captive. It doesn't apply to researching a Hybrid corpse.

The only mods I'm using besides FMP are the No Psyonics, Improved Ground Tanks, and Improved Heavy Lasers options. Anyone else have this problem or know how to fix it?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Bfox on August 19, 2014, 06:46:10 am
Need to lodge an issue with the cyberdisc mod/research in general.

I'm playing a game on ironman/superman and I just got the cyberdisc plasma platform.  I happily made it thinking it would help me take out aliens even better than my old tank/laser however I remembered how poorly it went when I made the laser cyberdisc.

These things are so weak that it's ridiculous not only that the worst thing that could happen happened. 

https://imgur.com/BVsI6EE (https://imgur.com/BVsI6EE)

Disaster.

So here's the backstory;
 - Mission start, move cyberdisc out MiB agent reaction shot lands cyberdisc implodes with one f**king shot
 - I laugh at my misfortune thinking it couldn't happen twice
 - Move out my next cyberdisc and it is once again reactioned on and after one hit explodes killing my entire team all my armor and weapons
https://imgur.com/wM2kmOY (https://imgur.com/wM2kmOY)

 - Leaving me with 3 squaddies to clean up

https://i.imgur.com/UTxFxcu.png (https://i.imgur.com/UTxFxcu.png)

Here's my problem why is the cyberdisc so f**king weak? It's alien technology refurbished yet our human tanks can take 10x the beating and they don't implode and murder any nearby friendly's to make matters worse.

This really need to be rebalanced they need equal armor to tanks or more to be a viable asset.  Not to mention it takes a cyberdisc corpse to make these and they havn't been around in my game since the first 3 months so I have no way to farm them back.

This is a huge balance issue in my opinion and needs to be looked at.

A double-edged sword should not be so easily taken down.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 19, 2014, 07:54:25 am
The Cyberdisc is exactly the same as its alien counterpart. After all, this is the same thing, just reprogrammed. Yeah, it's not too badass, but I can't make it any better without compromising logic.

As for the hybrid crash, I'll certainly look at it within 48 hours.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Bfox on August 19, 2014, 08:11:25 am
Figured that would be the response sorry for over-reacting but it is painful to lose your entire squad to that.
Shouldn't they at least be able to take more than one hit? Or at least disable the huge explosion it does if that's even possible?

It just seems kind of silly to use something that has a chance to kill your entire crew if you get unlucky.


Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 19, 2014, 08:17:42 am
Figured that would be the response sorry for over-reacting but it is painful to lose your entire squad to that.
Shouldn't they at least be able to take more than one hit? Or at least disable the huge explosion it does if that's even possible?

It just seems kind of silly to use something that has a chance to kill your entire crew if you get unlucky.

Well, in the original game you could easily be killed by a Blaster Bomb after your first turn... This is not the case in Openxcom, but it's still a mean game, and that's why we love it. :q

But more constructively, I think it's mostly a matter of tactics. The Cyberdisc is not a tank, rather a flying heavy weapon platform. Since you're using an Avenger (and most people will have Avenger or at least Ironfist by the time they employ Cyberdiscs), you have some freedom in what goes out first.. So you don't have to expose your Cyberdisc to too much danger. With Skyrangers it's not so easy of course.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Day on August 20, 2014, 11:57:12 am
Hi guys :-)

french newbie here.
First, let me thank the openxcom devs, i am amazed of the game quality :-)
Next, kudos to the FMP team, it certainly add great flavour :-p

I'm playing it for two weeks now and like it a lot. It's the 0.7 version.
I'm a fan of the small launcher and the stun bombs, and never saw them appear in the research; so I went to look into the FMP ruleset.
The string defining the launcher is botched (spaces and no STR_ at the beginning).

Hope this helps you :-)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 20, 2014, 12:06:14 pm
Hi Day, welcome to the forums!

(Did you know that FMP at first stood for French Mod Pack? :)) )

Anyway, thanks for the message, but I think I fixed this long ago - it's 0.9 now, and it looks fine to me.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Day on August 20, 2014, 12:28:33 pm
Hi Solarius, thank you :-)

Oh yes, that's right, I read that somewhere. Well, if you're in Paris, I owe you a beer :D

Hmm, ok I'll do an update; thanks :-)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on August 21, 2014, 07:21:43 am
Hmm. After a couple of games {and some ruleset digging}, I think I've figured out what it is that frustrates me so much. Namely, that a lot of tech advances, even the crucial ones, are dependent on acquiring specific aliens. That, in turn, is dependent on the game's own whim - for example, you can't research power armor until you've researched the Cybermite, which only spawns with Anthropods, which in turn may or may not show up in the game at all, depending on how the game decides to roll the dice for active species. While, in theory, this can be circumvented by capturing various medics, those appear far too infrequently to be a practical solution.

So, my suggestion would be to increase the frequency at which medics and engineers spawn in small ships, as those appear to be {intentionally or not?} the vast majority of craft that tend to spawn, replacing some of the navigators, especially as those are generally worthless when it comes to research. Keeping leaders limited to larger ships is still good, as they are guaranteed to spawn there.

Another option, though more labor-intensive, would be to adapt the tech tree to make use of "junk" rank aliens - researching a soldier, or navigator, for example, gives one free hidden prerequisite for one of the techs granted by other ranks. That way, quantity can become a quality, so even though the random chance of getting the kind of captures you want may or may not be on your side, investing into both capturing and researching enough of the ones that are guaranteed to spawn will eventually get you where you need to be.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: guille1434 on August 21, 2014, 05:49:39 pm
Some issues report: after unlocking the manufacture of the Hovertanks, they are available to be manufactured, and deplyed in the battlescape, but they don't show in the ufopedia... I think this has to do with the ufopedia section requisites: I read that "New Fighter Craft" is a requisite... This ufopedia requisite is different from the research requisite. Also in the same ufopedia section, the entry for the Hovertank Launcher seems to be incomplete, because it shows only the id line and nothing else...


Another problem: immediately after finishing the research on a captured "Hybrid Agent" alien, tha game crashes (The "view report" screen does not show before the program shuts down. If one has that alien unit "conained" in the base without researching on it, or while it is being researched, there seem to be no problem, the same when you sell that alien, there is no crash. But immediately after finishing the reserach, something cause the program to crash.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on August 21, 2014, 08:57:27 pm
Most likely there isn't proper Pedia entry for the creature/race (depending where the research topics directs), or misplaced picture in said entry.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 21, 2014, 09:13:43 pm
This part is missing from the research:

Code: [Select]
  - name: STR_HYBRID
    cost: 0
    points: 50
    needItem: true

I'll fix it tonight.

As for the alien interrogations, at this moment I do not plan any major changes to the tech tree... I am more thinking about making early game easier, but this requires some work.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: the_third_curry on August 22, 2014, 06:49:09 am
Hey Solarius, congratulations on overtaking the project founder himself for most forum posts.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 22, 2014, 08:07:07 am
Hey Solarius, congratulations on overtaking the project founder himself for most forum posts.

Thanks, but I'm only an administrator, he's the founder. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on August 22, 2014, 03:30:00 pm
i think he talked about SupSuper
you are a board administrator?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 22, 2014, 03:42:36 pm
i think he talked about SupSuper
you are a board administrator?

I thought he meant Human Ktulu, who started the FMP...
...but I'm not so sure right now. :D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: the_third_curry on August 22, 2014, 06:13:45 pm
I thought he meant Human Ktulu, who started the FMP...
...but I'm not so sure right now. :D

I meant SupSuper. You now have the most posts of anyone on the forum:

https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?action=stats
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: chi.code on August 23, 2014, 05:36:25 pm
Ok I found a small bug, the gauss-cannon rounds(x50) for craft, are placed in Weapons instead in Ammunition.

Btw: for Gauss HWP, it's shells are produced one by one, and 60 are needed... you need to produce 60 individual pieces of ammo before deploying the tank, is that intended? It takes almost as long as producing the tank itself afair.

Maybe it should come in packages of 10 shells per produced item, or maybe it could deploy with 30 instead.

Also, an option to deploy not fully armed tanks would be nice imo.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: chi.code on August 23, 2014, 05:44:30 pm
Ok I found a small bug, the gauss-cannon rounds(x50) for craft, are placed in Weapons instead in Ammunition.

Btw: for Gauss HWP, it's shells are produced one by one, and 60 are needed... you need to produce 60 individual pieces of ammo before deploying the tank, is that intended? It takes almost as long as producing the tank itself afair.

Maybe it should come in packages of 10 shells per produced item, or maybe it could deploy with 30 instead.

Also, an option to deploy not fully armed tanks would be nice imo.

This:
https://imgur.com/PfXkbNq

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Bfox on August 23, 2014, 08:55:30 pm
I tried updating the FMP ruleset due to the hybrid research crashing bug but it doesn't allow me to change it, is there a known workaround for this?  It won't let me save it even if I use administrative rights.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: chi.code on August 23, 2014, 10:25:01 pm
Game crashes when researching Hybrid Supervisor.

Please do fix it.
Also will my save game with that research already in progress work when fix is released and I install it?

EDIT:

Run the mode through modtester.

"lookup: STR_HYBRID" entry but no research: name: STR_HYBRID entry

(thanks Falko)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 24, 2014, 12:04:29 am
Ok I found a small bug, the gauss-cannon rounds(x50) for craft, are placed in Weapons instead in Ammunition.

Ugh, I thought I've fixed this ages ago... Are you sure you're using the latest version? I have no access to the files right now...

Btw: for Gauss HWP, it's shells are produced one by one, and 60 are needed... you need to produce 60 individual pieces of ammo before deploying the tank, is that intended? It takes almost as long as producing the tank itself afair.

Maybe it should come in packages of 10 shells per produced item, or maybe it could deploy with 30 instead.

While I can't change the mechanics of HWP deployment, I will check if the ammo can't be produced any faster.

Also, an option to deploy not fully armed tanks would be nice imo.

The devs have spoken nd said it would be too easy. I am in no position to argue with them... :)

I tried updating the FMP ruleset due to the hybrid research crashing bug but it doesn't allow me to change it, is there a known workaround for this?  It won't let me save it even if I use administrative rights.

This is something way beyond the scope of my knowledge, and certainly not a problem concerning the mod itself, but I think you should be able to do this if you copy the file to some other location (not in the Program Files folder), edit it and then copy it back. Or just move the entire Openxcom folder to another location, because Program Files sucks.

Game crashes when researching Hybrid Supervisor.

Please do fix it.

Yep, working on it. Sadly, this particular part of the mod is really beta... I probably shouldn't have included it yet.

Also will my save game with that research already in progress work when fix is released and I install it?

No, it should be fine. Should.

EDIT:

Run the mode through modtester.

"lookup: STR_HYBRID" entry but no research: name: STR_HYBRID entry

(thanks Falko)

Yes, that's exactly the case. A few posts ago I explained how to fix it, and soon I'll release a new version.

Thanks for all the feedback!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Bfox on August 24, 2014, 12:24:24 am
Thanks for your hard work :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 24, 2014, 02:11:22 pm
I'm just uploading 0.9.1, which contains the fixes, and also add two new features: Dioxine's big Living Quarters (the starting base now has them!) and NeoWorm's Alloy Sword.

Now it's time to get to work on 0.9.2! :)

(BTW would anyone be able to help drawing new armours?)



EDIT:

Guess what, 0.9.2 is online. :P I just had to.
(It adds Laser Shotgun, because smexyvami asked me nicely, and also depowers the Alloy Sword which was way too deadly for something not made of lightsaber stuff.)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Bfox on August 24, 2014, 09:14:02 pm
Well I finally beat XCOM with the FMP mod pack last night on superman/ironman - was very challenging I had to turn Psi to line of sight only to manage.  I lost like 3 squads to ethereals (rip in pieces)

It was very - very challenging I literally had to do the last mission with a bunch of rookies and mostly launchers/launcher tanks and 2 guys that had their psi skill strong enough to make the psi-amp very handy.

By the way is it normal that your save game is deleted when you play on ironman and finish the game?  I assume that's by design.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 24, 2014, 11:46:55 pm
Congratulations, Bfox! As far as I know, you are the first to achieve this. I therefore have the honour to bestow the rank of First Final Commander on you!

As far as deleting the save goes, I have no idea. But other people probably do.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: chi.code on August 25, 2014, 03:30:42 am

I have 150 ele, build the fastest interceptor, have heavy gauss, I fight ethereals now..
and still I can't research plasma weapons! is that normal? I have no more reseach subjects, did power suply, navigation, ofc. alloys, corps of sect float ether, captured live aliens (but not high levels yet).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MeatLoaf on August 25, 2014, 07:25:11 am
I have 150 ele, build the fastest interceptor, have heavy gauss, I fight ethereals now..
and still I can't research plasma weapons! is that normal? I have no more reseach subjects, did power suply, navigation, ofc. alloys, corps of sect float ether, captured live aliens (but not high levels yet).
You need to capture a sectoid/snakeman/etheral/muton/floater of rank engineer or above. 3 other pre-requisites just say "need item" which I assume refers to the data slates.

/edit I find it a little odd that we are not allowed to use these captured weapons until we know how to perfectly recreate them, surely you only need to know what the buttons do, how to load it and how to fire it?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 25, 2014, 07:59:30 am
You need to capture a sectoid/snakeman/etheral/muton/floater of rank engineer or above. 3 other pre-requisites just say "need item" which I assume refers to the data slates.

Yes. Actually, the data slate gives the same stuff as the aliens; I just wanted a secondary system, for people who really hate capturing aliens (but these slates are rare).

/edit I find it a little odd that we are not allowed to use these captured weapons until we know how to perfectly recreate them, surely you only need to know what the buttons do, how to load it and how to fire it?

You'll know why when you you have researched it. :) I basically went with Hobbes' explanation, as used in his Unknown Menace novel.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on August 25, 2014, 09:21:32 am
Hi!

I play OXC with the final mod pack and it is nice! I feel like if I am a little child again who played X-com on his old 386 pc :)

But a few questions popped in my mind during these two days I play (in game it is december now and have about 56million $):

- What is the exact rank pre-requisite of plasma weaponry? Leaders of Sectoid\Snakeman and Anthropod just gave me a short entry how the elerium-reaction works in the weapons but no access for the weapon research. Already have laser- and gauss-weapons and toxigun (what I have ammo but I can not research it for some reason)...

- What do I need for small launcher? Already researched the stun- and elerium-ammo but the launcher is not appeared for research and thus I can not use it in combat.

- What about spitters? I have 4 different corpse in my storages but my scientists can not research them as an autopsy. And all of them have the display of a combat knife in battlescape inventory! Is this a bug?

- MiB. I met them only one time in form of a landed very large ship. They were chicken against my laser- and gauss-rifle troops (just like Mutons). How often do they appear? Where could I find them or how could I research them? I have recovered some data slate or what from them along with tons of corpses. Can these be researched at all or it is free to sell them?

- Floaters are intentionally so rare? During ~110 UFOs only a very small contained Floater so far! No bases, crashes or terrors! But I met tons of Sectoids and Chitons or what those yellow Gillmans called...

- It is just me or Sectoids really became thougher as time passes? At the beginning a rifle shot killed them but lately they need 2 direct shots from laser rifle or gauss rifle (it means 100-140 delivered damage as a minimum - yes, I use the TFTD damage system!).

- And could be shared a tech-tree or a rank table? I do not clear about the new alien ranks like grunt and packmaster! I captured Anthropod grunt, soldier, packmaster and leader and I do not know what is the real difference between them since none of them told anything usefull...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MeatLoaf on August 25, 2014, 10:04:11 am
Hi!

I play OXC with the final mod pack and it is nice! I feel like if I am a little child again who played X-com on his old 386 pc :)

But a few questions popped in my mind during these two days I play (in game it is december now and have about 56million $):

- What is the exact rank pre-requisite of plasma weaponry? Leaders of Sectoid\Snakeman and Anthropod just gave me a short entry how the elerium-reaction works in the weapons but no access for the weapon research. Already have laser- and gauss-weapons and toxigun (what I have ammo but I can not research it for some reason)...

- What do I need for small launcher? Already researched the stun- and elerium-ammo but the launcher is not appeared for research and thus I can not use it in combat.
I can't research the small launcher ammo types, but I do have the launcher done :p

As for the Plasma weapons you need to capture any rank other than soldier... Be warned though there are 4 different tech lines you need to run up to get the plasma weapons.

Hobbes story, do I have to buy it somewhere or is there a link to it?

/edit the only workable tech upgrades I have completed (100 scientists, May) personal armor raven/alloy sky ranger and dart gun/type A :) I have had to learn alot of new load outs/tactics for the early game.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on August 25, 2014, 10:47:55 am
Cut the authors some slack, the FMP research tree is still bugged, because of how huge it is (and shifting all the time);

- Rare sightings of some aliens. This doesn't have to be by design. With around 10 alien races available, and only about 2 missions per month (3 from the fall 1999 onwards), and the fact some missions go by undetected as they're happening far away, some aliens WILL be hard to encounter in some games due to random factor.

- Hobbes' novels are available on fanfiction.net. Good stuff but they're HUGE so reserve a lot of time :)

- Aliens do get their stats boosted as the time passes (Health, Accuracy, Reactions, TUs, Strength), as well as getting higher stats based on the diff level. This still seems strange with TFTD damage formula in force...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: SIMON on August 25, 2014, 01:44:29 pm
Yep I agree as I'm into April on my current game and have only encountered Floaters, Reapers & Sectoids so far. Took me til the middle of March to get any weapon better than convential ones except for Railguns. Exciting times and stuff ahead though. As the mod says it is very heavily influenced by live alien capture. Without psi abilitiess this would have been extremely hard but for the Batman mod I've also got going, gives your cock eyed rookies a chance. Also it helped to tweak the Xcom1 and Final Mod .rul files in respect to facilities and Xcom craft and intial starting stats of troops.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Bfox on August 25, 2014, 09:09:00 pm
Once you get the Elerium Mace you basically need to zerg rush aliens (I had to use this over the dart rifle as I couldn't for a long time get any of the upgraded clips) you basically have to not care about your soldiers and capture as many as feasible.

This is much much easier in confined spaces (like UFO's/bases etc.) until you get engineer's then they unlock some sort of ocular implant research for plasma weapons I'm not sure what other research you need to get this but this is what opened it up finally for me.

For a long time I was just using Gauss weapons. 

Ethereal's are just insane you basically have to hide your entire squad in the sky-ranger and pray your HWP's can clean up the outlying ones so you can capture some inside the UFO's and zerg rush stun them (sometimes these bastards take three stun hits)

Once you get the psi-amp though and train up some strong psi users the game becomes exponentially easier to mind control / drop equipment and capture.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on August 25, 2014, 09:51:37 pm
What's happening with the Alien Data Slate, seeing this remains researchable forever with one item with the latesst version you uploaded?

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 26, 2014, 12:12:58 am
Took me a while to respond, I was working on graphic resources for the Commercial tileset (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2358.msg30404#msg30404) and you know how it is... I need a break from FMP once in a while. :)

As for the aliens' appearance, it's largely a matter of random numbers. Each campaign is different in this regard; sometimes I mostly fight Floaters, and another time I almost never see them. That's normal.

Hobbes' novel can be found here (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=2027.555;last_msg=30509). Read it.

Also it helped to tweak the Xcom1 and Final Mod .rul files in respect to facilities and Xcom craft and intial starting stats of troops.

Care to elaborate on what exactly you changed? I'm curious!

Once you get the Elerium Mace you basically need to zerg rush aliens (I had to use this over the dart rifle as I couldn't for a long time get any of the upgraded clips) you basically have to not care about your soldiers and capture as many as feasible.

This is much much easier in confined spaces (like UFO's/bases etc.) until you get engineer's then they unlock some sort of ocular implant research for plasma weapons I'm not sure what other research you need to get this but this is what opened it up finally for me.

For a long time I was just using Gauss weapons. 

Ethereal's are just insane you basically have to hide your entire squad in the sky-ranger and pray your HWP's can clean up the outlying ones so you can capture some inside the UFO's and zerg rush stun them (sometimes these bastards take three stun hits)

Once you get the psi-amp though and train up some strong psi users the game becomes exponentially easier to mind control / drop equipment and capture.

Yep, all valid tactical advice! Though it should be added that the Stun Rod, while weaker, has one advantage over the Elerium Mace: it always hits.

And man, kudos for even fighting Ethereals with no decent weapons... :)

What's happening with the Alien Data Slate, seeing this remains researchable forever with one item with the latesst version you uploaded?

It appears that you need to enable the "item is destroyed on research" option to prevent this cheat. I need to include it in the mod description.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Avalanche on August 26, 2014, 12:38:38 am
I always found the maces to be too much of a hassle to be worth it. Their hit rate is so abysmal that you're much better off with the stun rod.

Personally, I used the stun grenades quite a bit. It took me forever to research the launcher, but I got the grenades really early. Stronger than the stun rod and the dart gun, and the blast radius makes them much easier to actually use than either.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: SIMON on August 26, 2014, 02:28:45 am
I increased the speed of some of the craft, made Avalanche, Fusion Ball and Stormlance 6 ammo. As I was getting creamed on Superhuman changed all but access lift in base facilities to 1 day construction, $1000 to build/maintain and their capacity. I also reduced the cost of soldiers, scienctists & engineers dramatically. Initially I only changed FA and REACTION stats for new troops til I had 25 over each of 8 bases. The game may seem too easy now to some players but I think it's still a challenge as I've lost a troop even with all the tweaking. On a further point are live hybrid important in the long term and bigger picture as the game crashes if you research one, you can research a corspe though. Is this a bug as I know this point has already been raised. See my attached save file.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 26, 2014, 11:02:38 am
No offense to you Solar, but did you even test the Hybrids or did you just slap them into FMP and call it a day? Most of the bug reports here are about the Hybrids now.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 26, 2014, 11:43:29 am
Thanks SIMON.

What version are you using? The hybrid problem was fixed two releases ago (or was it?).

No offense to you Solar, but did you even test the Hybrids or did you just slap them into FMP and call it a day? Most of the bug reports here are about the Hybrids now.

I slapped them into FMP, tested with debug, tested some quick Battles and then called it a day. :P The research part was not tested and I forgot to add one entry... But it should be fine now, no?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MeatLoaf on August 26, 2014, 01:17:59 pm
Okay so I have a confession to make, as I said earlier I've had to learn a lot of new tactics while playing this mod. One of my tactics involves not botherin to research aliens until I have the important stuff... even though all of my troops have the dart rifle in their back packs :/

2 missions later I have every single rank of sectoid and chtont (sp lol) and a tunlun across my bases. Oh HAI gauss tech :)

Also you weren't wrong about hobbes' work being long but worth the read :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: SIMON on August 26, 2014, 01:44:43 pm
I'm currently running of the nighty of 08/21/2014 11:20 and using version 0.9 of the final mod pack. An interesting thing happened last night, one of bases had to do a defense vs Ethereals in April, is this just another random part of the mod as I thought Ethereals didn't appear til @ least June!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 26, 2014, 02:00:44 pm
I'm currently running of the nighty of 08/21/2014 11:20 and using version 0.9 of the final mod pack.

Yeah, that one's still buggy, please use 0.9.1 o better yet 0.9.2.

An interesting thing happened last night, one of bases had to do a defense vs Ethereals in April, is this just another random part of the mod as I thought Ethereals didn't appear til @ least June!

Yeah, I'm afraid Alien Retaliation don't seem to respect the timetables! This can be extremely nasty, true. I can't do anything about this...

By the way, with the next version armour overhaul will finally start. I will add an alloy version of the human combat armour and move Personal Armour a bit higher on the tech tree. I will also balance the Personal Armour and Power Suit a bit; while I didn't want to change the original stuff, I need to do something about them if we want to get anywhere with potential alternatives. Don't worry, they won't get any worse in most respects, and I think they'll overall be even better.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 26, 2014, 02:09:58 pm
Don't worry, they won't get any worse in most respects, and I think they'll overall be even better.
Solar, Buffing something? No way. I should go back to bed. When I wake up everything will be back to normal and the Personal Armor will require two sectopod corpses and a UFO power source.

But slightly related:

REMOVE WEIGHTS ON ARMOUR
I get it "realism" but it's annoying. If I want my soldiers to wear armour I can buy from the start it's just aesthetics in a game where everything is brown. Even so, it helps against early game plasma pistols and will allow some survivability for the few good men that are sent out on the first missions that have 0 accuracy and 0 health.

Plus they look cool when wearing armour.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 26, 2014, 02:17:04 pm
Solar, Buffing something? No way. I should go back to bed. When I wake up everything will be back to normal and the Personal Armor will require two sectopod corpses and a UFO power source.

Not true! I'm buffing the aliens all the time!

REMOVE WEIGHTS ON ARMOUR

No.

Suffer the weight or buy more rookies.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MeatLoaf on August 26, 2014, 03:02:01 pm
REMOVE WEIGHTS ON ARMOUR
I get it "realism", but it helps early game for the few good men.

The few good men shouldn't be on the front line, they should be 2nd line taking sniper shots at spotted targets. I think 5-10% of recruits are keepers which means 90%+ are cannon fodder laying down their lives to keep the elites alive...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on August 26, 2014, 03:39:29 pm
This approach calls for a Commissar armor: boosts Bravery big time (cool hats and coats fill you with self-confidence!) so the elites wearing it don't give a damn about the rookies dying by the score :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 26, 2014, 03:43:58 pm
Ruthless, all of you. Some of us like to play conservative and make sure at least half of the guys we send out on missions make it to see the end of the First Alien War :P

But really. That's why I use armour mods that let my soldiers survive early game. Kinda pains me whenever a soldier dies.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on August 26, 2014, 03:50:07 pm
Everyone has their own methods, I don't like losing rookies either. But even if I rarely lose people in the field, there are 2 things...
1. Skyranger is a damned deathtrap, even with OXCom cheating in player's favor (aliens do not use area effect weapons during the first turns);
2. UFO breaching is ALWAYS risky, no matter how good your preparation is. Unless of course you click 20 turns away and never enter the UFO, which is kinda... abusive.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MeatLoaf on August 26, 2014, 05:14:48 pm
Ruthless, all of you.

:)


Gotta tell you, I hate it when people die. The thing is though, I know whats coming. Early game I prioritise those who'll be able to take the cyberdiscs I know to be coming. Once I get the psy labs I dance Gangam style, and protect those who can withstand the etherals. Your troops can be assets or they are liabilities, troopers will die so which do you protect?

PS yeah I know I could pre-screen assets from liabilities, but someone will die...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: SIMON on August 26, 2014, 06:58:33 pm
Yep that did the trick version 0.9.2. By the way I think Ironfist is brilliant as u have a chance to catch Supply ships now without blowing them to bits and losing all the E115. What's in the future versions of the Final Mod pack or is it wait and see?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 26, 2014, 07:41:27 pm
Mostly wait and see, but my main focus is likely to be on armours now. Related to this, perhaps a line of really heavy guns that can only reasonably be carried if you're using armours with weight capacity bonus. The rest depends on many factors, mostly what mods come up. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on August 26, 2014, 07:43:08 pm
Solar, should Alloy Skyranger be sold at a NIL price, given that it is a rental item at a reduced price if we build it for the owner?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 26, 2014, 08:36:22 pm
Mostly wait and see, but my main focus is likely to be on armours now. Related to this, perhaps a line of really heavy guns that can only reasonably be carried if you're using armours with weight capacity bonus. The rest depends on many factors, mostly what mods come up. :)
That doesn't rightly make sense to me. If you are talking juggernaut armour or something to protect your soldiers from early game plasma pistols and explosions, why would the weight capacity of the armour help them hold a big gun? I would imagine that it would do quite the opposite, weighing them down severely if they weren't slow enough holding a rifle and a grenade with four strength units left.

If you are talking ExoSuits, those carry themselves and increase everything that the soldier does. Really expensive and experimental, but again they carry themselves. A soldier wearing an exosuit did standard exercises until he was bored

Also, I don't see why a tactical vest should weigh you down almost as much as a rifle.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 26, 2014, 10:03:44 pm
Solar, should Alloy Skyranger be sold at a NIL price, given that it is a rental item at a reduced price if we build it for the owner?

Well, it was how the original mod worked, and I did nothing to change it. It's basically an issue with license - X-Com doesn't have one to produce and sell Skyrangers, it may only convert it to its own purposes.

That doesn't rightly make sense to me. If you are talking juggernaut armour or something to protect your soldiers from early game plasma pistols and explosions, why would the weight capacity of the armour help them hold a big gun?

Ever heard of Power Suits?

Also, I don't see why a tactical vest should weigh you down almost as much as a rifle.

I agree, it should weigh you down way more, but I didn't want to be unreasonable.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 26, 2014, 10:20:39 pm
Ever heard of Power Suits?
Why yes I have. I thought you were assuming that early game armours would have this bonus for some reason.

I agree, it should weigh you down way more, but I didn't want to be unreasonable.
By technicality, the armour should weigh less since it is being supported by your lower torso, much more sturdy than your hands. And besides, typical kevlar vests worn by the military weigh roughly 6.5 pounds, while a rifle weighs in at 7.5 pounds with 30 rounds and a magazine. Something heavier like DragonSkin weighs in at about 10 pounds. Various different bomb protection suits come in at different weights, but are typically 15-20 pounds. Most tactical vests, which have pockets in them usually (might come in as a handy feature) take the weight off the shoulders and move it to the lower torso, making the vest a little lighter on the soldier.

TL;DR typical armoured vests weigh less than a carbine/assault rifle and because of where the weight is put on the soldier, weighs a lot less than it should.  Meaning that to be realistic, the weight of the armour should weigh less than what is currently is in FMP.

Take that for realism.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 26, 2014, 10:31:57 pm
Why yes I have. I thought you were assuming that early game armours would have this bonus for some reason.

Lol no :D

By technicality, the armour should weigh less since it is being supported by your lower torso, much more sturdy than your hands.

True, but:

And besides, typical kevlar vests worn by the military weigh roughly 6.5 pounds, while a rifle weighs in at 7.5 pounds with 30 rounds and a magazine. Something heavier like DragonSkin weighs in at about 10 pounds. Various different bomb protection suits come in at different weights, but are typically 15-20 pounds. Most tactical vests, which have pockets in them usually (might come in as a handy feature) take the weight off the shoulders and move it to the lower torso, making the vest a little lighter on the soldier.

The weighs you're giving (as far as I can understand ancient units of measurement) are for relatively light tactical suits, basically what is built in the X-Com uniform (after all it does have some armour value). Remember it's 1999, not 2014. The combat armour is something heavier, to be used against aliens... Oh you know, this is sci-fi.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on August 26, 2014, 10:54:48 pm
I don't know where you're taking your numbers from, XCOMFan419, but the MTV body armor currently being deployed with US Marines weighs 30 pounds, and the old and tested Interceptor vest (IBA) - 27 pounds. And that's even without helmet.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: guille1434 on August 26, 2014, 11:21:41 pm
Hello: Another small bug report, the newly incorporated Laser Shotgun, is visibible in the Ufopedia before it being researched... I think it is a problem of the requisites in the ufopaedia entry...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 26, 2014, 11:39:44 pm
The weighs you're giving (as far as I can understand ancient units of measurement) are for relatively light tactical suits, basically what is built in the X-Com uniform (after all it does have some armour value). Remember it's 1999, not 2014. The combat armour is something heavier, to be used against aliens... Oh you know, this is sci-fi.

(For future reference: The American M4 Carbine weighs 6.36 lb (2.88 kg) empty, 7.5 lb (3.4 kg) with 30 rounds. Meaning that the Xcom Rifle weighs roughly the same with a larger bullet size but decreased magazine size.)

Okay, let me pull up the facts again.

Improved Outer Tactical Vest used by the American Military, (IOTV) medium size (complete with all components and pockets filled) weighs in at 13.9kg, or around 30 pounds. But this includes - but is not subjected to - 3 magazines for a rifle, a grenade, first aid bandages, food, broken down MREs, notebook, pens, maps, radio batteries, (for company mortar 60mm guns) a 60mm mortar round, a belt of 100rds of 7.62mm for the M240B machine guns, more ammo, 2 x 1qt canteens (can't always trust a Camelback), VS-17 marking panel, small squad handheld radio, flex cuffs, candy, a book to read, more ammo in mags, weapons cleaning kit, phrase book of the local language, compass, GPS and some other luxuries such as an ice pack or a candy bar. Reminder, this is ALL in the tactical vest. Now taking most of this stuff out, the armour weighs about half of what it is. Again, taking in consideration that the weight is spread across the torso and limited on the shoulders, it should weigh a little bit less than half of that. BUT most Xcom operatives will not take anything but an extra magazine or a grenade into the fight, meaning that the IOTV weighs even more less than 30 pounds.
(Source: A US Army Vet, 82nd Airborne edit: made it sound like I was the army vet. I'm not, by the way.)
BUT IOTV was in service in 2006. The OTV weighs 3.6 kilograms more than the IOTV, and the OTV was in service since the late 1990's. Meaning that most tactical vests the Xcom Project would purchase would weigh roughly around 8 kilograms, or 17-18 pounds.

(https://i.imgur.com/Y2aOhdM.jpg)

Typical Kevlar Vests used by Military and Police forces around the world (different from tactical vests. No pockets and less armour plating) are around 6-8 pounds (3.5 kilograms), while civilian ones weigh 10-15 pounds (5-6 kilograms)

(https://i.imgur.com/Ry281hw.jpg)

Now Dragon Skin armour, in it's current state, has no pockets and protects against a Fragmentation Grenade at point blank range and from most infantry firearms. It weighs in at approximately 5.5 lb (2.5 kg) with level 3 protection. This is the current iteration of Dragon Skin armour, and includes no pockets but has it's armour plating. I am not sure if there is a level higher than the Level 3 protection that it is currently at.

(https://i.imgur.com/ViRlEI3.jpg)

Here, we have a full body suit, the Interceptor Body Armour. IOTV and OTV are apart of Interceptor Body Armour, but do not use the full set of Interceptor Body Armour. This includes protection on the arms, legs, better coverage of the torso and groin protection. Other packages include a neck piece and even a combat diaper to protect super sensitive areas. The arm and leg areas are considered Level 2 combat armour since they do not protect from .44 Magnum rounds, but this is a case of pure penetration power and not Directed Energy Weapons which mostly rely on equal amounts of Heat and Kinetic energy. Plasma weapons are no exception. While they might provide limited protection against plasma pistols, taking a hit and protecting the soldier from most of the damage, they will not protect against anything else. These neck, arm, leg, and groin add-on make the armour weigh in at 33.1 pounds, or 15 kilograms.

(https://i.imgur.com/p3lgC1d.jpg)

Lastly, the last body armour I am going to cover, is the PASGT, or Personal Armour System for Ground Troops. Not based entirely in america, this is the most likely armour the Xcom Project would buy. Designed in the mid 1970's the PASGT refers to the helmet and vest together. In the US army the PASGT was simply referred to as Kevlar, or even Flak Vest. Other applications include night vision goggles and a riot control visor for the helmet. Speaking of which, provides limited protection against rifle ammunition, according to informal tests. The US army used PASGT in the vest format, which weighs in at 16.5 pounds or 7.4 kilograms. Overvest variants of PASGT nearly doubles this weight, at 25 pounds and 11.3 kilograms, but overvest was considered too bulky and most preferred to use one vest.

(https://i.imgur.com/5rhWEAC.jpg)

So what does all of this mean?

Remember how I said the rifle, when filled, weighs around 7.5 kilograms?

Well let's translate that. The Xcom Rifle weighs roughly around 9-11 strength points, when filled with ammunition. Considering weight distribution techniques and the LACK of equipment that Xcom Operatives/Agents/Soldiers receive, it roughly translates into anywhere from 3-7 strength points for armours. 7 for armour like Interceptor Body Armour, which is full coverage, and Overvest PASGT. In the middle are armours like Dragon Skin torso armour and OTV. Lastly we have basic Kevlar armour, which should weigh near to nothing, something like 2-4.

Again, all for the realism.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 26, 2014, 11:40:46 pm
I don't know where you're taking your numbers from, XCOMFan419, but the MTV body armor currently being deployed with US Marines weighs 30 pounds, and the old and tested Interceptor vest (IBA) - 27 pounds. And that's even without helmet.
I covered that in my newest post. Most of the weight is from the equipment carried into battle is from other equipment. See my post for answers.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on August 26, 2014, 11:57:09 pm
I covered that in my newest post. Most of the weight is from the equipment carried into battle is from other equipment. See my post for answers.

This is quite OTT....

It's only a game!

I guess OpenXcom should begin with a warning "The nature of this videogame is not designed to stimulate real-life".
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on August 27, 2014, 12:39:41 am
Yeah you've cited a lot of wiki but there is a serious flaw in your logic, if not outright misinformation. Basing on YOUR OWN WORDS: How 7.5 pound rifle (11 xcom weight loaded) should weight MORE than a full interceptor body suit (circa 30 pounds)?

And yeah it's not a simulation and weighs are skewed to keep game balance (I tend to see weapon's weight as combination of actual weight, ease of carrying and recoil), but even without that, something is wrong with someone's logic here.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 27, 2014, 12:52:33 am
Yeah you've cited a lot of wiki but there is a serious flaw in your logic, if not outright misinformation. Basing on YOUR OWN WORDS: How 7.5 pound rifle (11 xcom weight) should weight MORE than a full interceptor body suit (circa 30 pounds)?

And yeah it's not a simulation and weighs are skewed to keep game balance (I tend to see weapon's weight as combination of actual weight, ease of carrying and recoil), but even without that, something is wrong with someone's logic here.
Right. Getting information without books is hard (I lean more towards heavy armour, aircraft and missiles rather than infantry equipment)

But this is FULL body armour, not in Final Mod Pack. I was just adding it in for reference. FMP, to my knowledge (last used in 0.8) has a few armours that cover the torso. The fact that they weighed as much as a rifle bothered me. I could get that the Hazmat suit weighed something, but a simple Kevlar vest? Nah mang nah. I just don't like it how people are adding weight to the armours when the Vanilla game doesn't. There's simply no point to them since there are better armours available basically from the getgo if you are smart about it with alien alloys. Sure, this is a better strategy, but some people like variety. I LOVE variety in my games. That's why I like this modding community, because it adds so much more colour than the old Gray/Brown combo of the vanilla game. But when there's something useless in the game that could add variety? That just pushes my buttons.

Either way, doesn't matter to me. I'll take the two hours to find every weight value of the armours in the ruleset and take them out. I will do that it takes to get my variety, one way or another.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on August 27, 2014, 01:03:27 am
You've spent 2 hours learning (which is never bad) but you haven't bothered to even check the FMP and find out the Weight 8 body armor provided there quite reliably protects against rifle hits, which places it in the same ball park as 30-pound Interceptor body armor.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 27, 2014, 01:46:05 am
You've spent 2 hours learning (which is never bad) but you haven't bothered to even check the FMP and find out the Weight 8 body armor provided there quite reliably protects against rifle hits, which places it in the same ball park as 30-pound Interceptor body armor.
To put this in perspective, I like to bring up the average of good soldiers out there. I use Warboy's statstrings instead of the ones supplied since I don't want to bring up a notepad document translating every number, letter and symbol used in it. That being said, over around 20+ games (only 9 of which completed) I have accumulated a small, but promising number of good soldiers to bad soldiers.

1:3.

1 out of every 3 soldiers purchased are actually worth it. While this may seem trivial, most of them - when equipped with armour - only have enough to carry a loaded rifle. (Most soldiers I purchase have ~25 strength value because of RNG). 8+11=19 strength points used. I have roughly 4-5 left over for a magazine or a grenade. During terror missions, this is not enough. And I am not going to sit there all of the first month purchasing and selling soldiers if they have ~30 weight value when they are recruited due to money and time constraints with UFO's flying all over the place. So not only is it convenient for weight armours to be taken out of FMP and most armour mods, it also makes my guys look better compared to the old brown coveralls which are...brown. 
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 27, 2014, 01:48:01 am
I never understood the good/bad soldier discern. Well, maybe for the Psi Strength, yes. But other stats? They depend on experience. All soldiers of the same level are similar.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Harald_Gray on August 27, 2014, 10:33:10 am
Everybody has his/her playstyle and there's no "wrong" way of winning the game.

In my experience, the first deciding stat is FA. There's a *huge* difference between FA 45 and FA 65 and I'm not going to wait fifteen mission for a soldier to improve to a value I can get from a rookie. Plus I don't want to endanger my other soldiers by placing weak links into my teams. So I tend to become more and more selective in my hiring process as I'm getting richer and richer. I take everybody in January but come say July, I've got a base or two dedicated mainly to screening rookies. I'll hire fifty soldiers and sack everybody with a low FA or strenght under 25. And keep the rest, because the other stats are not that important. After all, I've already got a group of veterans, I do have some specialists already, so all the rookies have to do at first is shoot things and get some experience. This first selection process means I keep say twenty soldiers out of fifty.

The second deciding stat is (obviously) psi strength. When I play with little to no savescumming I tend to retire my soldiers after fifteen missions. I keep them (by this time I can easily afford to pay for them and they're far better garrison troops than rookies anyway) and wait for Psi-labs. Which is where I learn which three quarters of my veterans better stay out of any combat that might send them against psionics again. Those twenty rookies in my recruiting base get tested too and I sack those with too low psi scores. I tend to be rich enough to be able to field two teams of psi-strong soldiers so there's no point in giving experience to soldiers I won't be able to send to any mission I might have to. So, out of fifty hirees, I get half a dozen combat-ready rookies.

Some of you will surely say that spending about half a million to get one rookie is not that efficient. And I know it isn't and I do know that this is a game. But I don't like losing my soldiers and I do tend to have this kind of money available so I do this anyway and feel better about doing my best for making sure as many of my guys as possible come back from a mission.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on August 27, 2014, 11:45:48 am
Some of you will surely say that spending about half a million to get one rookie is not that efficient.

If I were a Council Member politician I'd only say, "See? I was telling you XCom is getting way too much money! We should at least put some tax on these Laser Cannons, for God's sake..." :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on August 27, 2014, 12:35:48 pm
Everybody has his/her playstyle and there's no "wrong" way of winning the game.
[..]
 So I tend to become more and more selective in my hiring process as I'm getting richer and richer.
as far as i see it the balancing issue is not soldier selection but easy money :)
but that there is an balancing issue here is also a matter of opinion
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MeatLoaf on August 27, 2014, 02:05:27 pm
I doubt you'd be able to reach a balance in the games finances, you could possibly do it if OXCOM 1 was split into 3 different games which 3 different geo-political landscapes and financial situations. If you included TFTD (which would make so much more logical sence if it came before EU) it'd probably end up at 5 chapters (First Contact, Turning The Tide, Reinforcements, Burning Skies, Killing The Hive).

Oh and if you guys are having trouble early game I just threw this together:

Rocket Tank - power increased to 100 ammo reduced to 6 (35% 1 shot chance against cyberdiscs)
GL Tank - fires (18) 40mm grenades and takes the role of the vannilla rocket tank
Auto Cannon Tank - 'Cause 3xHE is better than a single AP shell right?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 27, 2014, 03:43:30 pm
Nice! But it should be noted that the tank in the FMP was modified to fire HE ammunition. (And the tank launcher has an "auto" mode firing 2 missiles.)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MeatLoaf on August 27, 2014, 04:00:09 pm
Lol sorry I havent actually tried out the tanks, it was just one of my peeves about the vannila game (and if I had any graphical talent the gren tank would look like this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M50_Ontos)). Also it may have been inspired by a bit of vodka while reading hobbes' work :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: RSSwizard on August 27, 2014, 07:54:41 pm
In regard to the armor discussion

Most soldiers are expected to carry 80 to 150 pounds of gear. Which does include their armor.
The Strength stat in xcom is highly unrealistic as far as how it pertains to the gear they carry around.

Armor weight shouldn't even enter the equation, just forget about it. Maybe for a specific, very heavy armor that doesnt support itself like a bomb disposal suit.

We can just say that all of that extra weight they are expected to carry, like the millions of dollars it takes to tunnel out your building facilities and procure your aircraft which you never see either. And their Strength stat represents "how much over that" they can handle.

These guys are Spec Ops out of the box . . . Navy Seals . . . Spetznatz . . . they carry logs up and down the beach for miles.



And by the way why is the Minimum Weight of all items at least 3?

I remember if I modded items to have weight of 1 in vanilla the game had problems calculating throwing arcs for them. But presumably that shouldnt be a problem anymore.

Last I checked a hand grenade weighs 1 pound and so does a pistol magazine. IRL.

I wouldnt mind being able to make some items simply weightless in mods too (maybe ill try that). They still take up inventory space anyway.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 27, 2014, 08:00:12 pm
Lol sorry I havent actually tried out the tanks, it was just one of my peeves about the vannila game (and if I had any graphical talent the gren tank would look like this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M50_Ontos)). Also it may have been inspired by a bit of vodka while reading hobbes' work :)

Ah yes something that won't embarrass me.

The M50 Ontos was a close support weapon that was used during the Vietnam War, roughly 300 were made. The concept was to use Recoilless Rifles so they could stick as many damn guns on it as possible to support troops in battles\. While inaccurate because of several issues involving vehicles with more than one gun, it did not see service past the Vietnam war. However, Xcom could use such a weapon for inaccurate - yet powerful - fire support when engaging the Alien threat due to the Recoilless Rifle's spread.

Hell, a Recoilless Rifle little line could be interesting. Sure there would only be a HWP and a small rocket launcher that resembles a Recoilless Rifle (eg. Carl Gustav) but it could add a little bit more to the game in terms of explosives.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 27, 2014, 09:11:38 pm
In regard to the armor discussion

Most soldiers are expected to carry 80 to 150 pounds of gear. Which does include their armor.
The Strength stat in xcom is highly unrealistic as far as how it pertains to the gear they carry around.

Correct. That's why, in my opinion, the armour's weight does not correspond directly to its mass, but is rather a function of how much it slows you down due to its mass.[/quote]

Yes, but where do you draw the line? I assume a "non-armoured" agent is wearing such a non-weight armour, as is indicated by the stats. However, a Personal Armour is a goddamn plate mail; I understnad alloys are light, but there's no way it doesn't slow you down.

Having said that, some of the armours that are coming will not have weight despite being reasonably full-body, like the flexible Synthsuit (Muton-based).

These guys are Spec Ops out of the box . . . Navy Seals . . . Spetznatz . . . they carry logs up and down the beach for miles.

And here, my friend, our opinions differ. :) In my world, supported by evidence (starting stats), these guys are hardly trained soldiers, they're field agents that take up weapons. Few of them seem to have had significant military training, no? :)

And by the way why is the Minimum Weight of all items at least 3?

I remember if I modded items to have weight of 1 in vanilla the game had problems calculating throwing arcs for them. But presumably that shouldnt be a problem anymore.

Interesting, I should try it myself. Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on August 27, 2014, 09:21:11 pm
Item weight 3 is a soft limit introduced by sane microprose people to prevent crazy throwing ranges (wt 2 flies 50% further than 3, and 1 - 3x further), and also to streamline equipment for ease of playing (1 tile = 3 wt being a rule of thumb, so the weight corresponds to perceived size of an object).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: RSSwizard on August 27, 2014, 10:33:10 pm
Quote
Dioxine - Item weight 3 is a soft limit introduced by sane microprose people to prevent crazy throwing ranges.
Easy, if weight is less than 3 (including 0) treat it as if its 3.


Quote
Solarius - Correct. That's why, in my opinion, the armour's weight does not correspond directly to its mass, but is rather a function of how much it slows you down due to its mass.

In Dungeons & Dragons this is why they not only had armor weights for suits of armor, they also had them arranged in tiers of proficiency too. Not only did you have to be strong, you also had to be proficient with armor otherwise it did bad things to you.

Personal Armor is made out of rigid metal plates but its not done sloppy. Its similar to the D&D equivalent of any kind of Medium Armor made out of Mithril.

Oh gahd am I really making dungeons & dragons references here?
Nope, im just agreeing with you.


Quote
And here, my friend, our opinions differ.
I got the impression they were Spec Ops but because of Gameplay Balance they had to nerfed. Also how are you going to have Veterancy when they're already at peak of performance.

Maybe they were recruited from desk jobs after they've been pushing pencils too long and have generally lost their touch.

But go talk to Jesse Ventura and im pretty sure he will say that you dont lose much of that edge, no matter how long you've been complacent. Many dont know that Jesse Ventura, while also being an actor and one of the guys responsible for the "Big Man with a Minigun" trope, he was also bona fide Spec Ops before that. Every Marine ive talked to has said you really don't lose that touch, even if out of the service you've developed a beer gut.

I mean soldiers could be amped up to start with, but to equal their greater capabilities the aliens would have to get jacked out too with lightning fast reactions and an enormous number of TU.

I like the idea of game balance where "everybody is broken" but that often turns out to be a trainwreck too.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Avalanche on August 28, 2014, 04:31:02 am
I was always under the impression that XCOM was filled with special forces too. I mean, they're a top secret global government conspiracy and humanity's best hope at stopping the alien threat, so why would it be filled with random people they picked up off the street (as their stats suggest?). I think it'd make a bit more sense balance-wise if your recruits all had improved stats, but the earlier aliens were all made tougher to compensate. Really, until the Mutons arrive, there's no real reason why the regular military or even local police shouldn't be able to handle the aliens.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 28, 2014, 05:02:22 am
Solar, have you considered taking some of the things from Final Mod Pack that are not apart of other mods (i.e Stormlance Missile, Hybrid Race and the Laser Shotgun) and putting them up separately for other's enjoyment? I personally would like to see some of these other parts of FMP separate that I cannot find myself/make myself for convenience. Of course I could just delve into the code and CTRL+C and CTRL+V, but look how that turned out last time with the Xcom Cyberdiscs and Tanks, Drones, Sectopods? Oh My! (For reference, I couldn't get the cyberdiscs to work due to Solar's FMP magic.)

Also, with the new update...

YOU BROKE THE BASE RULE! I saw the new base layout and I just asked myself...why? You have the Access lift between three buildings to the Hangar, meaning all attempts to create a chokepoint are foiled. I tried out the newest FMP and I had an early Base Assault (18 days into the game) and I was ANNIHILATED. Lost the game and everything. And you can't fix it since the Access Lift is right in the middle, making it like the old base. It is indeed much harder, but also causes confusion to newer players who are used to their access lifts being right beside the hangars (such as myself, I use XcomUtil's Defensive Base [not the improved version because that's just cheating])
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Jayden Hawke on August 28, 2014, 05:05:55 am
I did some editing of the english translation of the UFOPedia for grammar, spelling and clarity. Tried not to be too heavy handed. Here it is if anyone's interested.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 28, 2014, 07:57:02 am
Solar, have you considered taking some of the things from Final Mod Pack that are not apart of other mods (i.e Stormlance Missile, Hybrid Race and the Laser Shotgun) and putting them up separately for other's enjoyment? I personally would like to see some of these other parts of FMP separate that I cannot find myself/make myself for convenience.

I did it with some things, but admittedly not all... I think the Stormlance is kind of irrelevant in a normal game, the hybrid race is simply unfinished (I need to do more missions and maps), and the Laser Shotgun... well I just haven't found the time yet. But it's planned.

Of Also, with the new update...

YOU BROKE THE BASE RULE! I saw the new base layout and I just asked myself...why? You have the Access lift between three buildings to the Hangar, meaning all attempts to create a chokepoint are foiled. I tried out the newest FMP and I had an early Base Assault (18 days into the game) and I was ANNIHILATED. Lost the game and everything. And you can't fix it since the Access Lift is right in the middle, making it like the old base. It is indeed much harder, but also causes confusion to newer players who are used to their access lifts being right beside the hangars (such as myself, I use XcomUtil's Defensive Base [not the improved version because that's just cheating])

While I don't honestly think it's any worse than your normal starting base, I admit it's sort of beta. Maybe you could suggest a better arrangement? A simple drawing would suffice.

I did some editing of the english translation of the UFOPedia for grammar, spelling and clarity. Tried not to be too heavy handed. Here it is if anyone's interested.

Ooooh! Awesome! I'll look at it ASAP, probably over the weekend.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 28, 2014, 09:23:32 am
I did it with some things, but admittedly not all... I think the Stormlance is kind of irrelevant in a normal game, the hybrid race is simply unfinished (I need to do more missions and maps), and the Laser Shotgun... well I just haven't found the time yet. But it's planned.
I - and others if they wish to help - could probably dissect FMP's code to make most things that aren't already in mods into new mods. Maybe even make an entire thread for dissected FMP mods that haven't already existed beforehand. I think it would be an interesting concept. I think most, if not all, of the things in Final Mod Pack would contribute to a normal game.

While I don't honestly think it's any worse than your normal starting base, I admit it's sort of beta. Maybe you could suggest a better arrangement? A simple drawing would suffice.
One not-so elaborate diagram coming up soon.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MeatLoaf on August 28, 2014, 09:45:03 am
Also, with the new update...
I saw the new base layout and I just asked myself...why?

While I don't honestly think it's any worse than your normal starting base, I admit it's sort of beta. Maybe you could suggest a better arrangement? A simple drawing would suffice.

And that is why I always build my own base. I have a couple of suggestions but I need to wait for a base assault to see the fire lines of the LQ.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on August 28, 2014, 02:56:37 pm
And that is why I always build my own base. I have a couple of suggestions but I need to wait for a base assault to see the fire lines of the LQ.

I like!

Meanwhile,

@XcomFan, if you dont like FMP starting thing, just enable custom start layout option?

@Solar, the IronFist ended up on the edge of map again on another mission.... my poor tanks!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MeatLoaf on August 28, 2014, 03:17:07 pm
Hahahahaha just had a real nasty fight, tried to treat it like defending a single corridoor instead of 2 distinct ones. I will never use the large facility in a small base again :). Also did you guys change the rules about fire? I saw 4 sectoids walk through it and 2 cyberdiscs park in it  ???
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on August 28, 2014, 05:06:25 pm
What about this as a way to defend your base? Living quarters is put far away as possible so more soldiers can spawn there, much easier to station your troops.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 28, 2014, 05:44:58 pm
I have a couple of suggestions but I need to wait for a base assault to see the fire lines of the LQ.

Yes, it's certainly good defence, but it also looks kind of gamey. I was going for a more natural look for the default base. If anybody wants the metagame defence configuration, they're welcome to use the custom layout; exactly like in the vanilla game.

@Solar, the IronFist ended up on the edge of map again on another mission.... my poor tanks!

Ouch. I really should take care of this... When I have the time. Over the weekend, hopefully.

Hahahahaha just had a real nasty fight, tried to treat it like defending a single corridoor instead of 2 distinct ones. I will never use the large facility in a small base again :). Also did you guys change the rules about fire? I saw 4 sectoids walk through it and 2 cyberdiscs park in it  ???

Well, new content means new tactical surprises. :) I'll say, modding success! :D
And nope, there were no changes to the fire mechanics. It's hard-coded.

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on August 28, 2014, 06:00:46 pm
@Solar, could you direct me to the tools etc to construct/edit a craft?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 28, 2014, 06:09:18 pm
@Solar, could you direct me to the tools etc to construct/edit a craft?

All I used was MapView, to make the map itself. And of course a graphics editor for the base/Ufopedia graphics, and a text editor for the ruleset. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on August 28, 2014, 07:39:54 pm
You should add alternate ruleset, "casual starting base" :) Although placing the lift not adjacent to any hangar is too hardcore even by my standards :)

Seriously though, you should make a map that looks believeable but it is easier to re-configure than the standard one, as in "not having to blow up 2 hangars". Or NOT use my big quarters on startup and leave things vanilla.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on August 28, 2014, 08:17:57 pm
Just wonder that others also met these bugs\glitches or just my OXC is so happy and funny:

- Can not research Spitter alive or dead at all
- Spitter corpse\unconscious body is a COMBAT KNIFE!!!
- Salamandron has no ufopaedia entry for living specimen and it's body is a dead Reaper
- Terrors with Waspites are always cause crash or freeze but other missions involve them works normally
- Weapons have higher accuracy than 150% tend to miss if used aimed shots (7 times from 10)
- Some terror maps have areas what can not be accessed normally only if walls of furnitures got destroyed prior
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on August 28, 2014, 08:20:50 pm
Definately not experienced this, as i have researched the spitter myself.

Perhaps delete OpenXcom, download it, copy Xcom data files over into OpenXcom folder, download a fresh 0.9.2 FMP version, extract and paste it into OpenXcom, say yes to overwrite all files.

It should work then....?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Jayden Hawke on August 30, 2014, 09:07:55 am
Here's an update with my own repeated mistake removed.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MeatLoaf on August 30, 2014, 01:19:43 pm
Yes, it's certainly good defence, but it also looks kind of gamey. I was going for a more natural look for the default base. If anybody wants the metagame defence configuration, they're welcome to use the custom layout; exactly like in the vanilla game.
Well, new content means new tactical surprises. :) I'll say, modding success! :D
And nope, there were no changes to the fire mechanics. It's hard-coded.
Must have been a courner fire free then :( The cyberdiscs worry me because that probably means at sectopods and some others will ignore fire tiles too  :'(
You should add alternate ruleset, "casual starting base" :) Although placing the lift not adjacent to any hangar is too hardcore even by my standards :)
Seriously though, you should make a map that looks believeable but it is easier to re-configure than the standard one, as in "not having to blow up 2 hangars". Or NOT use my big quarters on startup and leave things vanilla.
I wish we had bigger bases, offset by needing control rooms, power plants and separate corridoors that don't run through the middle of sensitive science labs and right next to my soldiers beds. But the new LQ and FMP in general is deffinately a modding success :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 30, 2014, 04:58:36 pm
Here's an update with my own repeated mistake removed.

Many thanks, it was extremely useful. Changes will be added to the next release.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Mustang on August 31, 2014, 03:31:22 am
Hey I'm new to using final mod pack and I keep hitting dead ends in research, for instance I have psi-lab and mind shield but no psi amp, and I can't find a way to research gauss and laser weaponry despite meeting the prerequisites I see in the tech tree. Is it just a matter of conducting more interrogations? It's getting tedious fighting mutons with alloy weapons
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on August 31, 2014, 09:58:38 am
Here's an update with my own repeated mistake removed.

I start not to understand the whole thing.
I downloaded and installed OXC 2 weeks ago then installed the patch as adviced on the main page. Then installed final mod pack 8 days ago as the attached text file said.

Then I met the above mentioned bugs (+ I met some more => Alien bases and terrors tend to crash if I bring X-com cyberdisc with my squad, X-com sectopods usually can not spot UFOs even if they shot them 2-5 squares away right in front of them - Soldiers need to spot them!- and some aliens in raider groups tend to stay idle)...

Then I applied your ruleset on the "still latest FMP" and the whole OXC crashes right as I launch it. I were need to rewrite with the old rul-file to able to start the game again. I do not a coder but it seems for me that some strings not works as they need to do so (as much as I understood from the rul-files the whole OXC based on strings and tags).

And why do not pick the aliens up their weapons if this option is set as "yes"? I use only the Final Mod Pack and the Rail guns mod for OXC. Possible that incompatibility causes my problems? Or need to install some other mods aswell to get rid my annoying bugs?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on August 31, 2014, 10:36:56 am
Hey, Solar, here's an idea.

I see in the Manufacturing background, there's an Autocannon and a Rifle, plus some mags and some ammo. My current thinking is that you make the non-best earth technology for purchase, but have the earth's best technology stuff manufacturable from the start/have some really easy early research, taking only a few hours with 5 scientists. This would make everything slightly more evil as you don't have good rifles from the absolute get-go. Afterall, you are the master of rebalancing everything so much it works in the favour of the aliens.  ;D [/joke]
 
Eh. Just a thought. Feel free to ignore me :P
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on August 31, 2014, 10:53:31 am
Hey I'm new to using final mod pack and I keep hitting dead ends in research, for instance I have psi-lab and mind shield but no psi amp, and I can't find a way to research gauss and laser weaponry despite meeting the prerequisites I see in the tech tree. Is it just a matter of conducting more interrogations? It's getting tedious fighting mutons with alloy weapons

Well, if you're saying you have the prerequisites, then you do, but if you can't research it, then it means you probably don't...

Psi-Amp requires:
- Mind Probe
- Psionics

Mind Probe requires:
- Alien Neurosychology
- Alien Optical Processor

Psionics require interrogation of a psionic alien.

Laser rifles require:
- Laser Cannon
- Power Source Miniaturization

Power Source Miniaturization requires:
- UFO Power Source
- Interrogation of an Engineer

Hopefully this helps.

I start not to understand the whole thing.
I downloaded and installed OXC 2 weeks ago then installed the patch as adviced on the main page. Then installed final mod pack 8 days ago as the attached text file said.

Then I met the above mentioned bugs (+ I met some more => Alien bases and terrors tend to crash if I bring X-com cyberdisc with my squad, X-com sectopods usually can not spot UFOs even if they shot them 2-5 squares away right in front of them - Soldiers need to spot them!- and some aliens in raider groups tend to stay idle)...

Then I applied your ruleset on the "still latest FMP" and the whole OXC crashes right as I launch it. I were need to rewrite with the old rul-file to able to start the game again. I do not a coder but it seems for me that some strings not works as they need to do so (as much as I understood from the rul-files the whole OXC based on strings and tags).

Indeed, this is strange. Jayden's fixes will be integrated into the next version of the FMP, so hopefully this won't be a problem any more.

And why do not pick the aliens up their weapons if this option is set as "yes"? I use only the Final Mod Pack and the Rail guns mod for OXC. Possible that incompatibility causes my problems? Or need to install some other mods aswell to get rid my annoying bugs?

Aliens only pick up weapons that were dropped in the alien turn, to prevent the player from luring them into traps with thrown weapons as bait. (Hopefully this mechanic will take a more mature form at some point.)

Having said that, it should be noted that one would have to modify the Aliens_Pick_Up_Weapons.rul file and add all the new stuff there, apart from FinalModPack.rul itself.

Hey, Solar, here's an idea.

I see in the Manufacturing background, there's an Autocannon and a Rifle, plus some mags and some ammo. My current thinking is that you make the non-best earth technology for purchase, but have the earth's best technology stuff manufacturable from the start/have some really easy early research, taking only a few hours with 5 scientists. This would make everything slightly more evil as you don't have good rifles from the absolute get-go. Afterall, you are the master of rebalancing everything so much it works in the favour of the aliens.  ;D [/joke]
 
Eh. Just a thought. Feel free to ignore me :P

You're evil. You might have modding potential... :D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Avalanche on September 01, 2014, 02:46:31 am
Is it intentional that the Toxigun and the Toxigun Flask require two completely unrelated prerequisites to unlock? If it is intentional, might you consider changing it? The gun itself can get researched really early on, but I can never get the ammo until like June. Especially considering that it's a completely worthless weapon compared to just about everything other than the starting equipment, it's a bit silly that you need to capture enough Leaders to unlock Alien Gardens before you understand how a jar of acid works.

Oh, and an unrelated question. Would it be possible to put the enemy stats into the UFOPedia (kind of like in the Pirates mod) after you research the specimen? I've played through a few times, and I'm still not really sure what weapons are good against some of the new aliens.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 01, 2014, 07:52:54 am
Is it intentional that the Toxigun and the Toxigun Flask require two completely unrelated prerequisites to unlock? If it is intentional, might you consider changing it? The gun itself can get researched really early on, but I can never get the ammo until like June. Especially considering that it's a completely worthless weapon compared to just about everything other than the starting equipment, it's a bit silly that you need to capture enough Leaders to unlock Alien Gardens before you understand how a jar of acid works.

Hmm, the first intention was to get this tech from the alien garden-like structure, so theoretically it could be gained in very early game, if you manage to assault an Alien Base. It couldn't be done, so I did what I did... But you're right, I'll allow research from the clip alone, but manufacturing will still require Alien Gardens.

Oh, and an unrelated question. Would it be possible to put the enemy stats into the UFOPedia (kind of like in the Pirates mod) after you research the specimen? I've played through a few times, and I'm still not really sure what weapons are good against some of the new aliens.

I'll see what can be done. It's a good idea.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on September 01, 2014, 10:33:45 am
Maybe I will be a bit off-topic now but I did not want to create a new topic for this as it is much like a humble idea...
When I was younger (about 8 ) and played X-com at the first time I loved the blue cloak floater showed in the ufopedia. It made me mod the original floater sprites to that. And now in OXC I met a muton commander. The red one from intro! Awesomely badass and ultra cool! And it gave me the idea to have separate sprites for alien officers, or mostly for commanders.
(https://i.imgur.com/Gk8XEcK.png)
This is the blue floater I saved with PCKview and could be the floater commander sprite.
The question is: If I make the sprites for the alien commanders (+ inventory portrait) could it be implemented in FMP? And I also need the help to code them as I have no clue where and how to do that.

And I started another thing what needs no coding. I saw that many entry illustrations are from TFTD and looks odd in ufopedia. I want to change these entry pictures and if must draw new ones (Chtonite, reptiloid and so on) to fit more among the other entries. Here is two example what I mean:
(https://i.imgur.com/q6bSyUR.gif)
(https://i.imgur.com/gXK6oI6.gif)

What do you think? If I can have the coding help I will open a separate topic for this, promise, but I need some opinions first if it worth that 3-6 hours what need to rework the battlescape sprites + 1 hour for the inventory sprites...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on September 01, 2014, 10:52:15 am
1. I have the blue-cloaked floater spritesheet ready to implement at Solar's whim, so no need to burden yourself with that one. The other leaders/commanders are a fair game afaik... as long as Solar wants them, that is, so it's better to wait what he says (it'd certainly make the game a bit easier :) ).

2. Your Pedia graphics weren't done properly. Never paste over; prepare a RGB picture, THEN change the palette while converting to indexed color. If you can't get it to look good, just send the RGB png you've prepared and we'll make it look good in the Pedia :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on September 01, 2014, 11:41:01 am
1. I have the blue-cloaked floater spritesheet ready to implement at Solar's whim, so no need to burden yourself with that one. The other leaders/commanders are a fair game afaik... as long as Solar wants them, that is, so it's better to wait what he says (it'd certainly make the game a bit easier :) ).
OK. I wait. But the blue floater was not a burden I used it in vanilla X-com since ages (although sometimes vanilla X-com shows transparency glitches but not always).
2. Your Pedia graphics weren't done properly. Never paste over; prepare a RGB picture, THEN change the palette while converting to indexed color. If you can't get it to look good, just send the RGB png you've prepared and we'll make it look good in the Pedia :)
These were just test run to show what I meant. I put them into OXC for myself and they works well but I shall follow your advice and send you the PNGs if I shall make them. Now sketching the Tunlun and the Chtonite to looks like they described instead of TFTD-copy-pastes. Hope I shall find a good solution and a good picture.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 01, 2014, 06:02:14 pm
While distinct leaders would indeed make the game easier, I've heard way too much about how hard it is, so I think it wouldn't be bad!

Yeah, I'll gladly add a Floater Leader/Commander, and possibly the same for some other races if they're ever made.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: guille1434 on September 01, 2014, 08:42:21 pm
...Or may be add them as a "Elite" floater warriors? To make them a credible threat in middle game and beyond, because regular floaters are not  a challenge once you have a good soldier squad...
Making them more resistant to mind control and giving them better stats... Yuo will have your nice looking new floaters, but you would not be able to tell which one is the commander. Just a suggestion... Thanks for sharing!!!  8)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 01, 2014, 08:50:26 pm
...Or may be add them as a "Elite" floater warriors? To make them a credible threat in middle game and beyond, because regular floaters are not  a challenge once you have a good soldier squad...
Making them more resistant to mind control and giving them better stats... Yuo will have your nice looking new floaters, but you would not be able to tell which one is the commander. Just a suggestion... Thanks for sharing!!!  8)

Not a bad idea, but I think it'd be better to make completely new aliens. Which I'm sure will happen. :D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 02, 2014, 02:46:37 am
Put the atack dogs..... Lol

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Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on September 02, 2014, 10:57:03 am
Blue floaters are officers or according to the ufopedia picture medics. But I still think that commanders need distinctive look. And it is not such a big thing to make the graphics (I work on it just for fun right now as well as the new ufopedia alien pictures).
Here how my blue floaters looked like in the vanilla X-com (DosBox screen capture):
(https://i.imgur.com/B2YNC4Y.png)
And this could be the inventory (It is theoretically use the Ufo-palette if I do it well with NeoPaint):
(https://i.imgur.com/bYJa43p.png)

But there are a few things. First I saw that PCKview saves the pck-image tables in a different size like the png\gif tables bear in the FMP resources. Is this bad? Or the game shall use it well? And why is different the x-y dimensions afterall?
And still, If the graphics are done and passed\accepted someone need to code them. What is the harder part I think.

And some more FMP-related thing... I reported that Salamandron have no ufopedia entry... I captured two of them. Researched both but got no ufopedia entry and report! But while I interrogated a sectoid medic I got the Salamandron entry as a result!
WTF from the deepest I think! But still no spitter and small launcher research options but I have plenty of them in my storages. I already have blaster launcher, plasma weapons, psi-amp and mass-accelerator weapons. And I have no more interrogation options for alien leaders and commanders only engineers, navigators and medics.
Did I missed some pre-reqs? And how could MiB researched if research them is even possible at all. And why do they appear? Because some countries made a pact with aliens?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 02, 2014, 12:01:52 pm
Put the atack dogs..... Lol

The dogs... Are already there! :)
(Also used by the MiB.)

Blue floaters are officers or according to the ufopedia picture medics. But I still think that commanders need distinctive look. And it is not such a big thing to make the graphics (I work on it just for fun right now as well as the new ufopedia alien pictures).

An interesting point. All right, we'll see how it goes.

And some more FMP-related thing... I reported that Salamandron have no ufopedia entry... I captured two of them. Researched both but got no ufopedia entry and report! But while I interrogated a sectoid medic I got the Salamandron entry as a result!

OK, it's possible that the Salamandron isn't properly linked to the autopsy pic. I'll check.

WTF from the deepest I think! But still no spitter and small launcher research options but I have plenty of them in my storages. I already have blaster launcher, plasma weapons, psi-amp and mass-accelerator weapons. And I have no more interrogation options for alien leaders and commanders only engineers, navigators and medics.

The small launcher depends on gravity stuff, Engineers should do fine here. But the ammo is dependant on Medics.

And how could MiB researched if research them is even possible at all. And why do they appear? Because some countries made a pact with aliens?

No, they appear randomly. They're just your competition. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 02, 2014, 03:54:05 pm
If the alien pacts with some countries..... Game over

Is important build and cover all the planet you must have bases and outpost
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Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on September 02, 2014, 05:14:54 pm
Bad news: your radar coverage, interceptions, score etc. are irrelevant. Each month there is a chance an Alien Infiltration mission will start, and once it happens, there is no way to stop it from succeeding, even if you shoot down all the UFOs.
However, there is no direct proof that you can get an early "game over" through losing too many countries.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on September 02, 2014, 09:20:13 pm
I got some more ideas - I think soon you shall hate me like hell - about ufopedia. Here is some png pictures for alloy skyranger and alloy cannon:
(https://i.imgur.com/9KDwsS6.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/iGjrIvY.png)
The skyranger really need some blur but I am not sure how shall blurred pixels treated during palette conversion.

And some screens from the PS game over video for ufopedia alien researches:
(https://i.imgur.com/ASRC5eo.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/Wqyo5ko.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/j55c9Aw.png)
Possible Alien retaliation, alien infiltration and alien terror\flyby... Maybe need some resize for them. What do you think?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 02, 2014, 09:56:03 pm
Nice walls. Ant the cover is needed to down the ufos.

Ok i dont see dogs in the game. Arrrgh may be corrupt my game normally i update forever the mod to last version and update to last nightlies. May be corrult the game??? I dont see ethereal sectopods or dogs. I only see 1alien base and defeat. And the time go along and i dont see more. I have cover all planet and i shootdown over 90% of ufos. I dont know

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Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 02, 2014, 10:51:05 pm
Duke_Falcon, thanks for the pics! I'm not sure if I'll use them yet, but they certainly have potential.

Arrakis69ct, I don't understand what you are saying... Dogs aren't in the FMP yet.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 02, 2014, 11:02:41 pm
Ok. Sorry i am confused

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Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 03, 2014, 01:19:16 pm
This mod is compatible with improved living quarters and large storage mod???

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Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 03, 2014, 01:24:50 pm
This mod is compatible with improved living quarters and large storage mod???

The big Living Quarters are already in, and the big Stores will be added very soon (maybe today, since I already have it integrated on my local installation).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 03, 2014, 01:52:36 pm
Ok waiting and thx

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Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Hobbes on September 03, 2014, 06:14:10 pm
- Some terror maps have areas what can not be accessed normally only if walls of furnitures got destroyed prior[/size]

Can you post pictures of the maps where this happens?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 03, 2014, 06:38:15 pm
Donamite or rocket launcher. I use them to break the walls and enter. Operation surprise XD

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Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on September 03, 2014, 09:12:20 pm
Can you post pictures of the maps where this happens?
Not really. Since the game reached 2000's may I not gone to any terror missions except MiB. But it was a big parking place with cars and 4-level houses\domiciles. On the second floor homes have a room what's door could be opened but a furniture stands in front of them what need to destroy to enter the room. Furniture is outside the room what troopers want to examine (always set the AI a spitter into one of these rooms!)...

Anyway, today finished the game. Raped Cydonia and laughed into the face of the elite Ethereal guards. It was big fun! OXC with Rail gun (what I hope shall be implemented into FMP) and FMP it was a real threat and a good game to play! What I did not reached in any ways (checked after reload in debug mode the ufopedia - all entries were there even those I can not research anyway) are the following (I simply had no more interrogation\research options left no matter what did I captured\salvaged anywhere):
Spitter autopsy (not even alien medics make this entry!)
Cybermite (no medics nor technicians tell the secret of this thing and without small launcher I had no chance to capture one alive!)
Small launcher (all the other weapons were in my disposal and I knew both ammo for this aswell)
MiB (captured a full base's crew alive but nothing happened and corpses can not be examined)

Strange thing what I experienced during interrogations that some alien entries could be tell by medics while others by technicians. Could it be done that all cybernetic thing belong to technicians except autopsies while all organic things to medics? Just wonder, the game could be well finish without these or without the above mentioned things.
Still interesting that in debug-mode I did have all the ufopedia entries without error! And I see there is only 2 MiB related entires although one of them suggest to capture a MiB commander for more infos...

And if rail gun mod shall be implemented into FMP may I suggest some things? Mass accelerating weaponry (MAW) really needs some rebalance! Earth-bond technology is better than alien? MAW damages must be lower a bit. And the craft weapon is overpowered! It may keep the weapon range but damage must be only a bit bigger than laser cannon but must be weaker than plasma cannon! Even it's freedom from elerium is acceptable but 120 rounds is way to much! Give it 50-60 instead. But this is maybe only me who thinks this...

Anyway, I really must have a very big Thanks! for the FMP! It make a cool game far better and enjoyable. I waiting where should it further developing! And I hope even I could offer some little bits for the future FMPs...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on September 03, 2014, 10:18:04 pm
Dioxine mentioned that I may send pictures here for you to correct\convert them.
May I open a new topic for that?
Anyway, here is the first two in 24bits BMP format, the Tunlun terrorists:
(https://i.imgur.com/lRRmNak.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ePmpttu.png)
Why the difference in stature? The sprite shows the Tunlun as a golem-like bastard and the autopsy say they have hard skin. Maybe their hard skin is a strudy but bulky carapace what need to remove prior of the autopsy? May their hard coverage a genetic augmentation made by the aliens? It left open some questions what may lead to future items and researches...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Mustang on September 04, 2014, 07:22:35 am
Well, if you're saying you have the prerequisites, then you do, but if you can't research it, then it means you probably don't...

Psi-Amp requires:
- Mind Probe
- Psionics

Mind Probe requires:
- Alien Neurosychology
- Alien Optical Processor

Psionics require interrogation of a psionic alien.

Laser rifles require:
- Laser Cannon
- Power Source Miniaturization

Power Source Miniaturization requires:
- UFO Power Source
- Interrogation of an Engineer

Hopefully this helps.

I've lost several games now because I just can't find these empty techs. What is Alien Neuropsychology or Alien Microprocessor? Am I just supposed to research  leaders until I randomly get the empty techs I need? In my last game and my current one I finally got to Gauss, but in my current one I also just researched a sectoid commander and didn't unlock psionics. Are the requirements different for those too? Is it possible to disable this empty tech nonsense?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 04, 2014, 12:58:25 pm
You need to them interrogate medics. Engineers. And leaders

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Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MeatLoaf on September 04, 2014, 02:05:08 pm
I've lost several games now because I just can't find these empty techs

When you say you've lost several games do you mean actual games, or just missions? I'm half way through september now still using avalanche missiles and guass weaponry (although I do have flying power armor). Hold onto your missile launchers/auto cannons  and switch to IC ammo (don't forget the grenades!)I think I burned through 16 missiles and 20 grenades going against an etheral terrorship :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Avalanche on September 04, 2014, 05:50:01 pm
I've definitely lost games because of how difficult it is to advance. The last game I played my base got invaded by while I was still using alloy ammo. I technically won the mission, but I lost pretty much the entire base when a structure got destroyed right below the access lift.

In my most recent game, I only very narrowly avoided a loss. Gazers started appearing very early on, and they're almost impossible to handle when you're using alloy ammo. It got to the point where I'd only be able to actually do about a third of them missions that popped up. My only saving grace was that floaters and those floating brain bastards would attack all of my secondary bases constantly, so I could grab a few points that way.

Even more importantly though is the absolutely terrible luck I had with catching engineers, and the worse luck I had with research topics from leaders/commanders. I didn't get a single engineer of any race until September. I was using alloy ammo until November, when I finally got gauss. I then used gauss until April of next year, where I got plasma, fusion and the psy amp (after getting psy powers in February of the first year). Yes, I said plasma and fusion. I got plasma weapons and blaster bombs before any of the laser techs. It was absurd.

Edit: I guess the takeaway is that it'd be nice if the leaders/commanders dropped research topics in a specific order. I shouldn't unlock how to mass produce guided fusion warheads before I figure out the MIB laser pistol.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MeatLoaf on September 04, 2014, 07:11:17 pm
I've definitely lost games because of how difficult it is to advance. The last game I played my base got invaded by while I was still using alloy ammo. I technically won the mission, but I lost pretty much the entire base when a structure got destroyed right below the access lift.

Even more importantly though is the absolutely terrible luck I had with catching engineers, and the worse luck I had with research topics from leaders/commanders.

Destructable facilities should always be behind the firing line rather than part of the front line.
I actually ignored alloy ammunition, I concentrated on building Dart/As early on and left a full compliment of them on the sky ranger. I had 14 snipers+ACs+Rls+Dart with 3 ammo loads for each weapon (and 3 pyro'nades each) and when going against a small ship I'd load the first 10 with DRs and the last 4 with RLs and stun everything. I just worry about the wieght capacity of the sky ranger ;)

I do agree with you on the laser tech though, half way up the plasma research tree we have everything we need to make both the vehicle mounted laser and a man-portable prototype laser (even if the magazine is the size of a rocket and only have 10 shots).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 04, 2014, 09:01:08 pm
Thanks for the input, everyone. I don't have the time to respond properly right now, but rest assured I do read it all and pay attention to what is said.

Now, let me announce version 0.9.3. It contains some new stuff and fixes:

- Changed Scatter Laser's sprites to one drawn by Rockfish, because the former will be reused as something else.
- Some armour stats juggling.
- Corpse weights adjusted (inspired by NoelBuddy (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2884.0)).
- Added Alloy Vest (Earth Combat Armour made from Alien Alloys).
- Added Alloy Knife, to accompany the sword.
- Better image for the MiB Heavy Laser (by Dioxine).
- Made image for the Stormlance (somewhat crappy, but better than nothing).
- Toxigun Flask can now be researched without the Alien Gardens tech (but not manufactured).
- Updated Dioxine's Improved Living Quarters mod to the latest version.
- Many English fixes, by Jayden.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on September 04, 2014, 10:31:30 pm
I see you incorporated the changes to IronFist.

Yet again, I do end up on the edge of the map, but as you shortened the ship by one tile, my tanks can now finally return to its ship!

Another point to note, I am not sure but, there is a wierd tile looking out of place, on Polar Mountain terrain - see screenshot.

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 05, 2014, 10:04:35 am
Thanks, I'll check - might be an Ironfist issue (though right now I think it's not).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: cjones on September 05, 2014, 08:37:34 pm
Hello,

First let me say thank you to the mod creator and if anyone from OpenXcom is around, thanks to them to!

I have just started experimenting with mods on open xcom, tried a few standalone out and everything worked fine.

Found your wonderful mod pack and thought it would be nice to have a complete balanced mudpack instead of frankensteining a bunch together that might not be stable/balanced together.

Long story short, I followed the instructions for install to the letter and everything works fine until I try to place the expanded living quarters via a custom base setting.

I thought this might be a prob with custom initial base so I turned that option off.  I started a new game and now I can do everything except once I click to enter my base, openxcom crashes.

I am using the 1.0 windows installer (latest stable) version of open xcom.   I am only enabling the recommended options when starting a new game, ufo extender accuracy and research spent on use.

I am thinking the crash is related to the living quarters mod?  I have attached my save game.

Thanks!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: cjones on September 05, 2014, 08:44:25 pm
On a side note, I would add I am playing the game off of a flash drive, if that matters.  It worked fine before using the FMP.

Thanks!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on September 05, 2014, 08:56:33 pm
from https://www.openxcom.com/mod/final-mod-pack
Quote
WARNING:
Requires nightly build version openxcom_git_master_2014_07_03_0820 or later! Get it from https://openxcom.org/git-builds/.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: cjones on September 05, 2014, 08:57:54 pm
AH! Thank you so much for pointing that out, im such a noob.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: cjones on September 05, 2014, 09:04:34 pm
Just got latest build and it works like a top, thanks so much
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 06, 2014, 02:40:51 am
(https://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/05/904592809e15a29d59b2d01690bc2301.jpg) may be this a bug???

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Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Alex_D on September 06, 2014, 02:58:04 am
https://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/05/904592809e15a29d59b2d01690bc2301.jpg (https://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/05/904592809e15a29d59b2d01690bc2301.jpg) may be this a bug???

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I had the same thing. I didn't do a screen capture. So I also confirm it happened near the same location too. Too quick to land, instead I sent a Skyranger to patrol the area in case there was an alien base in the ocean! Nothing happened.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on September 06, 2014, 03:02:21 am
that is the latitude=0/longtude=0 position i guess someone screwed with the missionzones/cities/regions/trajectories ...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Jayden Hawke on September 06, 2014, 09:21:32 am
- New UFOPedia Edit. A-lot of minor corrections. en-US and en-GB are now consistent, with differences between US and UK spelling (armor v.s. armour) maintained. Edited 0.93 entries. Will correct inconsistent spacing at beginning of sentence issue caused by previous editing program after the next update.

- Any intention to include content from 'Equal Terms' mod? I am particularly interested in the inclusion of UFO Extender accuracy stats for various weapons. (Though that I personally also never liked the HC and AC is beside the point ::)
  What about the 'Enforcer' and 'Scout Armor' mods?
  If not, No worries. I'll likely just include them in my own Home-Brew version.

- Love the good work you've done on this. I myself regularly run games with 10-30 mods to enhance the depth and scope of game play, but tweaking them so that they all work seamlessly together and are balanced is a huge project that I regularly do not have time for. I truly appreciate the magnitude of the task you've taken on.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 06, 2014, 11:55:08 am
Yesterday start a new game with more difficult. Have 400000000 in the bank is bad. But i see weapons on ufopedia ex rpg or hunting rifle that i cant manufacture or buy. Is this normal?

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Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: yrizoud on September 06, 2014, 03:49:54 pm
Yes, these are the stats of some "civilian" weapons. The ufopedia makes it clear that they are not as good as the military equivalents that you can buy. Still, if you somehow find some during a mission, you can use them.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 07, 2014, 12:54:28 am
Anyway, today finished the game. Raped Cydonia and laughed into the face of the elite Ethereal guards. It was big fun!

CONGRATULATIONS!!!
:D

OXC with Rail gun (what I hope shall be implemented into FMP) and FMP it was a real threat and a good game to play!

I don't think I'll ever implement the railguns as they are, but I'm thinking about a second generation Gauss weapons. Maybe. :)
(That would give us an excuse to have both TFTD gauss sprites and Sir Thebus' gauss sprites in the mod.)

Spitter autopsy (not even alien medics make this entry!)

Spitters should research properly... They did for me anyway. Your install was somehow faulty, seeing as you couldn't get some research... Well, at least you could finish the game, and with an added difficulty of not having the Small Launcher! Not bad.

Strange thing what I experienced during interrogations that some alien entries could be tell by medics while others by technicians. Could it be done that all cybernetic thing belong to technicians except autopsies while all organic things to medics? Just wonder, the game could be well finish without these or without the above mentioned things.

Yes, this is exactly the case.

And if rail gun mod shall be implemented into FMP may I suggest some things? Mass accelerating weaponry (MAW) really needs some rebalance! Earth-bond technology is better than alien? MAW damages must be lower a bit. And the craft weapon is overpowered! It may keep the weapon range but damage must be only a bit bigger than laser cannon but must be weaker than plasma cannon! Even it's freedom from elerium is acceptable but 120 rounds is way to much! Give it 50-60 instead. But this is maybe only me who thinks this...

Yeah, some rebalance would be in order. But like I said, if I ever add the "railgun II" tech it'll probably be done more or less from scratch. It boils down to "I will probably add something at some point"... :)

I've lost several games now because I just can't find these empty techs. What is Alien Neuropsychology or Alien Microprocessor? Am I just supposed to research  leaders until I randomly get the empty techs I need?
In my last game and my current one I finally got to Gauss, but in my current one I also just researched a sectoid commander and didn't unlock psionics. Are the requirements different for those too? Is it possible to disable this empty tech nonsense?

Oh believe me, I hate empty techs myself. However, as a modder I have to make some compromises in order to achieve the main goals - in this case, making firearms last longer and plasma available later. At least I'm trying to give most techs some sort of a boon, but it's still a long way to go.

I've definitely lost games because of how difficult it is to advance. The last game I played my base got invaded by while I was still using alloy ammo. I technically won the mission, but I lost pretty much the entire base when a structure got destroyed right below the access lift.

Ouch. Never happened to me, but it could well happen... It could happen in vanilla too.

In my most recent game, I only very narrowly avoided a loss. Gazers started appearing very early on, and they're almost impossible to handle when you're using alloy ammo. It got to the point where I'd only be able to actually do about a third of them missions that popped up. My only saving grace was that floaters and those floating brain bastards would attack all of my secondary bases constantly, so I could grab a few points that way.

Since 0.8, I've pushed the tougher races later, but it's still not guaranteed you'll have lasers on time, much less plasma. This is something that I'm still working on.

Even more importantly though is the absolutely terrible luck I had with catching engineers, and the worse luck I had with research topics from leaders/commanders. I didn't get a single engineer of any race until September. I was using alloy ammo until November, when I finally got gauss. I then used gauss until April of next year, where I got plasma, fusion and the psy amp (after getting psy powers in February of the first year). Yes, I said plasma and fusion. I got plasma weapons and blaster bombs before any of the laser techs. It was absurd.

Lol :)

Edit: I guess the takeaway is that it'd be nice if the leaders/commanders dropped research topics in a specific order. I shouldn't unlock how to mass produce guided fusion warheads before I figure out the MIB laser pistol.

It can't be done, but considering it's basically random data stolen from a far more advanced culture, some schizotech is justified. :)

- New UFOPedia Edit. A-lot of minor corrections. en-US and en-GB are now consistent, with differences between US and UK spelling (armor v.s. armour) maintained. Edited 0.93 entries. Will correct inconsistent spacing at beginning of sentence issue caused by previous editing program after the next update.

Thanks! Incorporating it will take some time, but I'll definitely use your expertise, it's invaluable.

I'll use this as an excuse to ask: what is your opinion on double spacing? I know it's a traditional British thing, but I noticed that it's not perfectly consistent and most modders ignore this rule. I generally use it, since the vanilla version had it, but I'm not sure now...

- Any intention to include content from 'Equal Terms' mod? I am particularly interested in the inclusion of UFO Extender accuracy stats for various weapons. (Though that I personally also never liked the HC and AC is beside the point ::)

I don't really know that mod yet, I need to get a better look. But what do you mean, UFO Extender accuracy stats?

  What about the 'Enforcer' and 'Scout Armor' mods?
  If not, No worries. I'll likely just include them in my own Home-Brew version.

The Enforcer is a cool idea, but I'm waiting for code changes that will stop him from eating the weapon you gave him. :(

As for the Scout Armour, I'll certainly consider it if it has proper graphics. I just don't know. :)

- Love the good work you've done on this. I myself regularly run games with 10-30 mods to enhance the depth and scope of game play, but tweaking them so that they all work seamlessly together and are balanced is a huge project that I regularly do not have time for. I truly appreciate the magnitude of the task you've taken on.

Thanks! It's the main goal of FMP. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 07, 2014, 02:02:55 am
(https://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/09/06/e6c5ab9d5e69235a2de3f88ca68e1d78.jpg)this play is a joke. Another ghost site

Enviado desde mi LG-D802 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 07, 2014, 02:11:18 am
Lol, dat "screenshot" :P

But there seems to be a problem. What exactly is that UFO? Is it MiB? Hybrids? Raid?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Jayden Hawke on September 07, 2014, 03:22:41 am
Quote
I'll use this as an excuse to ask: what is your opinion on double spacing? I know it's a traditional British thing, but I noticed that it's not perfectly consistent and most modders ignore this rule. I generally use it, since the vanilla version had it, but I'm not sure now...

- Personally I am in favor of it as it is part of the original game, also in my opinion, it looks neater. The removal of it in my previous edits was due to the previous editing app I was using on my phone rather than a preference.

Quote
I don't really know that mod yet, I need to get a better look. But what do you mean, UFO Extender accuracy stats?

-As you likely know, UFO Extender added Range Based Accuracy, which was carried over into OpenXCOM as an optional rule in the Advanced menu. With this option enable the game has the ability to read extra range related stats from the Item entry. Specifically, Range based accuracy drop-off and min/Max effective ranges for each attack type outside of which the accuracy is drastically reduced. Equal Terms mod defines theses extra variables for the weapons included in it and the base game so that for example: using a sniper rifle to perform an aimed shot within it's minimum range actually has a realistically reduced accuracy. This combined with the reduced speed and  accuracy of a snapshot with this weapon practically requires your sniper to carry and use a short/med range secondary weapon. There are many other such additions that altogether fairly remove the 'silver bullets' of a heavy weapon combined with autoshot and forces a more varied tactical approach to equipment and attack profiles.

Quote
The Enforcer is a cool idea, but I'm waiting for code changes that will stop him from eating the weapon you gave him. :(

-I was actually planning to add to the Franken-Mod I use at home a MkII Enforcer with heavier armor and a flamethrower secondary, and a MkIII with flying capability and a rocket launcher either as primary or secondary. Probably have to drop the MkI's armor a bit and then only slightly improve those stats for the MkII and MkIII and drop their TU's a little(representing greater weight) for the sake of maintaining some illusion of game balance. If I get it working, I will attempt to contact MickTheMage to either hand the changes over to him or permission to publish it as an expanded version.

Quote
As for the Scout Armour, I'll certainly consider it if it has proper graphics. I just don't know. :)

- The graphics are good, though I personally don't like the helmet.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 07, 2014, 03:50:28 am
Lol, dat "screenshot" :P

But there seems to be a problem. What exactly is that UFO? Is it MiB? Hybrids? Raid?
I am early in the new game. I dont know but is the secon ind sea i see over 20 secs and run out. The skiranger no see alien base. Normally the mib base stay static dont move. I dont know.

Can i save the game and see anithing in save file for this??

Enviado desde mi LG-D802 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 07, 2014, 11:31:42 am
- Personally I am in favor of it as it is part of the original game, also in my opinion, it looks neater. The removal of it in my previous edits was due to the previous editing app I was using on my phone rather than a preference.

Ah, that explains it, thanks.

-As you likely know, UFO Extender added Range Based Accuracy, which was carried over into OpenXCOM as an optional rule in the Advanced menu. With this option enable the game has the ability to read extra range related stats from the Item entry. Specifically, Range based accuracy drop-off and min/Max effective ranges for each attack type outside of which the accuracy is drastically reduced. Equal Terms mod defines theses extra variables for the weapons included in it and the base game so that for example: using a sniper rifle to perform an aimed shot within it's minimum range actually has a realistically reduced accuracy. This combined with the reduced speed and  accuracy of a snapshot with this weapon practically requires your sniper to carry and use a short/med range secondary weapon. There are many other such additions that altogether fairly remove the 'silver bullets' of a heavy weapon combined with autoshot and forces a more varied tactical approach to equipment and attack profiles.

But FMP has already implemented these features! :) Granted, it's not exactly a robust system yet, but it's there and will be expanded upon.

-I was actually planning to add to the Franken-Mod I use at home a MkII Enforcer with heavier armor and a flamethrower secondary, and a MkIII with flying capability and a rocket launcher either as primary or secondary. Probably have to drop the MkI's armor a bit and then only slightly improve those stats for the MkII and MkIII and drop their TU's a little(representing greater weight) for the sake of maintaining some illusion of game balance. If I get it working, I will attempt to contact MickTheMage to either hand the changes over to him or permission to publish it as an expanded version.

I want more armours too, but they're problematic because they need complex graphics. Therefore they will appear when they will appear.
However, I have my own ideas about what kind of armours are needed... So any graphics submitted may be used for something else than intended by the author. :D
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on September 07, 2014, 01:05:32 pm
Rejoice, Warboy's new engine update allows for HWP secondary weapons so the "inventory eating" should happen less often... Btw does anyone know what the new ruleset options are used in detail?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Alex_D on September 08, 2014, 03:42:16 am
A question about the craft plasma cannon. It uses Elerium as ammunition.

I noticed that the craft appears to  re-arm with clips of 10 units of Elerium as opposite to the numbers of shots used. I tried:

Normal two gun mount and shooting:
Stock 128-6(one ufo)-4(another ufo)= 118 but it's 108 after re-arming. So 10 more than expected is used.

Tried shooting with only one gun:
Stock 108 -2 (from gun#1 only) = 106, but it's 98 after re-arming. So 8 more.

The mod ruleset says:
  - type: STR_ELERIUM_115
    clipSize: 1

Am I doing something wrong? Currently using the plasma beam cannon may not be very elerium-bang-effective.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: MeatLoaf on September 08, 2014, 03:49:00 pm
Would it be possible to add in stun rounds for the blaster launcher? Researchable after stun bombs, stun grenades and blaster bombs perhaps and made using 2 stun bombs and 1 elerium.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 08, 2014, 05:57:33 pm
A question about the craft plasma cannon. It uses Elerium as ammunition.

I noticed that the craft appears to  re-arm with clips of 10 units of Elerium as opposite to the numbers of shots used. I tried:

Normal two gun mount and shooting:
Stock 128-6(one ufo)-4(another ufo)= 118 but it's 108 after re-arming. So 10 more than expected is used.

Tried shooting with only one gun:
Stock 108 -2 (from gun#1 only) = 106, but it's 98 after re-arming. So 8 more.

The mod ruleset says:
  - type: STR_ELERIUM_115
    clipSize: 1

Am I doing something wrong? Currently using the plasma beam cannon may not be very elerium-bang-effective.

Bluntly speaking, I'm not sure. I did some testing back when I introduced the weapon, but I'm not able to decipher the code.
However, whatever the case, I think both mechanics are acceptable, although naturally one is easier on the player than the other.

Would it be possible to add in stun rounds for the blaster launcher? Researchable after stun bombs, stun grenades and blaster bombs perhaps and made using 2 stun bombs and 1 elerium.

Yeah, it'd be possible. I'm not sure if I'll do it for the Blaster Launcher, but there's also a possible Advanced Rocket Launcher coming up, and I'll consider adding guided stunning missiles to one of them.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Alex_D on September 09, 2014, 10:28:11 am
Bluntly speaking, I'm not sure. I did some testing back when I introduced the weapon, but I'm not able to decipher the code.
However, whatever the case, I think both mechanics are acceptable, although naturally one is easier on the player than the other.

I did some testing. It appears the number 10 is hard-coded somehow. Based on the 2014_09_08_0214 nightly:

use of Elerium as ammo = INT( 10 / clipSize ) * ROUNDUP( #roundsfired / 10 , 0 ); where clipSize >=1 and integer.

Boring raw data:
"test.sav"
    clipSize: 1 == 126 -8x2 (8 shots from two guns 42/42) = 110, but it reports 106 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 2 == 126 -8x2 (8 shots from two guns 42/42) = 110, but it reports 116 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 3 == 126 -8x2 (8 shots from two guns 42/42) = 110, but it reports 120 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 4 == 126 -8x2 (8 shots from two guns 42/42) = 110, but it reports 122 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 5 == 126 -8x2 (8 shots from two guns 42/42) = 110, but it reports 122 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 6 == 126 -8x2 (8 shots from two guns 42/42) = 110, but it reports 124 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 7 == 126 -8x2 (8 shots from two guns 42/42) = 110, but it reports 124 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 8 == 126 -8x2 (8 shots from two guns 42/42) = 110, but it reports 124 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 9 == 126 -8x2 (8 shots from two guns 42/42) = 110, but it reports 124 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 10 == 126 -8x2 (8 shots from two guns 42/42) = 110, but it reports 124 elerium units after rearming.


"test2.sav"
    clipSize: 1 == 126 -15x1 (15 shots from gun #1 35/50) = 111, but it reports 106 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 2 == 126 -15x1 (15 shots from gun #1 35/50) = 111, but it reports 116 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 3 == 126 -15x1 (15 shots from gun #1 35/50) = 111, but it reports 120 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 4 == 126 -15x1 (15 shots from gun #1 35/50) = 111, but it reports 122 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 5 == 126 -15x1 (15 shots from gun #1 35/50) = 111, but it reports 122 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 6 == 126 -15x1 (15 shots from gun #1 35/50) = 111, but it reports 124 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 7 == 126 -15x1 (15 shots from gun #1 35/50) = 111, but it reports 124 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 8 == 126 -15x1 (15 shots from gun #1 35/50) = 111, but it reports 124 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 9 == 126 -15x1 (15 shots from gun #1 35/50) = 111, but it reports 124 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 10 == 126 -15x1 (15 shots from gun #1 35/50) = 111, but it reports 124 elerium units after rearming.


"test3.sav"
    clipSize: 1 == 126 -1x1 (1 shot from gun #1 49/50) = 125, but it reports 116 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 2 == 126 -1x1 (1 shot from gun #1 49/50) = 125, but it reports 121 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 3 == 126 -1x1 (1 shot from gun #1 49/50) = 125, but it reports 123 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 4 == 126 -1x1 (1 shot from gun #1 49/50) = 125, but it reports 124 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 5 == 126 -1x1 (1 shot from gun #1 49/50) = 125, but it reports 124 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 6 == 126 -1x1 (1 shot from gun #1 49/50) = 125, but it reports 125 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 7 == 126 -1x1 (1 shot from gun #1 49/50) = 125, but it reports 125 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 8 == 126 -1x1 (1 shot from gun #1 49/50) = 125, but it reports 125 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 9 == 126 -1x1 (1 shot from gun #1 49/50) = 125, but it reports 125 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 10 == 126 -1x1 (1 shot from gun #1 49/50) = 125, but it reports 125 elerium units after rearming.


"test4.sav"
    clipSize: 1 == 126 -50x1 (50 shots from gun #1 0/50) = 76, but it reports 76 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 2 == 126 -50x1 (50 shots from gun #1 0/50) = 76, but it reports 101 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 3 == 126 -50x1 (50 shots from gun #1 0/50) = 76, but it reports 111 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 4 == 126 -50x1 (50 shots from gun #1 0/50) = 76, but it reports 116 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 5 == 126 -50x1 (50 shots from gun #1 0/50) = 76, but it reports 116 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 6 == 126 -50x1 (50 shots from gun #1 0/50) = 76, but it reports 121 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 7 == 126 -50x1 (50 shots from gun #1 0/50) = 76, but it reports 121 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 8 == 126 -50x1 (50 shots from gun #1 0/50) = 76, but it reports 121 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 9 == 126 -50x1 (50 shots from gun #1 0/50) = 76, but it reports 121 elerium units after rearming.
    clipSize: 10 == 126 -50x1 (50 shots from gun #1 0/50) = 76, but it reports 121 elerium units after rearming.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 09, 2014, 10:30:08 am
Thanks for your hard work, Alex.

Do you think this information could be added to the Ufopedia wiki?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on September 09, 2014, 11:11:02 am
the "hardcoded" "10" is the rearming rate

there seems to be a buggy calculation in
Code: [Select]
int CraftWeapon::rearm(const int available, const int clipSize)
{
int needed = 0;
if (clipSize > 0)
{ https:// +(clipSize - 1) for correct rounding up
needed = std::min(_rules->getRearmRate(), _rules->getAmmoMax() - _ammo + clipSize - 1) / clipSize;
}
int ammoUsed = (available >= needed)? _rules->getRearmRate() : available * clipSize;
setAmmo(_ammo + ammoUsed);
_rearming = _ammo < _rules->getAmmoMax();
return (clipSize <= 0)? 0 : ammoUsed / clipSize;
}
the
int ammoUsed = (available >= needed)? _rules->getRearmRate() : available * clipSize;
should be
int ammoUsed = (available >= needed)? needed * clipSize : available * clipSize;

but that is just a guess i do not have the time to test now :(
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 09, 2014, 06:21:22 pm
  spanish translation v2
https://www.mediafire.com/view/kpq6lipfj9iyyc5/FinalModPack.rul

update to 10/9/14

is pending of correction but is mi working initial release
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on September 12, 2014, 07:53:53 pm
I finished with the Alien commanders of the original X-com (except Muton what already done):
https://www.mediafire.com/download/aflcbnc4apvnrac/OriginalAlienCommanders.zip
The zip contains the following:
- PCK and TAB files of the commanders (sheet bmp files also included but PCKview export them different size like the FMP png sheets have, so I put them back into PCK)
- Inventory pictures
- Ufopedia pictures (I liked the XenoOps muton commander entry, maybe alien commanders have separate "alive" pedia entries?)

Also wonder if Ethereal commanders may not wield weapon but bear the same psi-blast what Cerebreals AND mind controll abilities... Afterall they are the strongest psykers of their kind not?

And if elements shall borrowed from XenoOps mod may I ask that all the new aliens shall borrowed? Both muton guards and the armoured sectoid?
Maybe it is just me but I like the new aliens more than new weapons or such. It makes encounters more variable and not always Sectoids-floaters-mutons line-up like the vanilla X-com had...
And it may result more complex hybrid crews (raiders if remember correctly their "callsign").
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 12, 2014, 09:20:35 pm
Thanks, Duke! I've checked and what I think:

- Floater is nice, though I had something like this already.
- Ethereal: DAT SWAG! An interesting concept, though it'd need some polishing, especially the battlesprite.
- Snakeman: owwwww, why did you give the cloak the same colour as the skin? Why not green, for example? Yeah, green would be good. Or maybe black.
- Sectoid: I don't really like the idea of an armour as rank indicator. It's a different gear, doesn't belong with the concept.

Also wonder if Ethereal commanders may not wield weapon but bear the same psi-blast what Cerebreals AND mind controll abilities... Afterall they are the strongest psykers of their kind not?

It's possible, but I'm not really convinced it would make much of a difference. Cerebreals are more unique this way, and Ethereals, well, have hands. :)

And if elements shall borrowed from XenoOps mod may I ask that all the new aliens shall borrowed? Both muton guards and the armoured sectoid?

I'll have to think about it. Anyway, these sprites are ready, so I can integrate them myself.

Maybe it is just me but I like the new aliens more than new weapons or such. It makes encounters more variable and not always Sectoids-floaters-mutons line-up like the vanilla X-com had...
And it may result more complex hybrid crews (raiders if remember correctly their "callsign").

I totally agree! And I plan to get rid of the TFTD sprites too (essentially made new ones for the recoloured TFTD aliens), so that we could have proper hybrid games. B)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: myk002 on September 12, 2014, 10:12:55 pm
I noticed that the version listed at the top of https://www.openxcom.com/mod/final-mod-pack is 0.9.2.  Isn't 0.9.3 out?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 12, 2014, 10:29:23 pm
I noticed that the version listed at the top of https://www.openxcom.com/mod/final-mod-pack is 0.9.2.  Isn't 0.9.3 out?

Yeah, it's hard to update the number in all the places. :P
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 13, 2014, 12:52:08 am
Yeah, it's hard to update the number in all the places. :P

and update with the translation to spanish XD

Pd may be a fail in research tree. I can research baterie of elerium. But i dont see elerium to research at this moment???
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on September 13, 2014, 11:27:39 am
Quote
Thanks, Duke! I've checked and what I think:

- Floater is nice, though I had something like this already.
- Ethereal: DAT SWAG! An interesting concept, though it'd need some polishing, especially the battlesprite.
- Snakeman: owwwww, why did you give the cloak the same colour as the skin? Why not green, for example? Yeah, green would be good. Or maybe black.
- Sectoid: I don't really like the idea of an armour as rank indicator. It's a different gear, doesn't belong with the concept.
- I though I shall give some more shades for the Ethereal gem and the "ribbons" just forgot to use the good palette and PS messed up like that. As it has now use the good palette (since it is in PCK) I shall work on it.
- Green cloak? Hmmmm... I think they shall disappear on grass or jungle much like Mutons do. But black - dark grey - is a good idea. I shall give it a try (want to change the inventory\pedia aswell or they may have green or golden or whatever).
- For Sectoid I first wanted something like I used in my OG-conversion: Sectoid head with Ethereal body... But Sectoid have more sprite sequences in different order and it may cause some trouble... And most of the users may laugh upon the result as such scale it looks hilarious. Then I recently finished XenoOps where the armoured sectoids description give me the idea. Sectoids do not use armour as they regard themselves as expendable? But Commanders must be rare and thus not as expendable, right? So a bit more protection for them seemed a good idea. I want to keep the armour but eager to give it a red cloak (then it shall have a meaning to have an armour). Or give them also a one-eye optical implant? Sectoids are hard to edit toward whatever ways...
Quote
I totally agree! And I plan to get rid of the TFTD sprites too (essentially made new ones for the recoloured TFTD aliens), so that we could have proper hybrid games. B)
What if you keep the current sprites and the new colour-adapted ones could be the Commanders? For Reptoid and Chtonite it may be explained by gender diversity assuming that males\females are stronger in those species and thus "rule" the weaker gender. The current red Reptoids may be the females, for example, sampled like the dragons in a film I saw once (there were thousand female dragons but only one, big and aggressive male). OR (!) it could be explained that sub-adults (line or low-rank specimens) are not exactly looks like as adults (commanders, as age make wiser as they say). What missing, trully missing, is the corpse floorobj-sprite for the Salamandron (I checked and my FMP did not contain such a sprite among the resources and thus the game show them as dead Reapers).
And I shall soon send two new aliens if interested (well, one since the "Crabman" is a Lobsterman where I corrected the death animation sprites as they were devoit of dark and brown pixels). Maybe not the most imaginative aliens but I used them to train my non-existing pixel-art skills.
Also there is a tons of Ufopedia pictures in my topic (well, the Tunlun still ugly but overall the rest is useable, still need Chtonite and Cerebreal larvas though). And drop together a quick crystal sword for aliens (the one the Floaters use on the examine room graphic).

Ahhh, I work on to much thing and most of them is useless. Take them as concepts...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: zetzet13 on September 13, 2014, 11:39:19 am
Hi!
I totally enjoy this mod because I had to restart so often.
Sometimes it gets tedious to start from scratch but every game is so different after the first weeks.

I ran into a game breaking problem after I had upgraded to this nightly: openxcom_git_master_2014_09_13_0319

In the terror mission in this game I wanted my tank to shot, but that crashes the game.
I don't know if it's the nightly update or the mod pack because I didn't play much and my tank hadn't fired until now so the last few battlescape missions were okay.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 13, 2014, 12:37:44 pm
- I though I shall give some more shades for the Ethereal gem and the "ribbons" just forgot to use the good palette and PS messed up like that. As it has now use the good palette (since it is in PCK) I shall work on it.

OK, we'll see what happens.

- Green cloak? Hmmmm... I think they shall disappear on grass or jungle much like Mutons do. But black - dark grey - is a good idea. I shall give it a try (want to change the inventory\pedia aswell or they may have green or golden or whatever).

Yeah, green tends to disappear on grass, though I never thought that much of it. Anyway, please do what you think is best!

- For Sectoid I first wanted something like I used in my OG-conversion: Sectoid head with Ethereal body... But Sectoid have more sprite sequences in different order and it may cause some trouble... And most of the users may laugh upon the result as such scale it looks hilarious. Then I recently finished XenoOps where the armoured sectoids description give me the idea. Sectoids do not use armour as they regard themselves as expendable? But Commanders must be rare and thus not as expendable, right? So a bit more protection for them seemed a good idea. I want to keep the armour but eager to give it a red cloak (then it shall have a meaning to have an armour). Or give them also a one-eye optical implant? Sectoids are hard to edit toward whatever ways...What if you keep the current sprites and the new colour-adapted ones could be the Commanders?

Yeah, armoured Sectoids from XenoOperations are bizarre, but tempting. How about this:
- Create a rare race of Sectoids, call them Mechtoids, use XOps' sprites (he agreed) for them.
- Also take the Mechtoid armour, recolour it, make it Commander.

This will preserve a sense of coherence.

For Reptoid and Chtonite it may be explained by gender diversity assuming that males\females are stronger in those species and thus "rule" the weaker gender. The current red Reptoids may be the females, for example, sampled like the dragons in a film I saw once (there were thousand female dragons but only one, big and aggressive male). OR (!) it could be explained that sub-adults (line or low-rank specimens) are not exactly looks like as adults (commanders, as age make wiser as they say). What missing, trully missing, is the corpse floorobj-sprite for the Salamandron (I checked and my FMP did not contain such a sprite among the resources and thus the game show them as dead Reapers).

As for the Reptoids, I don't worry about them much, since I am going to make new sprites for them. The reason is, TFTD is coming up and I don't want to use simple recolours in the same game (assuming hybrid games will be possible).

Salamandrons are missing the dead tile sprites because Dioxine hasn't ripped them. :) His reasoning was that a dead Triscene looks very, very dead, and it hurt his sense of immersion when the lizard was merely incapacitated, so he used the Reaper corpse as a lesser evil. I... never got around to rip it myself.

Oh, and the Salamandron will have to be changed too due to the TFTD, but in this case I think a simple recolour will be enough.

Hi!
I totally enjoy this mod because I had to restart so often.
Sometimes it gets tedious to start from scratch but every game is so different after the first weeks.

Thanks! And congratulations on your patience! :)

I ran into a game breaking problem after I had upgraded to this nightly: openxcom_git_master_2014_09_13_0319

In the terror mission in this game I wanted my tank to shot, but that crashes the game.
I don't know if it's the nightly update or the mod pack because I didn't play much and my tank hadn't fired until now so the last few battlescape missions were okay.

I haven't updated the exe for a few weeks, I should do it at some point.

But tell me, what tank was it? What was the target? And what terrain was used?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on September 13, 2014, 03:47:03 pm
Hi!
I totally enjoy this mod because I had to restart so often.
Sometimes it gets tedious to start from scratch but every game is so different after the first weeks.

I ran into a game breaking problem after I had upgraded to this nightly: openxcom_git_master_2014_09_13_0319

In the terror mission in this game I wanted my tank to shot, but that crashes the game.
I don't know if it's the nightly update or the mod pack because I didn't play much and my tank hadn't fired until now so the last few battlescape missions were okay.
I haven't updated the exe for a few weeks, I should do it at some point.

But tell me, what tank was it? What was the target? And what terrain was used?
from irc
Quote
build 2014-09-11 09:45, and every build afterwards, crashes xcom when popping smokes from a modded-in drone camera unit (lebashar rebalanced and MIB are installed). Crash happens the moment sfx for projectile hitting the ground plays.
can you open up whatever ruleset adds the drone camera and put the weapon up on pastebin or something?
specifically, the ammo the smoke launcher uses, and the hitAnimation defined for it
hitAnimation: 26
change that to 0
hitAnimation refers to the sprite to use when a projectile hits its target
for HE/smoke/incendiary weapons this field did nothing whatsoever
until about two days ago when i made the explosion sprites moddable
the explosion spritesheet has 8 entries, using hitAnimation: 26 tells it to start at frame 26. there is no frame 26
the author probably got this via lazy copy/paste, and as it was vestigial at the time, it went unnoticed
Bet that broke a bunch of mods. Take THAT mods!
que sera sera
they'll be thanking me later
also: please post this error in the thread for whichever mod this is
so hopefully i don't get inundated with reports for this issue :P
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 13, 2014, 07:29:15 pm
Thanks Falko. I fixed the issue.

Wanted to post a new version today, but there's so many new possibilities and so much new content that I can't stop modding! :) I'll try to do it soon though.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on September 13, 2014, 07:41:40 pm
Recoloured the snakeman's cloak to black\grey. Now test it in-game how it looks like.

https://www.mediafire.com/download/gyqq2xfticpilmt/AltoidCrabmanDuo.zip
These are my "things" I mentioned earlier. Maybe Altoid could be the Sectoid commander, but they looks much different (Altoids are recolour but have sense instead of Aquatoids on dry land).
My current idea to Sectoid commander is to keep the armour, just recolour the purple parts and give them a green cloak, or black cloak with green edges instead of golden. The reworked sprites in Paint looks promising so far.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: guille1434 on September 13, 2014, 09:40:37 pm
Checking the Xcom1 basic ruleset and the FMP ruleset I found that there are several weapons with the  hitAnimation: 26 line... Should all of them be changed to hitAnimation: 0 or this is necessary only for the weapons that make HE/Smoke/Incendiary damage?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: ivandogovich on September 13, 2014, 09:43:35 pm

Checking the Xcom1 basic ruleset and the FMP ruleset I found that there are several weapons with the  hitAnimation: 26 line... Should all of them be changed to hitAnimation: 0 or this is necessary only for the weapons that make HE/Smoke/Incendiary damage?


Only those that have HE/Smoke/Incendiary damage. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: the_third_curry on September 13, 2014, 11:47:33 pm
Two minor things that I've noticed:

1) In the alien bases, it's possible to walk diagonally through at the pictured area without opening either door.

2) This one is a bit nit-picky, but the "Alloy Skyranger" name tends to slightly overflow the text space at several areas.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: XCOMFan419 on September 14, 2014, 10:07:46 pm
I just realized that FMP is the Long War mod for OXC
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 14, 2014, 10:43:14 pm
Long war is long war XD... But is similar agree the best of actual modders and put the game more interesting. I only use fmp

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Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 14, 2014, 10:45:44 pm
Version 0.9.4 is up, and it contains many changes!
- Finally coded the Alien Electronics component, necessary for building Sectopods and Stormtrooper Armours (and possibly more in the future) and only available by disassembling alien robots.
- Made Auto Cannon, Heavy Cannon and Proximity Mine researchable (at a small cost).
- Added Tactical Sniper Rifle (sprite by Dioxine).
- Added Landmine (available to buy).
- Added new Stormtrooper Armour (sprites by XOps).
- Added Multi-Launcher (sprite provided by RSS Wizard).
- Added Advanced Rocket launcher (sprite ripped from Shadow Warrior, converted by Dioxine) that fires Large Rocket, Elerium Rocket (ripped from Xenonauts, converted by Dioxine) and Mind Guided Rocket (by Clownagent, formerly launched from Rocket Launcher).
- Added special sprites for Sectoid Commander (made by XOps), Muton Engineer (made by Dioxine) and Floater Commander.
- Added new Muton ranks: Praetorian and Guard (sprites by XOps).
- Added a machete (for hybrids and other rabble).
- Salamandron can bite now (beta feature, we'll see if it works properly).
- Shorter arrival time for craft cannon rounds.
- Alloy Sword takes more storage space.
- Made the Elerium Mace a bit more accurate, but requires Alien Subjugation.
- Removed two faulty UFO maps.
- Tank/Laser Cannon is a separate (cheap) research now, because of new coding possibilities with the latest nightly that will soon be used.
- Updated Hobbes' Mission/Terrain Pack mod.
- Fixed a bug with drone smoke launcher.
- Fixed new UFO maps, by Grzegorzj.
- More English fixes by Jayden.

As always, get it here: https://www.openxcom.com/mod/final-mod-pack. But before installing, please download the latest nightly, or you may experience some bad mojo!

Recoloured the snakeman's cloak to black\grey. Now test it in-game how it looks like.

https://www.mediafire.com/download/gyqq2xfticpilmt/AltoidCrabmanDuo.zip
These are my "things" I mentioned earlier. Maybe Altoid could be the Sectoid commander, but they looks much different (Altoids are recolour but have sense instead of Aquatoids on dry land).
My current idea to Sectoid commander is to keep the armour, just recolour the purple parts and give them a green cloak, or black cloak with green edges instead of golden. The reworked sprites in Paint looks promising so far.

I actually like the Altoids concept, though they should be a bit more different visually from their Sectoid brethren. And as I said before, I'm unwilling to add more TFTD races, because they'll be clashing with a possible hybrid game, so I don't really want the Crab Men.

Having said that, Paint and .bmp is not suitable for sprites. At all. If I wanted to use them now, i wouldn't know where to start; processing them to a stage where they could be used would be a lot of work.

Why don't you make a mod yourself, and see how it works out? You have the sprites, all that is needed is the ruleset. Take Robin's gazer race, for example, and modify it.

And speaking of space-faring alien races, you know what we could have? The Aerials. You know, those from X-Com Interceptor (not the SOAD song).

Two minor things that I've noticed:

1) In the alien bases, it's possible to walk diagonally through at the pictured area without opening either door.

Yeah, I noticed that too. I'll have a look at this map at some point, but I'm not sure if it's a bug.

2) This one is a bit nit-picky, but the "Alloy Skyranger" name tends to slightly overflow the text space at several areas.

Any ideas on how to name the craft? Airstraker? Stormranger? :)

I just realized that FMP is the Long War mod for OXC

And ever getting longer. :)

Thanks for the praise, guys. I promise to keep providing more.


EDIT:

The new Tactical Sniper Rifle is positioned incorrectly. It's a small glitch though which most people probably won't even notice, so I won't be releasing a new version just to fix this. Anyone who cares can fix it by modifying this part:

Code: [Select]
  - type: STR_HEAVY_SNIPER_RIFLE
    size: 0.3
    costSell: 11000
    weight: 14
    bigSprite: 193
    floorSprite: 174
    handSprite: 136
    bulletSprite: 14
    fireSound: 62
    compatibleAmmo:
      - STR_HEAVY_SNIPER_RIFLE_CLIP
      - STR_HEAVY_SNIPER_RIFLE_HE_CLIP
      - STR_HEAVY_SNIPER_RIFLE_AA_CLIP
    accuracyAimed: 150
    tuAimed: 80
    battleType: 1
    twoHanded: true
    invWidth: 2
    invHeight: 3
    armor: 20
    listOrder: 2215

Change invWidth: 2 to invWidth: 1 to fix the weapon.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: guille1434 on September 15, 2014, 06:31:54 am
Hello Solarius:

 Reading through the new v0.9.4 ruleset I saw that in the manufacturing entry for Repair Stormtrooper Armor, it says that one Flying Suit Corpse is required... May be this was copied from the Repair  Flying Suit entry and remained uncorrected?

Thanks for the new update!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 15, 2014, 08:10:01 am
Reading through the new v0.9.4 ruleset I saw that in the manufacturing entry for Repair Stormtrooper Armor, it says that one Flying Suit Corpse is required... May be this was copied from the Repair  Flying Suit entry and remained uncorrected?

That's right. :P

I'll fix it later today...


EDIT:

For now, here's the fixed ruleset.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 15, 2014, 10:01:39 am
Stormtroooer sales XD. Along the day i up with spanish trans

Enviado desde mi LG-D802 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on September 15, 2014, 11:15:50 am
Quote
Having said that, Paint and .bmp is not suitable for sprites. At all. If I wanted to use them now, i wouldn't know where to start; processing them to a stage where they could be used would be a lot of work.

Why don't you make a mod yourself, and see how it works out? You have the sprites, all that is needed is the ruleset. Take Robin's gazer race, for example, and modify it.
For sprites I use MsPaint while for the rest PhotoShop. Trully, none of these are adequate at all. That is why I re-pack the finished sheets into pck (what MUST NOT used in game, as I experienced so far!). I do not know what tools do you use but I think the beginning was pck. So I decided to make pck files.

I do not want to make a mod myself. Or not now for sure. I actively make mods for Open General what easier than OXC for sure (no coding) but still lot of work (world setting, equipment files, units and maps graphics, scenarios and campaigns just to rework a lot after playtests). It took me 7 months to finish Xeno General (I think I post it into "others" section where I do not really found Haikus so far) and now working on Fantasy General and a Dune mod parallel (and even help with People's General mods). Making OXC mod now is impossible (or needs extreme amount of energy to slow down the time) but making graphics is different. It is an excercise and finesse of something I have a paper certification already (well, the certification states I am a general artist, not digital or painter, a graphician instead, still I continously try digital medias...).

Soon pack the reworked snakeman and ethereal commanders (if I read it well, sectoid commanders not need anymore). Snakeman looks good but sometimes it is invisible (that is why not use my pck files directly). Only sometimes. I think that was the main reason why do you not mess the pck files... Or not...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 15, 2014, 12:17:44 pm
For sprites I use MsPaint while for the rest PhotoShop. Trully, none of these are adequate at all. That is why I re-pack the finished sheets into pck (what MUST NOT used in game, as I experienced so far!).

I use Photoshop as well, but why Paint? It doesn't preserve the palette, it doesn't preserve transparency, it doesn't do anything that is required when working with Openxcom. Photoshop does, so why bother with Paint? I'm just curious.

(I also use Paint, but for other stuff.)

I do not know what tools do you use but I think the beginning was pck. So I decided to make pck files.

That's not good. I mean, it could technically work, but it is not recommended at all (ask the devs). Use spritesheets or at least sprites for best results.

Soon pack the reworked snakeman and ethereal commanders (if I read it well, sectoid commanders not need anymore).

Yeah, sorry - I forgot to write this explicitly.

Snakeman looks good but sometimes it is invisible (that is why not use my pck files directly). Only sometimes. I think that was the main reason why do you not mess the pck files... Or not...

If you use the correct palette, it'll be fine. Just edit the spritesheet.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on September 15, 2014, 02:52:57 pm
Try Paint.Net instead? It's a bit more versatile.

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on September 15, 2014, 04:43:08 pm
paint.net cant edit indexed png/gif in any useful form
why are you talking about sprite software here -> https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php?topic=2676.0 is better
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 15, 2014, 05:05:10 pm
Update the spanish versio to last mod version with the fix of the sniper tactical

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxpcn4RmfZubckhuZEF4RUpmMTg/edit?usp=sharing
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Random Commander on September 15, 2014, 05:46:41 pm
Any ideas on how to name the craft? Airstraker? Stormranger? :)

How about SkyRaider?

SkyWarrior?

SkyMarshall? :P
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 15, 2014, 06:24:31 pm
in my case i rename for a order:
zone-model-number
Eur-SkyAl01 for aleation
Afri-Sky01 Normal skyranger
etc....
Asi-Rav01 for raven ....

for me is more easy to choose in the list of interceptions

normally have 10 inteceptors in dance and 2 transports
3 mainbases 1 science 2 engi and 3 both with 2 interceptors x base and 1 transport. normally all bases with 3 hangars
the rest outpost with 1 interceptor
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Sarusei on September 15, 2014, 07:42:20 pm
found a few things that seems well let's say interesting ^^"


also added some screenshots

after installing the new version of FMP i loaded a saved game which had version 0.93 maybe some of these bug are from this
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 15, 2014, 08:35:42 pm
Update the spanish versio to last mod version with the fix of the sniper tactical

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxpcn4RmfZubckhuZEF4RUpmMTg/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks! I'll add it when I sit down to mod again.

How about SkyRaider?

SkyWarrior?

SkyMarshall? :P

All are valid. :P

Machete shows 0 Dmg in the ufopedia don't think that this is intended

It is technically correct. The weapon does 0 damage by itself, but it adds the user's Strength to it (like the Alloy Sword, but unlike knives).

I must write a better description...

also Craft Gauss Cannon Roungs cost 4k to produse and sell for 160k that's a liitle bit too much

Oops. I think I screwed up here. I'll fix this ASAP.

also added some screenshots

after installing the new version of FMP i loaded a saved game which had version 0.93 maybe some of these bug are from this

The first is a common problem for me :/

The second is a missing string, I'll fix it now.

Many thanks for the info!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on September 15, 2014, 08:36:08 pm
There is only one reason why I use MsPaint: pixel editing. It is the best for me so far to edit pixel-by-pixel. And it literally not use any memory while I use it not like PhotoShop. PhotoShop+WinAmp+Mozilla+some txt files with notes and my laptop turn into a slow little slug\snail.

Anyway, both snakeman and ethereal commanders are ready but I want some experiment with them. And I saw the blue floaters' cloak lost the golden edge? May I put it back? Or it was intentional?

Anyway. Restart OXC today with the latest FMP. Bugs I found so far (not downloaded your latest attached rules as such rules always crash my OXC - maybe they also need the latest nightly?):
Right at the beginning pedia contains and show alloy vest and stormtrooper armour entries. Both are late tech (at least need alien alloys be researched I think)... Machete does 0 damage?! And not available to buy (it is also a civilian weapon?).

BUT!

Dogies! This was the best idea ever! Love them! My only heart ache is that I can not dub them like Wulfie and Sharptooth :)

And Altoids. I adapted them from Xeno General what I attached an encyclopaedia (here: https://www.mediafire.com/download/lvn7q8i9iec3bj6/Encyclopedia.exe ). XG was strongly influenced by X-com. If you read the paedia you shall understand why they resembling so much to sectoids (took me 8 days to make that encyclopaedia).

On week two I was raided by Sectoids. Sectoid commander looks strange at first but as I remember the description from XenoOps it is more than logical to use that sprite for them. Was I good idea IMO.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: guille1434 on September 15, 2014, 10:35:20 pm

And Altoids. I adapted them from Xeno General what I attached an encyclopaedia (here: https://www.mediafire.com/download/lvn7q8i9iec3bj6/Encyclopedia.exe ). XG was strongly influenced by X-com. If you read the paedia you shall understand why they resembling so much to sectoids (took me 8 days to make that encyclopaedia).

On week two I was raided by Sectoids. Sectoid commander looks strange at first but as I remember the description from XenoOps it is more than logical to use that sprite for them. Was I good idea IMO.

Hey Duke, what a nice work that Xeno General Encyclopaedia is!!! A crossover between X-Com and one of the "childs" of Panzer General (Two of my favourite ever games!!!) Where can I learn more about this mod or to be able to download it if possible?

Thanks for sharing your hard work!  8)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: the_third_curry on September 16, 2014, 07:06:56 am
How about SkyRaider?

SkyWarrior?

SkyMarshall? :P

SkyMarshall sound like the most logical progression in keeping with the Sky + law enforcement scheme.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 16, 2014, 10:49:08 am
SkyMarshall sound like the most logical progression in keeping with the Sky + law enforcement scheme.

really dont rename the ships????, for me the name is secondary i nedd to organice then!!!
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Random Commander on September 16, 2014, 12:51:35 pm
really dont rename the ships????, for me the name is secondary i nedd to organice then!!!

Well, some people mind the overflow. Would you rather have "Alloy SkyRngr" or something?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on September 16, 2014, 08:30:07 pm
Quote
Hey Duke, what a nice work that Xeno General Encyclopaedia is!!! A crossover between X-Com and one of the "childs" of Panzer General (Two of my favourite ever games!!!) Where can I learn more about this mod or to be able to download it if possible?

Thanks for sharing your hard work!  8)
Quote
Not so long ago I made a mod for the Open General platform (Turn based engine of the Panzer General 2 but wastly extended and expanded and as fully moddable as Open X-com) what is more or less based upon X-com. It interprets my version of the aliens history as how they crossed through the space and subjugated many races to twist them to those abominations what appeared on Earth finally.

The mod's installer's link and some description could be found here:
https://panzercentral.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=132&t=50241

But before you do anything with the downloaded exe (what is the installer) go here for the basic Open General and a very good description how to use, set up or mod it:
https://luis-guzman.com/

Hope you will like the mod and it's story!




FMP related...
Alien data slate is infininte source of alien tech now. Last time I could research it only once but now I can research it again and again. I sold it after three "free techs" as it may ruin the whole game :S
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on September 16, 2014, 09:31:22 pm
FMP related...
Alien data slate is infininte source of alien tech now. Last time I could research it only once but now I can research it again and again. I sold it after three "free techs" as it may ruin the whole game :S

Read the mod instructions/readme/previous posts, dude. You're supposed to turn the "SPEND RESEARCHED ITEMS" option to "ON".
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on September 16, 2014, 09:40:26 pm
Read the mod instructions/readme/previous posts, dude. You're supposed to turn the "SPEND RESEARCHED ITEMS" option to "ON".

It set as on. It was such from the beginning I started play OXC.
No problem. I sold it. And I will do so if found any more.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Sarusei on September 16, 2014, 09:48:34 pm
It set as on. It was such from the beginning I started play OXC.
No problem. I sold it. And I will do so if found any more.

works for me as intended ...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Sturm on September 16, 2014, 10:21:04 pm
And here, my friend, our opinions differ. :) In my world, supported by evidence (starting stats), these guys are hardly trained soldiers, they're field agents that take up weapons. Few of them seem to have had significant military training, no? :)
Stats don't support the theory about lack of training.

Code: [Select]
- type: MALE_CIVILIAN
    race: STR_CIVILIAN
    stats:
      tu: 35
      stamina: 65
      health: 30
      bravery: 80
      reactions: 30
      firing: 30
      throwing: 50
      strength: 20
      psiStrength: 5
      psiSkill: 0
      melee: 50

Code: [Select]
- type: XCOM
    minStats:
      tu: 50
      stamina: 40
      health: 25
      bravery: 10
      reactions: 30
      firing: 40
      throwing: 50
      strength: 20
      psiStrength: 0
      psiSkill: 0
      melee: 20
    maxStats:
      tu: 60
      stamina: 70
      health: 40
      bravery: 60
      reactions: 60
      firing: 70
      throwing: 80
      strength: 40
      psiStrength: 100
      psiSkill: 16
      melee: 40

Even min stat soldiers have higher tu and firing accuracy than civilians.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on September 17, 2014, 03:07:19 am
It set as on. It was such from the beginning I started play OXC.
No problem. I sold it. And I will do so if found any more.

What you're saying cannot be true and everyone knows that. I'm using the same mechanics in my mod for dozens of items and never once it has failed.

Regarding other things:

Skymarshall FTW.

Agreed with Sturm's logic on soldiers' stats, "training" or "lack of training" are relative things, and a civilian seems to be the only watermark available. True, this makes it hard to explain how your soldiers turn from "trained" to "superheroes"... Anyway this discussion always comes back... It's a matter of personal opinion really.

Pixel editing: you can pixel edit in Photoshop (while in Indexed Color mode). A crucial difference with Paint: your pictures do not need tedious post-processing to become useable by the game.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on September 17, 2014, 09:54:35 am
Quote
What you're saying cannot be true and everyone knows that. I'm using the same mechanics in my mod for dozens of items and never once it has failed.

I think my version failed since the first install. Not just the infinite data slate. No way to research spitter autopsy. Spitter corpse is a combat knife for me and if try pick up the game crashes.
Something went wrong along the install if only I have these troubles. Or something was wrong with the vanilla x-com?

I shall completely remove both (clean registry aswell) and reinstall everything again.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Sarusei on September 17, 2014, 11:50:07 am
well i have a strange bug to report not sure whether it is from this mod or OXC itself ...
once one of my soldiers is minde controlled and is about to act the game crashes not sure what to do about it

i instelled the latest nightly of OXC as the version 0.94 came out as well as FMP 0.94

i'll attach a save file so could anyone test if this can be reproduced?
Irina Ilie is one of the soldiers who get mind controlled
just end the turn and watch the game crash ^^"

ill also upload my option settings
mods wise i only have FMP, HQ Sound and Statstring on

forgot to mention im using lubuntu not sure whether this matters or not
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 17, 2014, 12:40:13 pm
It set as on. It was such from the beginning I started play OXC.
No problem. I sold it. And I will do so if found any more.
Update to last nightbuild

Enviado desde mi LG-D802 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: ucel on September 17, 2014, 03:18:25 pm
Version 0.9.4 is up, and it contains many changes!
[...]

As always, get it here: https://www.openxcom.com/mod/final-mod-pack. But before installing, please download the latest nightly, or you may experience some bad mojo!


Has anyone tested it under Android?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Sturm on September 18, 2014, 05:25:45 am
Agreed with Sturm's logic on soldiers' stats, "training" or "lack of training" are relative things, and a civilian seems to be the only watermark available. True, this makes it hard to explain how your soldiers turn from "trained" to "superheroes"... Anyway this discussion always comes back... It's a matter of personal opinion really.
Well, even trained soldiers are green at the start and become veterans later. I had a discussion about it with a game developer that served as a medic in military and he told me that according to research people change physiologically when they win fights - for example testosterone increases. Veterans are also less likely to die after receiving the same wound than green soldiers, so HP rising is justified to some point.
Though yeah, it's weird that they can become more powerful than alien species engineered for combat.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on September 18, 2014, 08:36:00 pm
Quote
But before installing, please download the latest nightly, or you may experience some bad mojo!

Yeah, I was such an idiot... I downloaded the necessary nightly but forgot to install it.
Now almost everything works correctly. Chtonite and Reptoids have no inventory portrait, everything is plain black. But it is not important. Mind-controll them is not worth the time. Mind-controll is pretty useless by the way... both in vanilla and in OXC. Easier to shot down anything with laser rifles or plasma rifles...

Anyway, some training facilities would be good. Cycling the 10 men crews to train them in missions has so much hassle. But need to implement a border how far their stats may improved by such facilities - like you know training do not equal with real experiences - and what could they train (bravery could be trained? Reaction, accuracy and power could be...).

Are MiB troops ever assault x-com bases? Almost a dozen of their crafts searched my base with "alien retaliation" but no battleships ever launched to attack. I always let them find my base (not shot them down with the Ravens) but they never come.
They fear :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on September 18, 2014, 08:45:04 pm
I've had a MiB assault on my base, yes.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on September 18, 2014, 10:35:29 pm
I'd be willing to do some legwork {figuratively speaking} regarding color-coding various alien ranks. Anything I should know?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Falko on September 18, 2014, 10:57:06 pm
i like more color for ranks what but the downside of this is the uselessness of mindprobe
i frequently used it to determine what aliens were worth the stunning-risk
no i can spare the 3-4 mindprobe guys in the background
for me its a bit of a gameplay change to an easier mode
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on September 18, 2014, 11:00:40 pm
Well, it varies. The mind probe can be rather useless with the line of fire option enabled as it is.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Sturm on September 19, 2014, 06:03:34 am
Well, even trained soldiers are green at the start and become veterans later. I had a discussion about it with a game developer that served as a medic in military and he told me that according to research people change physiologically when they win fights - for example testosterone increases. Veterans are also less likely to die after receiving the same wound than green soldiers, so HP rising is justified to some point.
Though yeah, it's weird that they can become more powerful than alien species engineered for combat.
I checked the manual and apparently X-Com has "the world's finest pilots, soldiers, scientists and engineers". Which would imply that realistically, these guys should be statted-out like special forces soldiers. I think there are tens of thousands of them around the world, so realistically, it would be possible to recruit only from elite units without ever being in danger of the recruit pool drying up.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Jayden Hawke on September 20, 2014, 08:40:56 am
0.94 Edit
New Entries Proofread for both en-US and en-GB. Double Spaces reinserted. Trailing spaces trimmed. Fixed broken Alloy Ammo UFOPedia reference.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 20, 2014, 11:13:15 am
Apologies I haven't been around lately, I played volleyball a lot and last night I went bowling.

well i have a strange bug to report not sure whether it is from this mod or OXC itself ...
once one of my soldiers is minde controlled and is about to act the game crashes not sure what to do about it

I haven't tested it yet, but I strongly doubt it comes from the FMP...

I'd be willing to do some legwork {figuratively speaking} regarding color-coding various alien ranks. Anything I should know?

It's a very broad question. Most of the difficulty comes to the fact that it's an artistic work. And just don't mess up the palette.

0.94 Edit
New Entries Proofread for both en-US and en-GB. Double Spaces reinserted. Trailing spaces trimmed. Fixed broken Alloy Ammo UFOPedia reference.

Thanks, will have a look ASAP.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Etchyzz on September 20, 2014, 07:20:29 pm
well i have a strange bug to report not sure whether it is from this mod or OXC itself ...
once one of my soldiers is minde controlled and is about to act the game crashes not sure what to do about it

i instelled the latest nightly of OXC as the version 0.94 came out as well as FMP 0.94

i'll attach a save file so could anyone test if this can be reproduced?
Irina Ilie is one of the soldiers who get mind controlled
just end the turn and watch the game crash ^^"

ill also upload my option settings
mods wise i only have FMP, HQ Sound and Statstring on

forgot to mention im using lubuntu not sure whether this matters or not

I have this same issue and I'm on a Sectoid mission with a very large ship...completely stuck now, can't make it to end of current turn as it crashes as soon as one of my guys gets mind controlled.

FIX PLEASE
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Etchyzz on September 20, 2014, 07:24:54 pm


I haven't tested it yet, but I strongly doubt it comes from the FMP...



I've just tested to see if it really is FMP causing the problem, here are my results

Test 1. Load current game with FMP enabled - Crash on Mind Control

Test2. Disable FMP and load current game (game just crashes, totally incompatible with vanilla)

So new Test

Test 1. Load old game with FMP enabled - Crash on mind control

Test 2. Load old game with FMP disabled - everything works fine

Result - FMP causing the problem :(
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Sarusei on September 20, 2014, 07:58:18 pm
I have this same issue and I'm on a Sectoid mission with a very large ship...completely stuck now, can't make it to end of current turn as it crashes as soon as one of my guys gets mind controlled.

FIX PLEASE
the way i got around those missions is i activated save scumming and saved everytime at the end of a turn then ended it and everytime any of my soldiers got mind controlled i loaded the save and tried to get to a turn where my soldier would resist the mind control or other actions would be taken (like panic or even berserking)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Duke_Falcon on September 20, 2014, 08:09:50 pm
I have no problem with mind-controll. Only that my snipers shot way to precise under alien controll...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Etchyzz on September 20, 2014, 08:11:44 pm
the way i got around those missions is i activated save scumming and saved everytime at the end of a turn then ended it and everytime any of my soldiers got mind controlled i loaded the save and tried to get to a turn where my soldier would resist the mind control or other actions would be taken (like panic or even berserking)

i've been using this method too, it's how i've got so far. But now i'm completely stuck, i've reloaded about 100 times and there's always a mind control. my only option now is a fix
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Sarusei on September 20, 2014, 08:34:24 pm
i've been using this method too, it's how i've got so far. But now i'm completely stuck, i've reloaded about 100 times and there's always a mind control. my only option now is a fix

indeed that sucks ...

got a question about HWPs
i noticed that there is not that much difference between the laser and plasma HWPs only 5 points more weapon power (laser 110, plasma 115, gauss 95 )
as far as normal weapons go gauss is much better than laser not sure about plasma yet don't have them researched yet
i also wanted to use a gauss tank the other day so i build one then i noticed that each shell costs 3,6k to produce and you need 60 of them to even be able to get a gauss tank in the skyranger ... imho that's a bit too much
my suggestion would be to reduce the costs or make the current gauss HWP shells behave like rifle clips so that one shell reloads a tank's mag completely
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: NoelBuddy on September 20, 2014, 09:20:55 pm
You need to start employing Commissar tactics in combination with the save scumming.  When you reload shoot the weak minded soldiers so there's no chance of them getting controlled... but again that's only an overly complicated situational fix that doesn't address the underlying issue.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Etchyzz on September 20, 2014, 09:37:34 pm
I wish i could, but I've not researched psionics. This is pretty early on, just sectoids
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Etchyzz on September 20, 2014, 10:22:29 pm
i quite like the word Commissar though :) word of the day - added to vocab
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: NoelBuddy on September 20, 2014, 10:37:47 pm
The word it's self is actually a russian word for a type of political or military officer.  But in WWII that was the rank of the officers who would stand behind the front line and shoot anyone who stepped backwards.  In Warhammer you put them in a squad and if they fail a moral check the commissar shoots the officer and the squad doesn't run away, and will kill your psychics if they screw up to prevent alien influence.

If you keep track of which troops are being controlled before the crash kill/stun them before ending the turn when you reload.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Etchyzz on September 20, 2014, 10:41:49 pm
i've been trying that, but if i kill one, they mind control another, i've not got enough time units to kill them all
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: NoelBuddy on September 20, 2014, 10:45:56 pm
crepe. :(
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 20, 2014, 10:51:04 pm
I have this same issue and I'm on a Sectoid mission with a very large ship...completely stuck now, can't make it to end of current turn as it crashes as soon as one of my guys gets mind controlled.

FIX PLEASE
Update to last nightly

Enviado desde mi LG-D802 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Etchyzz on September 20, 2014, 11:09:37 pm
i've just systematically updated to each previous nightly for the last whole week. same issue on every one.

also i've got my own thread in the troubleshooting section and somebody just told me they have the same issue using the piratez mod, not FMP

i'm out of ideas :s
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Dioxine on September 20, 2014, 11:17:14 pm
The word it's self is actually a russian word for a type of political or military officer.  But in WWII that was the rank of the officers who would stand behind the front line and shoot anyone who stepped backwards.

Untrue, that job was given to special NKWD units (rarely deployed). Soviet Union used many kinds of Commissars (non-military armed agents), one type of them was indeed assigned to squads as a political officer whose job was to keep unit's morale and dedication to the cause of the communism high (true, you spoke something politically incorrect in his presence, you could find yourself onboard one-way train to Siberia).

If the unit deserted, it was actually the Commissar (along with unit's commander) who was getting shot, privates were usually treated more lightly. Instances of officers shooting their own soldiers weren't, I think, more widespread in USSR than in any other country of these times (I think Germans did the most of it).
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Etchyzz on September 21, 2014, 02:02:01 am
a new nightly is up that fixes the problem :) thx all
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 21, 2014, 10:53:05 am
Glad the bug was fixed. This time I was right saying it wasn't my fault. :P

got a question about HWPs
i noticed that there is not that much difference between the laser and plasma HWPs only 5 points more weapon power (laser 110, plasma 115, gauss 95 )

True, but this is the vanilla formula. We could differentiate them somewhat, but that'd be a significant meddling with original content, and I'm recultant to do so with this mod (after all, it's supposed to add stuff from various mods, not modify vanilla items).

i also wanted to use a gauss tank the other day so i build one then i noticed that each shell costs 3,6k to produce and you need 60 of them to even be able to get a gauss tank in the skyranger ... imho that's a bit too much
my suggestion would be to reduce the costs or make the current gauss HWP shells behave like rifle clips so that one shell reloads a tank's mag completely

I made the bullets a bit cheaper, but you can't have tank mags in Openxcom. (It's frustrating, I know.)

EDIT:

I need some feedback from you guys: do you want multiple colour variants of X-Com armours, like in Shadics' mod (https://www.openxcom.com/mod/colored-armors)?

While it would be nice to be able to issue individual armours to your soldiers, based on rank, personality or whatever else, it would also clutter the armour selection screen, since most armours would have like 6 versions or so (identical in stats). So I'm really torn on this.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Jayden Hawke on September 21, 2014, 12:12:44 pm
I agree that it would clutter the screen though, I can see how some people would like having the option. What about making an additional .rul file that adds this feature for those who want it?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Recruit69 on September 21, 2014, 03:15:39 pm

While it would be nice to be able to issue individual armours to your soldiers, based on rank, personality or whatever else, it would also clutter the armour selection screen, since most armours would have like 6 versions or so (identical in stats). So I'm really torn on this.

I like the idea of this, but at the same time, it'll only clutter it far too much, it'll end up being more annoying than useful.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 21, 2014, 03:49:33 pm
The problem is repeat all armours in her variants. When go to manufacture select may be a chaos

Enviado desde mi LG-D802 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Sarusei on September 21, 2014, 09:14:13 pm
Quote
volutar
Today, 17:15
Most probably it's a FMP problem. Recommended addressing to mod author.

i found another oddball
check this one out

https://openxcom.org/bugs/openxcom/issues/829

i think it doesn't work because the unit is a 4 tiles unit and i only mind controled one tile? but then it should also not work outside the ship ...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Etchyzz on September 22, 2014, 01:03:06 am
Got a new problem

aliens attacked my base, but not like anything i've ever seen before.

theres snakemen, mutons, sectoids, chrysallids, cyberdiscs and 2 new aliens that i've never seen before, all attacking at the same time.

the two new aliens are Gazer's and Reptoid's

anyway, after about 30 turns i've managed to kill everything, but the game doesn't end. I've thoroughly searched the map several times and spammed up to 160 turns just to see if anything makes an appearance, but when i click end turn, it just flashes straight to new turn without any time for mobs to have a turn - as if i have everything mind controlled.

I've trapped my 4 stunned mobs in a small room where i can restun them without them running all over the place. i've even tried killing them to see if the mission ends. If I abort mission I just lose my base of course. any1 got an idea what's up?

attached is the save file
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Etchyzz on September 22, 2014, 01:27:44 am
ahaha i figured it out, I enabled debug mode and discovered a chrysallid patienly waiting upstairs not moving around - problem solved
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on September 22, 2014, 05:36:35 am
It's a very broad question. Most of the difficulty comes to the fact that it's an artistic work. And just don't mess up the palette.

Working within the palette shouldn't be an issue - I'm assuming the one from the stickied thread is the colors I'd have to work with?

What would be the format they'd be useful in? For that matter, where can I pull up the sprite sheets for all alien races? Should I try to stick to a single color scheme for each rank? Not palette swapping the entire sprite, of course, just enough details and highlights to make them recognizable.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 22, 2014, 12:59:26 pm
i found another oddball
check this one out

https://openxcom.org/bugs/openxcom/issues/829

i think it doesn't work because the unit is a 4 tiles unit and i only mind controled one tile? but then it should also not work outside the ship ...

That's interesting, but I don't think I did anything that would cause problems here. The Salamandron is a unit like a Reaper... there shouldn't be any difference. Maybe it's an engine glitch after all? Was the Salamandron on the ground?

aliens attacked my base, but not like anything i've ever seen before.

theres snakemen, mutons, sectoids, chrysallids, cyberdiscs and 2 new aliens that i've never seen before, all attacking at the same time.

Must be a Raider team. I'll leave it on, it sounds fun. :q

Working within the palette shouldn't be an issue - I'm assuming the one from the stickied thread is the colors I'd have to work with?

Frankly, I can't remember. Just take any sprite that you know works correctly and work with it. Remember to use software that doesn't do any palette optimization.

What would be the format they'd be useful in? For that matter, where can I pull up the sprite sheets for all alien races? Should I try to stick to a single color scheme for each rank? Not palette swapping the entire sprite, of course, just enough details and highlights to make them recognizable.

That's a matter of artistic preference, you must work it out yourself. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: arrakis69ct on September 22, 2014, 02:41:30 pm
ahaha i figured it out, I enabled debug mode and discovered a chrysallid patienly waiting upstairs not moving around - problem solved
How i enable debug mode???

Enviado desde mi LG-D802 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Vulgar Monkey on September 22, 2014, 06:35:05 pm
Re armour, I'd go further and say that while it's great that we can have all these different variants, it's getting to the point where it'd really benefit from the armour selection UI being given a full overhaul. If that is even possible, anyway.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Sarusei on September 22, 2014, 09:02:12 pm
That's interesting, but I don't think I did anything that would cause problems here. The Salamandron is a unit like a Reaper... there shouldn't be any difference. Maybe it's an engine glitch after all? Was the Salamandron on the ground?
im not sure in this case
 but i encountered the same bug on a different map
got control of a salamandron outside an ufo FoW outside works as always but as soon as i opend the door
the tiles of the door were cleared but nothing further
that's a really strange bug/glitch

just researched sectopod construction and noticed that sectopod laser and sectopod plasma have the same specs but sectopod plasma needs 10 more elerium  to be produced
is this intended?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on September 23, 2014, 02:44:49 am
That's a matter of artistic preference, you must work it out yourself. :)

Works for me. Still, any ideas on how to pull out the sprite sheets? I tried using pckview, but it just hangs when I try to open a file.

Edit: Nevermind, I was using an old version.
Edit Edit: But now I'm confused. Pulling up a Sectoid spritesheet, most of the colors it uses are on the palette - but not all of them. What, exactly, are the restrictions regarding color use?

Edits all the way down: Nevermind, I think I got it. For sectoids, option one might be a full-scale body recolor - considering they're all clones, being bred for specific purposes fits the theme. Option number two might just be a band around the cranium - more subtle, not sure if the placement is okay, but it might be workable.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: myk002 on September 23, 2014, 09:47:56 am
missing text in FMP 0.9.4:
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Sarusei on September 23, 2014, 05:53:26 pm
got a reply regarding the Fog issue here is a quote

Quote
from FMP rulesets:
Code: [Select]
armor: SALAMANDRON_ARMOR
    standHeight: 30

From Xcom1Ruleset:
Code: [Select]
- type: STR_REAPER_TERRORIST
    standHeight: 23
Quote
...unit height should not go above 24. FOV calcs have been capped indoors
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 23, 2014, 06:59:40 pm
just researched sectopod construction and noticed that sectopod laser and sectopod plasma have the same specs but sectopod plasma needs 10 more elerium  to be produced
is this intended?

Yes, because it has unlimited plasma shots. That's the same case as with tanks: plasma cannons need Elerium.
(Perhaps it should be overhauled, so that you produce plasma "clips" from Elerium? But currently it6's impossible for tanks.)

missing text in FMP 0.9.4:

Arrrrgh sorry. It happens periodically. I'll fix it.

got a reply regarding the Fog issue here is a quote

That's exactly what I thought, too. I'm not sure if I should change it or not, since the Salamandron is obviously taller than that and it doesn't seem to cause problems...
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: myk002 on September 24, 2014, 03:49:03 am
Got another missing text string for str_cyberdisk_disassembly in 0.9.4:
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on September 24, 2014, 08:00:28 pm
Ranked Sectoids - I opted for a simple band around their heads in favor of full recolors because, in all honesty, I think the latter would have looked more than a little silly. I briefly considered only recoloring the eyes, but that would have only identified their rank if hey were facing the camera.

Would this work?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on September 24, 2014, 08:33:07 pm
Now, floaters. I'm not sure about the commander color scheme, though.

The commander color scheme uses the Floater's default color streak, so I used a similar-looking streak instead - however, that makes the visual difference between the two rather small, and thus might be hard to distinguish between the two.

I could use an entirely different color, but I'd prefer to keep the color-coding as consistent as possible.

Or I could recolor the soldier's cloak into something else, but that's the kind of fundamental design change I'm a little leery of undertaking.

Ideas?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 24, 2014, 08:47:37 pm
I like the headpiece on the Sectoid, at least the Leader could profit from this solution. Really nice.

Floaters, yeah, they should keep their capes. I like your results, but...

...but why would you use .bmp?! :'( Not only it'll require doing the entire transparency work, but it'll be a pain to fix the sprites themselves, because I'm sure there'll be errors.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on September 24, 2014, 09:30:51 pm
I figured that's what pckview exports into, that's what would be most easily imported.

I'm guessing PNG instead?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Solarius Scorch on September 24, 2014, 09:44:08 pm
I'm guessing PNG instead?

Yes, that'd be best. Please. :)
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: Quinch on September 25, 2014, 07:35:21 pm
The core races, in glorious PNG.

I am not happy with Ethereals, but with loose robes and no distinguishing features, there's not much left to highlight. On the upside, they only have three used ranks.
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: ucel on September 26, 2014, 12:21:44 pm
Seems that I found a bug.
First of all, I' playing latest Android build, but this seems not to be a problem. I'm just started new game on Superhuman difficulty and got big ship with Sectoid Leader in January. After finishing this mission I found an alien data slate, which I have researched an next. And now the problem - after research I could investigate it again and again, so now in late February I have already researched elerium and delta radiation - and still have data slate in inventory. Should it not have been consumed after first investigation?
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: moriarty on September 26, 2014, 02:31:07 pm
Seems that I found a bug.
First of all, I' playing latest Android build, but this seems not to be a problem. I'm just started new game on Superhuman difficulty and got big ship with Sectoid Leader in January. After finishing this mission I found an alien data slate, which I have researched an next. And now the problem - after research I could investigate it again and again, so now in late February I have already researched elerium and delta radiation - and still have data slate in inventory. Should it not have been consumed after first investigation?

look in advanced options - "research consumes item" needs to be turned on manually
Title: Re: [COMPILATION][RESEARCH] FMP Core/Tech Tree part
Post by: myk002 on September 27, 2014, 03:24:32 am
I found another iss