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Author Topic: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas  (Read 6054 times)

Offline Bobit

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2020, 09:10:41 pm »

Sorry, can't comment further :P

For real? Pushing a guys gun away can be a good idea, sure, whatever, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about swords. Or, more leniently, combat knives. But combat knife vs pistol in close range, pistol wins most of the time, just the slightest bit of control and you're dead. I've heard a combat knife is more for cutting branches or bandages or smth than it is people. WW1 guns had bayonets, now everyone knows why they don't.

I wasn't trying to imply that swords shouldn't exist because it's unrealistic, if that's what you're saying. Quite the opposite. I was saying that it doesn't make that much sense to say that armor should make swords weak "because it's realistic" when swords are already very unrealistic. Realism has its place even in games about aliens and cults, but only when convenient.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 09:30:00 pm by Bobit »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2020, 03:52:02 pm »
But combat knife vs pistol in close range, pistol wins most of the time, just the slightest bit of control and you're dead.

And who said so, some TV expert? Because police statistics say otherwise (assuming point blank range, of course). There are also military records, though less consistent.

This is partially why the CQC exists in the first place.

Offline Bobit

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2020, 10:58:58 pm »
Dunno why TV experts would try to make guns OP... excluding that one indiana jones scene, it would be very convenient for movies if melee was balanced. So they pretend it is, and they should pretend it is, because it makes better movies and games for it to actually be viable.

Mentioning statistics without specifically stating them is very similar to saying "just ask ____ if you don't believe me!" to the principle. He's probably not gonna do that, so you don't technically need to back it up, but it's not a very strong argument until you do. I would expect statistics show something like "half of homicides are melee weapons" but that doesn't really mean anything because melee weapons are more accessible and concealable which isn't relevant to our situation of non-concealed missions in this game where pistols are dirt-cheap.

I was just thinking that a knife needs actual power behind the stroke. Whereas a pistol can shoot many times in a single "stroke" of pointing. Pistol is slightly more grabbable by the enemy though, since you can't exactly grab a blade.

And again I'm not arguing against CQC, that is pushing an attacker's gun away. Of course that can be a viable tactic at melee range. I'm just arguing that after you do so, using a pistol is better than a knife.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 11:18:43 pm by Bobit »

Offline vadracas

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2020, 11:09:47 pm »
Dunno why TV experts would try to make guns OP...



There has been "expert" on TV that has literally made any claim physically possible at least once, and some that aren't physically possible. What I assume he meant by TV expert is someone who gets their knowledge from TV and not the real world.


This is NOT a link to a reliable source, however it is providing Solarius's point of view on the situation: https://offgridsurvival.com/close-quarter-attacks-gun-vs-knife/


And a different, more broken down point of view from another site:
Whoever was not caught off guard to start with!
Formally trained shooter against martial artists: Even!
Street wise shooter against martial artists: The Gun!
Formally trained shooter against someone who can use a knife properly: The knife!
Street wise shooter against someone who can use a knife properly: Depends on the strategies, training and luck!

The link to that site: https://www.theprepperjournal.com/2016/10/10/whats-the-best-close-quarters-weapon-knife-or-a-gun/

Offline Meridian

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2020, 11:11:31 pm »
And who said so, some TV expert? Because police statistics say otherwise (assuming point blank range, of course). There are also military records, though less consistent.

This is partially why the CQC exists in the first place.

If the police/military isn't entirely stupid, they wouldn't ever go into a point blank range, until absolutely forced.
"Don't bring a knife into a gun fight" isn't just a saying!

According to statistics you are much more likely to survive a jump from a plane if you're a woman.
That doesn't mean you're supposed to get a gender change... it means you're not supposed to jump out of a plane without a parachute!

Offline Bobit

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2020, 11:34:03 pm »
Nice post vadracas. I am conflicted now.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2020, 02:59:15 pm »
If the police/military isn't entirely stupid, they wouldn't ever go into a point blank range, until absolutely forced.
"Don't bring a knife into a gun fight" isn't just a saying!

Exactly.

The point is not trying to subdue a person with a knife using a pistol from 1 m away.

According to statistics you are much more likely to survive a jump from a plane if you're a woman.
That doesn't mean you're supposed to get a gender change... it means you're not supposed to jump out of a plane without a parachute!

That's also true, and not something I was trying to prove... I only meant that saying "melee is always worse" is false.

Offline krautbernd

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2020, 03:41:33 pm »
Nice post vadracas. I am conflicted now.

See the wikipedia article concerning the Tueller Drill for example. Not sure what your definition of close quarters is, but apparently anything closer than 6 m / 20 ft will likely end up with you getting stabbed if you start holstered. At greater distances you're almost certain to get stabbed and incapacitated if you miss your first shot and your attacker doesn't stop/let up since you have to realign your gun with the target. Guns have an inherent disadvantage in close quarters, especially if the shooter isn't alerted to the threat. 

Melee weapons don't have to be unholstered and aimed, for one thing, nor do they have to be cocked/charged. They also can't misfire if they are improperly maintained, and even an edged weapon that isn't overly sharp can kill or incapacitate an opponent if you apply enough force. Blunt weapons can break bones and cause internal bleeding even through body armor and there's a difference between stab and spike attacks. Stab-type attacks cut (think knives/bladed weapons), while spike-type attacks (think needles/pointed objects) work by slipping through fibers that make up clothing/protection. Stab-proof vests might not protect against spike attacks and vice-versa, though there are vests that protect against both types of attacks.

The best (and historically proven) protection against melee attacks is a shield and helmet - which also protect the wearer from missile-type attacks (sling, brick, other low velocity objects). As far as I can tell guns are pretty shitty at parrying or deflecting knives, let alone anything bigger/heavier (and even if you're successful they are likely to break/misfire and you're still at a disadvantage).
« Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 04:29:52 pm by krautbernd »

Offline Bobit

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2020, 12:27:38 am »
Unholstering your pistol on reaction seems about as quick as unsheathing your knife on reaction. Same with aiming vs swinging. I suppose a gun has to be cocked and the safety turned off if you didn't do it already.

Offline justaround

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2020, 06:07:49 pm »
Hmm, this seems to be in line with the Bulletproof Coat, which is a later game armour.
But I understand you're thinking of something more, umm... rigid. As in, higher raw armour values.
If you have something else in mind, please elaborate.
Alright, once the new version hits and I'll have some time to get into it for longer I'll take a look through each armor in particular and their stats and send over certain comparisons and observations in DM for you to consider, accept and/or reject them, so you will have something more than vague impressions to go by. Sounds alright?

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2020, 01:29:36 pm »
Alright, once the new version hits and I'll have some time to get into it for longer I'll take a look through each armor in particular and their stats and send over certain comparisons and observations in DM for you to consider, accept and/or reject them, so you will have something more than vague impressions to go by. Sounds alright?

Absolutely :)

Offline Slaughter

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2020, 10:22:25 pm »
Its just me or Black Lotus Assassins have super-shy AI?

Its like they're scared of showing their faces while their buddies are getting cut down en masse. But once everyone is dead, unconscious or pannicking, they start getting all ninja and shit.

I know they are around the moment Bug Hunt mode starts showing me people next to flares who can't be seen... Even through they should be.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2020, 11:47:41 am »
Its just me or Black Lotus Assassins have super-shy AI?

Its like they're scared of showing their faces while their buddies are getting cut down en masse. But once everyone is dead, unconscious or pannicking, they start getting all ninja and shit.

I know they are around the moment Bug Hunt mode starts showing me people next to flares who can't be seen... Even through they should be.

I can't remember how exactly I did it, or even if it's really my success, but that's what I was aiming at, yes.

Offline ohartenstein23

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2020, 03:27:25 pm »
I can't remember how exactly I did it, or even if it's really my success, but that's what I was aiming at, yes.

It's a "bug" with giving units weapons with a maximum range, and you asked that the fix have a switch to leave that behavior in by unit.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2020, 03:50:52 pm »
It's a "bug" with giving units weapons with a maximum range, and you asked that the fix have a switch to leave that behavior in by unit.

I remember that, but I can't see anything special in this unit's definition. So I am at a loss.