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Author Topic: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas  (Read 9498 times)

Offline sunkship203

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Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« on: May 07, 2020, 09:18:59 pm »
You killed or captured every Black Lotus member on scene, but the mission doesn't end, so one of those damned ninjas may be hiding around...
BUT WHERE!?
You start making a cordon & search in hopes of getting contact to gun them down; suddenly, a scream, one agent has died.
They may not look lethal, but they are once you can't find them.

So... anyone knows an efficient method to deal with them once dissapeared? I usually barrage a suspected place with fire, to lure them out as the stealthy rats they are.


Offline vadracas

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2020, 09:42:46 pm »
Get in enclosed spaces with shotguns pointed at the door and they die on entrance.

Offline Bananas_Akimbo

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2020, 10:30:23 pm »
There has been a thread about this topic some time ago:
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0.html

Pretty much all of the advice in there should still apply.

Offline sunkship203

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2020, 11:15:47 pm »
There has been a thread about this topic some time ago:
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0.html

Pretty much all of the advice in there should still apply.

Perfect! didn't saw this thread around, thank you very much!

Offline Bobit

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2020, 10:23:49 pm »
The main problem is that armor gives no cutting resistance, while it gives 70% kinetic damage modifier. You could bring an exosuit, which takes half damage from cutting. But probably mines/flame/drones are better as they said. Dogs could work too I suppose just due to speed and low value, but not ideal for HQ.

Offline Thermite

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2020, 11:46:08 pm »
I use a lot of smoke all the time, which helps a lot when ninjas come along, because they aggro very little and go in trickling one at a time.

Offline Bananas_Akimbo

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2020, 12:31:30 am »
The main problem is that armor gives no cutting resistance, while it gives 70% kinetic damage modifier. You could bring an exosuit, which takes half damage from cutting. But probably mines/flame/drones are better as they said. Dogs could work too I suppose just due to speed and low value, but not ideal for HQ.

No matter what tactics you use, exosuit is the best armour against ninjas for a looong time. I would even say it is crucial. It usually means the difference between a one-hit kill and extended hospital time. You probably won't be able to outfit all your ground troops with it, before the first Black Lotus Hideouts show up. Exosuits are expensive and take long to build. Still absolutely worth it in my opinion. In very many early missions you face mostly cutting damage from critters, zombies and such. The other resistances are also pretty neat.

About Black Lotus HQ, don't worry. The terrain works in your favour. Narrow hallways, corners and lots of doors. Just use conventional tactics and mines. Camp close to doors and corners so as to nullify the ninjas' camo. Everything you can't cover enough gets mined. Most likely you will just stay in the elevators. Enemies will swarm you and you can mow them down by the dozens. After that it's just mopping up, which you should be able to do in a fairly controlled and safe manner.

Offline justaround

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2020, 09:52:08 am »
In all honesty, I wouldn't mind cutting resistance of most armors to be looked at. Even IRL, pretty common armors using tightly woven thinner types of aramid yarn (though not the popular kevlar) or ceramic plates are very resistant even against pretty heavy blades (in case of which you may get easily bruised or even get a rib broken with a very strong hit but that because the very force makes the weapon act like a blunt one -  the blade won't puncture or slash through the skin though).

As the game progresses and regular, common conventional firearms become kinda outdated (as they should be), similar should happen to already dated and primitive melee weaponry, especially when used against fully armored targets, be they enemy combatants or X-Com troopers.

Could a quick balance pass be perhaps done on it, Solarius?

Offline Bobit

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2020, 10:39:23 am »
Disagree, irl melee is useless, in-game it's already questionably viable for players. Just nerf stealth if needed.

Offline justaround

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2020, 11:30:57 am »
Disagree, irl melee is useless
While the game doesn't try to be realistic, you seem to be supporting my point. I wouldn't mind, as mentioned, regular melee becoming useless after some time against most armors. Though I also wouldn't mind some more sci-fi hardware being more common and available to some enemies (monomolecular blades, psionically-empowered melee weapons etc)
in-game it's already questionably viable for players.
Melee even late game can be quite powerful if you know how to use it and got proper equipment. Covering entrances and passage corners with melee units and/or dogs is at times so useful it seems nearly broken, if not for how much less effective it is when deployed in open field.
Just nerf stealth if needed.
I'd like to keep all black pajama Black Lotus troopers pretty stealthy. Maybe even add some stealth to other, regular faction's units. But I'd like also the stealth to be more affected by how many soldiers look in the direction of such ninja and from what distance. In passably well lit, straight corridor several troopers all looking down it someone should be able to spot even somewhat psionically gifted stealthy individual, especially when it starts throwing stuff at them.

Offline krautbernd

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2020, 12:53:13 pm »
Disagree, irl melee is useless, in-game it's already questionably viable for players.
FYI, I have depopulated multiple UFOs early in the game by simply stabbing all the sectoids to death. Reaction fire becomes much less a problem if they can't aim properly. Don't fight them outside. Fight them inside and give them a hug when they come through the door.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 12:56:03 pm by krautbernd »

Offline Bobit

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2020, 07:53:46 pm »
The tendency for doorcamping melees is for the enemy to get a shot off on them anyway (which is a CQB shot and the enemy dies immediately after, sure), and then the 3 enemies behind the now-dead enemy shoot through the doorway at a very exposed target. It's good, yes, but with the high training cost, hordes of enemies with automatic weapons, and high TUs needed to use melee effectively requiring risking an elite unit, one wonders whether a simple shotgun or smg rookie might get the job done more reliably. Which is intended, I'm sure, and it will get better as I learn (just a moment ago I had no idea how well they train against zoms), but it's not a melee game.

Also, nerfing cutting scaling would mean nerfing throwing weapon's scaling. Which is even more questionably viable, with only one lategame weapon (plasma bow) and no scaling or commendations beyond level 70.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2020, 11:14:42 am »
In all honesty, I wouldn't mind cutting resistance of most armors to be looked at. Even IRL, pretty common armors using tightly woven thinner types of aramid yarn (though not the popular kevlar) or ceramic plates are very resistant even against pretty heavy blades (in case of which you may get easily bruised or even get a rib broken with a very strong hit but that because the very force makes the weapon act like a blunt one -  the blade won't puncture or slash through the skin though).

1) Why the assumption that X-Com uses this specific material you mentioned? I would have no idea.
2) Armoured vests have high armour values and no special weakness to blades, which already is good enough.

As the game progresses and regular, common conventional firearms become kinda outdated (as they should be), similar should happen to already dated and primitive melee weaponry, especially when used against fully armored targets, be they enemy combatants or X-Com troopers.

"Should"? But why?
I would understand an addition of a special anti-melee armour. Oh wait, that's the Bio-Exo.

Disagree, irl melee is useless

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!
Sorry, can't comment further :P


Offline justaround

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2020, 12:04:14 pm »
1) Why the assumption that X-Com uses this specific material you mentioned? I would have no idea.
Because aramid yarns of various types are already basis of majority of available protective vests, though usually they're the popular kevlar. Since I actually pay researchers big bucks to research adequate protection and, especially early game, one has to be concerned more with melee-wielding hooligans, wild animals etc then it makes only sense that some protection against slashing and puncture attacks is the priority and with various common armors against such kinds of attacks readily available, it feels like those scientists went extra mile just to leave such critical weakness in.

I wouldn't want armors excel at all types of melee defence but some late-game superscience hermetical armored suits having issues with some old slashy boys makes it look really weird, though maybe it's an issue of general scaling of defence vs attacks of simple melee weaponry, especially as the latter seems not to progress much technologically, even in hands of factions reliant on them.
2) Armoured vests have high armour values and no special weakness to blades, which already is good enough.
Glad to hear one armor is decent about it, I just don't see why many other, especially the fancy sci-fi ones shouldn't do well against some blades.
"Should"? But why?
Consistency, mostly. And progression, ideally - after all, big part of the game, be it mod or vanilla, is escalation and progress toward the realm of sci-fi and that in turn due to recognition that contemporary, yet alone ancient and relatively primitive weapons simply don't cut it anymore (I swear, the pun wasn't intentional).
I would understand an addition of a special anti-melee armour. Oh wait, that's the Bio-Exo.
Yup, there are armors which aren't bad against such things. I just ask to have a look at other armors stats as well so none, especially of the actually armored, later game variety will feel weak against regular, bogstandard knives. And while I think of it, adding a mention or two to some armors which don't have such yet of how they do good against, say, plasma weaponry but are pretty brittle and so not good against low-surface kinetic weapons such as stabbing blades could be pretty nice flavor addition too.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!
Sorry, can't comment further :P
Come on, you know he probably meant open-field warfare against armored enemies :P
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 12:10:21 pm by justaround »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Black Lotus' Freakin' Ninjas
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2020, 12:39:56 pm »
Because aramid yarns of various types are already basis of majority of available protective vests, though usually they're the popular kevlar. Since I actually pay researchers big bucks to research adequate protection and, especially early game, one has to be concerned more with melee-wielding hooligans, wild animals etc then it makes only sense that some protection against slashing and puncture attacks is the priority and with various common armors against such kinds of attacks readily available, it feels like those scientists went extra mile just to leave such critical weakness in.

Hmm, this seems to be in line with the Bulletproof Coat, which is a later game armour.
But I understand you're thinking of something more, umm... rigid. As in, higher raw armour values.

I wouldn't want armors excel at all types of melee defence but some late-game superscience hermetical armored suits having issues with some old slashy boys makes it look really weird, though maybe it's an issue of general scaling of defence vs attacks of simple melee weaponry, especially as the latter seems not to progress much technologically, even in hands of factions reliant on them.Glad to hear one armor is decent about it, I just don't see why many other, especially the fancy sci-fi ones shouldn't do well against some blades.Consistency, mostly. And progression, ideally - after all, big part of the game, be it mod or vanilla, is escalation and progress toward the realm of sci-fi and that in turn due to recognition that contemporary, yet alone ancient and relatively primitive weapons simply don't cut it anymore (I swear, the pun wasn't intentional).Yup, there are armors which aren't bad against such things. I just ask to have a look at other armors stats as well so none, especially of the actually armored, later game variety will feel weak against regular, bogstandard knives. And while I think of it, adding a mention or two to some armors which don't have such yet of how they do good against, say, plasma weaponry but are pretty brittle and so not good against low-surface kinetic weapons such as stabbing blades could be pretty nice flavor addition too.Come on, you know he probably meant open-field warfare against armored enemies :P

Personal Armour! It only takes 70% melee damage, and is overall pretty solid. Not as much as the Tritanium Vest, but the latter is specifically geared towards being resistant to bullets.

If you have something else in mind, please elaborate.