OpenXcom Forum
Modding => Released Mods => The X-Com Files => Topic started by: sunkship203 on May 07, 2020, 09:18:59 pm
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You killed or captured every Black Lotus member on scene, but the mission doesn't end, so one of those damned ninjas may be hiding around...
BUT WHERE!?
You start making a cordon & search in hopes of getting contact to gun them down; suddenly, a scream, one agent has died.
They may not look lethal, but they are once you can't find them.
So... anyone knows an efficient method to deal with them once dissapeared? I usually barrage a suspected place with fire, to lure them out as the stealthy rats they are.
(https://www.newtopshows.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/beverly-hills-ninja-cover.png)
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Get in enclosed spaces with shotguns pointed at the door and they die on entrance.
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There has been a thread about this topic some time ago:
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0.html
Pretty much all of the advice in there should still apply.
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There has been a thread about this topic some time ago:
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,7603.0.html
Pretty much all of the advice in there should still apply.
Perfect! didn't saw this thread around, thank you very much!
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The main problem is that armor gives no cutting resistance, while it gives 70% kinetic damage modifier. You could bring an exosuit, which takes half damage from cutting. But probably mines/flame/drones are better as they said. Dogs could work too I suppose just due to speed and low value, but not ideal for HQ.
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I use a lot of smoke all the time, which helps a lot when ninjas come along, because they aggro very little and go in trickling one at a time.
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The main problem is that armor gives no cutting resistance, while it gives 70% kinetic damage modifier. You could bring an exosuit, which takes half damage from cutting. But probably mines/flame/drones are better as they said. Dogs could work too I suppose just due to speed and low value, but not ideal for HQ.
No matter what tactics you use, exosuit is the best armour against ninjas for a looong time. I would even say it is crucial. It usually means the difference between a one-hit kill and extended hospital time. You probably won't be able to outfit all your ground troops with it, before the first Black Lotus Hideouts show up. Exosuits are expensive and take long to build. Still absolutely worth it in my opinion. In very many early missions you face mostly cutting damage from critters, zombies and such. The other resistances are also pretty neat.
About Black Lotus HQ, don't worry. The terrain works in your favour. Narrow hallways, corners and lots of doors. Just use conventional tactics and mines. Camp close to doors and corners so as to nullify the ninjas' camo. Everything you can't cover enough gets mined. Most likely you will just stay in the elevators. Enemies will swarm you and you can mow them down by the dozens. After that it's just mopping up, which you should be able to do in a fairly controlled and safe manner.
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In all honesty, I wouldn't mind cutting resistance of most armors to be looked at. Even IRL, pretty common armors using tightly woven thinner types of aramid yarn (though not the popular kevlar) or ceramic plates are very resistant even against pretty heavy blades (in case of which you may get easily bruised or even get a rib broken with a very strong hit but that because the very force makes the weapon act like a blunt one - the blade won't puncture or slash through the skin though).
As the game progresses and regular, common conventional firearms become kinda outdated (as they should be), similar should happen to already dated and primitive melee weaponry, especially when used against fully armored targets, be they enemy combatants or X-Com troopers.
Could a quick balance pass be perhaps done on it, Solarius?
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Disagree, irl melee is useless, in-game it's already questionably viable for players. Just nerf stealth if needed.
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Disagree, irl melee is useless
While the game doesn't try to be realistic, you seem to be supporting my point. I wouldn't mind, as mentioned, regular melee becoming useless after some time against most armors. Though I also wouldn't mind some more sci-fi hardware being more common and available to some enemies (monomolecular blades, psionically-empowered melee weapons etc)
in-game it's already questionably viable for players.
Melee even late game can be quite powerful if you know how to use it and got proper equipment. Covering entrances and passage corners with melee units and/or dogs is at times so useful it seems nearly broken, if not for how much less effective it is when deployed in open field.
Just nerf stealth if needed.
I'd like to keep all black pajama Black Lotus troopers pretty stealthy. Maybe even add some stealth to other, regular faction's units. But I'd like also the stealth to be more affected by how many soldiers look in the direction of such ninja and from what distance. In passably well lit, straight corridor several troopers all looking down it someone should be able to spot even somewhat psionically gifted stealthy individual, especially when it starts throwing stuff at them.
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Disagree, irl melee is useless, in-game it's already questionably viable for players.
FYI, I have depopulated multiple UFOs early in the game by simply stabbing all the sectoids to death. Reaction fire becomes much less a problem if they can't aim properly. Don't fight them outside. Fight them inside and give them a hug when they come through the door.
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The tendency for doorcamping melees is for the enemy to get a shot off on them anyway (which is a CQB shot and the enemy dies immediately after, sure), and then the 3 enemies behind the now-dead enemy shoot through the doorway at a very exposed target. It's good, yes, but with the high training cost, hordes of enemies with automatic weapons, and high TUs needed to use melee effectively requiring risking an elite unit, one wonders whether a simple shotgun or smg rookie might get the job done more reliably. Which is intended, I'm sure, and it will get better as I learn (just a moment ago I had no idea how well they train against zoms), but it's not a melee game.
Also, nerfing cutting scaling would mean nerfing throwing weapon's scaling. Which is even more questionably viable, with only one lategame weapon (plasma bow) and no scaling or commendations beyond level 70.
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In all honesty, I wouldn't mind cutting resistance of most armors to be looked at. Even IRL, pretty common armors using tightly woven thinner types of aramid yarn (though not the popular kevlar) or ceramic plates are very resistant even against pretty heavy blades (in case of which you may get easily bruised or even get a rib broken with a very strong hit but that because the very force makes the weapon act like a blunt one - the blade won't puncture or slash through the skin though).
1) Why the assumption that X-Com uses this specific material you mentioned? I would have no idea.
2) Armoured vests have high armour values and no special weakness to blades, which already is good enough.
As the game progresses and regular, common conventional firearms become kinda outdated (as they should be), similar should happen to already dated and primitive melee weaponry, especially when used against fully armored targets, be they enemy combatants or X-Com troopers.
"Should"? But why?
I would understand an addition of a special anti-melee armour. Oh wait, that's the Bio-Exo.
Disagree, irl melee is useless
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!
Sorry, can't comment further :P
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1) Why the assumption that X-Com uses this specific material you mentioned? I would have no idea.
Because aramid yarns of various types are already basis of majority of available protective vests, though usually they're the popular kevlar. Since I actually pay researchers big bucks to research adequate protection and, especially early game, one has to be concerned more with melee-wielding hooligans, wild animals etc then it makes only sense that some protection against slashing and puncture attacks is the priority and with various common armors against such kinds of attacks readily available, it feels like those scientists went extra mile just to leave such critical weakness in.
I wouldn't want armors excel at all types of melee defence but some late-game superscience hermetical armored suits having issues with some old slashy boys makes it look really weird, though maybe it's an issue of general scaling of defence vs attacks of simple melee weaponry, especially as the latter seems not to progress much technologically, even in hands of factions reliant on them.
2) Armoured vests have high armour values and no special weakness to blades, which already is good enough.
Glad to hear one armor is decent about it, I just don't see why many other, especially the fancy sci-fi ones shouldn't do well against some blades.
"Should"? But why?
Consistency, mostly. And progression, ideally - after all, big part of the game, be it mod or vanilla, is escalation and progress toward the realm of sci-fi and that in turn due to recognition that contemporary, yet alone ancient and relatively primitive weapons simply don't cut it anymore (I swear, the pun wasn't intentional).
I would understand an addition of a special anti-melee armour. Oh wait, that's the Bio-Exo.
Yup, there are armors which aren't bad against such things. I just ask to have a look at other armors stats as well so none, especially of the actually armored, later game variety will feel weak against regular, bogstandard knives. And while I think of it, adding a mention or two to some armors which don't have such yet of how they do good against, say, plasma weaponry but are pretty brittle and so not good against low-surface kinetic weapons such as stabbing blades could be pretty nice flavor addition too.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!
Sorry, can't comment further :P
Come on, you know he probably meant open-field warfare against armored enemies :P
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Because aramid yarns of various types are already basis of majority of available protective vests, though usually they're the popular kevlar. Since I actually pay researchers big bucks to research adequate protection and, especially early game, one has to be concerned more with melee-wielding hooligans, wild animals etc then it makes only sense that some protection against slashing and puncture attacks is the priority and with various common armors against such kinds of attacks readily available, it feels like those scientists went extra mile just to leave such critical weakness in.
Hmm, this seems to be in line with the Bulletproof Coat, which is a later game armour.
But I understand you're thinking of something more, umm... rigid. As in, higher raw armour values.
I wouldn't want armors excel at all types of melee defence but some late-game superscience hermetical armored suits having issues with some old slashy boys makes it look really weird, though maybe it's an issue of general scaling of defence vs attacks of simple melee weaponry, especially as the latter seems not to progress much technologically, even in hands of factions reliant on them.Glad to hear one armor is decent about it, I just don't see why many other, especially the fancy sci-fi ones shouldn't do well against some blades.Consistency, mostly. And progression, ideally - after all, big part of the game, be it mod or vanilla, is escalation and progress toward the realm of sci-fi and that in turn due to recognition that contemporary, yet alone ancient and relatively primitive weapons simply don't cut it anymore (I swear, the pun wasn't intentional).Yup, there are armors which aren't bad against such things. I just ask to have a look at other armors stats as well so none, especially of the actually armored, later game variety will feel weak against regular, bogstandard knives. And while I think of it, adding a mention or two to some armors which don't have such yet of how they do good against, say, plasma weaponry but are pretty brittle and so not good against low-surface kinetic weapons such as stabbing blades could be pretty nice flavor addition too.Come on, you know he probably meant open-field warfare against armored enemies :P
Personal Armour! It only takes 70% melee damage, and is overall pretty solid. Not as much as the Tritanium Vest, but the latter is specifically geared towards being resistant to bullets.
If you have something else in mind, please elaborate.
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Sorry, can't comment further :P
For real? Pushing a guys gun away can be a good idea, sure, whatever, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about swords. Or, more leniently, combat knives. But combat knife vs pistol in close range, pistol wins most of the time, just the slightest bit of control and you're dead. I've heard a combat knife is more for cutting branches or bandages or smth than it is people. WW1 guns had bayonets, now everyone knows why they don't.
I wasn't trying to imply that swords shouldn't exist because it's unrealistic, if that's what you're saying. Quite the opposite. I was saying that it doesn't make that much sense to say that armor should make swords weak "because it's realistic" when swords are already very unrealistic. Realism has its place even in games about aliens and cults, but only when convenient.
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But combat knife vs pistol in close range, pistol wins most of the time, just the slightest bit of control and you're dead.
And who said so, some TV expert? Because police statistics say otherwise (assuming point blank range, of course). There are also military records, though less consistent.
This is partially why the CQC exists in the first place.
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Dunno why TV experts would try to make guns OP... excluding that one indiana jones scene, it would be very convenient for movies if melee was balanced. So they pretend it is, and they should pretend it is, because it makes better movies and games for it to actually be viable.
Mentioning statistics without specifically stating them is very similar to saying "just ask ____ if you don't believe me!" to the principle. He's probably not gonna do that, so you don't technically need to back it up, but it's not a very strong argument until you do. I would expect statistics show something like "half of homicides are melee weapons" but that doesn't really mean anything because melee weapons are more accessible and concealable which isn't relevant to our situation of non-concealed missions in this game where pistols are dirt-cheap.
I was just thinking that a knife needs actual power behind the stroke. Whereas a pistol can shoot many times in a single "stroke" of pointing. Pistol is slightly more grabbable by the enemy though, since you can't exactly grab a blade.
And again I'm not arguing against CQC, that is pushing an attacker's gun away. Of course that can be a viable tactic at melee range. I'm just arguing that after you do so, using a pistol is better than a knife.
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Dunno why TV experts would try to make guns OP...
There has been "expert" on TV that has literally made any claim physically possible at least once, and some that aren't physically possible. What I assume he meant by TV expert is someone who gets their knowledge from TV and not the real world.
This is NOT a link to a reliable source, however it is providing Solarius's point of view on the situation: https://offgridsurvival.com/close-quarter-attacks-gun-vs-knife/
And a different, more broken down point of view from another site:
Whoever was not caught off guard to start with!
Formally trained shooter against martial artists: Even!
Street wise shooter against martial artists: The Gun!
Formally trained shooter against someone who can use a knife properly: The knife!
Street wise shooter against someone who can use a knife properly: Depends on the strategies, training and luck!
The link to that site: https://www.theprepperjournal.com/2016/10/10/whats-the-best-close-quarters-weapon-knife-or-a-gun/
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And who said so, some TV expert? Because police statistics say otherwise (assuming point blank range, of course). There are also military records, though less consistent.
This is partially why the CQC exists in the first place.
If the police/military isn't entirely stupid, they wouldn't ever go into a point blank range, until absolutely forced.
"Don't bring a knife into a gun fight" isn't just a saying!
According to statistics you are much more likely to survive a jump from a plane if you're a woman.
That doesn't mean you're supposed to get a gender change... it means you're not supposed to jump out of a plane without a parachute!
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Nice post vadracas. I am conflicted now.
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If the police/military isn't entirely stupid, they wouldn't ever go into a point blank range, until absolutely forced.
"Don't bring a knife into a gun fight" isn't just a saying!
Exactly.
The point is not trying to subdue a person with a knife using a pistol from 1 m away.
According to statistics you are much more likely to survive a jump from a plane if you're a woman.
That doesn't mean you're supposed to get a gender change... it means you're not supposed to jump out of a plane without a parachute!
That's also true, and not something I was trying to prove... I only meant that saying "melee is always worse" is false.
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Nice post vadracas. I am conflicted now.
See the wikipedia article concerning the Tueller Drill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill) for example. Not sure what your definition of close quarters is, but apparently anything closer than 6 m / 20 ft will likely end up with you getting stabbed if you start holstered. At greater distances you're almost certain to get stabbed and incapacitated if you miss your first shot and your attacker doesn't stop/let up since you have to realign your gun with the target. Guns have an inherent disadvantage in close quarters, especially if the shooter isn't alerted to the threat.
Melee weapons don't have to be unholstered and aimed, for one thing, nor do they have to be cocked/charged. They also can't misfire if they are improperly maintained, and even an edged weapon that isn't overly sharp can kill or incapacitate an opponent if you apply enough force. Blunt weapons can break bones and cause internal bleeding even through body armor and there's a difference between stab and spike attacks. Stab-type attacks cut (think knives/bladed weapons), while spike-type attacks (think needles/pointed objects) work by slipping through fibers that make up clothing/protection. Stab-proof vests might not protect against spike attacks and vice-versa, though there are vests that protect against both types of attacks.
The best (and historically proven) protection against melee attacks is a shield and helmet - which also protect the wearer from missile-type attacks (sling, brick, other low velocity objects). As far as I can tell guns are pretty shitty at parrying or deflecting knives, let alone anything bigger/heavier (and even if you're successful they are likely to break/misfire and you're still at a disadvantage).
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Unholstering your pistol on reaction seems about as quick as unsheathing your knife on reaction. Same with aiming vs swinging. I suppose a gun has to be cocked and the safety turned off if you didn't do it already.
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Hmm, this seems to be in line with the Bulletproof Coat, which is a later game armour.
But I understand you're thinking of something more, umm... rigid. As in, higher raw armour values.
If you have something else in mind, please elaborate.
Alright, once the new version hits and I'll have some time to get into it for longer I'll take a look through each armor in particular and their stats and send over certain comparisons and observations in DM for you to consider, accept and/or reject them, so you will have something more than vague impressions to go by. Sounds alright?
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Alright, once the new version hits and I'll have some time to get into it for longer I'll take a look through each armor in particular and their stats and send over certain comparisons and observations in DM for you to consider, accept and/or reject them, so you will have something more than vague impressions to go by. Sounds alright?
Absolutely :)
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Its just me or Black Lotus Assassins have super-shy AI?
Its like they're scared of showing their faces while their buddies are getting cut down en masse. But once everyone is dead, unconscious or pannicking, they start getting all ninja and shit.
I know they are around the moment Bug Hunt mode starts showing me people next to flares who can't be seen... Even through they should be.
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Its just me or Black Lotus Assassins have super-shy AI?
Its like they're scared of showing their faces while their buddies are getting cut down en masse. But once everyone is dead, unconscious or pannicking, they start getting all ninja and shit.
I know they are around the moment Bug Hunt mode starts showing me people next to flares who can't be seen... Even through they should be.
I can't remember how exactly I did it, or even if it's really my success, but that's what I was aiming at, yes.
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I can't remember how exactly I did it, or even if it's really my success, but that's what I was aiming at, yes.
It's a "bug" with giving units weapons with a maximum range, and you asked that the fix have a switch to leave that behavior in by unit.
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It's a "bug" with giving units weapons with a maximum range, and you asked that the fix have a switch to leave that behavior in by unit.
I remember that, but I can't see anything special in this unit's definition. So I am at a loss.
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It's called "waitIfOutsideWeaponRange" on the unit - default false means fixing the bug.