Author Topic: Visual help space for modders.  (Read 956 times)

Offline Thermite

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Visual help space for modders.
« on: April 03, 2020, 01:24:04 am »
Basically, as I said here: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,8045.msg125186.html#msg125186
It would be nifty if there was a way to insert small symbols on weapon ufopaedia entries showing to which group a certain item is associated to. Let's say we have weapons that can't work above water, there would then be a crossed out "island" on the bottom of the ufopaedia entry. If it worked underwater there would be a diving suit helmet. If it could go to spacer, there would be a planet and so on. I don't know which one is better though, having all the "badges", so to speak, shown and the ones the item isn't a part of crossed out, or if we only show the ones which the item is a part of.

Online Meridian

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Re: Visual help space for modders.
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2020, 10:45:05 am »
There's already only tiny space (approx. 180x40 pixels) left for description... should I decrease it even more?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 10:48:23 am by Meridian »

Offline Thermite

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Re: Visual help space for modders.
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2020, 01:29:30 am »
There's already only tiny space (approx. 180x40 pixels) left for description... should I decrease it even more?
Maybe beside the weight or on the bottom of the weapon's picture?

Offline ohartenstein23

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Re: Visual help space for modders.
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2020, 01:52:17 am »
I don't think you realize just how few pixels are there - icons that small (less than 10x10, probably more like 5x5) would be really hard to make convey the idea of multiple item filters.

Offline Thermite

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Re: Visual help space for modders.
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2020, 02:12:58 am »
I don't think you realize just how few pixels are there - icons that small (less than 10x10, probably more like 5x5) would be really hard to make convey the idea of multiple item filters.
Fudge...
How about below the ammo types or while hovering somewhere?
It's just that it would help with recognizing the features of a weapon without having to look through the info tab.

Offline Finnik

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Re: Visual help space for modders.
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2020, 02:13:33 pm »
There are no hovering UI items in OXCE as a class. However, I was wondering, for example, in the form of a global option (to keep the original purity of the gaming experience), could this be an acceptable solution for developers? It could definitely make some elements more informative. I worked a bit with UI in OXCE, but I used the existing window classes, so I'm roughly aware of the scope of the work. It would be interesting to try to work on that, I like to create a friendly UX :)

Maybe not hovering, but clicking on a specific UI element could produce a small window next to the mouse position to show additional info. For example, clicking on the power number could reveal properties for damage alter. That is super important things to know, but they are often hidden deep inside stats for nerds, and you need to make several clicks to find it.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 02:24:36 pm by Finnik »

Online Meridian

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Re: Visual help space for modders.
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2020, 10:34:05 pm »
Just a quick reply.

New fancy GUI elements like hover tooltips or something are acceptable for me in general, if implemented nicely.

Using them is a bit problematic, because Android/iPhone/Touch users won't be able to use them... so they could be used only for non-critical cosmetic stuff.
But it's worth a try...

Offline Thermite

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Re: Visual help space for modders.
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2020, 01:38:51 am »
Just a quick reply.

New fancy GUI elements like hover tooltips or something are acceptable for me in general, if implemented nicely.

Using them is a bit problematic, because Android/iPhone/Touch users won't be able to use them... so they could be used only for non-critical cosmetic stuff.
But it's worth a try...

Glad to hear that my suggestion is being considered for improvements on the UI. I know XCom is quite an old game and, since then, we had many improvements on user interaction technology and research. I think some modifications could be quite helpful.

About mobile users: maybe make so that, when a position on the screen is tapped, the user's cursor is also moved, not only a click event is generated?

Offline MistarRed

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Re: Visual help space for modders.
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2020, 11:00:41 pm »
Isn't the standard mobile UI approach to generate a tooltip to tap and hold?  The player would have to know where to do that though for a tooltip vs another effect.

Offline Finnik

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Re: Visual help space for modders.
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2020, 05:06:57 pm »
I think if we talk about pop-ups, we should just talk about additional information, which is easier to get. At the very least - for information that is absolutely no other way to display to the player. For example, I really like the idea of showing the values of the damageAlter section in a small window that pops up by clicking on the power value in ufopedia. For example, you can put * next to the number of the power value to show the player that there is something behind it. Sometimes weapons in the mod are made in such a way that the damageAlter section fundamentally affects the final damage, and the value of power compared to this becomes even less important information. In addition, I'd also display a method for calculating damage and armor penetration and armor efficiency if they differ from the default values. From my experience in XCF, these parameters dramatically change the effectiveness of a weapon, and to find out that they are not set by default, you need to view all types of ammunition for a weapon via INFO.  Doing it for all types of weapons to see if it's not a fun activity for me. As far as I can see, many players have no idea about these properties at all, as their value for the game is not obvious to them (it is not vanilla and as far as I know there are no full descriptions to all of them). That's why they don't understand why guns are so different, although it doesn't come from the value of power alone.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Visual help space for modders.
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2020, 05:13:49 pm »
My opinion is that people want too much information in general :) But damageAlter is too important to ignore, this info must be communicated to the player. So I guess a small popup window would be good.

Online Meridian

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Re: Visual help space for modders.
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2020, 05:32:53 pm »
But damageAlter is too important to ignore, this info must be communicated to the player

There are 2 damageAlters... ranged and melee... and contain 36 attributes each.

That's 72 attributes to show in worst case... good luck putting that into a tooltip :)

Offline Finnik

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Re: Visual help space for modders.
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2020, 05:49:38 pm »
If the modder puts too long a description of ufopedia article, it will be cut, and it is fine to everyone for years. Probably we can add a scroll to a tooltip, and I saw good realizations of such UI elements. But come on. I think it's insane for a real mod that people play to use more than 10, well 15 additional properties. That could fit. Ok, maybe some handling with text resize. Let's be realistic. I can, for example, using Memmaker python tools or whatever other game designer tools to check how many entities could be in the mods like piratez or xcf, or twots, add, say, 5 to that value and it would be fine to me. I think such a tooltip can fit real people's needs. If it exceeded that reasonable value, well, dear modder, your weapon is lame, sorry, your player would have to go to the info to read full of its properties.

UPD:
I think in case we will have both meleeAlter and damageAlter on same item extremely rare and cutting it with asking the player to look for more details in INFO is fine. Also, a lot of properties have attached bool to define random. so, it would be good to merge such properties in one line in the tooltip. For example, `toHealth: 0.55` and `randomHealth: true` could be shown "To Health: 0.55; Random.", without showing "; Random" if `randomHealth: false`. So in the end entities count could be much less.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 06:17:26 pm by Finnik »

Online Meridian

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Re: Visual help space for modders.
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2020, 08:37:52 pm »
I'm not asking for a scrollbar on a tooltip, that's pervert.
Just saying that we have 320x200 pixels; and modders like to overdo everything...

meleeAlter may be rare in XCF, but it's not rare in Piratez for example.
OXCE is not made for XCF, it's made for everybody.

And if something looks ugly, I prefer not taking it at all over letting it be ugly.

Right now, we have vanilla pedia and we have stats for nerds... I understand you want to make something inbetween.
I wish you good luck (honestly!), but I reserve the right to not merge it if I don't like it. That's all.

Offline Thermite

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Re: Visual help space for modders.
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2020, 06:56:14 am »
I'm not asking for a scrollbar on a tooltip, that's pervert.

Why would it be perversion though?