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Author Topic: Minigun seems OP  (Read 1782 times)

Offline TheCurse

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Minigun seems OP
« on: August 26, 2019, 11:17:28 pm »
The last ingame half year i had access to Blackops miniguns (no alloy ammo yet) and gameplay has changed drastically.
Basically, give everyone who can almost carry it a minigun (if ~70 str a spare ammo pack) and just blast everything that comes across, with up to 3 salvos per turn, no matter how close or far.
This may probably change once the alien missions get more, but thats still 6 months out as far as i know.
So for any cult/creature mission a squad (5+) of non-rookies carrying miniguns just seems like the repetitive solution to all your problems for a very long time.
Given the variety of useful weapons, I´d propose a role change for the minigun so its not the best "all purpose gun" anymore...
Since its a minigun, making it weaker would be very weird, those things are meant to be powerful as f***.
But they´re heavy and cumbersome...
So what about fewer but more powerful salvos?
E.g. 15-20 shot each, but costs at least >50% TUs. It´d still be devastating against any target, but you could not take out too many distinct enemies per turn anymore without resorting to spray&pray.
Might even be worth it to have a short burst / long burst mode, with short burst 5 shots at current TU cost and long burst with 15/20 at double of current TU cost, for area fire.
Also considering to lower ammo capacity would be an option, what other full auto gun has 25 salvos per mag...

With current stats at least its cheap to take on any mission, since its fast and doesn't seem to require strategical adaption.

Offline Bobit

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Re: Minigun seems OP
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2019, 05:04:40 am »
How are your rookies carrying miniguns? I do remember them being powerful, I'm a little surprised a whole squad of them isn't a little dangerous though, as you have zero mobility for covering your flanks and taking down the boss enemies quickly. Can't really remember though, what are the stats? Acc/CrouchAcc/Shots/Damage/Weight/Range?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 05:06:53 am by Bobit »

Offline TheCurse

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Re: Minigun seems OP
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2019, 10:48:53 am »
Once they are halfway through with training (built 2 gyms) they can easily carry one.
I think its like 10/20%, 10 shots@35 dmg, ~50 weight, range covers everything from close to far, except across the whole map.
Don't need much mobility, just let them crouch around the vehicle and they sweep pretty anything in sight range, except when the main part is over let them advance a little and hunt strays...
Since a salvo is like 30% TUs they are not even that immobile.
(Thought about adding some snipers, but at the current state... why?)

Offline Bobit

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Re: Minigun seems OP
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2019, 05:35:02 pm »
Holy hell that's a lot of weight. Do you carry any armor/stims/grenades or extra clips? And IIRC they cost a bunch too. I've taken out entire bases with SMGs+shields, so I'm not too surprised there's another bumrush strategy out there, but damn I really want to know how you do this one.

Offline TheCurse

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Re: Minigun seems OP
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2019, 06:51:09 pm »
They do have armor (currently rolled out alloy vests, after armored vests), which gives a nice 2 more weight unused...
Basic setup:
Anyone > 45str -> minigun
45 - 68 -> gets some medi gels or napalm nades (though never used...)
68+ -> spare minigun ammo pack

No other items used.

Its really easy to level up rookies this way too, since its hard to miss with 30shots/turn...
And the 2 gyms are great at training the strength prequisite.
Thought about the SMG/shield strategy, but it seems too much work ;)
Of course enemy snipers may hit better over long distances, but its just 1-2 shots/turn, most enemies suck at even medium range.
Once they get over 100 acc (at least half have already) you even get +25% chance on targets far away.
Cost is not that much actually, you could add a 0 and it´d still be viable...

Offline Bobit

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Re: Minigun seems OP
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2019, 11:15:43 pm »
So basically you play overencumbered?

Offline TheCurse

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Re: Minigun seems OP
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2019, 12:21:20 am »
Hardly.
Only the ones that can almost carry a minigun or almost can carry minigun + spare ammo pack, overencumbered like 2-4weight at max, which are rare exceptions.
Have not noticed any downside, if its too much they might not shoot a 3rd time after turning or so...
(The ones too weak for minigun get magnum and lots of medi gel packs)

EDIT: actually could use light minigun too for weaker units... didn't bother yet, its just 25dmg/shot.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 01:28:23 am by TheCurse »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Minigun seems OP
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2019, 11:43:06 am »
Miniguns are heavily disputed. They were also rebalanced more times than any other weapons category.
Back when they were slightly worse, they were completely unattractive. Now they're sometimes considered OP, sometimes still useless.
They seem to be loved by "Nurgle-type players", who don't move much and rely on high numbers (of units but also, more directly, bullets fired) and ignored by everyone else.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 11:14:56 am by Solarius Scorch »

Offline krautbernd

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Re: Minigun seems OP
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2019, 12:32:36 pm »
Considering the amount of equipment in the game i'm not surprised that people are calling weapons OP that I never (or rarely) use during my playthroughs. I think a lot of this is down to individual preference and tactics.

Offline TheCurse

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Re: Minigun seems OP
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2019, 01:56:24 pm »
They seem to be loved by "Nurgle-type players", who don't move much and rely on high numbers (of units but also, more directly, bullets fired) and ignored by everyone else.
Heh, i could see myself in that...
Yeah, any less dmg or acc and they´d be completely useless.
But the ability to kill up to 3 targets per turn (plus collateral if someone is in the way) for each just 30% TU is pretty hardcore.
In comparison the HMGs do partially more dmg, highly more accurate, but one salvo takes like 90% TU...
That makes more sense to me in terms of balancing.
(Also, has anyone ever been able to release the trigger of a minigun fast enough that just 10 bullets are fired?  ;) )


EDIT: i do kinda miss ammo types for the heavies... like HE or INC... the autocannon has it too, but it has bigger bullets.
But a radius 1 (or 0? just 1 tile) would still be adequate i think.
Then again... minigun with HE/INC just might be a bit too OP, even if it looks awesome. HMG could do it. Except the 90% TU cost makes it really hard to turn before shooting.
Or maybe rubber bullets for stun.
Or... buckshot minigun ammo? totally not insane at all  ;D
Is buckshot ammo -> explosion at hit -> more buckshot flying around as shrapnel possible? for when you have a gunner with really bad aim...
(even if possible, not sure what the engine would say about that. or common sense. which ever screams louder...)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 06:52:37 pm by TheCurse »

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: Minigun seems OP
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2019, 11:18:48 am »
Considering the amount of equipment in the game i'm not surprised that people are calling weapons OP that I never (or rarely) use during my playthroughs. I think a lot of this is down to individual preference and tactics.

Exactly.

Heh, i could see myself in that...
Yeah, any less dmg or acc and they´d be completely useless.
But the ability to kill up to 3 targets per turn (plus collateral if someone is in the way) for each just 30% TU is pretty hardcore.

Yeah, I managed to do this... exactly once in my life. :P

In comparison the HMGs do partially more dmg, highly more accurate, but one salvo takes like 90% TU...
That makes more sense to me in terms of balancing.

The HMG is so anal to use that I think it's okay.

(Also, has anyone ever been able to release the trigger of a minigun fast enough that just 10 bullets are fired?  ;) )

This is a game abstraction, would you like to wait for 700 bullets to be animated? :P
Also, if it really would be 700 bullets, they would have to be weaker and not have the armour strip... Or in fact, completely new effects would be needed to simulate this bulletstorm.

Offline Hexhammer

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Re: Minigun seems OP
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2019, 11:58:59 am »
I do not know if the miniguns have changed a lot between FMP and Xcom Files as I' haven't played the latter yet.

First when I tried it I also thought that hey this thing is powerful... But it was clear it comes with a cost and I think the balance is great, minigun is totally cumbersome and lack of reaction shots also takes away from its usefulness, but it does exactly what its designed for. I keep a minigun behind or in the flank of my front line troops and it does amazing job with "supressive" fire cover. Also its good for cutting down foliage in jungle.

But over powered, I don't think so unless the player decides to overuse it.

Compare to having ten guys in the field and arm them all with blaster launchers and just wipe the whole map out? Overpowered much?  ;)

Offline Bobit

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Re: Minigun seems OP
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2019, 02:45:58 pm »
@Hexhammer

Unfortunately Xfiles has a much much higher TTK so "just stand still and shoot" strategies are overly dominant. Also the minigum appears waaaaay before the blaster (does the blaster appear at all?)
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 10:28:25 pm by Bobit »

Offline TheCurse

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Re: Minigun seems OP
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2019, 05:51:17 pm »
Yeah, I managed to do this... exactly once in my life. :P
about every 2nd turn (if there are +3 people visible)... then again, most of my guys have way above 100 acc already. and pretty much everyone has a minigun... XD

But over powered, I don't think so unless the player decides to overuse it.

Compare to having ten guys in the field and arm them all with blaster launchers and just wipe the whole map out? Overpowered much?  ;)
i get the point, but i think thats what actually makes the definition of OP... overuse should have a drawback countering it out, then its not OP.
for mass blasters thats probably destroying all equipment and bodies in the process, as well as massive ammo costs. oh, and civilians standing in the way...  :P
have not yet discovered any drawback for miniguns yet.

sure, its definately not "game destroying"-OP. far from it. just think it makes it way too easy...

Offline Hexhammer

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Re: Minigun seems OP
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2019, 05:42:42 pm »
I guess this boils down to the tactics used, either don't use miniguns or limit it to one or two troopers... Same might go for high explosives or rocket launchers. But miniguns are damn powerful, luckily we have a choice on which weapons to use or not use. Thank the gaming gods for the freedom we have.

I usually use only one or two miniguns/HMG's, just for this reason. But listen to me ramble, I haven't played Xcom files enough to say much about the balance issues.