OpenXcom Forum
Modding => Released Mods => The X-Com Files => Topic started by: TheCurse on August 26, 2019, 11:17:28 pm
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The last ingame half year i had access to Blackops miniguns (no alloy ammo yet) and gameplay has changed drastically.
Basically, give everyone who can almost carry it a minigun (if ~70 str a spare ammo pack) and just blast everything that comes across, with up to 3 salvos per turn, no matter how close or far.
This may probably change once the alien missions get more, but thats still 6 months out as far as i know.
So for any cult/creature mission a squad (5+) of non-rookies carrying miniguns just seems like the repetitive solution to all your problems for a very long time.
Given the variety of useful weapons, I´d propose a role change for the minigun so its not the best "all purpose gun" anymore...
Since its a minigun, making it weaker would be very weird, those things are meant to be powerful as f***.
But they´re heavy and cumbersome...
So what about fewer but more powerful salvos?
E.g. 15-20 shot each, but costs at least >50% TUs. It´d still be devastating against any target, but you could not take out too many distinct enemies per turn anymore without resorting to spray&pray.
Might even be worth it to have a short burst / long burst mode, with short burst 5 shots at current TU cost and long burst with 15/20 at double of current TU cost, for area fire.
Also considering to lower ammo capacity would be an option, what other full auto gun has 25 salvos per mag...
With current stats at least its cheap to take on any mission, since its fast and doesn't seem to require strategical adaption.
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How are your rookies carrying miniguns? I do remember them being powerful, I'm a little surprised a whole squad of them isn't a little dangerous though, as you have zero mobility for covering your flanks and taking down the boss enemies quickly. Can't really remember though, what are the stats? Acc/CrouchAcc/Shots/Damage/Weight/Range?
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Once they are halfway through with training (built 2 gyms) they can easily carry one.
I think its like 10/20%, 10 shots@35 dmg, ~50 weight, range covers everything from close to far, except across the whole map.
Don't need much mobility, just let them crouch around the vehicle and they sweep pretty anything in sight range, except when the main part is over let them advance a little and hunt strays...
Since a salvo is like 30% TUs they are not even that immobile.
(Thought about adding some snipers, but at the current state... why?)
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Holy hell that's a lot of weight. Do you carry any armor/stims/grenades or extra clips? And IIRC they cost a bunch too. I've taken out entire bases with SMGs+shields, so I'm not too surprised there's another bumrush strategy out there, but damn I really want to know how you do this one.
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They do have armor (currently rolled out alloy vests, after armored vests), which gives a nice 2 more weight unused...
Basic setup:
Anyone > 45str -> minigun
45 - 68 -> gets some medi gels or napalm nades (though never used...)
68+ -> spare minigun ammo pack
No other items used.
Its really easy to level up rookies this way too, since its hard to miss with 30shots/turn...
And the 2 gyms are great at training the strength prequisite.
Thought about the SMG/shield strategy, but it seems too much work ;)
Of course enemy snipers may hit better over long distances, but its just 1-2 shots/turn, most enemies suck at even medium range.
Once they get over 100 acc (at least half have already) you even get +25% chance on targets far away.
Cost is not that much actually, you could add a 0 and it´d still be viable...
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So basically you play overencumbered?
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Hardly.
Only the ones that can almost carry a minigun or almost can carry minigun + spare ammo pack, overencumbered like 2-4weight at max, which are rare exceptions.
Have not noticed any downside, if its too much they might not shoot a 3rd time after turning or so...
(The ones too weak for minigun get magnum and lots of medi gel packs)
EDIT: actually could use light minigun too for weaker units... didn't bother yet, its just 25dmg/shot.
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Miniguns are heavily disputed. They were also rebalanced more times than any other weapons category.
Back when they were slightly worse, they were completely unattractive. Now they're sometimes considered OP, sometimes still useless.
They seem to be loved by "Nurgle-type players", who don't move much and rely on high numbers (of units but also, more directly, bullets fired) and ignored by everyone else.
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Considering the amount of equipment in the game i'm not surprised that people are calling weapons OP that I never (or rarely) use during my playthroughs. I think a lot of this is down to individual preference and tactics.
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They seem to be loved by "Nurgle-type players", who don't move much and rely on high numbers (of units but also, more directly, bullets fired) and ignored by everyone else.
Heh, i could see myself in that...
Yeah, any less dmg or acc and they´d be completely useless.
But the ability to kill up to 3 targets per turn (plus collateral if someone is in the way) for each just 30% TU is pretty hardcore.
In comparison the HMGs do partially more dmg, highly more accurate, but one salvo takes like 90% TU...
That makes more sense to me in terms of balancing.
(Also, has anyone ever been able to release the trigger of a minigun fast enough that just 10 bullets are fired? ;) )
EDIT: i do kinda miss ammo types for the heavies... like HE or INC... the autocannon has it too, but it has bigger bullets.
But a radius 1 (or 0? just 1 tile) would still be adequate i think.
Then again... minigun with HE/INC just might be a bit too OP, even if it looks awesome. HMG could do it. Except the 90% TU cost makes it really hard to turn before shooting.
Or maybe rubber bullets for stun.
Or... buckshot minigun ammo? totally not insane at all ;D
Is buckshot ammo -> explosion at hit -> more buckshot flying around as shrapnel possible? for when you have a gunner with really bad aim...
(even if possible, not sure what the engine would say about that. or common sense. which ever screams louder...)
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Considering the amount of equipment in the game i'm not surprised that people are calling weapons OP that I never (or rarely) use during my playthroughs. I think a lot of this is down to individual preference and tactics.
Exactly.
Heh, i could see myself in that...
Yeah, any less dmg or acc and they´d be completely useless.
But the ability to kill up to 3 targets per turn (plus collateral if someone is in the way) for each just 30% TU is pretty hardcore.
Yeah, I managed to do this... exactly once in my life. :P
In comparison the HMGs do partially more dmg, highly more accurate, but one salvo takes like 90% TU...
That makes more sense to me in terms of balancing.
The HMG is so anal to use that I think it's okay.
(Also, has anyone ever been able to release the trigger of a minigun fast enough that just 10 bullets are fired? ;) )
This is a game abstraction, would you like to wait for 700 bullets to be animated? :P
Also, if it really would be 700 bullets, they would have to be weaker and not have the armour strip... Or in fact, completely new effects would be needed to simulate this bulletstorm.
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I do not know if the miniguns have changed a lot between FMP and Xcom Files as I' haven't played the latter yet.
First when I tried it I also thought that hey this thing is powerful... But it was clear it comes with a cost and I think the balance is great, minigun is totally cumbersome and lack of reaction shots also takes away from its usefulness, but it does exactly what its designed for. I keep a minigun behind or in the flank of my front line troops and it does amazing job with "supressive" fire cover. Also its good for cutting down foliage in jungle.
But over powered, I don't think so unless the player decides to overuse it.
Compare to having ten guys in the field and arm them all with blaster launchers and just wipe the whole map out? Overpowered much? ;)
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@Hexhammer
Unfortunately Xfiles has a much much higher TTK so "just stand still and shoot" strategies are overly dominant. Also the minigum appears waaaaay before the blaster (does the blaster appear at all?)
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Yeah, I managed to do this... exactly once in my life. :P
about every 2nd turn (if there are +3 people visible)... then again, most of my guys have way above 100 acc already. and pretty much everyone has a minigun... XD
But over powered, I don't think so unless the player decides to overuse it.
Compare to having ten guys in the field and arm them all with blaster launchers and just wipe the whole map out? Overpowered much? ;)
i get the point, but i think thats what actually makes the definition of OP... overuse should have a drawback countering it out, then its not OP.
for mass blasters thats probably destroying all equipment and bodies in the process, as well as massive ammo costs. oh, and civilians standing in the way... :P
have not yet discovered any drawback for miniguns yet.
sure, its definately not "game destroying"-OP. far from it. just think it makes it way too easy...
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I guess this boils down to the tactics used, either don't use miniguns or limit it to one or two troopers... Same might go for high explosives or rocket launchers. But miniguns are damn powerful, luckily we have a choice on which weapons to use or not use. Thank the gaming gods for the freedom we have.
I usually use only one or two miniguns/HMG's, just for this reason. But listen to me ramble, I haven't played Xcom files enough to say much about the balance issues.
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Funny that people are comparing the Heavy Machine Gun to the minigun, because the weapons fit such radically different roles for me. The minigun was for annihilating lightly armored hordes. I went with the tank mounted ones and they could rack up impressive kill counts against cultists and the like, especially the cult of the apoc with their hordes of random recruits.
The HMG on the other hand is a sniper rifle.
No really, that's the primary roll it fills. Think about it. You don't really want to move your sniper around every turn, you want them in a good position and let other spot for them. The problem with the regular sniper rifles is that often you'd hit and it would seemly do no damage. With the HMG that's never a problem. Further it has the power to tear through walls, which is a huge advantage over other sniper rifles. The fact that it can take down heavy enemies, has some odd firing options, and has a large clip size, is all just bonus. The main drawback, the weight, is a non-issue. By the time a soldier gets an accuracy stat high enough for sniping they'll have 70 strength, and being in the back they don't need to carry med kits or grenades anyway.
I found that, weirdly, ninja stars were the best secondary weapon. Light weight, and gave them an attack option when moving. Surprisingly effective too if you have the throw stat high.
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i think they´re comparable in that role, with the minigun more versatile.
what sniper rifles lack is the ability to kill 2-3 enemies per turn, due high TU cost.
HMG will definately kill a target, but you only get one shot per turn...
thats why i prefer minigun over it, even though its a lot less accurate.
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I 100% agree with Hadriex' analysis.
Also I wonder if sniper rifles shouldn't have better snapshots...
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30% TU snap shot would be pretty cool
i take it wall penetrating shots are not possible...
IMO the main draw back of the HMG is the 90% TU shot, basically you can't even turn or kneel that turn.
as for other sniper rifles i agree, the dmg output is mediocre. (dunno plasma sniper, never had it researched yet)
Some have a nice boost formula, but only pays off for acc 100+.
Sadly there seems to be no alloy ammo for most.
What about HEIAP/Raufoss ammo though? 8)
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I 100% agree with Hadriex' analysis.
Also I wonder if sniper rifles shouldn't have better snapshots...
.. - just should have has(?)
mali by mít..
btw., besides, now, just now i got such 1idea: - about kinds of fire, && kind of ..guns (weapon) -
i thinking, overall in whole ufo-x-com core, /engines, there should be those mode, kind of firing, AND kind of weapon divided, and mngemented approximately such, according this table :
--> and, there, in ufo-x-com_core -engines, there should be created (if even possible doable) (at minimal, at least) TWO DIFFERENT .. (streams, handlers, for firing´s functions..) KIND, type of firing :
(if doable)
snipers, all "sniper-genre guns, all nimrod, jaeger rifles, etc ==: very accurate *MODE of FIRING, -- fire at 1point, just *Sniper mode Firing"
and for all types of miniguns, gatlings, GAU-xx, machineguns too, etc ==: *mass -mode firing, mass-firing
..and also, acurrancy, and all concerning parameters - counting now separately, and extra, for this category of firing, - so, extra accurancies, (and all others relevant parameters) for point, Sniper Firing,
..and also, second line, anothers extra set of parameters for this *mass -firing mode"..
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I 100% agree with Hadriex' analysis.
Also I wonder if sniper rifles shouldn't have better snapshots...
I think the minigun itself actually holds a potential solution here; kneel bonus multiplier (at least if it does what I think it does).
Reduce the TU cost and base accuracy of aim/snap modes for snipers, and give them a high(er) kneel bonus multiplier. Might be worth experimenting with?