Got a few questions about UFO Defense.

[Hobbes]

5.) Vision & smoke interaction, how does it work? i know on a "feel basis" that smoke limits your vision range but im unclear about by how many squares and does it stay the same each turn?

https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Smoke_Grenade

[NKF]

Oh and last question: Incendiary ammo
This is the only weapon/ammo type i've yet to really "connect" with (outside of the starting pistols).

*Ahem*

I've for the most part been viewing these forums passively as a lurker, but I had this sudden irrational need to sign up.

The pistol and basic rifle are complementary weapons. Of the two, the basic rifle is hands down the better damage dealer at close range due to the auto shot. The pistol on the other hand is the superior snapshot weapon. It is the fastest snapshot weapon in the game and is just as accurate. Damage wise they are not that different. Both are effective against the enemies they are effective against (sectoids, floaters, snakemen) and ineffective against enemies they aren't (pretty much everything else ).

The short of it is: if you like to use snapshots (and by extension reaction shots), the pistol's king. The rifle for auto.

Yes I know I'm promoting something that gets ditched the minute the laser pistol is researched a few days in. To its credit it does remain a fantastic reaction training weapon throughout the entire game.

[ohartenstein23]

On incendiary ammo: try AC-I on reapers and cyberdiscs too close for large rockets or high explosives. The other two incendiary ammo types aren't worthwhile.

[7Saturn]

The pistol and basic rifle are complementary weapons. Of the two, the basic rifle is hands down the better damage dealer at close range due to the auto shot. The pistol on the other hand is the superior snapshot weapon. It is the fastest snapshot weapon in the game and is just as accurate. Damage wise they are not that different. Both are effective against the enemies they are effective against (sectoids, floaters, snakemen) and ineffective against enemies they aren't (pretty much everything else ).

The short of it is: if you like to use snapshots (and by extension reaction shots), the pistol's king. The rifle for auto.

Well, that depends on how your playstyle and situation is. You can do everything with the rifle (I know, I've played that way a long time) in early game, because it has a good chance of hitting a target (saves ammo and reaction of enemies). But entering a large scout with pistols can prove to be far more effective, especially against the early opponents Sectoids and Floaters. However using Scout & Snipe tactics on the battle field will most likely not work well with pistols. ;-) Every weapon has its use, but I also tend to play a bit more conservative: Rifles & Pistols (see above), bit later only laser rifles. I also went on playing with them trough the entire game on, but I prefer Plasma Pistol and Plasma Sniper Rifle complementing each other. On CQC Plasma Caster can be also fun. But the latter two are mod weapons...

[Hobbes]

I've for the most part been viewing these forums passively as a lurker, but I had this sudden irrational need to sign up.

Welcome to the forums NKF

(he's one of the biggest XCom vets still out there)

[NKF]

However using Scout & Snipe tactics on the battle field will most likely not work well with pistols. ;-)

Heh, if memory serves, the ability to snipe all the way across the map with the different pistols in the vanilla game was one of the main reasons for the introduction of the popular Extender ranged based accuracy mod.

That said, even with the limited effective range, they still have quite a respectable range that the sniper/scout strategy is still viable. The shooters just have to be a bit closer to the action and maybe employ a smokescreen for added concealment.  +1 excuse to use smoke grenades.

[7Saturn]

Well, I always found auto- and snap shots with any weapon to be too dangerous, if you had to snipe from behind your own scout.

[ivandogovich]

Heh, if memory serves, the ability to snipe all the way across the map with the different pistols in the vanilla game was one of the main reasons for the introduction of the popular Extender ranged based accuracy mod.

Welcome NKF!!   

I wanted to chime in on your comments about the basic pistol.  A few years back I did a Youtube Lets Play series called "OpenXcom: Up Close and Personal."  The gimmick was that long guns weren't allowed.  Pistols, Grenades, and Melee only.  So I used the heck out of the vanilla pistol.  Fast Aimed Shots across the map using scout and snipe tactics were one of the main staples of the campaign.  Mutons were the only reason to migrate away from the pistols, as they were almost completely ineffective.  But ever since then, I've always maintained a healthy respect and admiration for the humble pistol, and that campaign, I think, made me a better player by learning to play within those limitations.

[Dybdal]

Pistols vs Rifles (just to ensure i've understood this correctly)

> 21+ squares away: Pistols (aimed & snap shot)
> 6~7-20 squares away: Rifles (aimed shot) Pistol (snap shot)
> 1-6~7 squares away: Rifles (auto shot) Pistol (snap shot)

21+ squares away:
reaction fire isnt a factor so the higher TU per shot efficiency of Pistols will win out

6~7-20 squares away:
reaction fire is a factor so Rifles with aimed shot yields a higher chance (if you have one shot that HAS to hit) and Pistols will drain significantly less TUs per snap shot meaning reaction fire is less likely to happen.

1-6~7 squares away:
Rilfes with auto (basicly used as a psudo shotgun) *you might be able to use a Pistol more effectly in close range (TU wise) if you are willing to take the bet that a single snapshot will kill your target.
but probability math should favor the Rifle in this case (its more likely the target will survive a single snapshot than die if you take into account the variable of missing the target aswell as low rolling your hit shot)

Did i understand the conversation correctly?

My thoughts:
I think i see the potential of the pistol as an open-space scouting tool in the early game. (i think i wrote it off to soon, caused by the lack of an auto feature, will test it out in my next playthough)
When i deployed in the early game it was with: Tank -> 2x high reaction scouts (rifles) -> 2x high fire acc snipers (HC-HE) -> 2x Large Rockets -> 4x Utility (Rifles) [i think im going to try ditching the rilfes on my two high reaction scouts next time and see how that feels]

My real issue though is this: Its not just Rifles vs Pistols. Its Rifles vs Pistols vs HEs/Grenades
Its all about managing risks & weighing the potential of defensive vs offensive useage of your reaction stat to manipulate reaction fire into your favor.

In the early game your weapons isnt favored in eighter damage or accuracy, thus taking mid range snap shot exchanges or using reactions in a defensive mannor isnt in your favor
Offensive useage of reactions to get into a better position i find to be the way to go and then it comes down to taking the highest % chance action to limit the risk of incomming reaction fire.

Rifle auto shot: 35% TU and yields three shots before the enemy can return fire.
Pistol snap shot: 18% TU and yeilds one shot before the enemy can return fire. (36% for two shots seems more likely if you factor in the chance of a low roll & chance to miss the target)
HE: grenade relay costs 8+25% TU (will allways be lower than both Rifle auto shot & two pistol snap shots) with zero chance of the subject surviving the hit.

I find it tough to justify the Pistol on paper but im down to test it out in full.
Good stuff all around.

[7Saturn]

As mentioned before, the pistol gets very powerfull when reaction triggering is considered. Simply put: Where you set one, maybe two reaction shots with the rifle, you can blast around four times with 100 % TUs, as it only takes 18% TUs. And one thing hasn't even been mentioned: It is not too unlikely, that you actually need more than one shot to down the opponent. That can make rifles less of a preferred weapon, especially in CQC. Most strongly, when the target is so close that you can simply run over and make it a sieve by the time it might react.

[Dybdal]

As mentioned before, the pistol gets very powerfull when reaction triggering is considered. Simply put: Where you set one, maybe two reaction shots with the rifle, you can blast around four times with 100 % TUs, as it only takes 18% TUs. And one thing hasn't even been mentioned: It is not too unlikely, that you actually need more than one shot to down the opponent. That can make rifles less of a preferred weapon, especially in CQC. Most strongly, when the target is so close that you can simply run over and make it a sieve by the time it might react.

I dont quite understand your logic of pistol vs rifle at close range.
If your talking probability math, then within 6~7 squares (the expected distances you will find in houses and small scouts in the early game) Auto Shot Rifle surely wins out vs the Pistol Snap Shot.
You don't have access to a mind probe, so you dont know two key variables: 1.) the enemys remaining TUs 2.) its reaction stat
Say it hasnt moved and has around 60 reaction, i'll take the Rifle Auto Shot anyday of the week. Any action of 10+TU's would cause reaction fire by the sectoid in this instance and if thats the case i'll take the three shots with lower % chance to hit, than 1 snap shot at 50% with a chance of leaving the sectoid alive.
I cant see the merit for the Pistol in close quarters (if you disregard its ability to nail a sectoid with a single snap shot, leaving you ample chances to move to cover) but i can def see its merits on the open field.
And the difference between 3 TU's (the difference between having a grenade in hand and having it in your shoulder slot) just isnt enough to merit the Pistol in that regard.

[7Saturn]

Well, as I said: when it comes to reaction fire triggering. That's where the pistol is strong. Especially considering the lack of information about the TUs and Reaction of the enemy. The spread is less of a problem and the reaction triggering is definitely in your favor. Or another way put: You stand in front of the door of a large scout, three men. Run in, take 2-3 shots, run out. you simply can't do that as easily with rifle snap. OK, that's where auto is strong. But only once. After the first salvo, you are usually out of luck, especially if the guys missed and have to get out of there, before it's the aliens turn. Running out is usually out of the question then.  With pistols you might even set a fourth and fifth shot, before there is a chance of retaliation by reaction fire. Do that with three men, all of them getting in 2 fields, do the job and get the hell out of there. In my experience, retreating again works not as well with rifles.

[The Reaver of Darkness]

I find you can do great just abandoning pistols altogether and using rifles. You use laser pistols until you get laser rifles, and don't even research plasma pistols but go straight to heavy plasmas. There are some cases where a pistol can be handy but most of the time auto shots are king at just about any range so there's little reason to ever use pistols. One thing is for sure: pistols don't work in all cases but rifles do.

Some mods aim to fix this by buffing pistols which I think is great. I buffed pistols in my mod and I've seen others that do this as well. But as others have said here, they can still be useful at times un-modded. Probably the most popular use of the original pistol is reaction fire training: you get a tough alien such as a muton or ethereal to drop their weapon, then surround them with troops using pistols. End turn. When the alien moves, your soldiers shoot them with pistols. They can get up to 5 snap shots in reaction fire per turn. This will raise their accuracy and reactions attributes, and that's the two biggest focus attributes toward making super soldiers. Everything else is either unimportant or rises automatically by collecting kills.

[NKF]

By the way I'm not really trying to discredit the basic rifle as it's an okay all-rounder. It's a good device to contrast the pistol against due to the shared similarities between the two weapons.

And the difference between 3 TU's (the difference between having a grenade in hand and having it in your shoulder slot) just isnt enough to merit the Pistol in that regard.

True, a 3TU saving isn't really a strong justification for the pistol. But assuming you have an extra TU or two left over, that's enough to kneel or walk another tile!

Joking aside, the pistol's one handed grip is a primarily a convenience feature that means you do not suffer the accuracy penalty when holding something in the other hand. So you can have something else ready all the time and not have to stow it away and pull it back out again in between shots.

I wanted to chime in on your comments about the basic pistol.  A few years back I did a Youtube Lets Play series called "OpenXcom: Up Close and Personal."  The gimmick was that long guns weren't allowed.  Pistols, Grenades, and Melee only.  So I used the heck out of the vanilla pistol.  Fast Aimed Shots across the map using scout and snipe tactics were one of the main staples of the campaign.  Mutons were the only reason to migrate away from the pistols, as they were almost completely ineffective.  But ever since then, I've always maintained a healthy respect and admiration for the humble pistol, and that campaign, I think, made me a better player by learning to play within those limitations.

I gained my respect for the pistol way back in the day from one of those classic scenarios where you think you are at the point of defeat only to have the survivors pull off a miracle. In this case I sent a squad to attack a Floater base. They got utterly destroyed. The only person left standing was carrying a pistol and a handful of grenades. The mission was an outright loss at that point so I decided to keep playing to see how the soldier would get killed.

I don't remember the outcome, but the number of casualties on the alien side after the battle left me wondering what the heck just happened. There's more to it that happened afterwards, but that was the seed that set me down the path to try and understand why the weakest weapon in the game was performing far better than expected.

[7Saturn]

Well, for one thing: Your rate of triggering reaction fire is smaller. More likely to survive... =)