OpenXcom Forum

OpenXcom => Offtopic => Topic started by: Dybdal on August 30, 2017, 11:14:22 pm

Title: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on August 30, 2017, 11:14:22 pm
Hey everyone.

Never really got into XCom until the 2012 release (put roughly 500 hours into it) and finally decided to try my hand at the original.
I've spent roughly a week trying to learn the game organicly by replaying the first two-three months then restarting the game and experimenting abit again.
I've learned quite abit and formed a general idea of how to be successful in both the tactical and strategical element of the game but there are some areas that ive been unable to gleem yet.

1.) Does weight have any bearing on TU(s) when not over the soldier weight limit? aka, can a soldier with a pistol move further than say someone with a rifle?

2.) About corpses, do they serve any purposs in the game? in 2012 they both serve as research and currency for item manufactoring but in UFO Defense, it seems to me as they only serve to fil out my ingame UFOpeadia when i research them (with fluff information) and dont contribute to my tech-tree or have any value as a currency!

3.) About the Stun Rod/Stun Bomb, how do they work? am i correct in making the asumption that stun rods/bombs can do from 0 to max stun damage? by a background dice roll just as weapons fire?

4.) About interrogations, am i correct in making the asumption that interrogations only serve as a means to progress the story (any alien -> leader -> commander -> end of game mission) and all the other interrogations only serve to fill out your UFOpeadia with fluff information?

5.) What determins if a UFO is destroyed or crash lands when enganged by XCOM? fx will you need Stingray's the entire game to ensure you do not oblitarate small UFO's with higher firepower? anywhere to read up on what aircraft weapon works best on what type of UFO? and on the notion of UFO's, how long can you stay on Avalanche missles? how many aircrafts do you need to deal with fx Medium & Large Scouts? and is it even possible to down them with Avalanche missles?

6.) Extra bases? when do you normaly go for them? im having a hard time figuring out when to start setting up my next base, is there a good rule of thumb on this?

phew.. well hopefully someone has some time to provide some clarity, wickedly addicting game.. gonna go shoot down some aliens and experiment with the motion scanner & proximity grenade today.
Learning is AWSOME.. Thanks.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: ohartenstein23 on August 30, 2017, 11:33:09 pm
snip

Hi Dybdal, welcome to the forums!  Before answering your questions, I'm linking the ufopedia.org page for UFO Defense (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/XCOM), most everything you could ever want to know about the game is contained there.  As for your questions:
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: ivandogovich on August 31, 2017, 12:00:59 am
Heh: one tip on the proximity grenade:  Toss it on tile away from the door

D|_|X

Where D is the door, _ is empty tile, and X is proximity grenade. 
The reason is that an enemy approaching behind the door will trigger it if its right at the door, but the door will be closed when it goes off, and the enemy takes no damage.  When you deploy it as suggested, they get blasted when they step out of the craft.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: 7Saturn on August 31, 2017, 12:02:23 am
In addition:
2. Don't forget, that you get points for everything you did research successfully. It's not a big sum for corpses, but still: it contributes to the monthly points you collect.
4. They do serve an important role, but when you play the game further than just the first three months, you will find out what that means. ;-) There are researchable things that are purely story telling but others (incl. some aliens) are extremely valuable.
5. I like Avalanches best in early game. ;-) Hint: There are technical specifications about every UFO type there is in the game. You can find out about that information from reliable ingame(!) sources. Of course you can always look at the ufopaedia website. There's pretty much everything about the game, including the finer points of the battlescape and other game mechanics. But I think, it takes the kick out of the game for a first-time player. Just do your research, play around with the things you gather over ingame time. You will find, that the game offers plenty of variety on how to play it and what you want to concentrate on. Once you have played it through, you will probably find a much more efficient approach. But as I already said: I think it'd take the fun out of the game, if you already knew about all the important twists and tricks from the beginning.
6. Thumb rule: whenever you have money left, expand your bases. That means building new ones as well as building new facilities on existing bases. It takes time to get them useful, as every base facility needs time for building it. So the sooner you start, the better. That's more a question of available money... As ohartenstein23 says: radar coverage is very important. You might end up with a lot of movement just outside the one radar and miss a lot of UFOs with valuable items. Just don't place them to near to each other. Take the large radar as a base for comparison and try to cover all the land masses. That should do the trick in general. Just one thought about the layout of new bases: The layout has tactical aspects, too... Think about the possible ways one might enter the base and accordingly, how to defend it easier. (Am I already telling too much here? I don't know.)
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on August 31, 2017, 01:21:06 am
Thanks for the replys. Your all champions in my book.

Reason im not going too deep into the game yet, is just one of my quirks of learning a game like UFO Defense.. no real good reason for it, i just enjoy experimenting without resorting to massive abuse of loading saves.

ivandogovich, yeah i figured out how the proximity grenade works after 3~4 UFO's worth of frustration, decided the best way of trying to learn how it works around doors was using my own men as test subjects, alot of good men died in the name of science that day.

7Saturn, i allready know about the interrogation path needed to end the game (and unlock the psiLab) one of my friends shared that valuable tidbid before i started with UFO Defense.
And i found out the hard way about base layout.. first time playing the game and i had a base invasion at the end of january.. being absolutly graped from three sides by cyberdiscs was a ...  shall we say learning experience and decided to read up on the subject after an embarrasing end to my first campaign. Lesson learned in pixelated blood.. all in the name of science.

Oh on that note, someone prob knows someone who's done a vanilla (un-modded) playthough of UFO Defense? without any constraints.. (such as building their base in hawaii or one of the two poles) would be cool to watch the first few months in a week or two to see how well (or more likely poorly) ive learned them.
Anywho.. thanks. Time for bed.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on August 31, 2017, 10:16:27 pm
So.. had another session after work and learned a bunch yet again.
motion scanners are extremly useful and medium scouts with roaming cyberdiscs inside are interresting to deal with without high explosives, the limited amount of space makes exploding discs extremly painful

Two quick questions, after todays session.
1.) Does gear from your dead soldiers get recovered after a mission is successful? or is it permanently lost?
2.) Do thrown explosives stack? lets say i throw two HEs/Grenades primed with 0 on the same tile or adjacent to each other, will both explosions go off when the round ends? or will the first one destroy the second one before it gets to do any damage?

As allways thanks a MILLION for openxcom and your helpful replys :D
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Hobbes on August 31, 2017, 10:35:18 pm
Two quick questions, after todays session.
1.) Does gear from your dead soldiers get recovered after a mission is successful? or is it permanently lost?

If you kill all the aliens, all the items present on the battlescape will be recovered. Otherwise, if you evac, only items present on the craft's floor or the soldiers embarked will be recovered. If all your units are killed, you lose the craft and all items you brought to battle.

Quote
2.) Do thrown explosives stack? lets say i throw two HEs/Grenades primed with 0 on the same tile or adjacent to each other, will both explosions go off when the round ends? or will the first one destroy the second one before it gets to do any damage?

No. The first grenade will explode and remove any objects that can't withstand the explosive power and this means any additional grenades
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: 7Saturn on September 01, 2017, 12:14:23 am
In combination: Of course your items of any fallen soldier may disappear, too, when the area with your soldiers corpse is affected by an explosion. Most likely scenario with that result: One of your guys holds an active grenade and is killed. He drops the active grenade, which in turn destroys all the gear he carried with him, too.

Or one annoying thing, that does happen, when you are not careful enough (or tend to play a certain style in some situations): You don't have any soldiers left at your skyranger (or other starting positions...). So you feel free to blast any alien that stand's there (or maybe it happens by reaction fire of a HWP). The explosion obliterates the items you left there, too. Meaning you will have to buy or produce them again. Nice job... :-/
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Countdown on September 01, 2017, 08:43:51 am
Heh: one tip on the proximity grenade:  Toss it on tile away from the door

D|_|X

Where D is the door, _ is empty tile, and X is proximity grenade. 
The reason is that an enemy approaching behind the door will trigger it if its right at the door, but the door will be closed when it goes off, and the enemy takes no damage.  When you deploy it as suggested, they get blasted when they step out of the craft.

Really? I never knew this. Was this "issue" fixed in TFTD? I have recently successfully used proximity grenades right in front of the alien door ... but maybe that was because it was a double door?

D|X
D|A

Where D is the door, X is the proximity grenade, and A is the dead alien after it stepped out.

Of course you can always look at the ufopaedia website. There's pretty much everything about the game, including the finer points of the battlescape and other game mechanics. But I think, it takes the kick out of the game for a first-time player. Just do your research, play around with the things you gather over ingame time. You will find, that the game offers plenty of variety on how to play it and what you want to concentrate on. Once you have played it through, you will probably find a much more efficient approach. But as I already said: I think it'd take the fun out of the game, if you already knew about all the important twists and tricks from the beginning.

I agree with this. My first campaign was probably the most fun because I just didn't know everything and it was exciting/scary when you encountered new aliens and challenges. I still remember the first time I shot a Cyberdisc standing right next to me, not realizing I was going to blow myself up. It was pretty funny.

2.) Do thrown explosives stack? lets say i throw two HEs/Grenades primed with 0 on the same tile or adjacent to each other, will both explosions go off when the round ends? or will the first one destroy the second one before it gets to do any damage?

As Hobbes said, they don't stack, but in my opinion, they should stack. In Terror from the Deep, this issue was fixed by giving grenades enough armor to withstand their own explosions so you could stack them. I think you should be able to because a) it's more realistic (2 grenades make a bigger explosion than 1) and b) some enemies take more than one explosive to take down, so if you can't use more than 1 at a time that's pretty unfair.

The way I get around this is with a mod that gives the grenades in UFO more armor (like they do in TFTD). It's a very simple mod and doesn't affect anything else about the gameplay (other than grenades will survive explosions where other items will not). If you are interested I can post the mod here for you.

Or one annoying thing, that does happen, when you are not careful enough (or tend to play a certain style in some situations): You don't have any soldiers left at your skyranger (or other starting positions...). So you feel free to blast any alien that stand's there (or maybe it happens by reaction fire of a HWP). The explosion obliterates the items you left there, too. Meaning you will have to buy or produce them again. Nice job... :-/

Yeah, I made this mistake my first campaign. Killed a Cyberdisc near the Skyranger and lost EVERYTHING because I used to bring EVERYTHING I owned on every mission. After that I started only bringing what I would need for that mission. More time consuming, but mitigates the losses if I get blown up or even lose the whole mission.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on September 01, 2017, 03:31:58 pm
Thanks for all your replys again. Hobbes, 7Saturn & Countdown.

I am taking great care to learn the game on my own as much as possible Countdown.
Without reading on UFOpeadia about anything i havnt spent alot of time experimenting with my self first.

And the questions im asking here, i hope reflects that. I've spent quite abit of time experimenting (with the limited amount of time i have available after work) before asking here (and reading on UFOpeadia.org)

Its been a super fun experience so far and i feel pretty well rounded at this point.
Getting off work next week, so the plan is to experiment with shorter games until then and then playthough the entire game in a mater of a week.
So far i've only faced: Sectoids, Floaters, Reapers & Cyberdiscs.. had one terrormission spawn cysalids in the 3rd month (i believe so atleast, decided against playing further when i heared new sounds in the fog)

edit: Another question.. mod related this time.
Yesterday i had an issue where i accepted a mission, went into the inventory/deployment screen and then got interuppted by someone at my door.
When i came back, i had completly forgotten if it was a day or night mission and "hoped" it was a day mission (it wasnt) safe to say it didnt end well.
Is there a mod in exsistance that can provide the information about what light cycle (day/night) the mission will be on the deployment screen?
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Meridian on September 01, 2017, 04:22:18 pm
edit: Another question.. mod related this time.
Yesterday i had an issue where i accepted a mission, went into the inventory/deployment screen and then got interuppted by someone at my door.
When i came back, i had completly forgotten if it was a day or night mission and "hoped" it was a day mission (it wasnt) safe to say it didnt end well.
Is there a mod in exsistance that can provide the information about what light cycle (day/night) the mission will be on the deployment screen?

No, there isn't... would need to be implemented.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: 7Saturn on September 01, 2017, 06:06:11 pm
Well, better avoid them altogether. On terror missions you might not have much of a choice, as well when you really want to attack a landed UFO (e. g. for its E115). But for the most part it is simple just to wait until daytime. One hint here: You will not get any penalty for not attacking crashed UFOs. Especially in lategame you will find, that there are plenty of UFOs laying around and you can pick your targets more to your liking.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on September 03, 2017, 04:25:58 pm
Allrighty.
Thanks for the replys again 7Saturn & Meridian (love your youtube stuff btw)
Illuminating answers as allways, love it.

Last set of questions, before im off work tomorrow for a week and have the time to really sink into the game.

Geoscape:
1.) What factors go into a decision of what region to place a expansion base? is it based solely on the finalcial side of the game? (how much each country is funding) or is there something else that goes into it? (i would assume there is some type of occurrence algorythm at play to ensure all UFO's dont congregate in a remote location like the poles) im asking because North America & Asia seems to fluctuate game to game with who provides the most funding.
2.) How is the first month scripted inside the game engine? from repeated 3 month playthoughs it seems to me, that UFO activity behave abit differently here than the rest of the months (is there some type of restriction at play aswell? can Alien bases be built within the first month?)

Battlescape:
3.) Is there any difference to the Left & Right hand? (a few days ago i made my own TU table for item slots and the thought occured to me that something simular might also be at work with the Left/Right hand)
4.) Do smoke grenades work vs elevated targets?
Example: Lets say i spawn right next to a two floor building and i know that a sectoid is standing in a window on the second floor, if i drop a smoke at the back of my Skyranger and walk out into the smoke clouds will the sectoids vision be impaired by each tile of smoke between the soldier & sectoid as if they were on the same elevation? or not?
5.) Vision & smoke interaction, how does it work? i know on a "feel basis" that smoke limits your vision range but im unclear about by how many squares and does it stay the same each turn?

Oh and last question: Incendiary ammo
This is the only weapon/ammo type i've yet to really "connect" with (outside of the starting pistols). I've found a use for every other weapon in the game for eighter broad usage or niche situations but i've simply been unable to find any that isnt covered by something else with this weapon.

When do you bring this ammo type? (if ever)
How does the fire work? will anything that passes though the fire catch fire? or do you need to hit the target with the shot to ensure they burn?
How much damage does the fire do?
Does a unit need to stay inside the fire to recive damage? (if not then for how long does the fire persist on said unit when it leaves?)

And lastly does anyone have a youtube video(s) of someone who uses Incendiary ammo to great effect? I would love to see someone make use of this stuff to learn.

Edit: forgot a question.. Is there any defensive merit to kneeling? (outside the accuracy increase on reaction snap shots) are you harder to hit when you kneel vs standing up?
Edit Edit: Forgot another question, is mind probe designated a Psionic when it comes to the advanced option of Psioic line of sight? within openxcom?

Phew.. quite abit of questions this time around.
My hope is to complete the game next week (if time permits) and then i think id like to make a introduction video to UFO Defense of the first three months with what i've learned at the end of it for players like me comming with classic/impossible experience of Enemy Within going into UFO Defense.
Stuff really started to click with me, when i started making direct links between the two games (in alot of ways they are the same, and in alot of ways they are not) and spead up the learning process.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: 7Saturn on September 03, 2017, 05:09:34 pm
1: Positioning of bases: I wouldn't take to much consideration into it during mid- and late game. But especially for the starting base: I wouldn't place it somewhere very remote, if I where you. AFAIK, there's one challenge, a player played: Playing with starting base on Hawaii. =) No, seriously, in the beginning, Afrika, Europe, Asia are all good, as there are plenty of nations around. In mid game it's more a priority of getting all UFOs on radar. Still, a few will slip through. But once you have covered all the continents/poles, you have only very little possibility of not finding out about their actions. The isles are a bit of a problem, as they are low priority, if you want to cover as much land mass as you can. They tend to build bases there eventually, and you will not notice them right away.
3: I don't think, there's any difference. AFAIK, there's no distinction of soldiers being left handed or right handed.
4: If the smoke reaches enough height, I think so. I am however not sure what happens, if the smoke is only on the bottom level, if this makes any difference to flying units.
5: Units standing on a tile in fire during the end of the round will either take damage or even be set on fire. AFAIK, incendiary ammo does a base amount of damage on impact (dmg starts not with 0 as the 0-200 rule dictates), but I might have understood that one wrong. I never use it...
6: I think so. You can hide behind it, if the cover is high enough. On the other hand, that also prevents you from seeing the rest or aiming at it. But yes, you can take cover like this. The biggest advantage however, is the increase of accuracy while kneeling.
7: Yes, you need line of sight for mind probes as well, if you use this mod.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: The Reaver of Darkness on September 04, 2017, 08:03:40 am
1.) Best positioning of bases is where you expect to find the aliens. You should make it a goal to cover all land on the planet with radar. The most important pieces of land are the funding nations and land near them. Europe is densely packed with multiple funding nations, so successful missions in Europe tend to increase your funding a lot. The USA is the largest funder while Canada and Mexico also pay you, so North America is pretty valuable. Europe, Asia, and Africa make a large amount of land all close together, if you have a base in the center of that landmass, your interceptors can reach all the way to the edges of it. Alternatively, you can cover the whole place with 3 bases if each has a large radar: one for Africa, one for Europe and the middle east, and one for the rest of Asia and part of the southeast islands.

Your second base ought to be far away from your first base, to improve your total world coverage.

If your base is near the edge of a large region, your radar may not cover the region very well and aliens may perform missions there without you knowing about it. You can see the list of world regions in the GRAPHS tab in-game, if you're seeing UFO Activity in Areas, or X-Com Activity in Areas.

2.) Some missions are scripted to happen automatically but throughout most of the game the alien missions happen in a randomized pattern. When you start a new game, an Alien Research mission begins immediately, focused 100% of the time in the same region as your base. If your base is centered on the region and especially if it is a small region, you will almost always detect a UFO near your base within the first few hours. It will tend to be a small scout, and it is the first UFO that appears for that mission.

If you see a lot of UFOs congregating over one area and landing, they are probably part of an Alien Base mission. You can run multiple ground missions on the larger UFOs to recover lots of valuable resources and items, and once the mission has progressed far enough, you can have an aircraft patrol over the area to discover the fresh alien base.

3.) There is no difference between left or right hand.

4.) Smoke grenades and other grenades do not work very well against elevated targets. Explosions occur only on the same elevation as the grenade. You can change this in the openxcom advanced settings, by changing the explosion height. I recommend doing so--the original game didn't have this feature but nearly everyone will agree that it should have.



The game is great in many ways, as I see you are discovering. But there are a bunch of areas where the balance falls short or fails completely.


Air combat is pretty poorly implemented in my opinion, and throughout the game you'll find it's generally pretty easy to shoot down UFOs. Catching them isn't always quite so easy, however. Once you research and build a new aircraft and the new air weapon, it'll be really easy to take out everything except the largest UFO type. Even before this, you can take out everything other than the largest with only interceptors and avalanches. Very small and small UFOs are easily downed with one interceptor, even mediums usually go down with only one interceptor. You can shoot down a terror ship with 2 interceptors/avalanches, and a supply ship with 3 or 4. The hardest part about shooting down the larger ones with interceptors is getting them all in range while it's moving slow enough.

Stingrays are fairly weak, the main reasons to ever use them are to crash land a small scout or to save storage space. Avalanches use a lot of space in your general stores, but otherwise are just plain better than stingrays. Also, you'll generally only see small scouts (size: very small) get destroyed. Even medium and large scouts (size: small) will generally crash land. If you do manage to destroy them, you get twice the points that you would have got for crashing them, but you lose the opportunity for a ground mission. If you don't intend to go to the crash site, then it would be better score-wise to destroy them if you could.



Incendiary ammo can be used like electro-flares, except you shoot it instead of throwing it. Larger incendiaries like the incendiary rocket have such a good spread that they light up way more area than an electro-flare. The fires you start will mostly just go out eventually but they can spread a bit and light up even more terrain. I haven't found incendiary to be that useful for lighting but it has potential benefits.

Incendiary damage is very weak. It is randomly 1,5,6,7,8,9, or 10 damage. In the original game it was the same possible values, except 50% of the time it was 1, and the other 50% it was 5-10. Reapers are a bit susceptible to it but otherwise the only enemy it's useful against is the sectopod because it penetrates armor. It'll take a lot of incendiary to take down a sectopod, but other weapons often don't do any damage to it at all, so it's the difference between it being difficult to kill vs impossible to kill. But the best thing to use against sectopods is powerful laser shots.

Psionics are also pretty easy. It'll seem scary when the aliens use them against you, but once you get your hands on psionics it makes the game almost too easy. And that's generally true of the late-game, it gets pretty easy. The aliens start trying harder to go against you, but you get so powerful you don't care.


- - - - - - - - - -

I put a lot of work into a mod for the game which attempts to preserve the unmodded feel of the game while fixing the game balance issues as well as adding a larger array of stuff so that you have more choices in the game, and I've been looking for a fresh player to try it out for me. If you're interested, here's the mod page: [UFO MEGAMOD] Reaver's Faithful Megamod (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,5543.0.html)

I tried to leave the game at about the same difficulty overall, however some things are easier while others are harder. The length of the game is significantly extended which fits well since there's more content overall. Air combat with UFOs will be more difficult--not difficult per se, just not stupidly easy--so you'd be getting your own aircraft shot more during combat. There's also more reason to use stingray missiles. Avalanches are weaker and more erratic, stingrays are potent and accurate but their drawback is having to get into danger range to shoot. You also get two interception craft: the interceptor and the punisher, both are weaker than your interceptors in the original game but if you learn their differences and use that to your advantage, they are still very capable aircraft.

The mod always gives you choices like that: stingray or avalanche, interceptor or punisher, pistols or rifles or heavy cannons, and all of them are great when used properly but it's up to you to decide which things work best for you, or perhaps you'll use different things in different situations.

I made psionics more difficult. The aliens using them against you might seem a bit stronger, but mostly when you start using them it'll be tricky to really get good psionic capability. Your soldiers will fail psionic attacks more often, and your best soldiers won't be able to mind control the strongest psionic aliens.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Hobbes on September 04, 2017, 06:42:56 pm
5.) Vision & smoke interaction, how does it work? i know on a "feel basis" that smoke limits your vision range but im unclear about by how many squares and does it stay the same each turn?

https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Smoke_Grenade (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Smoke_Grenade)
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: NKF on September 06, 2017, 09:46:11 am
Oh and last question: Incendiary ammo
This is the only weapon/ammo type i've yet to really "connect" with (outside of the starting pistols).

*Ahem*

I've for the most part been viewing these forums passively as a lurker, but I had this sudden irrational need to sign up.

The pistol and basic rifle are complementary weapons. Of the two, the basic rifle is hands down the better damage dealer at close range due to the auto shot. The pistol on the other hand is the superior snapshot weapon. It is the fastest snapshot weapon in the game and is just as accurate. Damage wise they are not that different. Both are effective against the enemies they are effective against (sectoids, floaters, snakemen) and ineffective against enemies they aren't (pretty much everything else ;) ).

The short of it is: if you like to use snapshots (and by extension reaction shots), the pistol's king. The rifle for auto.

Yes I know I'm promoting something that gets ditched the minute the laser pistol is researched a few days in. To its credit it does remain a fantastic reaction training weapon throughout the entire game.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: ohartenstein23 on September 06, 2017, 10:15:31 am
On incendiary ammo: try AC-I on reapers and cyberdiscs too close for large rockets or high explosives. The other two incendiary ammo types aren't worthwhile.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: 7Saturn on September 06, 2017, 10:48:32 am
The pistol and basic rifle are complementary weapons. Of the two, the basic rifle is hands down the better damage dealer at close range due to the auto shot. The pistol on the other hand is the superior snapshot weapon. It is the fastest snapshot weapon in the game and is just as accurate. Damage wise they are not that different. Both are effective against the enemies they are effective against (sectoids, floaters, snakemen) and ineffective against enemies they aren't (pretty much everything else ;) ).

The short of it is: if you like to use snapshots (and by extension reaction shots), the pistol's king. The rifle for auto.
Well, that depends on how your playstyle and situation is. You can do everything with the rifle (I know, I've played that way a long time) in early game, because it has a good chance of hitting a target (saves ammo and reaction of enemies). But entering a large scout with pistols can prove to be far more effective, especially against the early opponents Sectoids and Floaters. However using Scout & Snipe tactics on the battle field will most likely not work well with pistols. ;-) Every weapon has its use, but I also tend to play a bit more conservative: Rifles & Pistols (see above), bit later only laser rifles. I also went on playing with them trough the entire game on, but I prefer Plasma Pistol and Plasma Sniper Rifle complementing each other. On CQC Plasma Caster can be also fun. But the latter two are mod weapons...
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Hobbes on September 06, 2017, 12:04:53 pm
I've for the most part been viewing these forums passively as a lurker, but I had this sudden irrational need to sign up.

Welcome to the forums NKF :)

(he's one of the biggest XCom vets still out there)
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: NKF on September 06, 2017, 12:37:28 pm
However using Scout & Snipe tactics on the battle field will most likely not work well with pistols. ;-)

Heh, if memory serves, the ability to snipe all the way across the map with the different pistols in the vanilla game was one of the main reasons for the introduction of the popular Extender ranged based accuracy mod.

That said, even with the limited effective range, they still have quite a respectable range that the sniper/scout strategy is still viable. The shooters just have to be a bit closer to the action and maybe employ a smokescreen for added concealment.  +1 excuse to use smoke grenades. ;)
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: 7Saturn on September 06, 2017, 01:23:07 pm
Well, I always found auto- and snap shots with any weapon to be too dangerous, if you had to snipe from behind your own scout.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: ivandogovich on September 06, 2017, 04:25:48 pm
Heh, if memory serves, the ability to snipe all the way across the map with the different pistols in the vanilla game was one of the main reasons for the introduction of the popular Extender ranged based accuracy mod.

Welcome NKF!!   

I wanted to chime in on your comments about the basic pistol.  A few years back I did a Youtube Lets Play series called "OpenXcom: Up Close and Personal."  The gimmick was that long guns weren't allowed.  Pistols, Grenades, and Melee only.  So I used the heck out of the vanilla pistol.  Fast Aimed Shots across the map using scout and snipe tactics were one of the main staples of the campaign.  Mutons were the only reason to migrate away from the pistols, as they were almost completely ineffective.  But ever since then, I've always maintained a healthy respect and admiration for the humble pistol, and that campaign, I think, made me a better player by learning to play within those limitations.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on September 06, 2017, 08:58:11 pm
Pistols vs Rifles (just to ensure i've understood this correctly)

> 21+ squares away: Pistols (aimed & snap shot)
> 6~7-20 squares away: Rifles (aimed shot) Pistol (snap shot)
> 1-6~7 squares away: Rifles (auto shot) Pistol (snap shot)

21+ squares away:
reaction fire isnt a factor so the higher TU per shot efficiency of Pistols will win out

6~7-20 squares away:
reaction fire is a factor so Rifles with aimed shot yields a higher chance (if you have one shot that HAS to hit) and Pistols will drain significantly less TUs per snap shot meaning reaction fire is less likely to happen.

1-6~7 squares away:
Rilfes with auto (basicly used as a psudo shotgun) *you might be able to use a Pistol more effectly in close range (TU wise) if you are willing to take the bet that a single snapshot will kill your target.
but probability math should favor the Rifle in this case (its more likely the target will survive a single snapshot than die if you take into account the variable of missing the target aswell as low rolling your hit shot)


Did i understand the conversation correctly?

My thoughts:
I think i see the potential of the pistol as an open-space scouting tool in the early game. (i think i wrote it off to soon, caused by the lack of an auto feature, will test it out in my next playthough)
When i deployed in the early game it was with: Tank -> 2x high reaction scouts (rifles) -> 2x high fire acc snipers (HC-HE) -> 2x Large Rockets -> 4x Utility (Rifles) [i think im going to try ditching the rilfes on my two high reaction scouts next time and see how that feels]

My real issue though is this: Its not just Rifles vs Pistols. Its Rifles vs Pistols vs HEs/Grenades
Its all about managing risks & weighing the potential of defensive vs offensive useage of your reaction stat to manipulate reaction fire into your favor.

In the early game your weapons isnt favored in eighter damage or accuracy, thus taking mid range snap shot exchanges or using reactions in a defensive mannor isnt in your favor
Offensive useage of reactions to get into a better position i find to be the way to go and then it comes down to taking the highest % chance action to limit the risk of incomming reaction fire.

Rifle auto shot: 35% TU and yields three shots before the enemy can return fire.
Pistol snap shot: 18% TU and yeilds one shot before the enemy can return fire. (36% for two shots seems more likely if you factor in the chance of a low roll & chance to miss the target)
HE: grenade relay costs 8+25% TU (will allways be lower than both Rifle auto shot & two pistol snap shots) with zero chance of the subject surviving the hit.

I find it tough to justify the Pistol on paper but im down to test it out in full.
Good stuff all around.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: 7Saturn on September 06, 2017, 09:42:02 pm
As mentioned before, the pistol gets very powerfull when reaction triggering is considered. Simply put: Where you set one, maybe two reaction shots with the rifle, you can blast around four times with 100 % TUs, as it only takes 18% TUs. And one thing hasn't even been mentioned: It is not too unlikely, that you actually need more than one shot to down the opponent. That can make rifles less of a preferred weapon, especially in CQC. Most strongly, when the target is so close that you can simply run over and make it a sieve by the time it might react.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on September 06, 2017, 11:18:27 pm
As mentioned before, the pistol gets very powerfull when reaction triggering is considered. Simply put: Where you set one, maybe two reaction shots with the rifle, you can blast around four times with 100 % TUs, as it only takes 18% TUs. And one thing hasn't even been mentioned: It is not too unlikely, that you actually need more than one shot to down the opponent. That can make rifles less of a preferred weapon, especially in CQC. Most strongly, when the target is so close that you can simply run over and make it a sieve by the time it might react.

I dont quite understand your logic of pistol vs rifle at close range.
If your talking probability math, then within 6~7 squares (the expected distances you will find in houses and small scouts in the early game) Auto Shot Rifle surely wins out vs the Pistol Snap Shot.
You don't have access to a mind probe, so you dont know two key variables: 1.) the enemys remaining TUs 2.) its reaction stat
Say it hasnt moved and has around 60 reaction, i'll take the Rifle Auto Shot anyday of the week. Any action of 10+TU's would cause reaction fire by the sectoid in this instance and if thats the case i'll take the three shots with lower % chance to hit, than 1 snap shot at 50% with a chance of leaving the sectoid alive.
I cant see the merit for the Pistol in close quarters (if you disregard its ability to nail a sectoid with a single snap shot, leaving you ample chances to move to cover) but i can def see its merits on the open field.
And the difference between 3 TU's (the difference between having a grenade in hand and having it in your shoulder slot) just isnt enough to merit the Pistol in that regard.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: 7Saturn on September 07, 2017, 12:27:50 am
Well, as I said: when it comes to reaction fire triggering. That's where the pistol is strong. Especially considering the lack of information about the TUs and Reaction of the enemy. The spread is less of a problem and the reaction triggering is definitely in your favor. Or another way put: You stand in front of the door of a large scout, three men. Run in, take 2-3 shots, run out. you simply can't do that as easily with rifle snap. OK, that's where auto is strong. But only once. After the first salvo, you are usually out of luck, especially if the guys missed and have to get out of there, before it's the aliens turn. Running out is usually out of the question then.  With pistols you might even set a fourth and fifth shot, before there is a chance of retaliation by reaction fire. Do that with three men, all of them getting in 2 fields, do the job and get the hell out of there. In my experience, retreating again works not as well with rifles.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: The Reaver of Darkness on September 07, 2017, 08:55:44 am
I find you can do great just abandoning pistols altogether and using rifles. You use laser pistols until you get laser rifles, and don't even research plasma pistols but go straight to heavy plasmas. There are some cases where a pistol can be handy but most of the time auto shots are king at just about any range so there's little reason to ever use pistols. One thing is for sure: pistols don't work in all cases but rifles do.

Some mods aim to fix this by buffing pistols which I think is great. I buffed pistols in my mod and I've seen others that do this as well. But as others have said here, they can still be useful at times un-modded. Probably the most popular use of the original pistol is reaction fire training: you get a tough alien such as a muton or ethereal to drop their weapon, then surround them with troops using pistols. End turn. When the alien moves, your soldiers shoot them with pistols. They can get up to 5 snap shots in reaction fire per turn. This will raise their accuracy and reactions attributes, and that's the two biggest focus attributes toward making super soldiers. Everything else is either unimportant or rises automatically by collecting kills.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: NKF on September 07, 2017, 02:10:26 pm
By the way I'm not really trying to discredit the basic rifle as it's an okay all-rounder. It's a good device to contrast the pistol against due to the shared similarities between the two weapons.

And the difference between 3 TU's (the difference between having a grenade in hand and having it in your shoulder slot) just isnt enough to merit the Pistol in that regard.

True, a 3TU saving isn't really a strong justification for the pistol. But assuming you have an extra TU or two left over, that's enough to kneel or walk another tile! ;)

Joking aside, the pistol's one handed grip is a primarily a convenience feature that means you do not suffer the accuracy penalty when holding something in the other hand. So you can have something else ready all the time and not have to stow it away and pull it back out again in between shots.


I wanted to chime in on your comments about the basic pistol.  A few years back I did a Youtube Lets Play series called "OpenXcom: Up Close and Personal."  The gimmick was that long guns weren't allowed.  Pistols, Grenades, and Melee only.  So I used the heck out of the vanilla pistol.  Fast Aimed Shots across the map using scout and snipe tactics were one of the main staples of the campaign.  Mutons were the only reason to migrate away from the pistols, as they were almost completely ineffective.  But ever since then, I've always maintained a healthy respect and admiration for the humble pistol, and that campaign, I think, made me a better player by learning to play within those limitations.

I gained my respect for the pistol way back in the day from one of those classic scenarios where you think you are at the point of defeat only to have the survivors pull off a miracle. In this case I sent a squad to attack a Floater base. They got utterly destroyed. The only person left standing was carrying a pistol and a handful of grenades. The mission was an outright loss at that point so I decided to keep playing to see how the soldier would get killed.

I don't remember the outcome, but the number of casualties on the alien side after the battle left me wondering what the heck just happened. There's more to it that happened afterwards, but that was the seed that set me down the path to try and understand why the weakest weapon in the game was performing far better than expected.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: 7Saturn on September 07, 2017, 02:18:01 pm
Well, for one thing: Your rate of triggering reaction fire is smaller. More likely to survive... =)
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Countdown on September 07, 2017, 08:23:37 pm
Heh: one tip on the proximity grenade:  Toss it on tile away from the door

D|_|X

Where D is the door, _ is empty tile, and X is proximity grenade. 
The reason is that an enemy approaching behind the door will trigger it if its right at the door, but the door will be closed when it goes off, and the enemy takes no damage.  When you deploy it as suggested, they get blasted when they step out of the craft.
Really? I never knew this. Was this "issue" fixed in TFTD? I have recently successfully used proximity grenades right in front of the alien door ... but maybe that was because it was a double door?

D|X
D|A

Where D is the door, X is the proximity grenade, and A is the dead alien after it stepped out.

In case anyone was curious about this, I looked back at the save to try and figure out why my proximity grenade right in front of the door was successful. Turns out the Aquatoid was already up against the door so his first step was on the prox grenade. So I just got lucky ... really lucky since the grenade took out both aliens that were standing there. ;D

But this does make me wonder how many kills I've missed out on in the past (and how many soldiers needlessly died) because I didn't know about this door issue. Thanks for the tip Ivan. It's crazy I've played so many hours on this game and still didn't know an important mechanic like this.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on September 08, 2017, 02:04:10 am
Allmost done with my initial playthough.
New questions arise though.

1.) Experience.. been reading though UFOpeadia on the subject but still abit confused on the subject. "Every time a Primary Action is taken, Primary Skill Points are earned" am i to take that as "taking a reaction shot, firing, stunning, throwing, using psionics & the game enforcing a bravery check on said soldier" is what that means? and if that is the case, can you then blind fire into blank space with soldiers three times to gain the experience? from just outside the skyranger? or do you need to be doing the "Primary Action" towards an enemy?

2.) Difficulty scaling numbers.. I've been trying to figure out the probability of an Alien Retaliation mission being initiated after each UFO ive been shooting down but reading though the wiki, those numbers elude me (if they are there, i seem unable to find them) does anyone know what % of chance it is for each difficulty level?

As allways, much love!
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Yataka Shimaoka on September 08, 2017, 02:32:03 am
To gain accuracy points, the soldier must hit a target, and those targets are alien, civilians, and xcom too

When it comes to geoscape, the difficulty is not changed, only the battlescaps will change difficulty
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: ohartenstein23 on September 08, 2017, 08:19:04 am
When it comes to geoscape, the difficulty is not changed, only the battlescaps will change difficulty

Not quite true, on Superhuman shooting down a UFO has a one in five chance of causing a retaliation mission, this goes down significantly for lower difficulty.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Meridian on September 08, 2017, 09:07:56 am
2.) Difficulty scaling numbers.. I've been trying to figure out the probability of an Alien Retaliation mission being initiated after each UFO ive been shooting down but reading though the wiki, those numbers elude me (if they are there, i seem unable to find them) does anyone know what % of chance it is for each difficulty level?

Beginner=4%, Experienced=8%, Veteran=12%, Genius=16%, Superhuman=20%

...unless there already is a retaliation mission in that region, in which case the chance drops to 0%.

When it comes to geoscape, the difficulty is not changed, only the battlescaps will change difficulty

If you're not sure, don't spread misinformation please.

Besides what ohartenstein said, difficulty affects UFO escape countdown and firing rate in dogfights, monthly rating thresholds, etc.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: NKF on September 08, 2017, 10:37:29 am
1.) Experience.. been reading though UFOpeadia on the subject but still abit confused on the subject. "Every time a Primary Action is taken, Primary Skill Points are earned" am i to take that as "taking a reaction shot, firing, stunning, throwing, using psionics & the game enforcing a bravery check on said soldier" is what that means? and if that is the case, can you then blind fire into blank space with soldiers three times to gain the experience? from just outside the skyranger? or do you need to be doing the "Primary Action" towards an enemy?


With the exception of morale and throwing, most of the primary actions only award experience checks when used against the enemy. You shouldn't get anything from allies, civilians or scenery.

It goes:

Reactions - Increments if you qualify for a reaction shot during the alien's turn. You still earn the check if the triggering alien is killed before you can fire a shot.

Firing Accuracy or rather the 'successful hit' counter  - increments per hit on an enemy with a bullet or area-of-effect attack. If memory serves, there's a bug in the original game that awarded a point to anyone that sets off a live proximity mine. ;)

Melee - increments on each successful melee hit on an enemy with a stun rod. 

Throwing - increments by simply throwing stuff. Anything. Anywhere.

Psionic Skill - increments by using a psi-amp attack on an alien. A failure is worth 1 count, a success is worth 3.

Morale - increments every turn you resist panic while under 50% morale.

Unless I missed something, I think that covers most of it.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on September 08, 2017, 05:54:14 pm
Thanks for the information everyone.
As allways very enlightning.

Oh and follow up question(s) to clear something up..

1.) Does mind probes count as a psionic when it comes to experience gain? (i know it counts as a psionic in general terms)
2.) IF it does count towards experience gain, do you gain experience towards psionics even though you dont have access to a psionic lab?
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Yataka Shimaoka on September 08, 2017, 06:56:25 pm
I believe no
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on September 09, 2017, 04:58:06 am
And im done =) what a great game all around. (Cydonia was a let down though, pyramid spawn litterly right next to my avenger and there were very few enemies inside the base it self to contend with)

A few close calls along the way and abit of fatigue set in around the midgame when dealing with Psionics (but boy does it turn the game into a stomp fest when you enter late game and your the one mindcontrolling everything on the map)

Played it though on Veteran and next time i'll def be doing it on Superhuman with Psionic LoS on, to not make the late game as trivial as it turned out to be.
Thanks for the help everyone, i really did (and still do) appriciate the time you took to answer my questions.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: 7Saturn on September 09, 2017, 08:57:00 am
I think psionic LoS makes the early and mid game far easier, as it only brings major disadvantages to the AI.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: The Reaver of Darkness on September 09, 2017, 10:04:11 am
Why don't you try a modded playthrough next? My mod extends the gameplay without heavily changing it.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Countdown on September 09, 2017, 12:57:46 pm
I think psionic LoS makes the early and mid game far easier, as it only brings major disadvantages to the AI.

You can make just the PsiAmp LOS so the aliens can still use MC as normal, but you can only use MC with LOS. Mod that and make the psi amp very heavy (ie cumbersome), very expensive/difficult to manufacture, and you might be on your way to decent balancing.

From the UFOPaedia (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Ruleset_Reference_Nightly_(OpenXcom)#Items):
LOSRequired   Does this item require line of sight? (only applies to mind probes and psi-amps)   false

And im done =) what a great game all around. (Cydonia was a let down though, pyramid spawn litterly right next to my avenger and there were very few enemies inside the base it self to contend with)

A few close calls along the way and abit of fatigue set in around the midgame when dealing with Psionics (but boy does it turn the game into a stomp fest when you enter late game and your the one mindcontrolling everything on the map)

Played it though on Veteran and next time i'll def be doing it on Superhuman with Psionic LoS on, to not make the late game as trivial as it turned out to be.
Yes, once you get MC the game turns into a joke. I was also let down a bit by my first Cydonia run because it was just too easy at that point. I suggest playing on SuperHuman and severely limiting mind control use and blaster launchers (through mods or self restrictions) to make it a bit more of a challenge.

7Saturn is right that if you just make all mind control LOS, the game will get too easy because the aliens will be severely limited. Better to just make the Psi Amp LOS through a mod.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on September 09, 2017, 05:43:31 pm
Why don't you try a modded playthrough next? My mod extends the gameplay without heavily changing it.

I think i'll keep mods on the back burner for now, played 2012 quite a few times before i started playing with LongWar.

Yes, once you get MC the game turns into a joke. I was also let down a bit by my first Cydonia run because it was just too easy at that point. I suggest playing on SuperHuman and severely limiting mind control use and blaster launchers (through mods or self restrictions) to make it a bit more of a challenge.

7Saturn is right that if you just make all mind control LOS, the game will get too easy because the aliens will be severely limited. Better to just make the Psi Amp LOS through a mod.

Well, thats something to think about.. allthough i dont feel as though psionics is something that adds complexity to the game at all.
The optimal way of dealing with it, is making the needed sacrifices in the midgame by going grenade less against sectoids and dropping your weapon at the end of each turn. (you dont get to have any reaction shots but that is something you can deal with quite easily) the only thing it did to me, was making me sort of annoyed at having to do inventory management each turn (hence my midgame fatigue) .. i dont know, i would have liked to see psionics adhere to squadsight for the aliens and pure LoS for Xcom, that i think would be the perfect way to handle it.

And yeah, blaster launchers was fun for a grand total of a few maps and then they got put back on the shelf for ruining my fun :P

edit: i do have one regret though, and that was not testing out heavy lasers vs sectopods. i really want to see if they are a viable way of dealing with them late game.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: The Reaver of Darkness on September 09, 2017, 10:24:33 pm
edit: i do have one regret though, and that was not testing out heavy lasers vs sectopods. i really want to see if they are a viable way of dealing with them late game.
I definitely recommend using heavy lasers against sectopods. You might not find them to be your favorite way of dealing with them but it is certainly a way. Pro tip: sectopods have less armor in the back.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: NKF on September 09, 2017, 11:44:33 pm
The Heavy Laser's quite an effective Sectopod buster, but do give it to someone fairly accurate as it handles like a slightly less accurate Heavy Cannon.

With psi, since it's so powerful in the hands of the player, I often either restrict my number of psi-amps down to one, stick to panic attacks only or more commonly not use the psi-amp at all. Not using psi attacks does turn the game into a matter of managing how to resist at first (*ahem* psi sponges) until you can screen enough troops to become immune to psi attacks. It is ignoring a feature of the game, but one I can certainly live without as it's not as much fun when battles turn into psionic daisy chains and executions.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Countdown on September 10, 2017, 12:27:20 am
Well, thats something to think about.. allthough i dont feel as though psionics is something that adds complexity to the game at all.
The optimal way of dealing with it, is making the needed sacrifices in the midgame by going grenade less against sectoids and dropping your weapon at the end of each turn. (you dont get to have any reaction shots but that is something you can deal with quite easily) the only thing it did to me, was making me sort of annoyed at having to do inventory management each turn (hence my midgame fatigue)
Yeah there are definitely ways around alien psi. Even better than dropping weapons is having a couple of "Psi Rods". Those are soldiers that have very low psi strength and you equip them with a stun rod or something and let the aliens go wild with them. Both methods still put the player at a slight disadvantage since you are down a man that will likely die (with the psi rod) or you can't reaction shot and waste TUs rearming if you do the drop weapons method.

Alien psi at least adds another element to consider and definitely gives the aliens a leg up in the early game.

i dont know, i would have liked to see psionics adhere to squadsight for the aliens and pure LoS for Xcom, that i think would be the perfect way to handle it.

Right, that's exactly what I was saying. The aliens have squadsight with Psionics by default, so the only thing you need to do is make the Psi Amp LOS and then you have the situation you just described.

edit: i do have one regret though, and that was not testing out heavy lasers vs sectopods. i really want to see if they are a viable way of dealing with them late game.

For the record, you can test any Battlescape game mechanic in the "New Battle" option from the start menu. There, you can equip your squad with whatever items you like while going up against whatever alien race you want, on the map you want, at the difficulty you want. You can even set the darkness level so it's a very helpful option for testing.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on September 10, 2017, 08:35:11 am
Hey countdown.

On my phone so this might end up a mess.
The way Psionics work in UFO defense, dors not adhere to the rules of squadsight.

Squadsight would mean that any alien would need vision (on that turn) of the xcom operative before psionic attacks is eligable to be used on that target (by anyone, regardless of los)

Testing tells me it dors not work like this in the game (someone who knows the exact inner workings of the engine would be needed to give you a definitive answer) but all i can tell you is, it does not adhere to the squadsight ruleset (from xcom 2012)
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Countdown on September 10, 2017, 08:51:23 am
Okay, I think I'm understanding what you're saying. I have never played XCOM 2012, so wasn't 100% sure about squadsight. The thing is, in UFO Defense, "vision" or "sight" doesn't necessarily work realistically. The aliens have memory (the technical term is "intelligence" (https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Alien_Stats) and different races and ranks have a different memory length) where if they spot your soldier, they know your soldier's location (aka "see" you) for the next X turns (where X is dependent on the race/rank of the alien).

So if an alien spots you, and then you go hide behind a wall or go through another door, in UFO Defense, the alien still "sees" you (or remembers your location) even though they don't have LOS on you because you go behind that wall or through that door. In that sense, UFO does use figurative "squadsight" for psionics because only one alien needs to know your location for any alien to launch a psionic attack.

But you are right, no, in UFO there doesn't actually need to be an alien who currently literally sees you to use Psi. They just need to have seen you and still remember where you went.

Hopefully that made sense. :P
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: The Reaver of Darkness on September 11, 2017, 01:36:51 pm
So if an alien spots you, and then you go hide behind a wall or go through another door, in UFO Defense, the alien still "sees" you (or remembers your location) even though they don't have LOS on you because you go behind that wall or through that door. In that sense, UFO does use figurative "squadsight" for psionics because only one alien needs to know your location for any alien to launch a psionic attack.
The alien using the psionic attack must know your soldier's location to attack. For example, if we have a sectoid soldier with intelligence 3 and a sectoid leader with intelligence 2 (values altered from vanilla), the sectoid soldier spots Rookie McFleesalot, who promptly runs away and disappears from sight. 2 turns later the sectoid soldier knows where Rookie McFleesalot is hiding, but the sectoid leader forgets and cannot launch a psi attack.

This is only relevant when you alter the intelligence values because by default, all aliens who can use psionic attacks have a higher intelligence than any aliens who cannot.

Also, if you set intelligence to 0, it acts exactly the same as if it were set to 1, and the alien will remember units spotted during both your turn immediately prior to theirs as well as their own previous turn.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on September 12, 2017, 07:32:53 am
Here's a question i forgot to ask, while i played though the game.

Does throwing accuracy work in 1.0? or is there a difference in that department between UFO and TFTD?
I've been doing some small skirmish(s) in the newest nightly build playing TFTD and i've noticed grenades going off target quite abit.
That made me think back to UFO and i cannot recall that happening once.

also a posibility i just didnt notice grenades going of course in UFO defense
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: NKF on September 12, 2017, 08:20:42 am
Throwing accuracy does work. It's just that the inaccuracy is much more obvious with thrown items as you see exactly where the projectile ends up. The area effect nature of explosives usually masks the inaccuracy as you only need to get an explosive close enough for it to work.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on September 12, 2017, 10:16:16 am
Im not so sure your right NKF.

Just did some tests in OpenXcom v1.0
8x2 Grenades thrown max distance out the back of the skyranger (with acc ranging from 50%->90%)

Did the test three times (a total of 48 throws) and not a single one missed.

I know the sample size isnt optimal (im low on time as i have to go to work soonish) but my gut is telling me something aint right here. (if the accuracy numbers of the throw are correct, then you would expect a bigger number of miss placed grenades)
* or its handled differently between the two games

edit: just did another round before going out the door, still no misses even with soldiers with 50-60% accuracy, i have yet to miss a throw of a grenade in any of my tests (they allways land exactly where i place the mouse curser)
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on September 12, 2017, 11:39:45 am
Just did another test at work on the newest nightly build with TFTD & UFO (if my boss finds out, he'll kill me :D)
20 grenades, 4 missed its target in TFTD and 20 grenades, 5 missed its target in UFO.

Now thats the type of numbers i would expect to see in v1.0 but i just dont.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: NKF on September 12, 2017, 12:20:52 pm
I thought I'd run some tests as I was starting to wonder about that myself. I set up separate saves in OpenXCom and in good old vanilla UFO with a brand new beginner game, loaded the Skyranger up with 8 rifles and on the first mission everyone just walks down to the base of the ramp and tosses their rifle into the top corner of the Skyranger's tile area where the tiles visibly change. In some 20+ tosses, OpenXcom hasn't missed. But in vanilla at least 40%~60% of the tosses were misses with the rifles landing in a spread around the target tile.

Peculiar, there should be some variation there.

edit:

Restarting the test with a new batch of soldiers managed to get about 1 ~ 2 misses per 8 tosses in OpenXcom. Guess my last batch were too accurate. That's with the Nightly build. No change in 1.0 where every toss was hitting the exact target every time.

edit: edit:

And found the answer after a forum search. There's a division error in 1.0 affecting the throw trajectory.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on September 12, 2017, 11:00:28 pm
Ok, well guess that sorts that out then :)

Gonna switch to the nightly build for my next playthough of UFO Defense
Oh and thanks for the time & effort you put into it NKF, much appriciated
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: The Reaver of Darkness on September 13, 2017, 09:00:40 am
I had noticed in the original that grenades seemed to almost never miss, and when they did miss they were rarely off by more than 1 tile. I guess that explains it.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Hobbes on September 14, 2017, 01:52:00 am
Gonna switch to the nightly build for my next playthough of UFO Defense

1.0 is outdated at this point considering the amount of fixes and modding features that were added to the nightlies since 1.0 was released
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Dybdal on September 14, 2017, 08:42:01 am
As someone who's recently come into contact with OpenXcom, i can say from my point of view that when deciding what to download (v1.0 or the newest nightly) i chose to go for v1.0 as information on the stability or the added features between the two isnt easy to come by.

Food for thought.
Thanks all.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: The Reaver of Darkness on September 14, 2017, 09:27:59 am
1.0 is beyond outdated. I keep telling them they need to make a version 1.1 because people will keep falling into that trap otherwise.
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Hobbes on September 14, 2017, 12:01:54 pm
1.0 is beyond outdated. I keep telling them they need to make a version 1.1 because people will keep falling into that trap otherwise.

This discussion has surfaced several times. Devs have their reasons  8)
Title: Re: Got a few questions about UFO Defense.
Post by: Countdown on September 14, 2017, 04:40:50 pm
1.0 is outdated at this point considering the amount of fixes and modding features that were added to the nightlies since 1.0 was released
+1

Dybdal, there has literally been years of bug fixes (plus some extra features and tons of mods) since 1.0. Definitely ditch 1.0 immediately and go to the Nightlies.

As someone who's recently come into contact with OpenXcom, i can say from my point of view that when deciding what to download (v1.0 or the newest nightly) i chose to go for v1.0 as information on the stability or the added features between the two isnt easy to come by.
1.0 is beyond outdated. I keep telling them they need to make a version 1.1 because people will keep falling into that trap otherwise.
+1000000

I just said this myself in SuperSuper's suggestions thread (https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,5695.msg87718.html#msg87718). As a new user, based on what is written on the main page, 1.0 seems like the most logical choice, but it actually doesn't make sense to play 1.0 when it's so out of date and has basically zero mod support.

This discussion has surfaced several times. Devs have their reasons  8)

I'd be curious to know even one of the reasons ... at least a reason why they don't change the main page language to reflect reality (the reality being that the Nightlies are the superior choice for almost everyone). I mean, it doesn't affect me at all at this point so I'm not going to stress about it, but there have been dozens of users on these forums (and I'd imagine many more unreported) who have been "falling into that trap" as Reaver put it.