Author Topic: A thread for little questions  (Read 650401 times)

Offline JustTheDude/CABSHEP

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2550 on: December 07, 2020, 10:23:29 pm »
There are enemies who have very good night vision, there are some who have SPOT which is anti-CAMO, some have SENSE and don't require light, or even line of sight and there are some that act like sniper-spotters and can shoot you units from outside of their view range.

Offline Nilex

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2551 on: December 08, 2020, 12:32:17 am »
In the original, enemy spotting mechanic was completely unfair to the point it looked harder to code it that way than simply the logical way, how you two described it. For example shooting and hitting enemy unit beyond its visual range makes the shooter visible to everyone on the map for few turns. It may be that your entire squad get spotted as well (can't remember). Some very wonky stuff happens under the hood after the first bullet lands (up until that point it works as expected).

It's hard to say how much of it was dealt with in XPZ but I know for sure some of it is still there. For example enemy lobbing grenades through open roof of my vessel, without direct line of sight or means of detection (not even debatable). But I had shoot at that same enemy previous turn so there you go. There's also subtle AI movement: appearing from nowhere and saving just enough TU to fire and make a run for safety, as if it knew exactly where my Gal was.

Most infamous example was when you got to PSI/MC in the original. Then it became super obvious how broken spotting was. I haven't reached advanced Voodoo stage yet so I can't compare yet but the path leading up to it so far is far less aggravating than in the original. Maybe because accuracy limitations over greater distances discourages AI to even make shoots from afar. Still not begin enough that I would start paying any attention to CAMO values or just plain day/night condition, sorry to say. Great idea in principle but why bother.

If there's any more light to be shed in my direction I'd love to hear it because I'd like to finally incorporate CAMO to complement my crew (Ghost suit is on the horizont). It works so well for the enemy I'm getting reluctant to do otherwise trivial Bogeyman missions. I just learned to deal with it all as it is (mainly via extensive use of quickload lol).

Offline Dioxine

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2552 on: December 08, 2020, 01:36:07 am »
AI spotting is "broken" in certain ways to make up for player no-LoS abuse (how they lobbing a grenade blind is unfair, if a player can do that too? Well with some scouting maybe, but AI is unable to scout purposefully. Besides, really, how throwing a grenade through the roof of your craft is "broken"? It's the most logical thing to do.
But there are certain rules. Also no-LoS penalty to hit was added, which hampers AI the same way as it hampers the player.

Offline Nilex

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2553 on: December 08, 2020, 03:30:37 am »
Just so you know I hope you understand it's not my intention to talk smack about the mod. The guy asking the question looks somewhat disappointed, perhaps even frustrated if you read between the lines, but still made an effort to be polite about it. No better way to reassure them than being openly honest and throw em a bone explaining they're not alone. If they really hate what they hear they'll quit early and no harm done. Although in this case I'd say it would be their loss. There are enough ways to deal with it and frankly, unless you have a lot of time, best left alone. I suspect your hands are largely tied with changing core mechanic anyway.

Now from a philosophical standpoint what you sad about LoS abuse I completely disagree. Enemy has manpower and weapon advantage at all times. Not a small thing. Only thing it lacks in comparison is intelligence. The average player should be allowed to take advantage of that one thing. Let them enjoy the fruits of their labor. Devs often fall into trap of balancing the game for top 1% players, screwing other 99% in the process who just play the game normally. Especially F2P game dev scum, but I don't wanna open old wounds here.
It's gets worse if you drag logic into the equation because then Star Gods nuke your base in February. Always. Something along that line lol. Logic is healthy in right amounts but terrible balancing tool.

In short, spotting is SNAFU. As Star Gods intended. So say we all.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2554 on: December 08, 2020, 04:18:47 am »
I am not entirelly sure how your examples relate to Piratez; if they do not, you're just saying obvious things. Well, maybe not so obvious to everyone, but obvious to me, because striking balance between discouraging pathological exploits (or you can cynically name it, game experience I do not want to happen as the developer) used by "best" players while not fucking players who just want to have fun, took many many iterations to arrive at this point, and it is an ongoing process still. As for "top" players I have no idea whom you even mean, because that depends on your definition.

Enemy having firepower advantage - this is certainly not true for the most part in XPZ, however does happen in hard missions - especially if you don't expect what will happen and not escalate your means of violence proportionally, or, so to speak, break out the big guns you don't normally use (which is deresively called "gear check", as if getting better gear was not a matter of player's strategy). As for advantage of player in intelligence - yes, one example is that player can abuse automatic doors and AI can't. It doesn't however take much intelligence to do so.

If you think camo is useless because of the fact enemy can spot you - yes, if you hit a "spotter" enemy, communication does get relayed, and your unit stays spotted for a few turns, but I play a lot of nightfighting with the use of camo, and it surely works - just requires, uhm, intelligence to use. The difference is, using camo and darkness is no longer overkill, you need to keep some focus to your formation and possiblity of getting spotted, also some contingencies for the case enemies might still be able to shoot at you (however inaccurately) and hit, instead of just forming firing line, lighting enemy up and keep mashing "end turn" until they all die. You might say, I don't consider "never get your soldiers hurt" as "best gameplay". That is not to say you're in any way worse for ignoring camo - you make your own rules, and play your way as Player One, of course - but dismissing the whole concept while knowing nothing about it is rude.

Yes, my hands are largely tied, but I do propose improvements to the coders, and some of them get implemented. Like the sniper-spotter system ("AI LoS cheat") and no-LoS firing penalty, as well as CQC system, to name just a few things.

I am sorry if my replies seem harsh, but I have to deal with frustrated players on almost daily basis, and with real psychopaths at least twice a year.

Offline ZoA

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2555 on: December 08, 2020, 06:51:56 pm »
I'm sorry my question caused any discord, it was not intended.

To clarify motive for my question was  a mission I did in L5A2 day before yesterday when two gals of mine got shredded in a night mission by Field Gun some 20 to 25 squares away while I believed in both cases they were in position where they should not be visible to any living opponent, and Field Gun itself had night vision of only 15. I assumed it could be a bug or some game mechanic i was unaware of. Now i think they might have been casualties of this "visible for several turns" mechanic.

This mission in addition tom that one Field Gun also had bunch of Stormrat and Highwayman. Can any of those act as a spotters for that Field Gun?

Offline JustTheDude/CABSHEP

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2556 on: December 08, 2020, 07:09:52 pm »
There is also issue if this was really "night". Very early mornings, or very late evenings are pretty dark visually, but don't count as night for example.

Offline ZoA

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2557 on: December 08, 2020, 07:55:30 pm »
There is also issue if this was really "night". Very early mornings, or very late evenings are pretty dark visually, but don't count as night for example.

In this specific case it was night for sure because if could not spot distant enemies beyond range of my gal's night vision.

Offline Nilex

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2558 on: December 08, 2020, 08:35:54 pm »
Been a victim of day/night confusion myself on several occasions, with that night vision sensitivity setting playing a pivotal role. Would be mighty funny if that turned out to be the case. I settled on "9" and didn't feel the urge to change for a month now.

Can any of those act as a spotters for that Field Gun?
I though so. But now that I think about it not sure if tele-spotting is a thing or the actual unit doing the firing must have its target spotted (in any capacity) to act. Can't remember any example of tele-spotting atm.

@Dioxine
Yeah I agree being a public figure sucks these days (years, decades). Hope I don't have to explain why to anyone. Your handling of critique and expectation pressure has been exemplary considering it's just you vs. the masses, not to mention huge toll on your free time. You'll never know how much some of us appreciate that.
As for design philosophy it's not the time or place I feel. Written format lacks subtle ways of conveying thoughts and emotions (and my vocabulary ain't the best) so let's not dig deeper. We know you're doing the best you can and are eternally grateful. The psychos are just ordinary people who got awe-struck by incredible gem that drop into their lap and immediately turned into Gollums. That's the internet for ya - no filter. Highly recommend DILIGAF approach.

Offline Alex the KatanaCutlass

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2559 on: December 08, 2020, 10:08:08 pm »
I SUPPORT Dioxine. Not only as an ex punk and ever a fan of punk music. First and foremost, I support you, Dioxine, for this great mod. You give my free time that extra "OH, HELL, YEAH!"

AND I AM ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT EVERYONE NORMAL HERE SUPPORTS DIOXINE!
So it's two of us. Plus thousands. Or you plus thousands plus me. You decide.

Punk is not dead! It never was and won't be.

Alex

Offline Jimboman

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2560 on: December 08, 2020, 10:56:26 pm »
I SUPPORT Dioxine. Not only as an ex punk and ever a fan of punk music. First and foremost, I support you, Dioxine, for this great mod. You give my free time that extra "OH, HELL, YEAH!"

AND I AM ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT EVERYONE NORMAL HERE SUPPORTS DIOXINE!
So it's two of us. Plus thousands. Or you plus thousands plus me. You decide.

Punk is not dead! It never was and won't be.

Alex

I'm with you Alex.  There just seem to be one or two people who want the mod made THEIR way and not the way Dioxine  made it.  I also note that the same people have mentioned they edit their saved games to 'make it better' or some such reason.

I myself wasn't happy with the 'weather' and freshness aspect when it was first used, by now I've changed my mind and like the way you have to consider which protection equipment to take on missions, and which gals to take on 'stressful' missions like the X-Prison.

Dioxine, stick to your guns (ahem) and don't listen to the nay-sayers.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2020, 11:03:46 pm by Jimboman »

Offline legionof1

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2561 on: December 09, 2020, 03:48:55 am »
Some of those dirty rats are indeed spotters for the field gun. The highway house is a puzzle about staying out of line of fire of the gun until you can get in range to take it out with your lower tech solutions.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2562 on: December 09, 2020, 03:58:46 am »
To put it clearly: you get spotted, for a number of turns, if you are seen, or hit an unit with "spotter" tag, units with "sniper" tag MAY act on this knowledge and attack you out of LoS for a number of turns (depending on spotter, usually 1-2, but can be more). If the AI will act on this knowledge, however, is anyone's guess. It often fails to. This is basically the same mechanics that vanilla uses for Psi Attacks and Blaster Launchers, but with extra limitations (like the no-LoS accuracy penalty, which many players however do bitch about).

Weather, freshness, etc, at first always enter the game as unpolished experiments. Later they get tweaked in often very subtle ways, or further mechanics make them less irritating (eg. Freshness really took off the edge of Stun and Energy penalties for dangerous weather, as long as your Freshness is high and you don't stay too long).
« Last Edit: December 09, 2020, 04:03:39 am by Dioxine »

Offline Dioxine

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2563 on: December 09, 2020, 10:52:21 am »
The psychos are just ordinary people who got awe-struck by incredible gem that drop into their lap and immediately turned into Gollums. That's the internet for ya - no filter. Highly recommend DILIGAF approach.

No. You don't understand. I mean people who unironically accuse me publicly of being a nazi, a cat murderer, a climate change denier, or are trying to pull some sort of a really underhanded trick.

Offline Nilex

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2564 on: December 10, 2020, 06:51:33 am »
More or less I'm aware how the system works. Would rather like if spotting worked a bit differently but I'm too used to it now. Had to help the guy out though, in my own way. Hate seeing the little guy being bullied by the system so excuse little bluntness on my part.

I see exactly what you mean now. It's all too easy to give advice when I'm not your shoes. Best I can provide is sympathy, and a bug report here and there. It's funny because not even two hours ago I downed a certain humanist ship, the one with the jammer, and then I read your post :D. A bold move for sure. Now I respect you even more. Just wait till the proctologist society hears about you, then you'll be in some really deep shit.