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Author Topic: A thread for little questions  (Read 1055382 times)

Offline Rubber Cannonball

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2145 on: February 08, 2020, 09:31:36 pm »
Ok, I take it disengage is allowed against hunter killers if craft fast enough.  I haven't dealt much with hunter killers except for the ninja seeker one set up in an earlier version.  I had just read Meridian's thread https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,5717.0.html and early on disengage wasn't going to be possible.

Offline Greep

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2146 on: February 08, 2020, 10:18:00 pm »
This is true, although even a shark jetbike will get blown up costing over 1.5 million if it runs into a few of them, so I feel the metagaming is necessary.  But even then, are megapol/wasps not meant to be done before getting a ship a newbie might not know about?  You even start with them in your bootypedia I think, suggesting they're fairly early game. 

Plus I don't think you should feel railroaded into choosing a bounty prize path just for basic interception.  Although there are pretty strong "correct" paths for every customer xD

Either way there's a good temporary solution for me for now, just feel it's in a weird spot atm when hunter killers.

Edit: Guess not regarding bootypedia, I guess they're just shared with a whole lot of interrogations since I always seem to get them early.

Offline Rubber Cannonball

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2147 on: February 08, 2020, 11:46:38 pm »
But even then, are megapol/wasps not meant to be done before getting a ship a newbie might not know about? 

Well it's a progression.  At first just the civilian traffic should be attempted to be shot down.  As the player's interception fleet get larger and better, slightly tougher prey can be attempted.  A player can go a long way just doing the pink site missions.  Shoot downs increase risk of base defense and losing a base, going after landed ships doesn't.  That might be metagaming but it is common vanilla behavior.

I don't know how balanced the hunter killer changes are for this mod as I haven't played the latest version.  But if the choice really comes down to metagaming intercepts with notes on various speeds and trajectories vs intercepts too risky to attempt, I suspect changes will be coming in this area in later versions.  I believe hunter killers were added to make the air game more risky, but not to the point that going after minor faction intercepts becomes unprofitable.  There should be a better strategy than the metagaming route or the wait until hyperwave decoders route.  The strategy might currently exist; we just haven't come across it yet.

Offline Eddie

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2148 on: February 09, 2020, 02:48:07 pm »
Air game progression is fine, actually.
When still in airbus, stay away from any shipping that has a radar circle drawn around it.
When you contact the car thieves, megapol patrols start. It's tied to that research. Now you can get an aircar and an airspeeder. With the aircar you shouldn't try to intercept anything that shoots back, and missiles for the airspeeder are quite expensive. A seagull costs more than the loot you get from a megapol patrol car. But with the airspeeder, you can take a peek at most megapol craft, because it's fast enough to run away. And the megapol interceptor and chaser are quite rare, and it's quite obvious that they are faster than your average patrol car. Megapol craft tend to fly close to or at max speed, so spotting the faster craft is quite easy.
So with an aircar, you still stay away from shippings that have a radar circle, and any seagulls you might have in your airspeeder you will save for jucier, larger shippings.
Bandit flights start in june of the first year, but with them it's the same deal as with megapol.

So you can see, trying to shoot down even the weakest hunter killers will only become actually a good idea once you get better craft. So either codex craft, a shark jetbike, or a piranha airbike. For the jetbike, the rule is: if it's faster than you, it's too dangerous anyway (fighters for example). From everything that's slower you can disengage and run away, so you can take a look before deciding to fight. Airspeeder and piranha airbike can do that as well, to some extend. All you have to do is learn to watch a shipping a bit before you intercept, to get an idea what it's maximum speed is.

So the problem of not knowing what shippings to intercept mostly exists just for the medium fast codex craft. Here the safe option is to just go after megapol and bandits. These are easy to identify by their flight path, they travel from continent to continent like civillians. If you want to do more serious air combat, get a jetbike for recon and fire support. It's not that far away in the techtree.

Bottom line: for hunter killers, higher speed = more dangerous. Pretty simple rule of thumb.


Edit:
Ok, there is one air combat "trap" you can fall into that should be mentioned. The Bandit Mosquito has an avoid bonus of 35 and the Megapol Interceptor a bonus of 30. That's high enough that you might not be able to hit them with a 25mm x2 cannon or 30mm cannon, depending on your craft to hit bonus and pilot skill.
I'm a bit unsure on the math though. Accuracy formula for a target that has no avoid bonus is: (weapon accuracy + craft bonus + pilot bonus)*target size
(target size multiplier is 0.75 for very small and 0.875 for small)
Now the question is where the avoid bonus is subtracted. I would guess it's subtracted before multiplication by the size modifier.
So lets say you fly a Scarab with a 25mm x2 cannon (25% acc) and two quad cannons (15% acc). That is some serious firepower you would think. At 70 firing skill of the pilot, you get a +6 bonus and can *barely* hit a Megapol Interceptor. You will still loose most likely, because you only hit one shot in 100.
If you go with maxxed pilots of 122 firing skill, you get +26 bonus. Vs the Bandit Mosquito, that will still be a gamble of a fight (about 60% win chance).
So these are examples where you would think you have enough firepower, but actually don't. And you can't disengage because you are not fast enough.
The Ninja Seeker with its 40 avoid bonus is the worst, but at least you can easily identify them by their large radar circle.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 06:22:14 pm by Eddie »

Offline Rubber Cannonball

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2149 on: February 09, 2020, 07:38:12 pm »
Well that sounds like a good approach.  Also that is an important point about low accuracy weapons.  They may not score a single hit against small dodgy craft.

Edit: I believe most accuracy and dodge bonuses are additive/subtractive and I think size is multiplicative.  So a low accuracy weapon's DPS can be improved greatly by pilot accuracy bonus whereas pilot accuracy won't matter much for a high accuracy weapon.  Conversely, dodge bonus can make a craft unhittable by a low accuracy weapon and again not matter much for a high accuracy weapon.

Edit2:  There is a nice light 100% accuracy weapon that can be acquired early but you won't find it on a ufo, you'll have to go diving for it.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 08:07:43 pm by Rubber Cannonball »

Offline Greep

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2150 on: February 09, 2020, 11:28:34 pm »
Well, that's definitely workable, but I'm just saying, any new players not reading this thread or doing weird metagaming is just going to either always avoid HKs or just do what jimbo does and reload which feels like things aren't in a good state.  Main issue is you still need to read all this to come to that conclusion (you only know a jetbike will let you survive most of the time if you know that entire chart of ships) and you still need to do some A.I. metagaming to figure out what's bandit/megapol.  It's kinda analogous to if the game didn't show temperature on missions and you had to go to the wiki to read some player made temperature map or just wing it based on geographical knowledge.  Like, that works, but it's definitely not great.

So I'll just read speeds for now which works for me, and just kinda hope I'm safe if a speed ending in 00 matches a max speed of something I see is interceptable
« Last Edit: February 09, 2020, 11:30:56 pm by Greep »

Offline Eddie

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2151 on: February 10, 2020, 12:00:06 am »
Saving and reload is perfectly legit if you are playing for the first time. And after a few encounters you will have learned that civilians, Megapol and bandits have the unique cross continent flight patterns. I wouldn't say this is too metagamy. That is exactly the stuff you would read in a gameguide or know after one playthrough.

You can go even further and deduce from the speed and type of shipping what mission it is on. I look that up in the gamefiles (that is metagaming), but you could get that information just from playing the game. If you wrote down all the speeds of every shipping you saw, you would start to see the patterns. If a couple of nerds startet to do a wiki with that stuff, you would get to exactly the same information (with a lot more work though).

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2152 on: February 10, 2020, 12:27:29 am »
I really can't see how forcing the player to avoid HKs is such a bad idea. I think it's pretty fun.

Besides, sooner or later the player will challenge these HKs.

Offline Jimboman

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2153 on: February 10, 2020, 05:20:58 pm »
sooner or later the player will challenge these HKs.

Which is what I'm now doing.  A real-world day or so after I made my earlier post I got Snakes, and two of those working together (one escorting another) can take down mostly all the smaller HKs, but not the bigger or shielded ships.

Offline Galwail

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2154 on: February 11, 2020, 06:42:46 pm »
What is a good source of optronic parts? I'm in the second year and I have just unlocked the smart magnum and Doom armor. I want to build some, but I'm limited by optronics. Looking into the research tree I can see, that I will be able to buy them later, but that is after quite a bit of research.

Offline JustTheDude/CABSHEP

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2155 on: February 11, 2020, 06:55:52 pm »
What is a good source of optronic parts? I'm in the second year and I have just unlocked the smart magnum and Doom armor. I want to build some, but I'm limited by optronics. Looking into the research tree I can see, that I will be able to buy them later, but that is after quite a bit of research.

I belive that there is an option to buy them off market and it is locked behind some research. Smugglers and something else.

Offline Greep

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2156 on: February 11, 2020, 07:47:13 pm »
Isn't optronics just disassembling personal computers?

Edit: If you open your html bootypedia and look up "Optronics Parts" you can find a more specific answer.  Turns out it's disassembling almost any machinery, although integrated devices give several.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2020, 08:00:39 pm by Greep »

Offline Rubber Cannonball

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2157 on: February 11, 2020, 08:20:55 pm »
I get optronics from dissassembling slave ai, but I'm not playing the latest version so I don't know if that has changed.

Offline Galwail

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2158 on: February 12, 2020, 02:15:44 am »
I feel so dumb. I have hundreds of slave AIs lying around and each of them gives 10 optronics parts. Didn't know this information is in the online bootypedia. Thanks.

Offline teddybbeer

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Re: A thread for little questions
« Reply #2159 on: February 13, 2020, 04:22:20 pm »
Hi.

Made base to Middle-East (between Wraithbane and The Library) and in first month didnt saw single landed UFO. So i also missed Fugitive search orders.. and missed whole Doc X chain by it? Is docX needed for gameplay advancement or can i just skip it? On the other hand its now jul 2602 and there has been 0 base assaults so far so..