Author Topic: Faction Elite Units  (Read 10641 times)

Offline Surrealistik

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Faction Elite Units
« on: July 31, 2016, 08:51:45 pm »
Especially elite, terror inducing units that are introduced in the mid game, and only feature on terror ships, pogroms, very large ships, and hideouts in very small numbers (1-2).

More information and autopsy/interrogation entries are below the stat block of each Google Docs entry.

Church, Alpha Chryssalid: Invisible, highly Psi resistant, acid spitting terror. A hybrid of Celatid and Chryssalid, among other species (with perhaps a bit of Muton and Ethereal), the culmination of Church research into the ideal organism for cost effective evisceration of the heretic: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GQK-BSID0jsuthiUQmC7Sq1mW-JJXQYt6pqcH3GQRP8/edit

Academy, Aether MEC: Sleek, high tech flight capable animu style mecha (hopefully a sprite for this exists). Features an 'aetheric projector' which channels and amplifies the psionic power of the pilot to either discharge a powerful blast identical to the Ethereal's ghost beam, or a telekinetic blast (destroys terrain, deals stun, stamina and TU damage). Ejects a plasma pistol armed Esper when destroyed (along with a smoke screen to provide cover): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sb_hb8Plh1fEvEZV08gGhEO_SAztTN3SvV0-XdChYrM/edit

Guild, Peacekeeper: Massive, heavily armed and armoured ground supremacy battle tank. Used to 'keep the peace' when all else fails. Slow and with sluggish reactions, but accurate and highly deadly. Equipped with the best weapons Guild money can buy, which would be a Blaster Launcher like 'Devastator Cannon' (albeit with dumbfire only) and a heavy Gauss-Autocannon: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P5aUJKGd-LSPsa0eNm7nYKIjmAszUjDdpKi8goZcM98/edit
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 12:45:13 pm by Surrealistik »

Offline Drasnighta

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2016, 09:08:26 pm »
I like the idea about some hefty and dangerous units in the mid game and I'm sure there are some planned as we go through...


But mostly, my brain went:

How can you complain about perceived artificial difficulty, and then want to introduce an Invisible Chryssalid?!

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2016, 09:18:12 pm »
I like the idea about some hefty and dangerous units in the mid game and I'm sure there are some planned as we go through...

But mostly, my brain went:

How can you complain about perceived artificial difficulty, and then want to introduce an Invisible Chryssalid?!

Because that's not fake difficulty, especially given the pending changes that will be made to stealth/invisibility.

Offline Meridian

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2016, 09:46:51 pm »
Because that's not fake difficulty...

LOL, made my day :)

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2016, 10:05:45 pm »
LOL, made my day :)

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty

Not fake difficulty (a colossal PITA, yes).

The player has tools to counter it consistently, and again, once the stealth mechanics get updated we'll have even more.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 10:11:05 pm by Surrealistik »

Offline Drasnighta

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2016, 10:23:09 pm »
You can counter stealth consistently?

Offline Meridian

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2016, 10:28:21 pm »
No need to repeat yourself, I have read that article.

Your new pet is definitely more fake difficulty than a puny Provost... it's even more RNG, to use your own arguments.

And to repeat myself (and others) again, the player has tools to counter e.g. a Provost consistently as well... at least I have, maybe you still need to find them ;)

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2016, 10:38:15 pm »
No need to repeat yourself, I have read that article.

Your new pet is definitely more fake difficulty than a puny Provost... it's even more RNG, to use your own arguments.

And to repeat myself (and others) again, the player has tools to counter e.g. a Provost consistently as well... at least I have, maybe you still need to find them ;)

The only tool I found which was actually reliable was fielding VD trained 55+ Psi Strength units (and even then you still have to worry if the Provost is very close), so basically original X-Com.

Where's the RNG with the new invisibility (which the idea assumed)? It's basically like smoke LoS range reduction vs a single unit (just as it worked in Apocalypse), and apparently will be items that enable you to detect invisible units further out.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2016, 10:55:45 pm »
Interesting ideas... although I have Academy and Guild late units planned already, there is a space for more.

As for Provost and supposed Psi 'fake difficulty' (or specifically, 'difficulty'), I had an Academy Hideout Defense yesterday. I had circa 16 unscreened soldiers (but half of them about 70-80% trained after 10 months of Church Raids, Megascorpion Hunts and Warehouse Wars), no armor to speak of (Scale Mail, Durathread or nothing, a single Grav, a singe Wench), weapons being couple of Ret Plasmas, 3 Hydra Lasers, 1 RPG, the rest armed with flamethrowers, HE-packs, Frag Grenades, one lol-SMG with Acid ammo and Rapiers (which maybe was a mistake... should've risked using Axes, maybe). Davy Jones diff (the second-hardest).

End result? 15 turns total (of which 10 were hunting down a few stragglers in hangars + one esper in severs), No casaulties (several heavy wounded tho), bagged Esper and Provost. Sure I was lucky, the Provost had only a Plasma Pistol and didn't kill anyone despite reaction-firing during being gang-banged by 3 gals with 2 rapiers, 1 acid SMG and 1 Ret plasma, also my plan to assault elevator & hangars through the vents worked miracolously well. I think there was maybe 10 Psi attempts total, of which 2 succeeded in panicking my gals. No MC. And no, no save/loads. Call me a magician?

Offline Meridian

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2016, 10:58:57 pm »
The only tool I found which was actually reliable was fielding VD trained 55+ Psi Strength units (and even then you still have to worry if the Provost is very close), so basically original X-Com.

What about:
1. your own voodoo
2. psi lightning rod
3. or just simple camping, spotting, eliminating and hiding
4. using weapons that don't hurt you with good-enough armor
5. ... I'm sure people will add a few more

And yes, I have tried and used 2/ and 3/ and can confirm they work consistently.
I didn't try 1/ yet as I am not that far in the game.
I will try 4/ at the next opportunity.

Where's the RNG with the new invisibility (which the idea assumed)? It's basically like smoke LoS range reduction vs a single unit (just as it worked in Apocalypse), and apparently will be items that enable you to detect invisible units further out.

You haven't specified what kind of invisibility it is. "Chameleonic carapace that features active camouflage" doesn't exist in OpenXcom, so I have to assume it is the same kind of invisibility as e.g. Catgirls have.... which is RNG in all its beauty, unless you carry some sort of motion scanners on steroids on all soldiers.

EDIT: some other special abilities you describe also don't exist, e.g. zombie which doesn't spawn a unit... or regenerating a fatal wound
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 11:07:51 pm by Meridian »

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2016, 11:06:12 pm »
Quote
Interesting ideas... although I have Academy and Guild late units planned already, there is a space for more.

I thought they fit the 'flavour' and theme of each major faction well. Guild is all about brute force and strength, Academy about finesse, psi and tech, Church about ancient aliums.


As for Provost and supposed Psi 'fake difficulty' (or specifically, 'difficulty'), I had an Academy Hideout Defense yesterday. I had circa 16 unscreened soldiers (but half of them about 70-80% trained after 10 months of Church Raids, Megascorpion Hunts and Warehouse Wars), no armor to speak of (Scale Mail, Durathread or nothing, a single Grav, a singe Wench), weapons being couple of Ret Plasmas, 3 Hydra Lasers, 1 RPG, the rest armed with flamethrowers, HE-packs, Frag Grenades, one lol-SMG with Acid ammo and Rapiers (which maybe was a mistake... should've risked using Axes, maybe). Davy Jones diff (the second-hardest).

End result? 15 turns total (of which 10 were hunting down a few stragglers in hangars + one esper in severs), No casaulties (several heavy wounded tho), bagged Esper and Provost. Sure I was lucky, the Provost had only a Plasma Pistol and didn't kill anyone despite reaction-firing during being gang-banged by 3 gals with 2 rapiers, 1 acid SMG and 1 Ret plasma, also my plan to assault elevator & hangars through the vents worked miracolously well. I think there was maybe 10 Psi attempts total, of which 2 succeeded in panicking my gals. No MC. And no, no save/loads. Call me a magician?

I call you lucky, just like I was lucky not to get MC/Panic fucked when I successfully defended against a _Cruiser_ with 6 straight up rookie gals in Scale with Gauss Muskets (actually, I still got fucked, but not when it mattered most).


@ Meridian:

#1: Requires high strength, trained Psi units (so what I just said).
#2: Not reliable. They don't always target the rod, and when they do, they quickly subvert it and move on to the next target (and you have to baby sit the rod or isolate it far, far away from anything resembling a weapon or you risk it doing some pretty bad stuff).
#3: That's not a 'reliable counter', that's the standard MO that gets disrupted by the RNG. It will win you the war, but it won't stop you from getting randomly fucked.
#4: Not possible vs ships that feature Espers/Provosts, or hell pretty much any Psi unit (except maybe late game when you're dripping in heavy armour).
#5: Nothing I can't refute.

As for the invisibility, I'll update the stat block.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 11:09:28 pm by Surrealistik »

Offline Meridian

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2016, 11:10:39 pm »
I believe you that you don't believe me.

I can however demonstrate that it works in 10 out of 10 cases. Don't give up after first try, it requires a bit of skill... and practice.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2016, 11:13:12 pm »
I believe you that you don't believe me.

I can however demonstrate that it works in 10 out of 10 cases. Don't give up after first try, it requires a bit of skill... and practice.

Don't believe you about what?

Nothing of what you said has a 100% success rate. I know about all of the counters, I used all of the counters to damage control up until the point where I could just brute force my way past caring about Psi (outside of close proximity to a Provost). Ultimately you still get randomfucked.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2016, 11:15:06 pm »
I call you lucky, just like I was lucky not to get MC/Panic fucked when I successfully defended against a _Cruiser_ with 6 straight up rookie gals in Scale with Gauss Muskets (actually, I still got fucked, but not when it mattered most).

This is a consistent result, however, never before I have played real-game defense (not a lab test) on this new 5 level map, and never before I was so bold yet came out so little damaged. However I can only say, while sewers are a chore (I had no Aye-Phones!) I absolutely love the vents and assault options they give you, so I think it all balances itself out.

So where it is coming from? Here, you admit that Psi didn't help the enemies. Although conservative, defensive play is naturally the best way to 'get fucked' by psi. That's why psi exists in the game in the first place (along with the BLasters) - to fuck up the most cheesy/effective (and boring) strategy there is in this game (which is defensive play, LoS abuse and map border hugging).

EDIT: Oh rigth, Cruiser or no Cruiser, all Hideout Defences are the same. Assaulting ships vary but the assault party is always rolled from the same table.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 11:21:23 pm by Dioxine »

Offline Meridian

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2016, 11:18:21 pm »
Don't believe you about what?

Nothing of what you said has a 100% success rate. I know about all of the counters, I used all of the counters to damage control up until the point where I could just brute force my way past caring about Psi (outside of close proximity to a Provost). Ultimately you still get randomfucked.

Don't believe me that those options I gave you work... sorry if my English is too broken.

OK, so how do you explain the fact that I didn't get randomfucked even a single time yet? Is RNG always rolling in my favour? Is that what you are trying to tell me?