OpenXcom Forum
Modding => Released Mods => XPiratez => Topic started by: Surrealistik on July 31, 2016, 08:51:45 pm
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Especially elite, terror inducing units that are introduced in the mid game, and only feature on terror ships, pogroms, very large ships, and hideouts in very small numbers (1-2).
More information and autopsy/interrogation entries are below the stat block of each Google Docs entry.
Church, Alpha Chryssalid: Invisible, highly Psi resistant, acid spitting terror. A hybrid of Celatid and Chryssalid, among other species (with perhaps a bit of Muton and Ethereal), the culmination of Church research into the ideal organism for cost effective evisceration of the heretic: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GQK-BSID0jsuthiUQmC7Sq1mW-JJXQYt6pqcH3GQRP8/edit
Academy, Aether MEC: Sleek, high tech flight capable animu style mecha (hopefully a sprite for this exists). Features an 'aetheric projector' which channels and amplifies the psionic power of the pilot to either discharge a powerful blast identical to the Ethereal's ghost beam, or a telekinetic blast (destroys terrain, deals stun, stamina and TU damage). Ejects a plasma pistol armed Esper when destroyed (along with a smoke screen to provide cover): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sb_hb8Plh1fEvEZV08gGhEO_SAztTN3SvV0-XdChYrM/edit
Guild, Peacekeeper: Massive, heavily armed and armoured ground supremacy battle tank. Used to 'keep the peace' when all else fails. Slow and with sluggish reactions, but accurate and highly deadly. Equipped with the best weapons Guild money can buy, which would be a Blaster Launcher like 'Devastator Cannon' (albeit with dumbfire only) and a heavy Gauss-Autocannon: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P5aUJKGd-LSPsa0eNm7nYKIjmAszUjDdpKi8goZcM98/edit
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I like the idea about some hefty and dangerous units in the mid game and I'm sure there are some planned as we go through...
But mostly, my brain went:
How can you complain about perceived artificial difficulty, and then want to introduce an Invisible Chryssalid?!
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I like the idea about some hefty and dangerous units in the mid game and I'm sure there are some planned as we go through...
But mostly, my brain went:
How can you complain about perceived artificial difficulty, and then want to introduce an Invisible Chryssalid?!
Because that's not fake difficulty, especially given the pending changes that will be made to stealth/invisibility.
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Because that's not fake difficulty...
LOL, made my day :)
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LOL, made my day :)
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty
Not fake difficulty (a colossal PITA, yes).
The player has tools to counter it consistently, and again, once the stealth mechanics get updated we'll have even more.
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You can counter stealth consistently?
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No need to repeat yourself, I have read that article.
Your new pet is definitely more fake difficulty than a puny Provost... it's even more RNG, to use your own arguments.
And to repeat myself (and others) again, the player has tools to counter e.g. a Provost consistently as well... at least I have, maybe you still need to find them ;)
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No need to repeat yourself, I have read that article.
Your new pet is definitely more fake difficulty than a puny Provost... it's even more RNG, to use your own arguments.
And to repeat myself (and others) again, the player has tools to counter e.g. a Provost consistently as well... at least I have, maybe you still need to find them ;)
The only tool I found which was actually reliable was fielding VD trained 55+ Psi Strength units (and even then you still have to worry if the Provost is very close), so basically original X-Com.
Where's the RNG with the new invisibility (which the idea assumed)? It's basically like smoke LoS range reduction vs a single unit (just as it worked in Apocalypse), and apparently will be items that enable you to detect invisible units further out.
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Interesting ideas... although I have Academy and Guild late units planned already, there is a space for more.
As for Provost and supposed Psi 'fake difficulty' (or specifically, 'difficulty'), I had an Academy Hideout Defense yesterday. I had circa 16 unscreened soldiers (but half of them about 70-80% trained after 10 months of Church Raids, Megascorpion Hunts and Warehouse Wars), no armor to speak of (Scale Mail, Durathread or nothing, a single Grav, a singe Wench), weapons being couple of Ret Plasmas, 3 Hydra Lasers, 1 RPG, the rest armed with flamethrowers, HE-packs, Frag Grenades, one lol-SMG with Acid ammo and Rapiers (which maybe was a mistake... should've risked using Axes, maybe). Davy Jones diff (the second-hardest).
End result? 15 turns total (of which 10 were hunting down a few stragglers in hangars + one esper in severs), No casaulties (several heavy wounded tho), bagged Esper and Provost. Sure I was lucky, the Provost had only a Plasma Pistol and didn't kill anyone despite reaction-firing during being gang-banged by 3 gals with 2 rapiers, 1 acid SMG and 1 Ret plasma, also my plan to assault elevator & hangars through the vents worked miracolously well. I think there was maybe 10 Psi attempts total, of which 2 succeeded in panicking my gals. No MC. And no, no save/loads. Call me a magician?
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The only tool I found which was actually reliable was fielding VD trained 55+ Psi Strength units (and even then you still have to worry if the Provost is very close), so basically original X-Com.
What about:
1. your own voodoo
2. psi lightning rod
3. or just simple camping, spotting, eliminating and hiding
4. using weapons that don't hurt you with good-enough armor
5. ... I'm sure people will add a few more
And yes, I have tried and used 2/ and 3/ and can confirm they work consistently.
I didn't try 1/ yet as I am not that far in the game.
I will try 4/ at the next opportunity.
Where's the RNG with the new invisibility (which the idea assumed)? It's basically like smoke LoS range reduction vs a single unit (just as it worked in Apocalypse), and apparently will be items that enable you to detect invisible units further out.
You haven't specified what kind of invisibility it is. "Chameleonic carapace that features active camouflage" doesn't exist in OpenXcom, so I have to assume it is the same kind of invisibility as e.g. Catgirls have.... which is RNG in all its beauty, unless you carry some sort of motion scanners on steroids on all soldiers.
EDIT: some other special abilities you describe also don't exist, e.g. zombie which doesn't spawn a unit... or regenerating a fatal wound
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Interesting ideas... although I have Academy and Guild late units planned already, there is a space for more.
I thought they fit the 'flavour' and theme of each major faction well. Guild is all about brute force and strength, Academy about finesse, psi and tech, Church about ancient aliums (https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Ancient-Aliens.jpg).
As for Provost and supposed Psi 'fake difficulty' (or specifically, 'difficulty'), I had an Academy Hideout Defense yesterday. I had circa 16 unscreened soldiers (but half of them about 70-80% trained after 10 months of Church Raids, Megascorpion Hunts and Warehouse Wars), no armor to speak of (Scale Mail, Durathread or nothing, a single Grav, a singe Wench), weapons being couple of Ret Plasmas, 3 Hydra Lasers, 1 RPG, the rest armed with flamethrowers, HE-packs, Frag Grenades, one lol-SMG with Acid ammo and Rapiers (which maybe was a mistake... should've risked using Axes, maybe). Davy Jones diff (the second-hardest).
End result? 15 turns total (of which 10 were hunting down a few stragglers in hangars + one esper in severs), No casaulties (several heavy wounded tho), bagged Esper and Provost. Sure I was lucky, the Provost had only a Plasma Pistol and didn't kill anyone despite reaction-firing during being gang-banged by 3 gals with 2 rapiers, 1 acid SMG and 1 Ret plasma, also my plan to assault elevator & hangars through the vents worked miracolously well. I think there was maybe 10 Psi attempts total, of which 2 succeeded in panicking my gals. No MC. And no, no save/loads. Call me a magician?
I call you lucky, just like I was lucky not to get MC/Panic fucked when I successfully defended against a _Cruiser_ with 6 straight up rookie gals in Scale with Gauss Muskets (actually, I still got fucked, but not when it mattered most).
@ Meridian:
#1: Requires high strength, trained Psi units (so what I just said).
#2: Not reliable. They don't always target the rod, and when they do, they quickly subvert it and move on to the next target (and you have to baby sit the rod or isolate it far, far away from anything resembling a weapon or you risk it doing some pretty bad stuff).
#3: That's not a 'reliable counter', that's the standard MO that gets disrupted by the RNG. It will win you the war, but it won't stop you from getting randomly fucked.
#4: Not possible vs ships that feature Espers/Provosts, or hell pretty much any Psi unit (except maybe late game when you're dripping in heavy armour).
#5: Nothing I can't refute.
As for the invisibility, I'll update the stat block.
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I believe you that you don't believe me.
I can however demonstrate that it works in 10 out of 10 cases. Don't give up after first try, it requires a bit of skill... and practice.
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I believe you that you don't believe me.
I can however demonstrate that it works in 10 out of 10 cases. Don't give up after first try, it requires a bit of skill... and practice.
Don't believe you about what?
Nothing of what you said has a 100% success rate. I know about all of the counters, I used all of the counters to damage control up until the point where I could just brute force my way past caring about Psi (outside of close proximity to a Provost). Ultimately you still get randomfucked.
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I call you lucky, just like I was lucky not to get MC/Panic fucked when I successfully defended against a _Cruiser_ with 6 straight up rookie gals in Scale with Gauss Muskets (actually, I still got fucked, but not when it mattered most).
This is a consistent result, however, never before I have played real-game defense (not a lab test) on this new 5 level map, and never before I was so bold yet came out so little damaged. However I can only say, while sewers are a chore (I had no Aye-Phones!) I absolutely love the vents and assault options they give you, so I think it all balances itself out.
So where it is coming from? Here, you admit that Psi didn't help the enemies. Although conservative, defensive play is naturally the best way to 'get fucked' by psi. That's why psi exists in the game in the first place (along with the BLasters) - to fuck up the most cheesy/effective (and boring) strategy there is in this game (which is defensive play, LoS abuse and map border hugging).
EDIT: Oh rigth, Cruiser or no Cruiser, all Hideout Defences are the same. Assaulting ships vary but the assault party is always rolled from the same table.
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Don't believe you about what?
Nothing of what you said has a 100% success rate. I know about all of the counters, I used all of the counters to damage control up until the point where I could just brute force my way past caring about Psi (outside of close proximity to a Provost). Ultimately you still get randomfucked.
Don't believe me that those options I gave you work... sorry if my English is too broken.
OK, so how do you explain the fact that I didn't get randomfucked even a single time yet? Is RNG always rolling in my favour? Is that what you are trying to tell me?
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Don't believe me that those options I gave you work... sorry if my English is too broken.
OK, so how do you explain the fact that I didn't get randomfucked even a single time yet? Is RNG always rolling in my favour? Is that what you are trying to tell me?
What difficulty are you playing on? And I definitely don't believe you that not once have you never lost a unit or got a unit badly injured by Psi RNG; the answers to Psi up until your gals become the mental juggernaut bitch and hit them with their own pimp (https://youtu.be/kNYDOKt7DkM?t=185) are not foolproof (#1 aside which requires gals with strong VD).
@ Dioxine: Psi sometimes doesn't help the enemies; it's random which is precisely why it's so frustrating. You got lucky when it mattered, just like I got lucky when it mattered, so are you consistently replicating this base defense under those conditions?
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I'll add 2 more general guides:
#6 Spread up in defence, concentrate only for assault.
#7 Kill them fast. It keeps most of them panicking - even if it doesn't affect Provost and Espers, at least the rest of the bunch is less dangerous. Also early Esper kill = less trouble later on.
In general, you cannot allow them to make you their bitch - you need to do the opposite :)
Also yes, I consistently play Hideout Defense aggressively and have yet to lose one. I came close to losing against Star Gods, tho - had to drag it out to almost 50 turns, like a bitch :) But this doesn't help anyone who chooses different tactics.
Also - how it is so that Psi can work against the AI? Care to elaborate? Your psi is nowhere near as powerful as theirs.
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What difficulty are you playing on? And I definitely don't believe you that not once have you never lost a unit or got a unit badly injured by Psi RNG; the answers to Psi up until your gals become the mental juggernaut bitch and hit them with their own pimp (https://youtu.be/kNYDOKt7DkM?t=185) are not foolproof (#1 aside which requires gals with strong VD).
Playing on superhuman, or whatever it is called in piratez.
Of course I have lost some units... if I didn't lose any units I would stop playing this game!!! I am saying I didn't get randomfucked, not that piratez is the same challenge as tic-tac-toe.
Are you trying to tell me you will consistently not lose any units to your alpha chryssalids?? Don't be ridiculous.
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I'll add 2 more general guides:
#6 Spread up in defence, concentrate only for assault.
#7 Kill them fast. It keeps most of them panicking - even if it doesn't affect Provost and Espers, at least the rest of the bunch is less dangerous. Also early Esper kill = less trouble later on.
In general, you cannot allow them to make you their bitch - you need to do the opposite :)
We've been over this several times, including those specific 'counters', so I'm not interested in rehashing the same counterpoints.
Winning isn't the problem, it's suffering random casualties randomly.
Also yes, I consistently play Hideout Defense aggressively and have yet to lose one. I came close to losing against Star Gods, tho - had to drag it out to almost 50 turns, like a bitch :) But this doesn't help anyone who chooses different tactics.
Hideout Defenses are _easy_ to win if you're prepared, Psi or not. I've yet to experience the full power of the Star Gods though.
Also - how it is so that Psi can work against the AI? Care to elaborate? Your psi is nowhere near as powerful as theirs.
I don't bother with VooDoo against the Provost/Esper, I possess their bodyguards and tell them to execute Order 66 (https://youtu.be/tCuUIkEtJjo?t=102) so at last the Jedi are no more.
It feels like cheating though, so I will probably stop using it and opt to keep my involvement with the Force at a wand slinging Harry Potter level.
@ Meridian: I'll lose units to those Chryssalids, but only because I made an explicit mistake, not because a dice roll randomly decided someone should die.
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@ Meridian: I'll lose units to those Chryssalids, but only because I made an explicit mistake, not because a dice roll randomly decided someone should die.
You don't even believe that yourself :)
Maybe we can discuss this over beer some day, right now I see no point to continue discussing. Too much bias.
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You don't even believe that yourself :)
Maybe we can discuss this over beer some day, right now I see no point to continue discussing. Too much bias.
Again, where is the RNG vs a melee unit that you have to be closer to see, while you have items to specifically counter invisibility (again, per the new invisibility that is to be implemented), vs what is a literal dice roll that doesn't respect LoS?
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Again, where is the RNG vs a melee unit that you have to be closer to see, while you have items to specifically counter invisibility (again, per the new invisibility that is to be implemented), vs what is a literal dice roll that doesn't respect LoS?
OK, forget the whole invisibility.
What about just plain old vanilla Chryssalid staring at your Skyranger's ramp on turn 1... (with sticks and stones in your hands; as per original argument, i.e. no supergirls and no late game)... it's RNG who decides if he's just gonna walk away or randomfuck your whole squad.
Btw. what about a proof?
Just upload here a saved game (either mission beginning or better just before the mission starts), where they randomfucked you... and I will upload a video to youtube showing you how not to get randomfucked in that same mission.
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Well, to be honest that is not a perfect analogy as melee threats are much easier to deal in X-piratez as there's one thing you have right from the start - hammertime. Get a few strong gals, give them hammers and just rush them. You probably will lose a few of them, but, if you can actually get some hits in, the likelihood is high that not only will your target be down for the count, they will also probably not die so you're gonna poach yourself a high-tech prisoner. (very nice against Mechtoids, actually I don't even think there is any tactic better against them outside of late game)
Of course it's another thing if your target was a Chryssalid that not only is lucky not to fall over in one hit, but also counterattacks and zombifies your gal. It might turn into a vicious cycle.
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OK, forget the whole invisibility.
What about just plain old vanilla Chryssalid staring at your Skyranger's ramp on turn 1... (with sticks and stones in your hands; as per original argument, i.e. no supergirls and no late game)... it's RNG who decides if he's just gonna walk away or randomfuck your whole squad.
Btw. what about a proof?
Just upload here a saved game (either mission beginning or better just before the mission starts), where they randomfucked you... and I will upload a video to youtube showing you how not to get randomfucked in that same mission.
Playing on superhuman, or whatever it is called in piratez.
Of course I have lost some units... if I didn't lose any units I would stop playing this game!!! I am saying I didn't get randomfucked, not that piratez is the same challenge as tic-tac-toe.
Are you trying to tell me you will consistently not lose any units to your alpha chryssalids?? Don't be ridiculous.
Did you lose units due to Psi RNG? That's called getting randomfucked.
Randomfucked is not losing a mission, or losing a campaign because of psi RNG, it's about getting randomly fucked, whatever form that might take, even after you've taken all the necessary precautions. Hell man, Dioxide has basically straight up acknowledged that this is a thing.
As for Chryssalids in that situation, there are answers to said RNG. Do you have an alternate exit to kill it from? Is there anyone else facing the ramp that would make killing the thing directly untenable? Ultimately, if you're in a mission where you're clearly in over your head, and you can't do it Capt'n cause you don't have the power and there are no answers that don't carry undue risk, the proper response is to leave, which sucks, but that kind of macro level RNG at least doesn't cost you anything outside of a Pogrom.
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This recurring random difficulty argument is getting stale already... Sure Psi can mess you up and it happens "randomly", but the AI moving to the right place to kill you is also random, the AI spawning at the right place to mess you up when you disembark is random.
You can take measures to lessen the likelihood of the AI walking to the right place to kill you, and you can take steps to reduce the likelihood of psi messing you up, like arming recurring targets more lightly, or isolating them.
Much like you can favor a certain playstyle to reduce the chances of getting "random" owned by shooting (play in smoke, always move in a certain way to maximize mutual surprise, camp&snipe), you can also adapt your playstyle to minimize the odds of psi randomly messing you up. Being more aggressive, adapting the spread of your gals and your weapons to the situation all helps with psi.
The easiest way to make sure you won't kill yourself when MC'd or panicked is to use poison gas ammo and armors immune to smoke damage. Then with stun gas to take captives and poison gas to kill the troopers very efficiently, you're only left with the few enemies that are immune to smoke (probably only the provost? Espers aren't immune. Cyberdiscs are probably immune, but flamethrowers make cyberdiscs a joke, while they aren't great against gals, especially indoors since it has no range). Then the only chance of losing a soldier is if it is MC'd and the AI walks it past the frontline to a place where you can't save it, which is more due to bad planning on your part than anything.
Can you loose soldiers occasionally to Psi? Yeah, sure, but it's far from common. I lose much fewer gals to Psi than to shooting, or a failed melee rush. If you're complaining about Psi and haven't met star gods yet, good luck. And good luck to your computer, you'll probably smash it in frustration.
Vanilla Psi is terrible, but Piratez has gone very far and made it much more manageable. Hopefully this topic won't come up all the time..
As for the original ideas: More variations, especially in late game, would be nice.
I consider an invisible chryssalid to be much more "obnoxious difficulty" than Psi. It will randomly mess me up here or there depending on where it spawned, or will turn the game in a "scan every other step just in case" game, which is not something I consider enjoyable. Star Gods/Cat girls and their funky invisibility already kind of push it, but they're not fully invisible and are either the end game enemy, or very soft.
The academy mecha sounds cool.
The guild superheavy tank sounds bad, just cranking up armor and damage doesn't make a unit very interesting to me. High armor means you need your weapons to roll higher to do damage and I despise having to spam units with the best guns I have and just getting zeros, then the next time killing another in 3 shots that happened to roll high. Medium armors, good resists and lots of HPs is the way to go as far as I am concerned. You get durability without the randomness of outcomes when tackling one.
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Much like you can favor a certain playstyle to reduce the chances of getting "random" owned by shooting (play in smoke, always move in a certain way to maximize mutual surprise, camp&snipe), you can also adapt your playstyle to minimize the odds of psi randomly messing you up. Being more aggressive, adapting the spread of your gals and your weapons to the situation all helps with psi.
The easiest way to make sure you won't kill yourself when MC'd or panicked is to use poison gas ammo and armors immune to smoke damage. Then with stun gas to take captives and poison gas to kill the troopers very efficiently, you're only left with the few enemies that are immune to smoke (probably only the provost? Espers aren't immune. Cyberdiscs are probably immune, but flamethrowers make cyberdiscs a joke, while they aren't great against gals, especially indoors since it has no range). Then the only chance of losing a soldier is if it is MC'd and the AI walks it past the frontline to a place where you can't save it, which is more due to bad planning on your part than anything.
Didn't have poison gas ammo + choke immune armours (nor did I know such things existed; blind playthrough) before I tackled the problem directly by minting Psi Juggernauts.
Also, 80-100 TUs + 100 or more Energy means the AI can easily Piper your soldiers to oblivion almost regardless of where you put them.
Can you loose soldiers occasionally to Psi? Yeah, sure, but it's far from common. I lose much fewer gals to Psi than to shooting, or a failed melee rush. If you're complaining about Psi and haven't met star gods yet, good luck. And good luck to your computer, you'll probably smash it in frustration.
MC/Panic was my leading cause of casualties (well) beyond anything else. I rarely lose troops to shooting (scout + smoke/squadsight sniping + indirect fire), and don't really go for melee rushes unless I'm at least 95% certain I can get away with it without meaningful retaliation.
I consider an invisible chryssalid to be much more "obnoxious difficulty" than Psi. It will randomly mess me up here or there depending on where it spawned, or will turn the game in a "scan every other step just in case" game, which is not something I consider enjoyable. Star Gods/Cat girls and their funky invisibility already kind of push it, but they're not fully invisible and are either the end game enemy, or very soft.
As repeatedly mentioned, the suggestion assumes 'next gen' invisibility, where like X-Com Apocalypse, cloaking only means you have to get closer to actually see the unit, not the silly 'can only be seen from certain angles/diagonals' that exists currently. Further, there will apparently be items that allows you to see such units at further distances.
Lastly, I proposed that they do not show up in significant numbers (specifically having mentioned only 1-2 show up by the mid game on missions where they appear) until the end game per the Star Gods.
The guild superheavy tank sounds bad, just cranking up armor and damage doesn't make a unit very interesting to me. High armor means you need your weapons to roll higher to do damage and I despise having to spam units with the best guns I have and just getting zeros, then the next time killing another in 3 shots that happened to roll high. Medium armors, good resists and lots of HPs is the way to go as far as I am concerned. You get durability without the randomness of outcomes when tackling one.
Or use Lascannons. Basically I want to force the player to outmaneuver the tank, exploiting its weak armour facings and las weakness; the specific numbers might benefit from some tweaking, particularly the side armour, but I think the basic concept is sound.
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Still having it invisible like that would just not be fun. There probably be little way to counterplay that because Aye Phones don't have unlimited range, and if you can counterplay them with parrots and other expendable units there's not that much of a point to invisibility anyway.
Having them just spit is okay on it's own.
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Still having it invisible like that would just not be fun. There probably be little way to counterplay that because Aye Phones don't have unlimited range, and if you can counterplay them with parrots and other expendable units there's not that much of a point to invisibility anyway.
Having them just spit is okay on it's own.
The countermeasure items actually allow you to see 'invisible' units further away so far as I know; not to the extent that you can see them at normal distances or the advantages of invisibility are completely obviated, but enough that it matters and helps you avoid making poor movements.
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Since you're a quote cutter...
Didn't have poison gas ammo + choke immune armours (nor did I know such things existed; blind playthrough) before I tackled the problem directly by minting Psi Juggernauts.
Well, that's one reason you're having issues with Psi. You are not meant to be able to tackle everything at every time in Piratez. Sounds like you didn't have the right tools.
MC/Panic was my leading cause of casualties beyond anything else. I rarely lose troops to shooting (scout + smoke/squadsight sniping + indirect fire), and don't really go for melee rushes unless I'm at least 95% certain I can get away with it without meaningful retaliation.
So you use exactly the game style that Psi is supposed to counteract, as many of us find it gamey and boring. The AI has no way to tackle well a proper scout+sniper tactic, which has been the established way of winning in XCom, even with starting gear. As far as I know, Piratez intends to change the required gameplay and favor something more aggressive. Maybe it's not the mod for you? There are plenty of other mods that support that as much as vanilla.
As repeatedly mentioned, the suggestion assumes 'next gen' invisibility, where like X-Com Apocalypse, cloaking only means you have to get closer to actually see the unit, not the silly 'can only be seen from certain angles/diagonals' that exists currently. Further, there will apparently be items that allows you to see such units at further distances.
Lastly, I proposed that they do not show up in significant numbers (specifically having mentioned only 1-2 show up by the mid game on missions where they appear) until the end game per the Star Gods.
Well, that really doesn't change much. The potential of a single invisible chryssalid is potential for a big FU if you don't scan all the time, so you scan all the time. You kill one? Well maybe there's two, so you scan all the time. You kill two? Well.. maybe you can stop scanning. How did you know there were going to be only two? Oh, of course, foreknowledge. Unless it's something like 10 tiles, being able to see it at more than a tile doesn't really help. Running into a chryssalid unexpected is no fun (but fair with the normal one, since it has to compensate needing to be in melee range). The invisibility adds to the odds, and just further favors the boring slow movement, scanning, smoking and sniping gameplay.
Or use Lascannons. Basically I want to force the player to outmaneuver the tank, exploiting its weak armour facings and las weakness; the specific numbers might benefit from some tweaking, particularly the side armour, but I think the basic concept is sound.
A unit with a "directional shield" that you need to flank could be interesting. But generally flanking is easy to achieve with melee and that's the chief way to take out armor, along with throwing explosives which target under armor. Requiring a specific weapon (type) is also unfortunate as it reduces choices and options.
It's interesting, and I trust Dioxine to implement fun and challenging units.
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#1: I tackled it regardless. I'm not going to let my frustrations with a bullshit RNG based mechanic win.
#2: Sniping and artillery are gamey? Boring is probably true, but if you know of a better way to tackle I/I, I'd like to hear it. As is no other approaches seem to work nearly as well, regardless of intent.
#3: It changes everything, because the proposed counters offered alongside the changes to invisibility increase your detection range such that finding the Chryssalids isn't nearly as tedious and miserable as Aye-Phoning your way around the map. I believe the default detection range for invisible units was said to be 3 tiles; the scanner items/armours or whatever could increase that to pretty much any range; I expect that in the final calculus they will help immensely in helping to counter invisibility without completely obviating the mechanic's tactical benefits.
#4: Like I said, it's a question of tweaking the numbers really (resistances/health/armour values); I'm more interested in the concept of a giant ass heavy battle tank that needs to be flanked and outmaneuvered or it will fuck you up regardless of your tech/toys while being impervious to your normal countermeasures. There's no reason that can't be implemented well.
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Did you lose units due to Psi RNG? That's called getting randomfucked.
No, I didn't lose due to "Psi RNG"... I lost due to Psi (and a tactical or situational mistake).
It is possible to calculate EXACTLY, which unit(s) can be targeted by alien Psi (and in which order) at the end of each turn by using pen and paper... there is NOTHING random about it, it is a deterministic algorithm. Read the source code, if you don't believe me.
What's random is the power of the attack... which is the same as when they shoot at you. Do you say you lost because of "Accuracy RNG" or "Damage RNG" when they kill you with heavy plasma?
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No, I didn't lose due to "Psi RNG"... I lost due to Psi (and a tactical or situational mistake).
Distinction without a difference.
t is possible to calculate EXACTLY, which unit(s) can be targeted by alien Psi (and in which order) at the end of each turn by using pen and paper... there is NOTHING random about it, it is a deterministic algorithm. Read the source code, if you don't believe me.
I'm sure it is if you know exactly who they've seen, and track it meticulously.
That's random is the power of the attack... which is the same as when they shoot at you. Do you say you lost because of "Accuracy RNG" or "Damage RNG" when they kill you with heavy plasma?
I generally don't get shot at, or put myself in a position to be shot at. If you are being shot at, you have already failed and committed an egregious mistake (unless you're robocopping).
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You know, you're a hopeless case. I pity you.
I generally don't get shot at, or put myself in a position to be shot at. If you are being shot at, you have already failed and committed an egregious mistake (unless you're robocopping).
I generally don't get mindcontrolled, or put myself in a position to be mindcontrolled. If you are being mindcontrolled, you have already failed and committed an egregious mistake (unless you're robocopping).
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I generally don't get mindcontrolled, or put myself in a position to be mindcontrolled. If you are being mindcontrolled, you have already failed and committed an egregious mistake (unless you're robocopping).
Good luck with that before you get a roster of 55+ VD STR units; you'll need it.
Look mate, you're not going to convince me that a mechanic whose success is predicated on random chance, doesn't respect LoS and which has no truly reliable counter per Dioxide's own admission until after you've got your own pimped out Psi or apparently a full set of poison gas weaponry and poison gas immunity armour is 'fair' or 'good design'. It's just not happening, I'm sorry. At best it's a bad kludge to compensate for exploitable AI.
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Good luck with that before you get a roster of 55+ VD STR units; you'll need it.
Look mate, you're not going to convince me that a mechanic whose success is predicated on random chance, doesn't respect LoS and which has no truly reliable counter per Dioxide's own admission until after you've got your own pimped out Psi or apparently a full set of poison gas weaponry and poison gas immunity armour is 'fair' or 'good design'. It's just not happening, I'm sorry.
I don't need luck, I know how to play this game. And the rest is entertainment.
No need to be sorry, I already realized you can't be helped. I am just amazed how you ignore facts I tried to explain to you. I just told you that there is nothing random about the psi targeting mechanic, it's 100% deterministic (a provable fact)... and one post later you write "a mechanic whose success is predicated on random chance"? There is no reliable (100%) counter to most of things in the game, isn't 98% enough? We've given you 7 options how to counter psi with such success rate. I have even offered you to show you how it is done if you give me a save... I can't do more than that mate. I'm sorry.
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I don't need luck, I know how to play this game. And the rest is entertainment.
No need to be sorry, I already realized you can't be helped. I am just amazed how you ignore facts I tried to explain to you. I just told you that there is nothing random about the psi targeting mechanic, it's 100% deterministic (a provable fact)... and one post later you write "a mechanic whose success is predicated on random chance"? There is no reliable (100%) counter to most of things in the game, isn't 98% enough? We've given you 7 options how to counter psi with such success rate. I have even offered you to show you how it is done if you give me a save... I can't do more than that mate. I'm sorry.
It's 100% deterministic in terms of _targeting_ if you actually track with perfect precision who is spotted, and who is not, and the exact distances to the soldiers they've spotted, etc. Tell me Meridian, do you track this information with such exacting detail every mission? Every other mission? At all? Is this remotely feasible? In practice you won't know who gets targeted until it happens, and who gets targeted can change depending on relative distances, and whether they get subverted, etc...
The counters that do exist outside of effectively shutting Psi down as described earlier are not 98% reliable either (dat arbitrary number) and I've already shown you/Dioxide the flaws with each of them, while also employing them in my games to minimize the fallout. You mistake me for someone who doesn't know how to deal with Psi, and you are simply wrong. I know how to deal with this bullshit, and I do, and I win regardless of the occasional trooper that ends up eating it because the RNG gods decided it was her day to die, and her day to go streaking with her 90 TUs and 100 Energy in an inconvenient direction; the problem is I still get fucked regardless by a shit mechanic that I am powerless to truly stop, and that no amount of skill serves as complete proof against, until I got my psi-juggernauts.
You can go on pretending a bad kludge to compensate for bad AI is more than that by all means, but you're only fooling yourself.
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It's 100% deterministic in terms of _targeting_ if you actually track with perfect precision who is spotted, and who is not, and the exact distances to the soldiers they've spotted, etc. Tell me Meridian, do you track this information with such exacting detail every mission? Every other mission? At all? Is this remotely feasible? In practice you won't know who gets targeted until it happens, and who gets targeted can change depending on relative distances, and whether they get subverted, etc...
Sometimes I track it, but only as side information, and not very accurately. Once you learn how to use lightning rods, how to spot, kill and/or hide/disarm... you won't need this tracking anymore, since it becomes obvious who will get targeted; if anyone at all.
You mistake me for someone who doesn't know how to deal with Psi, and you are simply wrong.
I think you mistake yourself for someone who knows how to deal with Psi.
You obviously have a lot of experience with the game, but you are so incredibly biased against Psi, that you're incapable of accepting anything else than your dogma.
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Sometimes I track it, but only as side information, and not very accurately. Once you learn how to use lightning rods, how to spot, kill and/or hide/disarm... you won't need this tracking anymore, since it becomes obvious who will get targeted; if anyone at all.
I use lightning rods and it's heuristic at best.
Why? Because Psi scales with distance, and relative distances change. Because the lightning rod gets MCed and then they switch to an unexpected new target, and surprise surprise, sometimes that target gets MCed (or hell, even panicked) and things go to shit.
I think you mistake yourself for someone who knows how to deal with Psi.
You obviously have a lot of experience with the game, but you are so incredibly biased against Psi, that you're incapable of accepting anything else than your dogma.
If I had no idea how to deal with Psi, I probably wouldn't have gotten as far as I have, nor would I have won with 6 rookies against a fucking Academy Cruiser on base defense.
I'm biased against kludge mechanics that substitute player control with RNG, yes.
I'm done with this convo, especially since it's a complete derailment of the thread.
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OK, let's get back to this thread.
I really like your alpha chryssalid idea (even though it is a colossal randomfuck ;) )... when are you planning to implement it?
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OK, let's get back to this thread.
I really like your alpha chryssalid idea (even though it is a colossal randomfuck ;) )... when are you planning to implement it?
I'm not sure whether you're joking or being serious and adversarial despite my earlier explanation about the pending new stealth mechanics.
And I'll probably try it out once those mechanics (and the tools for countering stealth) are completed and implemented.
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I'm not sure whether you're joking or being serious and adversarial despite my earlier explanation about the pending new stealth mechanics.
And I'll probably try it out once those mechanics (and the tools for countering stealth) are completed and implemented.
OK, good luck then. Looking forward to it.
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@ Meridian: Assuming you meant that earnestly, great.
@ Arthanor: You may not have seen my reply due to the subsequent thread derailment, but it's there on the prior page.
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#1: I tackled it regardless. I'm not going to let my frustrations with a bullshit RNG based mechanic win.
You're beginning to appear hysterical. Calm your tits.
#2: Sniping and artillery are gamey? Boring is probably true, but if you know of a better way to tackle I/I, I'd like to hear it. As is no other approaches seem to work nearly as well, regardless of intent.
Yeah, because you KNOW that the AI is incapable of using indirect fire, smoke or snipers. So it is gamey, as in exploit-y. Sure, I don't have anything against exploits, every game has them, I just want to make camper's life even more miserable than it is (how many hours it takes for you to play a large mission?). So maybe some people will stop camping and wasting their valuable lifetime.
#3: It changes everything, because the proposed counters offered alongside the changes to invisibility increase your detection range such that finding the Chryssalids isn't nearly as tedious and miserable as Aye-Phoning your way around the map. I believe the default detection range for invisible units was said to be 3 tiles; the scanner items/armours or whatever could increase that to pretty much any range; I expect that in the final calculus they will help immensely in helping to counter invisibility without completely obviating the mechanic's tactical benefits.
Lemme use your style of argumentation. With such invis range on units with ranged weapons, you'll get randomfucked by their reaction fire. Or - if you employ super-detection - you will destroy them like babies. Where is the fun in 100% predictable result? Where is the skill? Where is improvisation? Really, go play chess, not wargames.
#4: Like I said, it's a question of tweaking the numbers really (resistances/health/armour values); I'm more interested in the concept of a giant ass heavy battle tank that needs to be flanked and outmaneuvered or it will fuck you up regardless of your tech/toys while being impervious to your normal countermeasures. There's no reason that can't be implemented well.
Sure, such units are both planned and already in (power armor, tank, etc). Easy-peasy, you don't need to teach me how to make a tank, bro.
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Something I think would be neat would be units that are functionaly indestructible(exceptional armor/resists/HP) except for a single low tech resist.
Replicators from Stargate premise low tech hasn't happened in forever when the unit was built.
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You're beginning to appear hysterical. Calm your tits.
There's a difference between being annoyed by psi and 'having trouble' with it. I resent the implication of the latter.
Yeah, because you KNOW that the AI is incapable of using indirect fire, smoke or snipers. So it is gamey, as in exploit-y. Sure, I don't have anything against exploits, every game has them, I just want to make camper's life even more miserable than it is (how many hours it takes for you to play a large mission?). So maybe some people will stop camping and wasting their valuable lifetime.
Using effective, and tried and true IRL tactics isn't gamey simply because the AI can't cope well with them; mass demolition is what Israel uses against Palestian fighters for example in lieu of exposing their troops to fire and IEDs which is effective in achieving their military objectives with minimal casualties (despite the averse longer term hearts and minds/political/ethical ramifications); likewise with Vimy Ridge; likewise with the Iraq War (which became a clusterfuck only during the occupation); so it is in Piratez/X-Com.
As for large missions, it generally doesn't take long unless there's a lot of sight/LoF blockers because of explosives, and even then if I feel like burning through even more explosives to demolish those obstacles wholesale, it will still go by relatively quickly.
What's the alternative anyways? Spamming smoke and then charging into melee? The fact is the optimal strategies are always going to crush the AI with minimal chance for it to retaliate/defend itself. X-Com is all about minimizing risk, and any strategy that takes on undue amounts is destined for failure long-term save maybe on the lower difficulties.
Lemme use your style of argumentation. With such invis range on units with ranged weapons, you'll get randomfucked by their reaction fire. Or - if you employ super-detection - you will destroy them like babies. Where is the fun in 100% predictable result? Where is the skill? Where is improvisation? Really, go play chess, not wargames.
Chryssalids (which we are discussing) sure are capable of reaction fire. As is, Ethereals are pretty bad for this, yes and force you to spam even more explosives and the Ayephone which is even more tedious and boring than the standard optimal strategies/SOP. By the way, achieving the happy balance between having to get too close and getting to detect from too far is achievable, and given how far away enemy units can see you, unless you're giving a unit close to regular viewing distance vs invisible targets with a counter item, RF is still going to be a problem, it's just that finding and killing invisible units won't be as hopelessly tedious.
Sure, such units are both planned and already in (power armor, tank, etc). Easy-peasy, you don't need to teach me how to make a tank, bro.
Current power armoured units and tanks are easily defeated with powerful explosives and weapons regardless of the striking angle, even if multiple hits/explosives are involved.
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Something I think would be neat would be units that are functionaly indestructible(exceptional armor/resists/HP) except for a single low tech resist.
Replicators from Stargate premise low tech hasn't happened in forever when the unit was built.
I don't think that would make sense in the Stellar Empire. I can understand say Energy Resistant, but Kinetic Resistant to say Gauss? I dunno how that would be possible. Also if such a unit with that ability were to exist I would want to convert it, or use it as armor for the gals which would mean I would then have super OP MLG stuff. I still want academy drones lol.
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I'm not sure whether you're joking or being serious and adversarial despite my earlier explanation about the pending new stealth mechanics.
And I'll probably try it out once those mechanics (and the tools for countering stealth) are completed and implemented.
If you wait a few days I may even implement your camouflage mechanics for the alpha chryssalid.
I have added the minimum needed features for the active camouflage (and a counter as well).
Feel free to mod the Chryssalid (should be just one line of code) and report back how they didn't randomfuck you ;)
More info: https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,4822.0.html
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That feature is pretty neat, and I am already considering applying it to units that use the loftemp hack, as I hate that mechanic.
The one drawback is the way reaction work (in a sort of exaggerated example):
Currently, let's say a normal chryssalid walks towards you, as soon as its reactions * TUs drop below yours, you take a snapshot, which drops your reactions * TUs below theirs. Since they are pretty far, your snapshot misses. Then they continue approaching until you get another snapshot in, then they reach you and you die.
With the new mechanic, the chryssalid walks towards you and you don't see it, so you do nothing. Then you finally notice it right in front of you and since you didn't shoot before, you still have enough TUs for 2 snap shots at point blank, which both hit and kill the beastie. You live. Camo didn't help..
What we need to complement this is a mechanic that reduces the amount of reaction fire done, something like:
sneaky: X , where default X is 0. Then in the computation, when being considered as a target for reaction fire, you get (reactions + sneaky) * TUs to compare to the enemy's reactions * TUs.
The reason to ask for this and not just buff reactions outright is that it allows to buff "offensive reactions" (your ability to not be fired upon when moving) without buffing "defensive reactions" (your ability to take a shot when others are moving). This allows you to make sneaky outfits (+sneaky but not reactions: you can move more safely and benefit from camo without what I described above, but you don't have better reflexes), as well as quick reflex outfits (buff reactions by +X, but sneaky -Y, so you react to enemies better, but you're not any harder to react to. Assassin outfit would be an example of a non-sneaky, quick reaction one) and obviously the stereotypical ninja (with just + reactions).
Edit: But seeing Yankes' post, it seems like it may be possible to adjust reactions in scripts? I'd have to look.
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Another possibility is having the Chryssalid (or other unit) count as being effectively further away for the purpose of calculating accuracy penalties in proportion to its stealth rating (offset by whatever detection rating the shooter has), simulating the difficulty of hitting a heavily camouflaged/difficult to see target.
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If you start going down that road you're wandering into xcom 2012 dice-roll combat. One of the beauties of oxc, and something even xenonauts ignored is the fact that what you're shooting at doesn't matter. Soldier X will always have x% chance to hit a target at any given distance.
Because if this is implement and I get lower accuracy for shooting at this chryssalid, why would I ever target the chryssalid? Why wouldn't I just target one tile behind it?
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If you start going down that road you're wandering into xcom 2012 dice-roll combat. One of the beauties of oxc, and something even xenonauts ignored is the fact that what you're shooting at doesn't matter. Soldier X will always have x% chance to hit a target at any given distance.
Because if this is implement and I get lower accuracy for shooting at this chryssalid, why would I ever target the chryssalid? Why wouldn't I just target one tile behind it?
The idea is primarily to mitigate the issues with effectively only triggering Reactions at close range as described by Arthanor which it does perfectly.
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If you start going down that road you're wandering into xcom 2012 dice-roll combat. One of the beauties of oxc, and something even xenonauts ignored is the fact that what you're shooting at doesn't matter.
Well, sadly, not quite. While it is hard to miss from 2-3 tiles away, the game will magically, improbably bend trajectories so you'll miss if the dice roll was bad. It does use the same retarded system as xcom 2012 of 'try to adjust trajectory for the dice roll' instead of a honest hitscan as used in Doom and other FPS games. That's why grates and fences are so much trouble - the game tries to calc a trajectory that hits in between the wires, instead of just aiming for the centre of mass. It still pays off in uncertain situations to target tile behind your intended target, and force-fire.
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I though it specifically didn't try to aim for the exposed part (not in a way that affects accuracy like XCOM 2012). I mean that was the whole argument with Volutar back in the day, wasn't it? He wanted to aim at center mass of the exposed target to make cover more useful instead of picking a trajectory closest to voxel center.
According to Sup:
https://openxcom.org/forum/index.php/topic,1856.msg17360.html#msg17360 - we don't roll hits and misses
And according to this:
https://github.com/SupSuper/OpenXcom/blob/518a651712235baf3596120590714859d3e8d91b/src/Battlescape/TileEngine.cpp#L459
The projectile still has to pass into that space. I can see when it's trying to draw the line it takes steps to find a trajectory that works, but according to accuracy.cpp what is visible isn't taken into considering when actually determining the projectile's trajectory. The engine finds a trajectory that "works", creates an ellipse around endpoint and picks a new endpoint within that ellipse. The trajectory is, indeed, a cone flattened on the z-axis with a bit of deviation added in to make sure that even shots above 110% (max) accuracy have a chance to miss. Then the projectile walks forward until it hits something. Am I misinterpreting the code?
/edit: grammar
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If it is so, then the system is glitchy (I know math, but I can't really read black magic, so can't say about the code). I'm saying from experience, that it DOES target the visible part of the object. Shooting trough grates with 100%+ accuracy usually ends with missing BOTH grate and the target. If there was a proper hitscan with distribution, OR non-glitchy engine, the shots should usually hit (and destroy) the grate.
But maybe that elipsoid distribution is to blame - it would explain, that, counter-logically, hitting anything vertically is very hard, and that kneeling behind a stone never helped anyone avoiding getting hit. The best way to use cover is to stand behind an engine-confusing obstacle, like Skyranger's ramp (ideally so the engine sees your body as multiple target areas). Doing so almost guarantees that you will get hit only by a wildly-missing, random shot.
AFAIK Volutar took a hike because, apparently, there was no place here for someone with his own, heretical ideas regarding trajectories. He wanted a clean, non-glitchy engine for calculating hitscan. Having that, it'd be possible to add a random spread to heart's content. Currently it makes no sense, since outcomes are quite random anyway - your bullet will fly where the engine wants it to, not where it was supposed to.
I tried to work this shit out with Falko, but he didn't get down to coding it, and then randomly disappeared - at least he left a wide assortment of great tools in his wake...
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So no chance of having the ballistics engine overhauled? It would be nice if projectiles could also over-penetrate and ricochet, and if explosions could create shrapnel.
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It would be great to have 'penetrating' projectiles like the Null Lance, or the Sectopod's Wrath Cannon from X-Com 2.
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Could probably be simulated by a weapon with rapid fire and no spread.
What I really want is the rallgun from Eraser. Not sure how to implement the X-ray scope.
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Could probably be simulated by a weapon with rapid fire and no spread.
What I really want is the rallgun from Eraser. Not sure how to implement the X-ray scope.
Stuff like that is what I was thinking; the Eraser gun is basically the Sniper Gauss, except the latter has no penetration.
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Ugh, now I'm all worked up about something I lack the programming skill to implement, and which nobody else appears to be working on. I hate it when this happens.
Xcom's system, which models the map in 3d dispite being a sprite based 2d game, would make an amazing ballistics sandbox if such features were implemented. Imagine not just bullets going through walls, but projectiles ricocheting and destroyed terrain fragmenting into shrapnel by explosions.
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Spartan Elite (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nKqD8anjyYjR7bWyjn-LUo2_69W2e0u7lHNUsSnhAn8/edit).
Basically peak humans pimped out with the very best Spartan gear/salvage (UFOpaedia/stat block in the link).
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Spartan Elite (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nKqD8anjyYjR7bWyjn-LUo2_69W2e0u7lHNUsSnhAn8/edit).
Basically peak humans pimped out with the very best Spartan gear/salvage (UFOpaedia/stat block in the link).
Already in the game, only a bit differently done and not pimped above Mercs level. But your backstory is interesting, it could be used for 'spartan fanatics' of sorts - not nearly as buffed stats but 100 Bravery due to subjecting themselves to a 98% suicidal ritual.
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Already in the game, only a bit differently done and not pimped above Mercs level. But your backstory is interesting, it could be used for 'spartan fanatics' of sorts - not nearly as buffed stats but 100 Bravery due to subjecting themselves to a 98% suicidal ritual.
Keep in mind that these are the maxed stats for an X-Com soldier, so they're within the bounds of humanity; peak humanity, as in the kind that basically lives and breathes warfare at the most elite level and survived a killmurderdeath gauntlet with basic arms and armour on a time limit.
Mercs still outshine these guys in terms of pure physical endurance and strength as they should due to their physiological advantages (that said I'm surprised the Commandos have _only_ 75 STR with peak humanity featuring 70).
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Keep in mind that these are the maxed stats for an X-Com soldier, so they're within the bounds of humanity; peak humanity, as in the kind that basically lives and breathes warfare at the most elite level and survived a killmurderdeath gauntlet with basic arms and armour on a time limit.
Such a ritual would make the survivors very lucky, not very skilled. Some could even say that the highest chance of survival in such a ritual would belong to manipulators, since, obviously, ability to convince others to team up (even if you intend to ditch them later), or taunt/lead others into traps, would increase your chances tremendously; so it'd be a great (if supremely vasteful) tool to get skilled politicians, not soldiers. Unless the ritual is always undertaken alone.
Also to know about warfare, you need to fight wars. Spartans are very militaristic and well trained, but defensive/cautious in nature; they live in hidden forts and their main goal is survival, not war. They're not like mercs who are constantly fighting various enemies (and usually surviving to gain experience).
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Such a ritual would make the survivors very lucky, not very skilled. Some could even say that the highest chance of survival in such a ritual would belong to manipulators, since, obviously, ability to convince others to team up (even if you intend to ditch them later), or taunt/lead others into traps, would increase your chances tremendously; so it'd be a great (if supremely vasteful) tool to get skilled politicians, not soldiers. Unless the ritual is always undertaken alone.
Also to know about warfare, you need to fight wars. Spartans are very militaristic and well trained, but defensive/cautious in nature; they live in hidden forts and their main goal is survival, not war. They're not like mercs who are constantly fighting various enemies (and usually surviving to gain experience).
I see it as more of a solo venture for precisely the reason that they want to test the warrior's mettle, so there's no 'Hunger Games/Battle Royale' component. A great deal of luck is involved for sure, but so is immense martial prowess; it's essentially death poker. Mind that it's voluntary, and only experienced, skilled volunteers are permitted to attempt the maze. Subsequently, those that survive are issued the very best gear; combined with their experience, superior training and typical Spartan caution, deploying them only when crucial/necessary, they tend to survive and further develop much like the Mercs. Naturally the whole ritual stems from a misinterpretation and much filling in of the blanks of a scrap of old-world military documentation describing (in rather partial detail thanks to the weathering of said documentation) the SEAL 'Hell Week' which they hold in almost religious accord (much like the 'Rules of Engagement').
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Hmm... I see the only solution would be to create a 'schism' amongst spartans, with normal Spartans being as currently described, but some of the forts taking the warrior's creed to the extreme ('true' Spartans?), living off constant raids, and having various hardcore units and hardcore rituals like you propose. Because there is a place for such a faction, and current Spartans do not fully fit the bill.
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Sounds good to me. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehf1QGaFWxk) Darwinist/hyper militarized Spartans would be badass.
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Like the Nietzschean in Andromeda? The spartan already reminded me of them, but with a weak "American apocalypse fearing fortificators" where real Nietzscheans would be on the offensive instead of cowering in forts. (Spoken like a nietzschean for effect ;))
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Not familiar with them, but having looked them up, probably similar views with respect to their stance on self-improvement, trial by fire, development through conflict and survival of the fittest albeit with much more collectivist/communal values and a rigid chain of command/deference to superiors typical for the Spartans, with everything being ultimately for the corps as opposed to the self (which in turn takes care of its constituents, and provides for them according to their rank and contribution to the whole); in otherwords, common core military creeds albeit taken to the eleventh with a Darwinian focus. Each man is a cog in a well-oiled machine that strives to be the best damn cog it can be through constant tempering and battle.
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That's less edgy, more idealist. Super dedicated, super hardcore, super community driven doesn't tend to happen (except maybe in fantasy lawful good knightly orders). I like the "stick together and defend what we have" spartans we have now, making their community strong by virtue of their sticking together. But a "hardcore train as hard as possible" splinter group would fit well being individualistic, competitive people, where the strength of the community is more the strength of the individuals and a minimal collaboration to get the job done while everyone tries to be the best of the lot.
That'd also explain why they splintered from the "orthodox spartans": they didn't value community as much and got kicked out. The two can't coexist. Whereas a "hardcore yet community driven" branch could well coexist with spartans, since they're spartans+1.
Any ways, just throwing ideas around for Dioxine. I trust him with the implementation!
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Pretty much every well-disciplined modern military (which is what the militarized Spartans model themselves after) advocates rigourous improvement of the self with devotion to the whole and the corps above all.
Where the Spartan subchapter would splinter and break with the orthodoxy per Dioxine is in their emphasis on militarism, sacrifice and conflict. Conservative survivalists set on isolation vs aggressive militarists set on conquest is a pretty substantial divide; Randian/individualist elements don't have to enter into it in order to create a substantial schism: the survivalists raid occasionally and strictly as necessary, the militarists do it often as a rite of passage to purge the weak/unworthy and a mode of honing their skills. Even outside of the latter's rituals which the former undoubtedly finds wasteful and unnecessary, there's plenty to drive them apart. That said, the two types of Spartans may not necessarily be driven to hate each other, and might even work together every now and then, though I can see an obvious mutual contempt forming: militarists think the survivalists are weak cowards, and the survivalists look at the militarists as reckless fools, with each feeling they embody the 'true' Spartan creed.
A prime example of such a divide would be the Brotherhood of Steel: the traditional chapter seeking conservation of the old ways and isolationism vs the splinter that wanted to expand (including through aggressive militarism/exchanging protection and policing for supplies and soldiers) by tapping the wasteland for personnel (ala Fallout 3, Fallout Tactics).
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Mercs, and star empire aliens are the toughest encounters for me. Generally Power armored units are slow, and lack the mobility to mess me up. But Mercs with their epic reaction fire, and the alien invisibility make me go nope nope nope when I encounter em more often than not.
Spartan Power armor would be interesting to see as a unit. Even references to the Brotherhood of Steel would be nice. Hidden in their underground bunkers.
Though I feel as though the Nazi's have taken up that kind of role.
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Who ever thought about Pokémon Elite Units?
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Spartan Militants (faction profile) (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k6dj95GPH4ofh6mMhINrx3B9XE6aU0fA-B9atf16AYc/edit)
Mercenary Battlemage (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dOTi7EBwXhEmTVQYV9_bg9rY808f7hsT36-XmhZYQlc/edit?usp=sharing)