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Author Topic: Faction Elite Units  (Read 10722 times)

Offline Meridian

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2016, 08:27:29 am »
Did you lose units due to Psi RNG? That's called getting randomfucked.

No, I didn't lose due to "Psi RNG"... I lost due to Psi (and a tactical or situational mistake).

It is possible to calculate EXACTLY, which unit(s) can be targeted by alien Psi (and in which order) at the end of each turn by using pen and paper... there is NOTHING random about it, it is a deterministic algorithm. Read the source code, if you don't believe me.

What's random is the power of the attack... which is the same as when they shoot at you. Do you say you lost because of "Accuracy RNG" or "Damage RNG" when they kill you with heavy plasma?

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2016, 08:43:19 am »
No, I didn't lose due to "Psi RNG"... I lost due to Psi (and a tactical or situational mistake).

Distinction without a difference.

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t is possible to calculate EXACTLY, which unit(s) can be targeted by alien Psi (and in which order) at the end of each turn by using pen and paper... there is NOTHING random about it, it is a deterministic algorithm. Read the source code, if you don't believe me.

I'm sure it is if you know exactly who they've seen, and track it meticulously.

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That's random is the power of the attack... which is the same as when they shoot at you. Do you say you lost because of "Accuracy RNG" or "Damage RNG" when they kill you with heavy plasma?

I generally don't get shot at, or put myself in a position to be shot at. If you are being shot at, you have already failed and committed an egregious mistake (unless you're robocopping).

Offline Meridian

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2016, 08:54:45 am »
You know, you're a hopeless case. I pity you.

I generally don't get shot at, or put myself in a position to be shot at. If you are being shot at, you have already failed and committed an egregious mistake (unless you're robocopping).

I generally don't get mindcontrolled, or put myself in a position to be mindcontrolled. If you are being mindcontrolled, you have already failed and committed an egregious mistake (unless you're robocopping).
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 08:57:14 am by Meridian »

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2016, 08:58:43 am »
I generally don't get mindcontrolled, or put myself in a position to be mindcontrolled. If you are being mindcontrolled, you have already failed and committed an egregious mistake (unless you're robocopping).

Good luck with that before you get a roster of 55+ VD STR units; you'll need it.

Look mate, you're not going to convince me that a mechanic whose success is predicated on random chance, doesn't respect LoS and which has no truly reliable counter per Dioxide's own admission until after you've got your own pimped out Psi or apparently a full set of poison gas weaponry and poison gas immunity armour is 'fair' or 'good design'. It's just not happening, I'm sorry. At best it's a bad kludge to compensate for exploitable AI.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 09:13:06 am by Surrealistik »

Offline Meridian

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2016, 09:18:06 am »
Good luck with that before you get a roster of 55+ VD STR units; you'll need it.

Look mate, you're not going to convince me that a mechanic whose success is predicated on random chance, doesn't respect LoS and which has no truly reliable counter per Dioxide's own admission until after you've got your own pimped out Psi or apparently a full set of poison gas weaponry and poison gas immunity armour is 'fair' or 'good design'. It's just not happening, I'm sorry.

I don't need luck, I know how to play this game. And the rest is entertainment.

No need to be sorry, I already realized you can't be helped. I am just amazed how you ignore facts I tried to explain to you. I just told you that there is nothing random about the psi targeting mechanic, it's 100% deterministic (a provable fact)... and one post later you write "a mechanic whose success is predicated on random chance"? There is no reliable (100%) counter to most of things in the game, isn't 98% enough? We've given you 7 options how to counter psi with such success rate. I have even offered you to show you how it is done if you give me a save... I can't do more than that mate. I'm sorry.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2016, 09:53:18 am »
I don't need luck, I know how to play this game. And the rest is entertainment.

No need to be sorry, I already realized you can't be helped. I am just amazed how you ignore facts I tried to explain to you. I just told you that there is nothing random about the psi targeting mechanic, it's 100% deterministic (a provable fact)... and one post later you write "a mechanic whose success is predicated on random chance"? There is no reliable (100%) counter to most of things in the game, isn't 98% enough? We've given you 7 options how to counter psi with such success rate. I have even offered you to show you how it is done if you give me a save... I can't do more than that mate. I'm sorry.

It's 100% deterministic in terms of _targeting_ if you actually track with perfect precision who is spotted, and who is not, and the exact distances to the soldiers they've spotted, etc. Tell me Meridian, do you track this information with such exacting detail every mission? Every other mission? At all? Is this remotely feasible? In practice you won't know who gets targeted until it happens, and who gets targeted can change depending on relative distances, and whether they get subverted, etc...

The counters that do exist outside of effectively shutting Psi down as described earlier are not 98% reliable either (dat arbitrary number) and I've already shown you/Dioxide the flaws with each of them, while also employing them in my games to minimize the fallout. You mistake me for someone who doesn't know how to deal with Psi, and you are simply wrong. I know how to deal with this bullshit, and I do, and I win regardless of the occasional trooper that ends up eating it because the RNG gods decided it was her day to die, and her day to go streaking with her 90 TUs and 100 Energy in an inconvenient direction; the problem is I still get fucked regardless by a shit mechanic that I am powerless to truly stop, and that no amount of skill serves as complete proof against, until I got my psi-juggernauts.

You can go on pretending a bad kludge to compensate for bad AI is more than that by all means, but you're only fooling yourself.



Offline Meridian

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2016, 10:22:43 am »
It's 100% deterministic in terms of _targeting_ if you actually track with perfect precision who is spotted, and who is not, and the exact distances to the soldiers they've spotted, etc. Tell me Meridian, do you track this information with such exacting detail every mission? Every other mission? At all? Is this remotely feasible? In practice you won't know who gets targeted until it happens, and who gets targeted can change depending on relative distances, and whether they get subverted, etc...

Sometimes I track it, but only as side information, and not very accurately. Once you learn how to use lightning rods, how to spot, kill and/or hide/disarm... you won't need this tracking anymore, since it becomes obvious who will get targeted; if anyone at all.

You mistake me for someone who doesn't know how to deal with Psi, and you are simply wrong.

I think you mistake yourself for someone who knows how to deal with Psi.
You obviously have a lot of experience with the game, but you are so incredibly biased against Psi, that you're incapable of accepting anything else than your dogma.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2016, 10:35:41 am »
Sometimes I track it, but only as side information, and not very accurately. Once you learn how to use lightning rods, how to spot, kill and/or hide/disarm... you won't need this tracking anymore, since it becomes obvious who will get targeted; if anyone at all.

I use lightning rods and it's heuristic at best.

Why? Because Psi scales with distance, and relative distances change. Because the lightning rod gets MCed and then they switch to an unexpected new target, and surprise surprise, sometimes that target gets MCed (or hell, even panicked) and things go to shit.

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I think you mistake yourself for someone who knows how to deal with Psi.
You obviously have a lot of experience with the game, but you are so incredibly biased against Psi, that you're incapable of accepting anything else than your dogma.

If I had no idea how to deal with Psi, I probably wouldn't have gotten as far as I have, nor would I have won with 6 rookies against a fucking Academy Cruiser on base defense.

I'm biased against kludge mechanics that substitute player control with RNG, yes.

I'm done with this convo, especially since it's a complete derailment of the thread.

Offline Meridian

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2016, 10:42:51 am »
OK, let's get back to this thread.

I really like your alpha chryssalid idea (even though it is a colossal randomfuck ;) )... when are you planning to implement it?

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2016, 11:03:57 am »
OK, let's get back to this thread.

I really like your alpha chryssalid idea (even though it is a colossal randomfuck ;) )... when are you planning to implement it?

I'm not sure whether you're joking or being serious and adversarial despite my earlier explanation about the pending new stealth mechanics.

And I'll probably try it out once those mechanics (and the tools for countering stealth) are completed and implemented.

Offline Meridian

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2016, 01:01:19 pm »
I'm not sure whether you're joking or being serious and adversarial despite my earlier explanation about the pending new stealth mechanics.

And I'll probably try it out once those mechanics (and the tools for countering stealth) are completed and implemented.

OK, good luck then. Looking forward to it.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2016, 07:30:11 pm »
@ Meridian: Assuming you meant that earnestly, great.

@ Arthanor: You may not have seen my reply due to the subsequent thread derailment, but it's there on the prior page.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2016, 09:05:33 pm »
#1: I tackled it regardless. I'm not going to let my frustrations with a bullshit RNG based mechanic win.

You're beginning to appear hysterical. Calm your tits.

#2: Sniping and artillery are gamey? Boring is probably true, but if you know of a better way to tackle I/I, I'd like to hear it. As is no other approaches seem to work nearly as well, regardless of intent.

Yeah, because you KNOW that the AI is incapable of using indirect fire, smoke or snipers. So it is gamey, as in exploit-y. Sure, I don't have anything against exploits, every game has them, I just want to make camper's life even more miserable than it is (how many hours it takes for you to play a large mission?). So maybe some people will stop camping and wasting their valuable lifetime.

#3: It changes everything, because the proposed counters offered alongside the changes to invisibility increase your detection range such that finding the Chryssalids isn't nearly as tedious and miserable as Aye-Phoning your way around the map. I believe the default detection range for invisible units was said to be 3 tiles; the scanner items/armours or whatever could increase that to pretty much any range; I expect that in the final calculus they will help immensely in helping to counter invisibility without completely obviating the mechanic's tactical benefits.

Lemme use your style of argumentation. With such invis range on units with ranged weapons, you'll get randomfucked by their reaction fire. Or - if you employ super-detection - you will destroy them like babies. Where is the fun in 100% predictable result? Where is the skill? Where is improvisation? Really, go play chess, not wargames.

#4: Like I said, it's a question of tweaking the numbers really (resistances/health/armour values); I'm more interested in the concept of a giant ass heavy battle tank that needs to be flanked and outmaneuvered or it will fuck you up regardless of your tech/toys while being impervious to your normal countermeasures. There's no reason that can't be implemented well.

Sure, such units are both planned and already in (power armor, tank, etc). Easy-peasy, you don't need to teach me how to make a tank, bro.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2016, 09:07:45 pm by Dioxine »

Offline legionof1

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2016, 04:04:28 am »
Something I think would be neat would be units that are functionaly indestructible(exceptional armor/resists/HP) except for a single low tech resist.

Replicators from Stargate premise low tech hasn't happened in forever when the unit was built.

Offline Surrealistik

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Re: Faction Elite Units
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2016, 07:25:16 am »
You're beginning to appear hysterical. Calm your tits.

There's a difference between being annoyed by psi and 'having trouble' with it. I resent the implication of the latter.

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Yeah, because you KNOW that the AI is incapable of using indirect fire, smoke or snipers. So it is gamey, as in exploit-y. Sure, I don't have anything against exploits, every game has them, I just want to make camper's life even more miserable than it is (how many hours it takes for you to play a large mission?). So maybe some people will stop camping and wasting their valuable lifetime.

Using effective, and tried and true IRL tactics isn't gamey simply because the AI can't cope well with them; mass demolition is what Israel uses against Palestian fighters for example in lieu of exposing their troops to fire and IEDs which is effective in achieving their military objectives with minimal casualties (despite the averse longer term hearts and minds/political/ethical ramifications); likewise with Vimy Ridge; likewise with the Iraq War (which became a clusterfuck only during the occupation); so it is in Piratez/X-Com.

As for large missions, it generally doesn't take long unless there's a lot of sight/LoF blockers because of explosives, and even then if I feel like burning through even more explosives to demolish those obstacles wholesale, it will still go by relatively quickly.

What's the alternative anyways? Spamming smoke and then charging into melee? The fact is the optimal strategies are always going to crush the AI with minimal chance for it to retaliate/defend itself. X-Com is all about minimizing risk, and any strategy that takes on undue amounts is destined for failure long-term save maybe on the lower difficulties.

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Lemme use your style of argumentation. With such invis range on units with ranged weapons, you'll get randomfucked by their reaction fire. Or - if you employ super-detection - you will destroy them like babies. Where is the fun in 100% predictable result? Where is the skill? Where is improvisation? Really, go play chess, not wargames.

Chryssalids (which we are discussing) sure are capable of reaction fire. As is, Ethereals are pretty bad for this, yes and force you to spam even more explosives and the Ayephone which is even more tedious and boring than the standard optimal strategies/SOP. By the way, achieving the happy balance between having to get too close and getting to detect from too far is achievable, and given how far away enemy units can see you, unless you're giving a unit close to regular viewing distance vs invisible targets with a counter item, RF is still going to be a problem, it's just that finding and killing invisible units won't be as hopelessly tedious.

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Sure, such units are both planned and already in (power armor, tank, etc). Easy-peasy, you don't need to teach me how to make a tank, bro.

Current power armoured units and tanks are easily defeated with powerful explosives and weapons regardless of the striking angle, even if multiple hits/explosives are involved.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 07:40:53 am by Surrealistik »