Author Topic: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?  (Read 5139 times)

Offline Mattdo

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2016, 01:14:45 pm »
One-handed penalty = weight of item?

Offline Meridian

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2016, 01:22:01 pm »
One-handed penalty = weight of item?

Which item?
The one being used, or the one in the other hand, or both?

Offline AncientSion

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2016, 01:25:27 pm »
If it is is working like that, it should probably be combination of both values instead of only considering one.

i.e. heavy machine gun in main Hand, light smg in off Hand -> Penalty = main Hand weight + off Hand weight / 2. Or mainhand.weight /3 + off Hand weight / 2. ?

instead of only considering one or the other, the combination of Equipment is what should be considered in my opinion.

Offline Dioxine

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2016, 01:33:51 pm »
I believe the stock Sniper Rifle can be fired while holding stuff in the off-Hand.

It cannot, dude.

And I'm not really interested in varying that penalty for other weapons... 15% or nothing is good enough for now (I'd like to be able to change the default penalty, though!). More interesting would be varying kneeling bonus on weapon-to-weapon basis. But these are low priority I'd say.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 01:38:16 pm by Dioxine »

Offline AncientSion

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2016, 01:43:44 pm »
It cannot, dude.

And I'm not really interested in varying that penalty for other weapons... 15% or nothing is good enough for now (I'd like to be able to change the default penalty, though!). More interesting would be varying kneeling bonus on weapon-to-weapon basis. But these are low priority I'd say.

Okay, i did remember wrong.
Considering Diox isnt interested in this functionality and it is his mod, i say Forget it, unless Solaris wants it, Meridian.

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2016, 02:25:55 pm »
Details man, details :)

Well, yeah :) It's more for some specific weapons I've wanted to see in a long time than for all/most weapons. I was mostly inspired by the ACM mod in UFO: Aftershock, where for example you could only fire the Barrett when prone.

For example, if I hold an SMG in one hand and Electroflare / Pistol / Rifle / Heavy Gauss in the other hand:
1. does penalty depend on SMG?
2. or on Electroflare / Pistol / Rifle / Heavy Gauss?
3. or on both? and if so how?

It's defined by weapon (if defined at all). So if you have two weapons with this value customized, it applies to the weapon you are shooting with.

One-handed penalty = weight of item?

I thought about it too, but it wouldn't really serve the purpose, as weight is not the most important factor. This would have to be defined by weapon.

Anyway, I won't make further demands about it here. If it's in, I'll use it to some degree, if it's not, I'll live. :P

Offline Meridian

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2016, 02:39:44 pm »
OK, so the winner is:

1. default kneeling bonus (+15%) will be globally configurable
2. kneeling bonus can be overridden by the weapon being used (other weapon has no effect)

3. default 1-handed penalty (-20%) will be globally configurable
4. 1-handed penalty can be overridden by the weapon being used (other weapon has no effect, strength has no effect, phase of the moon also has no effect)

Offline Dioxine

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2016, 03:02:35 pm »
I like it!

EDIT: also can you make sure there is no accuracy bonus for kneeling towards any melee attacks?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 03:33:16 pm by Dioxine »

Offline Meridian

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2016, 03:41:47 pm »
I like it!

EDIT: also can you make sure there is no accuracy bonus for kneeling towards any melee attacks?

Melee attacks and also throwing (not shooting from bows; real throwing) don't benefit from kneeling... also in vanilla.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 03:44:58 pm by Meridian »

Offline yrizoud

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2016, 03:48:02 pm »
Solarius : Even in vanilla UFO, the setup time of heavier weapons is already taken into account (and game-balanced) by the high TU% cost.
Remember that if a unit has enough time to move, fire, and move again in same turn, the character is actually shooting while running.
So if you're really serious about modeling real-world weapons which are normally fired from a static position (sniper rifle with biped, machine guns), first you should set up the firing time to 100% TU. Then, you'll see you don't even need a special case about crouching : You plan your move so that you end up in the right place, right angle, and crouched. This is the "normal" firing stance, and weapon accuracy is designed for it (ie. sniper rifle : 125%. 150% or beyond is ultra-OP) . If you're 4 TU short, you'll skip the crouch : the unit will be able to shoot anyway, with this slight penalty which mimics the "hurried-ness", and it's good.
And flying units can not crouch in air, so they have the mandatory -13% malus (/115%), it makes sense (no stable support) and counter-balances the OP-ness of air superiority.


Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2016, 04:29:15 pm »
Solarius : Even in vanilla UFO, the setup time of heavier weapons is already taken into account (and game-balanced) by the high TU% cost.
Remember that if a unit has enough time to move, fire, and move again in same turn, the character is actually shooting while running.
(...)

Yes, you are right of course, but in the present moment it doesn't matter if you're already kneeling or not - TU cost is the same.

And flying units can not crouch in air, so they have the mandatory -13% malus (/115%), it makes sense (no stable support) and counter-balances the OP-ness of air superiority.

That's perfectly fine I guess. Though it would be nice if the bonus was customizable too. [If you fire a minigun midair, don't forget to send us a postcard from wherever you end up. :) ]

Offline Arthanor

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2016, 07:36:00 pm »
Who says the trust from the grav-pack can only counteract gravity and not recoil? Granted, you would bounce around a bit more than firmly braced on solid ground.

Also, weapons with 100% TU cost for firing would be very hard to use. Even machine guns and sniper rifles can be frustrating. XCom maps are too busy and firefights to short to have vantage points that remain viable over multiple turns, except high up in the air.

Offline yrizoud

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2016, 09:29:22 pm »
XCom maps are too busy and firefights to short to have vantage points that remain viable over multiple turns, except high up in the air.
I agree. As a result, if you stubbornly apply the same tactics and teams compositions in terrains where they're completely unsuitable, you lose, and it's good gameplay.
Also, weapons with 100% TU cost for firing would be very hard to use. Even machine guns and sniper rifles can be frustrating.
It's a difficulty which requires some planning and some gambling. But it can be less frustrating, for example in terrains like forest (well-known to have non-obvious trajectories in 3D). Since you get only one chance per character to be in good position, if a target is covered, it's covered, somebody else needs to take the shot. You don't try a spot forward, check fire, crouch, check fire, get up, move to the left, check fire, and then rage because you're 2TU short.

Offline Arthanor

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2016, 10:18:50 pm »
Well, I agree that terrains making you adjust tactics is a good thing, but weapons have to be good in some terrain (and the more terrains the better). A weapon with 100% TU cost would be a very unreliable one. As I said before, even sniper/HMG like costs which allow you to move a tiny bit are often difficult to use (but powerful enough to warrant using, of course!). More than that, you have a weapon that you can't fire and a soldier or more that's useless for the whole battle, which is no fun.

Making a weapon require 100% TUs is a 95% sure way of making it not worth it, the 5% being it having an OP effect so that you don't really care about terrain (big and powerful blase, of enough powerful shots to blast through cover). To me, the HMG falls in this category for ~the first year, as it is has power and shots to blast cover and take out armoured enemies better than any other ranged weapon you have.

I agree. As a result, if you stubbornly apply the same tactics and teams compositions in terrains where they're completely unsuitable, you lose, and it's good gameplay.
Do you reequip squads depending on geoscape texture? You don't know which terrain you will see until you are past the point of equipping the squad, so your only shot is looking at texture (or switching weapons during battle?). I tend to have a versatile loadout and use it all the time, and HMG/Sniper rifles are falling from grace now that I have mobile weapons with similar power (Auto-Cannons ftw!).

Quote
It's a difficulty which requires some planning and some gambling. But it can be less frustrating, for example in terrains like forest (well-known to have non-obvious trajectories in 3D). Since you get only one chance per character to be in good position, if a target is covered, it's covered, somebody else needs to take the shot. You don't try a spot forward, check fire, crouch, check fire, get up, move to the left, check fire, and then rage because you're 2TU short.
Crouching when looking for a LoF is asking to fail, even with fast weapons. Find a spot with one soldier without crouching, then move off so others can rush to that spot and take subsequent shots (and crouch IF they have enough TUs to get there, crouch, shot and get away). Successive "No LoF" messages, whether you try to move or not are frustrating. I remember laughing during Meridian's LP when it occurred repeatedly, but when it happens to me it's not so much fun.. Viewers are such cruel people!

Offline AncientSion

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2016, 11:31:45 pm »
One thing i dont understand how is how you somtimes get the blinking red icon, i.e. visual contact with enemy, but when you try to take a shot, it gives the flashy error.
Is that a bug or what is the reason for having visual contact, yet being unable to mow them down ?