OpenXcom Forum
Modding => Released Mods => XPiratez => Topic started by: AncientSion on May 17, 2016, 03:46:07 pm
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Just a minor question.
A conventional machine gun can be used with only 1 hand, as can a conventional sniper rifle.
An auto-cannon requires 2 hands, as does a RPG or Pipe of Doom.
I kinda fail to understand why you can use MG and SR while holding a spiked mace...Is it a bug, error or just my imagination going wild ?
- thanks
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Its not a bug. Its by design.
There are three categories of weapons:
One handed.
Those that need two hands for optimal performance.
Those that Must Use two hands to be fired.
The middle category experiences a penalty to accuracy when used one-handed. Over all, the design allows more flexibility. (And anyone who has seen Rambo knows that, Of Course You Can Fire Machine Guns One-Handed.)
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Okay.
Using a MG 1 handed is one thing, using a Sniper Rifle 1 handed is an entirely diffferent thing.
Can you elaborate on the acc penalty ?
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It's not impossible to fire a sniper rifle one-handed - google it if you want. (Especially if you're a mutant with superhuman strength.)
If you want to see the accuracy penalty, just look at the predicted accuracy while holding another object in your other hand, then drop the other object and see how it changes. It's pretty small.
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I can see how you can FIRE a Sniper Rifle one handed.
But actually hitting anything but your foot, buddy or a wall ? Nigh impossible.
Ill look into it. The penalty should be severe regardless of MG or SR in my opinion ;)
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Yes, it would be great to be able to set 1-handed accuracy penalty by weapon. But it's not possible at the moment.
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Mh if there is already a static penalty in the rule set, i should be trivial to add a non-static one that is drawn from a weapon variable ?
Ill ask Meridian to take a look at this thread, maybe he likes the feature and deems it worthy.
thanks for answering.
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So, what is the use case for this?
Do you want to have 5% penalty for one weapon and 6% for another?
Makes no difference IMO...
Or do you want to make penalty 50-90%?
If so, just make it true-two-handed, it's easier to understand, easier to implement and makes more sense in general (nobody will use a weapon with 50% penalty).
EDIT: btw. sniper rifle is already true-2-handed, you must have the other hand free to shoot... or did I miss something?
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The question is not about operating a heavy rifle with one arm, the actual situation is that the second hand is encumbered. Honestly, if all there is in the second hand is a grenade or bandage, I can understand the penalty is not very high.
IMO the "2-handed only" is fully justified for things that very clearly need full usage of all fingers, like bows and crossbows, and two-handed melee weapons.
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I believe the stock Sniper Rifle can be fired while holding stuff in the off-Hand.
In regards to the penalty, i have to say i didnt manage to check how big the Penalty for holding stuff in the off-Hand actually is.
However, it is my impression that firing a Machine Gun while holding a Mace! should induce a severe Penalty, surely not only 5% or 6%. But more like 20 % or more.
In regards to the Sniper Rifle, a potential Penalty should be considerable. In fact, a sniper rifle, in my opinion, should probably be true 2-handed.
Also, in my opinion, even a Shotgun should not be able to be fired 1-handed without a Penalty, though this one should be only small.
I believe the only weapons that should be able to be considered true 1-one handed should be pistols. Even true SMG (i.e. Blackmarsh) should have a small (10?) Penalty, while a UZI or Scorp should be 1handed.
However, of coure this is only my opinion and if Diox and/or you dont agree or deem is not worth the hassle, so be it.
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Normal stock sniper rifle is true-2-handed already.
I'll gladly implement any request of this sort, it's easy... IF any modder is interested.
Let me know (and provide details too, not just rough idea).
(Btw. I'm not interested in it myself, so I will add it only if someone actually wants to use it.)
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I'm happy enough with the current system. But I am sometimes a bit unsure as to which weapons have a 1h accuracy penalty. I sometimes drop things just to see if the accuracy of my weapon will change.
I'd like if the action menu would signal to me when an accuracy penalty is being applied, perhaps with a different coloured background or something like that.
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Meridian has added a color-coded indicator:
If there's is a little green "2", the weapon has a penalty when the other hand is not free
If there's is a little red "2", the weaponcan not be operated when the other hand is not free
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I'd like to see custom penalty for one-handed use of two-handed weapon, because in some cases it's clearly a worse decision than others (Battle Rifle vs. Blackmarch SMG, for example). I believe I've requested it already. But I don't think it's really vital.
A feature I think is more important is unhardcoding the kneeling bonus by weapon. I can't see why you'd get a big accuracy improvement on a pistol, while it could be enormous in stationary weapon systems (if you want to use a HMG, you'd better get into firing position first).
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I'd like to see custom penalty for one-handed use of two-handed weapon, because in some cases it's clearly a worse decision than others (Battle Rifle vs. Blackmarch SMG, for example). I believe I've requested it already. But I don't think it's really vital.
A feature I think is more important is unhardcoding the kneeling bonus by weapon. I can't see why you'd get a big accuracy improvement on a pistol, while it could be enormous in stationary weapon systems (if you want to use a HMG, you'd better get into firing position first).
Details man, details :)
For example, if I hold an SMG in one hand and Electroflare / Pistol / Rifle / Heavy Gauss in the other hand:
1. does penalty depend on SMG?
2. or on Electroflare / Pistol / Rifle / Heavy Gauss?
3. or on both? and if so how?
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One-handed penalty = weight of item?
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One-handed penalty = weight of item?
Which item?
The one being used, or the one in the other hand, or both?
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If it is is working like that, it should probably be combination of both values instead of only considering one.
i.e. heavy machine gun in main Hand, light smg in off Hand -> Penalty = main Hand weight + off Hand weight / 2. Or mainhand.weight /3 + off Hand weight / 2. ?
instead of only considering one or the other, the combination of Equipment is what should be considered in my opinion.
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I believe the stock Sniper Rifle can be fired while holding stuff in the off-Hand.
It cannot, dude.
And I'm not really interested in varying that penalty for other weapons... 15% or nothing is good enough for now (I'd like to be able to change the default penalty, though!). More interesting would be varying kneeling bonus on weapon-to-weapon basis. But these are low priority I'd say.
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It cannot, dude.
And I'm not really interested in varying that penalty for other weapons... 15% or nothing is good enough for now (I'd like to be able to change the default penalty, though!). More interesting would be varying kneeling bonus on weapon-to-weapon basis. But these are low priority I'd say.
Okay, i did remember wrong.
Considering Diox isnt interested in this functionality and it is his mod, i say Forget it, unless Solaris wants it, Meridian.
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Details man, details :)
Well, yeah :) It's more for some specific weapons I've wanted to see in a long time than for all/most weapons. I was mostly inspired by the ACM mod in UFO: Aftershock, where for example you could only fire the Barrett when prone.
For example, if I hold an SMG in one hand and Electroflare / Pistol / Rifle / Heavy Gauss in the other hand:
1. does penalty depend on SMG?
2. or on Electroflare / Pistol / Rifle / Heavy Gauss?
3. or on both? and if so how?
It's defined by weapon (if defined at all). So if you have two weapons with this value customized, it applies to the weapon you are shooting with.
One-handed penalty = weight of item?
I thought about it too, but it wouldn't really serve the purpose, as weight is not the most important factor. This would have to be defined by weapon.
Anyway, I won't make further demands about it here. If it's in, I'll use it to some degree, if it's not, I'll live. :P
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OK, so the winner is:
1. default kneeling bonus (+15%) will be globally configurable
2. kneeling bonus can be overridden by the weapon being used (other weapon has no effect)
3. default 1-handed penalty (-20%) will be globally configurable
4. 1-handed penalty can be overridden by the weapon being used (other weapon has no effect, strength has no effect, phase of the moon also has no effect)
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I like it!
EDIT: also can you make sure there is no accuracy bonus for kneeling towards any melee attacks?
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I like it!
EDIT: also can you make sure there is no accuracy bonus for kneeling towards any melee attacks?
Melee attacks and also throwing (not shooting from bows; real throwing) don't benefit from kneeling... also in vanilla.
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Solarius : Even in vanilla UFO, the setup time of heavier weapons is already taken into account (and game-balanced) by the high TU% cost.
Remember that if a unit has enough time to move, fire, and move again in same turn, the character is actually shooting while running.
So if you're really serious about modeling real-world weapons which are normally fired from a static position (sniper rifle with biped, machine guns), first you should set up the firing time to 100% TU. Then, you'll see you don't even need a special case about crouching : You plan your move so that you end up in the right place, right angle, and crouched. This is the "normal" firing stance, and weapon accuracy is designed for it (ie. sniper rifle : 125%. 150% or beyond is ultra-OP) . If you're 4 TU short, you'll skip the crouch : the unit will be able to shoot anyway, with this slight penalty which mimics the "hurried-ness", and it's good.
And flying units can not crouch in air, so they have the mandatory -13% malus (/115%), it makes sense (no stable support) and counter-balances the OP-ness of air superiority.
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Solarius : Even in vanilla UFO, the setup time of heavier weapons is already taken into account (and game-balanced) by the high TU% cost.
Remember that if a unit has enough time to move, fire, and move again in same turn, the character is actually shooting while running.
(...)
Yes, you are right of course, but in the present moment it doesn't matter if you're already kneeling or not - TU cost is the same.
And flying units can not crouch in air, so they have the mandatory -13% malus (/115%), it makes sense (no stable support) and counter-balances the OP-ness of air superiority.
That's perfectly fine I guess. Though it would be nice if the bonus was customizable too. [If you fire a minigun midair, don't forget to send us a postcard from wherever you end up. :) ]
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Who says the trust from the grav-pack can only counteract gravity and not recoil? Granted, you would bounce around a bit more than firmly braced on solid ground.
Also, weapons with 100% TU cost for firing would be very hard to use. Even machine guns and sniper rifles can be frustrating. XCom maps are too busy and firefights to short to have vantage points that remain viable over multiple turns, except high up in the air.
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XCom maps are too busy and firefights to short to have vantage points that remain viable over multiple turns, except high up in the air.
I agree. As a result, if you stubbornly apply the same tactics and teams compositions in terrains where they're completely unsuitable, you lose, and it's good gameplay.
Also, weapons with 100% TU cost for firing would be very hard to use. Even machine guns and sniper rifles can be frustrating.
It's a difficulty which requires some planning and some gambling. But it can be less frustrating, for example in terrains like forest (well-known to have non-obvious trajectories in 3D). Since you get only one chance per character to be in good position, if a target is covered, it's covered, somebody else needs to take the shot. You don't try a spot forward, check fire, crouch, check fire, get up, move to the left, check fire, and then rage because you're 2TU short.
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Well, I agree that terrains making you adjust tactics is a good thing, but weapons have to be good in some terrain (and the more terrains the better). A weapon with 100% TU cost would be a very unreliable one. As I said before, even sniper/HMG like costs which allow you to move a tiny bit are often difficult to use (but powerful enough to warrant using, of course!). More than that, you have a weapon that you can't fire and a soldier or more that's useless for the whole battle, which is no fun.
Making a weapon require 100% TUs is a 95% sure way of making it not worth it, the 5% being it having an OP effect so that you don't really care about terrain (big and powerful blase, of enough powerful shots to blast through cover). To me, the HMG falls in this category for ~the first year, as it is has power and shots to blast cover and take out armoured enemies better than any other ranged weapon you have.
I agree. As a result, if you stubbornly apply the same tactics and teams compositions in terrains where they're completely unsuitable, you lose, and it's good gameplay.
Do you reequip squads depending on geoscape texture? You don't know which terrain you will see until you are past the point of equipping the squad, so your only shot is looking at texture (or switching weapons during battle?). I tend to have a versatile loadout and use it all the time, and HMG/Sniper rifles are falling from grace now that I have mobile weapons with similar power (Auto-Cannons ftw!).
It's a difficulty which requires some planning and some gambling. But it can be less frustrating, for example in terrains like forest (well-known to have non-obvious trajectories in 3D). Since you get only one chance per character to be in good position, if a target is covered, it's covered, somebody else needs to take the shot. You don't try a spot forward, check fire, crouch, check fire, get up, move to the left, check fire, and then rage because you're 2TU short.
Crouching when looking for a LoF is asking to fail, even with fast weapons. Find a spot with one soldier without crouching, then move off so others can rush to that spot and take subsequent shots (and crouch IF they have enough TUs to get there, crouch, shot and get away). Successive "No LoF" messages, whether you try to move or not are frustrating. I remember laughing during Meridian's LP when it occurred repeatedly, but when it happens to me it's not so much fun.. Viewers are such cruel people!
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One thing i dont understand how is how you somtimes get the blinking red icon, i.e. visual contact with enemy, but when you try to take a shot, it gives the flashy error.
Is that a bug or what is the reason for having visual contact, yet being unable to mow them down ?
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Visual contact is measured from the head of the soldier, where the eyes are, while firing is measured closer to the waist, where the gun is. It's an oddity that the little red flag shows "Line of Sight" but what you actually care about is "Line of Fire" for the guns. Something like a static red icon for LoS and blinking red for LoF would be a nice way to distinguish both at a glace.
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I tend to have a versatile loadout and use it all the time
I agree, it's not fun to re-equip often, and especially many people at a time.
In my tests I kept the weapon barely heavier than a rifle. The one or two designated snipers were using pistols while moving, and a few other guys were carrying a spare one in backpack. In maps like terror / farm, if a guy cleared a building and ended upstairs with a fitting viewpoint, somebody at ground level could throw him one.
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A 100% TU cost weapon is actually not that much of a problem when you know how to use the flag...
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Eh, the flag is useful, but it also is a close to 100% TUs "weapon". I used it in few battles to get snipers in position and able to shoot on T1, but after that, the little bit of extra mobility for a group of snipers + 1 flag gal versus 1 more weapon gal just didn't seem to be much better. And I had to move all my other gals out of the way first, otherwise they'd lose a chunk of energy for nothing (which, with some armor, is annoying to lose).
In the end, it felt like trying to exploit a mechanic or solve an equation, the later of which I do routinely for work, not like playing a game, so I quit. The flag is cool and quirky, but it's not for me.
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OK, so the winner is:
1. default kneeling bonus (+15%) will be globally configurable
2. kneeling bonus can be overridden by the weapon being used (other weapon has no effect)
3. default 1-handed penalty (-20%) will be globally configurable
4. 1-handed penalty can be overridden by the weapon being used (other weapon has no effect, strength has no effect, phase of the moon also has no effect)
Usage:
kneelBonusGlobal: 200 #100% bonus
oneHandedPenaltyGlobal: 50 #50% penalty
items:
- type: STR_HARPOON
kneelBonus: 300 #200% bonus
oneHandedPenalty: 10 #90% penalty
20% bonus is "120" = 100+20
20% penalty is "80" = 100 - 20