Author Topic: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?  (Read 5157 times)

Offline AncientSion

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2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« on: May 17, 2016, 03:46:07 pm »
Just a minor question.

A conventional machine gun can be used with only 1 hand, as can a conventional sniper rifle.
An auto-cannon requires 2 hands, as does a RPG or Pipe of Doom.


I kinda fail to understand why you can use MG and SR while holding a spiked mace...Is it a bug, error or just my imagination going wild ?

- thanks

Offline ivandogovich

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2016, 04:21:32 pm »
Its not a bug.  Its by design.

There are three categories of weapons:

One handed.
Those that need two hands for optimal performance.
Those that Must Use two hands to be fired.

The middle category experiences a penalty to accuracy when used one-handed.  Over all, the design allows more flexibility.  (And anyone who has seen Rambo knows that, Of Course You Can Fire Machine Guns One-Handed.)

Offline AncientSion

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2016, 04:34:48 pm »
Okay.
Using a MG 1 handed is one thing, using a Sniper Rifle 1 handed is an entirely diffferent thing.

Can you elaborate on the acc penalty ?

Offline Mattdo

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2016, 04:39:28 pm »
It's not impossible to fire a sniper rifle one-handed - google it if you want. (Especially if you're a mutant with superhuman strength.)

If you want to see the accuracy penalty, just look at the predicted accuracy while holding another object in your other hand, then drop the other object and see how it changes. It's pretty small.

Offline AncientSion

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2016, 04:42:12 pm »
I can see how you can FIRE a Sniper Rifle one handed.
But actually hitting anything but your foot, buddy or a wall ? Nigh impossible.


Ill look into it. The penalty should be severe regardless of MG or SR in my opinion ;)

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2016, 05:34:05 pm »
Yes, it would be great to be able to set 1-handed accuracy penalty by weapon. But it's not possible at the moment.

Offline AncientSion

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2016, 07:14:06 pm »
Mh if there is already a static penalty in the rule set, i should be trivial to add a non-static one that is drawn from a weapon variable ?
Ill ask Meridian to take a look at this thread, maybe he likes the feature and deems it worthy.

thanks for answering.

Offline Meridian

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2016, 11:43:48 am »
So, what is the use case for this?

Do you want to have 5% penalty for one weapon and 6% for another?
Makes no difference IMO...

Or do you want to make penalty 50-90%?
If so, just make it true-two-handed, it's easier to understand, easier to implement and makes more sense in general (nobody will use a weapon with 50% penalty).

EDIT: btw. sniper rifle is already true-2-handed, you must have the other hand free to shoot... or did I miss something?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 11:46:32 am by Meridian »

Offline yrizoud

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2016, 12:13:47 pm »
The question is not about operating a heavy rifle with one arm, the actual situation is that the second hand is encumbered. Honestly, if all there is in the second hand is a grenade or bandage, I can understand the penalty is not very high.
IMO the "2-handed only" is fully justified for things that very clearly need full usage of all fingers, like bows and crossbows, and two-handed melee weapons.

Offline AncientSion

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2016, 12:20:12 pm »
I believe the stock Sniper Rifle can be fired while holding stuff in the off-Hand.

In regards to the penalty, i have to say i didnt manage to check how big the Penalty for holding stuff in the off-Hand actually is.
However, it is my impression that firing a Machine Gun while holding a Mace! should induce a severe Penalty, surely not only 5% or 6%. But more like 20 % or more.
In regards to the Sniper Rifle, a potential Penalty should be considerable. In fact, a sniper rifle, in my opinion, should probably be true 2-handed.

Also, in my opinion, even a Shotgun should not be able to be fired 1-handed without a Penalty, though this one should be only small.
I believe the only weapons that should be able to be considered true 1-one handed should be pistols. Even true SMG (i.e. Blackmarsh) should have a small (10?) Penalty, while a UZI or Scorp should be 1handed.

However, of coure this is only my opinion and if Diox and/or you dont agree or deem is not worth the hassle, so be it.

Offline Meridian

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2016, 12:25:21 pm »
Normal stock sniper rifle is true-2-handed already.

I'll gladly implement any request of this sort, it's easy... IF any modder is interested.
Let me know (and provide details too, not just rough idea).
(Btw. I'm not interested in it myself, so I will add it only if someone actually wants to use it.)

Offline karadoc

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2016, 12:40:03 pm »
I'm happy enough with the current system. But I am sometimes a bit unsure as to which weapons have a 1h accuracy penalty. I sometimes drop things just to see if the accuracy of my weapon will change.

I'd like if the action menu would signal to me when an accuracy penalty is being applied, perhaps with a different coloured background or something like that.

Offline yrizoud

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2016, 12:45:03 pm »
Meridian has added a color-coded indicator:
If there's is a little green "2", the weapon has a penalty when the other hand is not free
If there's is a little red "2", the weaponcan not be operated when the other hand is not free

Offline Solarius Scorch

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2016, 12:51:48 pm »
I'd like to see custom penalty for one-handed use of two-handed weapon, because in some cases it's clearly a worse decision than others (Battle Rifle vs. Blackmarch SMG, for example). I believe I've requested it already. But I don't think it's really vital.
A feature I think is more important is unhardcoding the kneeling bonus by weapon. I can't see why you'd get a big accuracy improvement on a pistol, while it could be enormous in stationary weapon systems (if you want to use a HMG, you'd better get into firing position first).
« Last Edit: May 18, 2016, 12:53:43 pm by Solarius Scorch »

Offline Meridian

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Re: 2h weapons and why some are not 2h at all ?
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2016, 01:03:48 pm »
I'd like to see custom penalty for one-handed use of two-handed weapon, because in some cases it's clearly a worse decision than others (Battle Rifle vs. Blackmarch SMG, for example). I believe I've requested it already. But I don't think it's really vital.
A feature I think is more important is unhardcoding the kneeling bonus by weapon. I can't see why you'd get a big accuracy improvement on a pistol, while it could be enormous in stationary weapon systems (if you want to use a HMG, you'd better get into firing position first).

Details man, details :)

For example, if I hold an SMG in one hand and Electroflare / Pistol / Rifle / Heavy Gauss in the other hand:
1. does penalty depend on SMG?
2. or on Electroflare / Pistol / Rifle / Heavy Gauss?
3. or on both? and if so how?