Re: The X-Com Files - 3.5: Whispers In The Dark

[Chuckebaby]

The issue is that money is quite busted at the moment, so not an ideal time to implement game defining features on top of the..

Not sure I understand ? For you personally you mean ?

I find after year 1, you have money to play with and by the time the invasion begins, you should have even more.
This would allow late game research to be sped up.

It literally took me months and months to research all the weapon acquisitions (and ability to build/buy), while then still trying to research bigger projects like interrogations, specialty weapons.

I actually enjoyed it because it lengthened the game a bit but in the meantime doing the same type missions over and over again (just waiting for big research to open up) led me to building more and more research facility's. Which can also be tedious at times.

A good example is I am Jan 1997 (1 month into the game). I have 2 million dollars and can not do anything with it except buy Glocks and shotgun ammo.

Everyone plays this game a bit different. Some build 5 bases, some only 2. There never seems to be one shoe that fits all here. Hence my suggestion.

[Moth_Of_Decay]

I had many similar ideas, not realized due to what the engine allowed back then. Now it would be easier to do (albeit still hacky; see the "an unshakable enemy hidden in an inaccessible location" clause), but I think having a whole mission with a battle map would be awkward. I'd rather have a fe3ature where you simply fly there and there's a popup with description, like an event; but I don't think this is viable. This is why I made some events.

Would it be cool with you if I start a thread theory-crafting new mission ideas? I think exploring various gimmicky ideas would be an interesting and potentially fruitful discussion, but I don't want to clog up this thread or come off as a backseat dev.

[Juku121]

purchasing ...

Since both research and manufacture are both effected purely by spending money on personnel, facilities and new bases, what you're essentially asking for is not the ability to 'buy' research (because that already exists), but to do so on the cheap. Not a fan.

If you're waiting for research due to projects taking time to complete, chances are you're putting too few people on these projects. Late game research is sped up by building every research facility under the sun in multiple bases. If you're using only two bases, you're essentially gimping your progress for... convenience? Simplicity? I don't think the mod should bend over backwards so that 'two-base runs' are viable for anyone but the most hardcore players seeking a challenge.

Basically, this seems like a request for an easier 'difficulty level', and I think it'd be more elegantly solved by making a submod that reduces project times, personnel costs and facility construction times. Maybe allow for more people to be stuffed into one facility. A 1000-scientist workshop, and each of them costs 1K, or something. Not "I fucked up, can I buy myself out of this?"

The score bit is the only thing you really can't buy, and I for one appreciate that you actually have to get your ducks in a row to succeed and that there are fail states in the strategy layer. Perhaps some of the mission tedium could be short-circuited in certain ways - possibly ask OXCE devs for a Xenonauts-style 'bomb the UFO' for cash and score but no loot. Or more 'intercept this to avoid the mission' bits.

There never seems to be one shoe that fits all here.

Trying to make a game (or mod) that pleases everyone frequently leads to pleasing no-one.


OTOH, you can safely ignore anything I say. Because I can and will change or circumvent the mod if it gets on my nerves, instead of trying to tough it out.

[Chuckebaby]

Since both research and manufacture are both effected purely by spending money on personnel, facilities and new bases, what you're essentially asking for is not the ability to 'buy' research (because that already exists), but to do so on the cheap. Not a fan.

If you're waiting for research due to projects taking time to complete, chances are you're putting too few people on these projects. Late game research is sped up by building every research facility under the sun in multiple bases. If you're using only two bases, you're essentially gimping your progress for... convenience? Simplicity? I don't think the mod should bend over backwards so that 'two-base runs' are viable for anyone but the most hardcore players seeking a challenge.

Basically, this seems like a request for an easier 'difficulty level', and I think it'd be more elegantly solved by making a submod that reduces project times, personnel costs and facility construction times. Maybe allow for more people to be stuffed into one facility. A 1000-scientist workshop, and each of them costs 1K, or something. Not "I fucked up, can I buy myself out of this?"

The score bit is the only thing you really can't buy, and I for one appreciate that you actually have to get your ducks in a row to succeed and that there are fail states in the strategy layer. Perhaps some of the mission tedium could be short-circuited in certain ways - possibly ask OXCE devs for a Xenonauts-style 'bomb the UFO' for cash and score but no loot. Or more 'intercept this to avoid the mission' bits.
Trying to make a game (or mod) that pleases everyone frequently leads to pleasing no-one.


OTOH, you can safely ignore anything I say. Because I can and will change or circumvent the mod if it gets on my nerves, instead of trying to tough it out.

More bases requires more soldiers and arguably more experienced soldiers. Unless you plan on losing a slew of newbies each base attack.
Even the best plasma defenses, fusion ball, etc. is not 100% guaranteed to stop base attacks.

Base attacks in XCF are also messy. These guys love to blow up all kinds of shit. They focus on crippling your facility's as the last few hide.
That means when the crying is done, you're left rebuilding new facility's from scratch. Not like in Vanilla when the Aliens were only coming to collect warm bodies.

So I agree having more bases is the way to go, it just requires better soldiers, better defenses and more babysitting.
Outsourcing research, manufacturing and score isn't all that bad in my opinion. But as I said, everyone plays differently. I don't play like you and you wont play like me. I think that is one of the attractions of the game honestly.

OTOH, you can safely ignore anything I say. Because I can and will change or circumvent the mod if it gets on my nerves, instead of trying to tough it out.

 

Same here my friend

[Juku121]

More bases requires more soldiers and arguably more experienced soldiers. Unless you plan on losing a slew of newbies each base attack.

Not sure what's wrong with that.

You can also have more tanks (repairable unless vaporised) and throw in some transformations to bulk up the newbies. And build your research bases away from areas of UFO activity and not use them for interception until your defences are up. Build Mind Shields as well.

Even the best plasma defenses, fusion ball, etc. is not 100% guaranteed to stop base attacks.

No, but 3 Fusion Ball Defences and a Grav Shield are pretty damn near.


I don't really know why 'lessAliensDuringBaseDefense' got disabled - the changelog says "Shooting at UFOs no longer decreases their crews (for lore reasons)" yet I don't recall any discussion about those - but you can also re-enable that. Then the aliens get to the 'as the last few hide' phase a lot quicker.


Edit: Come to think of it, maybe Solarius could also take a clue from Reaver and play around with UFO base detection radii and the mind shield formula?

Edit2: Now manufacturing, that indeed has some pretty weird costs sometimes. But that isn't really solved by adding extra sources of manufacturing points.

[Stone Lake]

This is just laziness on every level. You can just lose the base and rebuild it if you're too lazy to defend it, attacks are not that often.

And you aren't even required to do that in the first place. There's enough research power in a single base to quickly cover important topics and the rest is either gated or just fluff.

All that extra research would do for you is make you research fluff faster.

I actually suspect that limited scientist count is designed in to prevent inexperienced commanders from staffing 200 scientists and eat themselves from house and home while being too stubborn to fire them.

I think what would be helpful is a feature that would help you to differ important topics from fluff. Like, basic color coding. For example, green - stuff leading to new medkits, blue - crafts, black - promotions, etc. Or its functional equivalent, piratez-style exclamation marks.
But still, not helpful enough for the amount of work it would take to implement.

[Akamashi]

I am surprised to read that the bases need air defense. With the proper construction of the base, the protection of the base is always an easy walk. Base defense is not a challenge, it is a safe pumping of soldiers and an easy hunt for enemy commanders.

[Juku121]

With the proper construction of the base...

Not always possible once the base grows large enough. I have too many useful things to build in there instead of setting up kill corridors and automated defence turrets. And aliens can still wreck some base modules if a Blaster goes awry.

Not to mention Ethereal attacks. Nothing 'safe' about those unless you screen every single soldier everywhere.

[Akamashi]

Not always possible once the base grows large enough. I have too many useful things to build in there instead of setting up kill corridors and automated defence turrets. And aliens can still wreck some base modules if a Blaster goes awry.

Not to mention Ethereal attacks. Nothing 'safe' about those unless you screen every single soldier everywhere.

When the base becomes large, this is an excuse to build another base. I have a separate base at war with ethereals, where I send agents with high psi. They only attack her. No problem.

[Juku121]

Sadly, I cannot build a 9th base. All the others are already full, or becoming full.

And it's nice that the Ethereals are cooperating with you, but there's nothing preventing them from doing a random scan and happening upon a base that's not prepared. Not particularly likely, of course, since retaliations aren't that common and Ethereal ones even less so.

[Stone Lake]

I am surprised to read that the bases need air defense.

Main bases don't. Secondary research, manufacturing and radar bases - why not? Definitely less effort to build some defenses than to buy dogs, rookies and prepare equipment for them.

With the proper construction of the base, the protection of the base is always an easy walk.

Depends on the enemy. Sectopods at promo 2-3 tech can pose significant challenge for inexperienced commander. I think that's mostly removed now, though.

[Chuckebaby]

You guys bring up some good points. Juku's Tank suggestion is also something I haven't explored enough (those and A.I. units). I do rely on tanks and A.I. units but not as heavily as I probably should. This game is kind of designed to exploit certain weaponry. Maybe I have played it more like vanilla than I should which is nearly impossible when you think about it.

However, that's just my perspective and those are the things I've experienced anyway.

If there is anything I have learned from this forum it is... Be a bit suborn but listen and trust the people here. You are all very smart and I've learned a lot from you.

[Akamashi]

Sadly, I cannot build a 9th base. All the others are already full, or becoming full.

And it's nice that the Ethereals are cooperating with you, but there's nothing preventing them from doing a random scan and happening upon a base that's not prepared. Not particularly likely, of course, since retaliations aren't that common and Ethereal ones even less so.

This already looks like a sort of deviation. 9 full bases? I have 6, of which only one is built up not strong enough for defense due to the fact that there are too many things built on it. If I were to play again, I would make do with four maximally protected bases.

Between 2 and 3 promos, my bases were attacked several times by cults when there were only 2 trainees on the defensive. And each time it was just a meat grinder in a few moves, the surrender of a whole bunch and a very effective pumping of fighters.
Sectopods are already a post-invasion game. I had a mutant attack at an early stage of the invasion. There were only 6 agents on the base. The building and shrapnel were very much affected here. But it was necessary to rebuild half of the base, because the fighting unfolded in earnest.
I remind you. I play the Ironman.

[Juku121]

8 bases, since that's the limit. I never said they're undermanned, three are full strike bases with the latest tech and high-tier troopers, and all the rest have some sort of garrison.

How do you have global radar, interception and timely strike team transport with only four bases? Especially before the invasion starts.

Between 2 and 3 promos, my bases were attacked several times by cults...

I've never gotten a cult to attack me. Probably because I kill manors about as quickly as they spawn. I don't think there are any other sources of cult retaliation?

Anyway, cult base assaults are an entirely different ball game from alien base attacks.

I had a mutant attack at an early stage of the invasion.

What's that? Dagonites?

I remind you. I play the Ironman.

How is he doing against you?

[Stone Lake]

I've never gotten a cult to attack me. Probably because I kill manors about as quickly as they spawn. I don't think there are any other sources of cult retaliation?

Same, didn't get attacked by a cult once (or anyone up to year 4, really). I think it's about intercepting their strike crafts. If you have some air game, they won't ever get to you. Can't intercept battleship at full speed, sadly.

The building and shrapnel were very much affected here. But it was necessary to rebuild half of the base, because the fighting unfolded in earnest.

Doesn't sound like an "easy" defense.

But overall, yeah, 4-6 experienced guys is plenty against most invaders.
Or most post-invasion encounters, really.

Maybe next time I'll try playing 3-man teams or something. Commend stacking really allows you to create monstrosities.